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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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2078 posts found
  Hyanmen

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4924

12/27/09 3:52:02 AM#141
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr
Originally posted by Hyanmen

I could build groups that are inferior to soloing, but I don't like being inferior.

I'd question this statement as it applies to WoW.

I solo quite a lot, and there are numerous situations where I'm forced to be careful. It can be when I'm playing a class that doesn't do well against multiple enemies and in a situation where I may get swamped. It can simply be when attempting a quest that is (numerically) a tad above me characters ability to handle.

Sometimes I die. Sometimes I have to run. Sometimes I take a beating and have to use consumables to get myself back in fighting shape. Certain classes really don't solo well.

I've also noticed that soloers outlevel content rather quickly. This means that I often end up doing "green" quests, where the mob kills give reduced XP. I also have a character that I'm duoing with a guildmate; we don't outlevel content but seem to progres at a much faster pace than I do solo.

That said, if your preference is for group grinding, then yeah .. WoW doesn't cater to you at all.

Yeah, it's not that I hate soloing, but I just seem to hit a wall on it after like, 30 levels.. and am too bored to continue. Dunno why. It's the reason I never got too far in WoW though.

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  Hyanmen

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4924

12/27/09 3:58:19 AM#142
Originally posted by chrisel

 

What is your problem??

This happened BEFORE your reply! Reality check; You ARE a liar! You posted untrue things about me without proving it. Well, dunno what world you are living in, but in the real world that is actually what liars do: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie[/url]

On top of this you act "offended" because I compare this behavior to a rambling man. Oh dear. Want some cheese to all that whine?

Talk about twisting and turning. What are you after here? To provoke and incite flaming? Well actually, I probably shouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Actually, you are giving me plenty of reasons to avoid any further discussion with you, cause I have no idea what you are trying to express me/us here. This is far out.

I am glad the MMO's have reduced the catering to group-fanatics. Personally I find the biggest reason to stay away from MMO's with forced grouping is to be avoiding persons like you. It is definately true that the more solo content an MMO have the better the community is.

 

I'd like to ask, what is Your problem?

Letting one sentence get in the way of otherwise fine argument. You've said stupid things in this thread before, but I haven't backed up either way.

Now we can continue having a discussion about me, but I'd rather discuss the topic at hand. And for that I had a perfectly good argument going earlier, so if you want to continue the post is there. If not, at least stop with that "holier than thou" attitude, it's dumb.

You are not here for provoking and flaming, talking about group-"fanatics" like you do? Even in your sig you have provoking statement. Pot, meet the kettle..

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  Teiman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/29/08
Posts: 1328

12/27/09 10:26:45 AM#143

 Soloers have killed the genre. It was a coop system with roleplaying, now is singleplayer game with a monlty fee, but as a singleplayer games the "MMO" part make so the game must be generic and trivial, there can't be world changes, etc..  so most MMORPG games are boring and pointless games, most RPG games are better at RP.

The genre is dead, a beatifull thing is DEAD, and we have to thanks the soloers. 

  User Deleted
12/27/09 12:35:44 PM#144

Someone call the whaaaambulance! Seems like some group-fanatic died from sorrow...

From joke to revolver though:

Funnily enough, theres no evidence that the MMO genre is 'dead' or 'degenerating'. In fact, everything is pointing to the opposite. The MMO genre is healthier than ever, and it also provides more fun than ever before. If this have cost some group-fanatic's life, well so be it. If it will cost some more, well, I could care less. The less group-fanatics & 'old-school' MMO'ers around, the better MMO community there is.

I feel a great joy in my heart when I read all the despair from the group-fanatics here. This looks real good for the future of the MMO's! The more you whine, the more you show that solo content is needed.

Please; more whine please. Your tears are excellent polish for my mighty Retribution Paladin's armor that soloes his way through everything!

  Polishbat

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 15

12/27/09 5:52:54 PM#145

I think the original essence of the MMO was about true multiplayer.. MULTI-PLAYER.  yes we all have to solo and you cant find a group 24/7 but i still like and prefer group play, its fun.  I love how everyone compares everything to WoW.. WoW did this best, WoW did that..WOWOWOWOWOW.

 

WoW had some good features, but they didnt create the mold, blizzard simply expanded on whats already been going on, added a nice instance feature and a pretty game world.  Now In a previous post it said something about how WoW did the grouping perfectly.  I disagree, i didnt play alot, but played enough to get 40 and raid, and saw where the general direction was going.  I dont agree with having to raid as much as you do for the gear.  You go with 24 or 40 people now and you have to raid and raid and raid to get your turn for one piece of gear.. time dump anyone??  you betcha.

 

Diablo was and still is a great game, and blizzard had a good concept, make alot of gear that drops randomly and go fight for it.   It keeps you wanting more because you know there is better gear and always something to strive for.  They packaged that idea with an MMO, and now we have WoW.  However, one main difference is Diablo has, and hopefully never will be setup like grouping/raiding is in WoW.

  Tarka

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/07
Posts: 1673

Free speech is a right, common sense is a duty.

12/27/09 6:07:22 PM#146

Its always amusing to watch people justify the need to enforce grouping by falling back on the inaccurate interpretation of the word "Multi-player".  Let us take a moment to review the word again:   Multi-player. Look it up and one finds that it is defined as meaning multiple players playing same game at the same time. That is it, nothing else.  No mention or implication of grouping, soloing or anything.  It's only the "old school" games that enforced grouping because the devs didn't have the time nor the imagination to provide enough content for each individual player.  Please guys, stop using this as a justification for wanting more grouping and less soloing.  It's an inaccurate justification.

Besides, solo'ers aren't to blame for a lack of grouping in games.  They are just making use of the facilities that the devs have given them.  It's not their fault that certain individuals who crave only grouping can't find groups. Such people should blame the devs for not having the imagination or insight to provide MMO's with the necessary encouragement for people to WANT to group.  And I'm not just talking about implementing a difference in the potency of items obtained by the different playstyles.  There are other ways to encourage each of them.

I'm willing to bet that if the devs suddenly removed soloing from certain MMO's, then there wouldn't actually be a proportional increase in grouping actvitity.  In fact, I bet that MMO populations would probably show a marked decrease, because those games wouldn't be as much fun to as many people.  At this point, some might say "well thats fine by me, what's your point?"  Well think what would happen if such a decrease meant the demise of your beloved MMO because not enough people are playing it due to the stubborn attitude of the devs.

  karat76

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/06
Posts: 998

Greatest threat to society is letting casualties of puberty reproduce.

12/27/09 6:32:09 PM#147

 MMOS are epic fail if they are just for groups. Really who wants to group just to gather crafting materials. There is nothing wrong with some solo content. Honestly with all the people in mmos now there is more and more reason to solo. The games are filled with people I really don't want to associate with in game or real life. I log on to my game look for a group to do something if nothing is going on I want to do i go do some solo stuff or log on an alt. Problem I have when i do pugs at least in WoW and when i tried Coh was people talking about doing drugs, getting drunk or having sex and they would have names like Ipwnurmom and noidntfngheal..   I don't mind doing single group content but outside of pvp or rvr warfare I see no reason for raids.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

12/27/09 11:59:13 PM#148
Originally posted by Tarka 

I'm willing to bet that if the devs suddenly removed soloing from certain MMO's, then there wouldn't actually be a proportional increase in grouping actvitity.  In fact, I bet that MMO populations would probably show a marked decrease, because those games wouldn't be as much fun to as many people.  At this point, some might say "well thats fine by me, what's your point?"  Well think what would happen if such a decrease meant the demise of your beloved MMO because not enough people are playing it due to the stubborn attitude of the devs.

 

I don't want soloing removed. Especially for things like resource gathering. I just want better rewards and encouragements to grouping. Such as group suggested quest lines, group experience bonuses and dungeon experience bonuses. Not one quest at the end of a chain needing a group, but the whole chain from start to finish. Exclusive group content is good too. Making grouping effective as a leveling tool, not just a dungeon crawl. While I would love a game with a heavy group focus, there will always be soloing avenues. There are a lot of games with solo focus, why can't us groupers get a chance? Too many group  encouragements make soloers whine the game isn't solo friendly.

  madseend

Novice Member

Joined: 12/28/09
Posts: 5

www.afterworld.ru

12/28/09 6:00:24 AM#149

For me the best game is Afterworld, it is good to play solo but when you are in a society there are allways people willing to join in a little hunting or pvp fun :D oh and for the ones not in a society there are also allways peeps who want to join in some fun ;)

  User Deleted
12/28/09 7:38:51 PM#150

 A free mmorpg more based on solo? :D

Any?

  Robsolf

Elite Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 3958

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

12/29/09 8:21:40 AM#151
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

I have two opinions on this.

The first is that the vocal minorities at either extreme of the "group - solo" spectrum need to stop believing that they have a right to dictate the playstyles of other people. I pay my subscription fee, so I make the decisions on how I choose to spend my time in-game.

I'm sure most people feel the same.

The second is that these same people need to accept that their preferences are niche, and as such will not be catered for in the majority of MMOs no matter how bitterly they complain about it on forums, or how vehemently they belittle the "mainstream" preferences and playstyles.

 

How many threads have you seen start up where a solo player attacks group players for their playstyle preference?  In my experience, I've seen NONE.

On the other hand, this board is inundated with groupies attacking solo'ers and questioning why they play MMO's in the first place, as though enjoying solo content = hating group content.  So I'd rethink your suggestion that each side bears equal emnity toward the other.  This certainly is not the case on this board.  Solo players want to play the way they want to play, and groupies want to insult them for it.

But there is a reason for this, and the reason is simply that games are becoming more and more solo friendly.  Devs are beginning to understand that most people prefer to game like they live their lives; about 70-80% on their own while grouping together for something fun.  People don't go to the grocery store in a group, drive to work in a group, often don't even work in a group.  We don't usually come home to eat dinner in a group, watch TV in a group, go to sleep in a group.

But some fun, special things we like to do in a group.  We do them and have a good time.  And whether we do things solo or in a group, we prefer to do them in a community where we have the choice to be alone or group with others.  Most "solo-friendly" games provide that choice, while "group oriented" games do not.

 

 

  Tervvo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/08
Posts: 1

12/29/09 9:16:43 AM#152

 I play mostly solo with a bit of grouping if someone needs an extra to fill out the group.

Its just this simple, whether others like it or not, I enjoy playing solo with other players around.

It doesn't matter if others cannot get their heads around that or not.

I enjoy it so I do it.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4732

12/29/09 9:48:29 AM#153

OMG we dont need a sticky for this it will never end. :D

  Archemorous

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/05/09
Posts: 203

12/29/09 9:50:31 AM#154
Originally posted by Scot

OMG we dont need a sticky for this it will never end. :D

 

My only hope is that this argument will loop itself into a coma.

  Robsolf

Elite Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 3958

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

12/29/09 9:54:18 AM#155
Originally posted by Scot

OMG we dont need a sticky for this it will never end. :D


If not this thread, some groupie will just come along and create a new one:

"The TREWTH:  solow peeple R retartidd"

  User Deleted
12/29/09 10:00:38 AM#156
Originally posted by Robsolf

How many threads have you seen start up where a solo player attacks group players for their playstyle preference?  In my experience, I've seen NONE.


 

chrisel. While I'm not sure if he's started a thread, literally all of his 300+ postings were entirely 'solo rulz, groupies diaf'. There's guilt of flaming on both sides of the fence, painting it any other way is rather useless.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16594

12/29/09 10:10:51 AM#157
Originally posted by Robsolf

 

How many threads have you seen start up where a solo player attacks group players for their playstyle preference?  In my experience, I've seen NONE.

On the other hand, this board is inundated with groupies attacking solo'ers and questioning why they play MMO's in the first place, as though enjoying solo content = hating group content.  So I'd rethink your suggestion that each side bears equal emnity toward the other.  This certainly is not the case on this board.  Solo players want to play the way they want to play, and groupies want to insult them for it.

But there is a reason for this, and the reason is simply that games are becoming more and more solo friendly.  Devs are beginning to understand that most people prefer to game like they live their lives; about 70-80% on their own while grouping together for something fun.  People don't go to the grocery store in a group, drive to work in a group, often don't even work in a group.  We don't usually come home to eat dinner in a group, watch TV in a group, go to sleep in a group.

But some fun, special things we like to do in a group.  We do them and have a good time.  And whether we do things solo or in a group, we prefer to do them in a community where we have the choice to be alone or group with others.  Most "solo-friendly" games provide that choice, while "group oriented" games do not.

 


 

I think you are pretty much spot on. though I would disagree in that there probably are people who eat and watch t.v. in a group. Some call them familes ; )

But I've never met a soloer who begrudged others their choice to group or who didn't even like to group up on occasion with like-mined people.

My thought is that some people require the idea of an opposition in order to strengthen their argument which is why some people believe that soloers are against people who group. It's just a ridiculous notion.

However, one thing that I believe is correct is that there are players who will moan and complain when the game is entirely not soloable. Not that one can't get to cap solo but that there is a place they can't get to solo or that there are solo quests that offer better rewards.

I think it's ok to have group quests and group quest chains that offer good rewards. And that there should be areas that have only group quests.

Part of the problem is with the developers because in my experience, more often than not, they will have a quest chain that one can solo to a point then suddenly it's all about grouping only to go back to soloing again.

While it might make for more compelling storytelling in that you have to gather others for particular mission, it does tend to ruin both solo and group players' experience.

for example, the player who is a solo player who suddenly needs a group to continue will most likely drop the quest until such time he can get into one easily or at a time when he can spend undivided attention to the group. He might even drop the quest completely, become discouraged that he can't continue and leave the game. The obvious answer would be "just get a group" but grouping (and grouping well) sometimes requires a lot of time (just going to say it, tomb of elendil: LOTRO, among others) or that you don't leave the keyboard because your kid needs you or dinner is burning or you have to take a shower (which happened in a group I was in. Luckily it was before we started but we were all waiting on that individual)

And sometimes people just aren't comfortable with meeting strangers in such an abrupt fashion and will avoid the grouping aspect until they can do it on their terms. Many players tend to forget that as people we are social in different ways.

conversely, it is unfair to the grouper to go back and forth between solo and group in an area or quest chain becuase what ends up happening is that players will group for the one or two quests and then drop. Gone are the days when players will get a group for an entire evening. Now it's one or two things and then it breaks up. This is very unfair to players who want their mmo's to be group experiences.

The solution would be to either separate quest chains and areas to group and solo and give different but comparable rewards or allow each quest to be played differently between group and solo and to give different rewards depending on which option was picked.

As we've seen, if it's not advantageous, even group players won't group. Too often I've seen group players turn down the group optioins because the xp is cut a bit. Personally when I group I cease caring about xp and it's more about the experience. Which I think is hilarious as groupers are always touting that it's the experience of a group that makes these games and yet they will opt out if the xp is not quite the same.

Still, (wow, this got long!) it's unfair to players who always group to always suffer xp penalties for grouping because though they are gettng the game play they want, to labor with less than the optimum xp rewards will just cause them to become discouraged.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

12/29/09 10:21:09 AM#158

Very well put Sovrath. I too will choose a group over solo even if the exp suffers. I rarely care about what loot I'm getting in recent games as quests and crafting will usually get you all you need. I do become disheartened if grouping constantly yields less that grouping. Being in a good group and having a rare drop that they let you have without a roll always makes your month though.

  Robsolf

Elite Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 3958

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

12/29/09 11:10:34 AM#159
Originally posted by Sovrath


 

I think you are pretty much spot on. though I would disagree in that there probably are people who eat and watch t.v. in a group. Some call them familes ; )

Ah, yes!  But I think we both agree that they can't quite be compared to guild members, and certainly not PUG's.  And for those of you who have a family full of gamers, you're truly blessed!  Unless you don't have enough PC's, that is... :P

But I've never met a soloer who begrudged others their choice to group or who didn't even like to group up on occasion with like-mined people.

My thought is that some people require the idea of an opposition in order to strengthen their argument which is why some people believe that soloers are against people who group. It's just a ridiculous notion.

Agreed.  Though they(groupies) are half right.  Like I said, solo(family as an exception) is a default state of being, while grouped is an exceptional/occasional state of being in real life, and thus, that's how many people game.  As devs get more and more privvy to this psychological fact, games will be more more solo friendly, and particularly, will shun forced grouping.  A lack of forced grouping will naturally make grouping less common.  So in that, they are somewhat correct.  Problem is, people don't like to be FORCED to do anything.

However, one thing that I believe is correct is that there are players who will moan and complain when the game is entirely not soloable. Not that one can't get to cap solo but that there is a place they can't get to solo or that there are solo quests that offer better rewards.

Rare, but true.  And in my experience these sorts of declarations are usually a response to an attack from a groupie.  Not so much a call for all group content to be solo content.  It's after the discussion gets heated that the polarization starts occuring, and both sides go to extremes. 

I think it's ok to have group quests and group quest chains that offer good rewards. And that there should be areas that have only group quests.

Agreed.  Though, apparently for some, that isn't enough.  AoC's epic versions of their playfields was mentioned and immediately shot down by the groupies.  And that's not even counting AoC's group content in their "solo" playfields.

Part of the problem is with the developers because in my experience, more often than not, they will have a quest chain that one can solo to a point then suddenly it's all about grouping only to go back to soloing again.

While it might make for more compelling storytelling in that you have to gather others for particular mission, it does tend to ruin both solo and group players' experience.

for example, the player who is a solo player who suddenly needs a group to continue will most likely drop the quest until such time he can get into one easily or at a time when he can spend undivided attention to the group. He might even drop the quest completely, become discouraged that he can't continue and leave the game. The obvious answer would be "just get a group" but grouping (and grouping well) sometimes requires a lot of time (just going to say it, tomb of elendil: LOTRO, among others) or that you don't leave the keyboard because your kid needs you or dinner is burning or you have to take a shower (which happened in a group I was in. Luckily it was before we started but we were all waiting on that individual)

Yep. LotRO bugs me too in that respect. As a result, I have epic quests from as early as lvl 35 for my lvl 65 toon.  Tried last week, got wiped once and the leader had to bail... waited for 45 minutes for a replacement player to finish something else.  By then, most of the group had to leave.  Mission aborted.

Tomb of Elendil I just flat out dropped after several wipes at the end.

I think the best solution for this was what WoW did; open these instances up to ALL servers.  If LotRO could do that, that would solve alot of problems.

 

And sometimes people just aren't comfortable with meeting strangers in such an abrupt fashion and will avoid the grouping aspect until they can do it on their terms. Many players tend to forget that as people we are social in different ways.

Well, IMO, it's the real life equivelent of meeting somebody on a bus who is headed to the same store and "grouping" with them.  Most of us would never do that unless we were forced to.

conversely, it is unfair to the grouper to go back and forth between solo and group in an area or quest chain becuase what ends up happening is that players will group for the one or two quests and then drop. Gone are the days when players will get a group for an entire evening. Now it's one or two things and then it breaks up. This is very unfair to players who want their mmo's to be group experiences.

The solution would be to either separate quest chains and areas to group and solo and give different but comparable rewards or allow each quest to be played differently between group and solo and to give different rewards depending on which option was picked.

Yep!  And making grouping as quick and easy as possible..

As we've seen, if it's not advantageous, even group players won't group. Too often I've seen group players turn down the group optioins because the xp is cut a bit. Personally when I group I cease caring about xp and it's more about the experience. Which I think is hilarious as groupers are always touting that it's the experience of a group that makes these games and yet they will opt out if the xp is not quite the same.

Most modern games I've played give XP bonuses for groups, already.  While you still get less XP per mob, you can mow through them much quicker.  In a group that can stick together, I'd had far faster advancement than anytime I solo.  In LotRO, in CoX, in pre-cu SWG... In those games, I found the benefits of grouping to be perfectly satisfactory.  I think the benefits are there, I just think that groupies don't recognize soloing as the default state; most don't solo because it has equal rewards to grouping, it doesn't.  They just solo because that's the way they do things IRL.  Groupies, however, just see grouping occur less and less, and assume its the rewards(or their perceived lack thereof) to be the problem.

Still, (wow, this got long!) it's unfair to players who always group to always suffer xp penalties for grouping because though they are gettng the game play they want, to labor with less than the optimum xp rewards will just cause them to become discouraged.

I agree, but as I stated above, most games I've played have taken measures to make grouping more rewarding for XP.  Particularly CoX.  If you're looking to level quickly, full teams grinding missions is ALWAYS the way to go.  Massive amounts of mobs in a private instance= xp gold...

 

 

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

12/29/09 11:24:50 AM#160
Originally posted by Robsolf

My thought is that some people require the idea of an opposition in order to strengthen their argument which is why some people believe that soloers are against people who group. It's just a ridiculous notion.

Agreed.  Though they(groupies) are half right.  Like I said, solo(family as an exception) is a default state of being, while grouped is an exceptional/occasional state of being in real life, and thus, that's how many people game.  As devs get more and more privvy to this psychological fact, games will be more more solo friendly, and particularly, will shun forced grouping.  A lack of forced grouping will naturally make grouping less common.  So in that, they are somewhat correct.  Problem is, people don't like to be FORCED to do anything.

However, one thing that I believe is correct is that there are players who will moan and complain when the game is entirely not soloable. Not that one can't get to cap solo but that there is a place they can't get to solo or that there are solo quests that offer better rewards.

Rare, but true.  And in my experience these sorts of declarations are usually a response to an attack from a groupie.  Not so much a call for all group content to be solo content.  It's after the discussion gets heated that the polarization starts occuring, and both sides go to extremes.

In my experience, group only areas and group only quest chains are exactly what solo'ers call forced grouping. You can't have group only content without someone wanting to do it solo.

 

As for elite or group versions of solo content, it becomes very difficult to find people to voluntarily do content that is harder than can be done solo. Especially if the rewards aren't better (not just exp.)

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