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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » “Innovation” is destroying community

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96 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2388

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 7:09:43 PM#61
Once again self preference is made as fact and indicative of the industry while those with another opinion have words put in their mouth and are misinterpreted. It's not worth responding to anymore lol.

I'm glad that games will be opening up to social networks and improving the actual interactions.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2388

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 7:15:21 PM#62
Yeah, I can guarantee that more will be said in a Vanguard dungeon group than a WoW LFD group. I'm not sure why people have to argue that or think it's a bad thing. That's what "deeper interaction" means to me. Sure, I like speed profession at times as much as the next gamer. I'm not sure why things have to be team red and team blue all the time. I guess it's the urge to argue and "win". It's funny to see.
  User Deleted
3/29/13 7:18:16 PM#63

Originally posted by Aelious
Once again self preference is made as fact and indicative of the industry while those with another opinion have words put in their mouth and are misinterpreted. It's not worth responding to anymore lol.

I'm glad that games will be opening up to social networks and improving the actual interactions.

 

6 minutes later...

 

Originally posted by Aelious
Yeah, I can guarantee that more will be said in a Vanguard dungeon group than a WoW LFD group. I'm not sure why people have to argue that or think it's a bad thing. That's what "deeper interaction" means to me. Sure, I like speed profession at times as much as the next gamer. I'm not sure why things have to be team red and team blue all the time. I guess it's the urge to argue and "win". It's funny to see.

 

LOLOL

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/29/13 7:22:03 PM#64

The entire idea that community should be require to progess is misguided.

Long before there was a "group finder" there were people joining groups JUST TO GET XP FASTER and didnt give a lick about the people they were grouping with.

Forced grouping = bad game design.

Design a game that is FUN and gives people reasons to get together, and they will. Perhaps instead of LAUGHING the next time someone posts about ROLEPLAYING aspects, try actually looking at the REASONS.

If people can sit, dance (not via emotes), play music, layout food and drinks and do a variety of SOCIAL things it will get people playing together other than just grouping...and there is your community building. Make crafting so it can create a TON of social costumes and make it so players can hold costume contests easily...put a big stage in every city...have it so that music that can be played has a large variety for concerts to be held...give us fireworks to shoot off for that concert! Allow players to do magic tricks, juggle and other crazy things that can bring life to a ctiy/town.

GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

3/29/13 7:33:09 PM#65
Originally posted by Psychow

Originally posted by Aelious
Once again self preference is made as fact and indicative of the industry while those with another opinion have words put in their mouth and are misinterpreted. It's not worth responding to anymore lol.

I'm glad that games will be opening up to social networks and improving the actual interactions.

 

6 minutes later...

 

Originally posted by Aelious
Yeah, I can guarantee that more will be said in a Vanguard dungeon group than a WoW LFD group. I'm not sure why people have to argue that or think it's a bad thing. That's what "deeper interaction" means to me. Sure, I like speed profession at times as much as the next gamer. I'm not sure why things have to be team red and team blue all the time. I guess it's the urge to argue and "win". It's funny to see.

 

LOLOL

Yeah .. he is describing himself :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

3/29/13 7:34:36 PM#66
Originally posted by jtcgs

GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

Haven't you played SIMS online? It is not like social has not been tried. But we all know how that ends. Look at the market, people want to kill things together.

 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/29/13 7:41:20 PM#67
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jtcgs

GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

Haven't you played SIMS online? It is not like social has not been tried. But we all know how that ends. Look at the market, people want to kill things together.

 

 You mean also like UO, EQ1&2, AC1, SWG, LoTRo, CoH and those are just the western made MMOs that provided plenty of RP in their RPG...gawd.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2388

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 7:42:52 PM#68
Lol, I was responding to you Psychow and I had a completely valid assurtion. Community will be important to some and not others. In a time period where we are more connected via the Internet it's rediculous to think it will lessen in online avenues. I mean, it's not as though even SP games are adding online functionality. It will only get bigger.
  WW4BW

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 480

3/29/13 7:50:16 PM#69
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WellzyC

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

Without community, you might as well be playing single player games.

In those you dont get ninja looted either. Though with a community you can shame ninja looters into where they will have a hard time finding another group.

LFG, LFD, and LFR with instant teleportation to the action is just a fancy graphical lobby. Not an MMO..

I never liked the term AAA.. But I see now what it is for.. AAA games arent great MMOs. They are passable singleplayer experiences, with some multiplayer functions.

Good MMOs dont need hours of voice acting, fancy cut scenes, or months of quest creation. They need a community.

It's true that you dont need a community to have fun. But fun alone does not make a game into an MMO.

Developers "waste" years creating single player content for a multi player game. That its massivly multi player only makes it worse.

All this content, they spend millions and years creating, gets consumed in weeks. Everyone experience pretty much the same game, there are no unique stories to be lived. And every character gets reduced to a spreadsheet of stats with no meaning.

The "big boys" are terrible at making MMOs for one simple reason. They try to control every aspect of the game. They need to be able to predict every stage of the games evolution (they force a lack of it, in fact), and design every part to be as predictable as possible, so they can plan years ahead in detail.

Early MMOs didnt put everything on rails.. It was unpredictable and dangerous. The Devs had no idea what people could do in their games. But when it wasnt game breaking it was absolute bliss, even if it was game breaking it could be the greatest thing ever. Stories and legends grew from almost nothing. It wasnt something the Developers had created. They had created a world were people were free to do things their own way.. And this scares the shit out of most  IP owners.

IP hoarders dont want you messing with their cash cow... They alone get to decide how it developes. If they cant, they wont touch it.

 

*edit* ok this started to turn into a rant about IP owners and thats not really where i wanted to go. I think I would substitute publishers for IP owners for the particular argument I was making.

  Roin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/03
Posts: 2869

3/29/13 7:55:59 PM#70
Originally posted by Aelious
I agree OP and that Georgenson interview brought a smile to my face, as most EQN related news/comments have. I don't care how many players want to be unsocial in an MMO, as asinine as it seems, having systems that encourage or even force interaction is a good thing IMO. Make it public too so that those who don't like interacting with others don't bother playing. You can't make everyone happy and there are clearly enough MMOs out there to play without taking to anyone.

SoE's innovations will be a great step in communicating with others. They already have good voice and visual chat with SoEMote. Add in the fact that PS2 has open proximity chat tells me I'll be able to walk up to strangers in a town and our avatars could not only chat verbally but visually.

That's my idea of MMO innovation! :)

The only people that need to be forced to do anything. Are people that can't do it for themselves. I don't need a game to tell me when to talk to someone. I'll do that when and where I want to.  I don't need a game to tell me when to interact with someone. I'll do that myself.

Forced grouping is just a poor way of helping the the real people with social problems. The people that need developers to force others to work with them. That is why even now UO was superior to EQ when it released.   

Grouping and Communication should be there to make life easier. Not help socially inept people make friends. UO understood this well. Even SWG understood this. I don't know maybe there is some truth into what all the pro-sandbox people have been saying.

In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.

  WW4BW

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 480

3/29/13 8:37:08 PM#71
Originally posted by Roin
Originally posted by Aelious
 

The only people that need to be forced to do anything. Are people that can't do it for themselves. I don't need a game to tell me when to talk to someone. I'll do that when and where I want to.  I don't need a game to tell me when to interact with someone. I'll do that myself.

Forced grouping is just a poor way of helping the the real people with social problems. The people that need developers to force others to work with them. That is why even now UO was superior to EQ when it released.   

Grouping and Communication should be there to make life easier. Not help socially inept people make friends. UO understood this well. Even SWG understood this. I don't know maybe there is some truth into what all the pro-sandbox people have been saying.

 You werent forced in the old games. It made sense to group.. but you werent forced..

 Or if you like.. sure you were forced to group to kill the big stuff.. but even some of that could be done with two or three people.

 In new games you are pretty much an idiot if you stop to group up for most of the content. and then you are most certainly forced into groups and raids to get the good stuff at max level. screw you "bind on pickup".

 Soloing in new games is so piss easy, stuff just dies and you feel badass for a few seconds. But just look at all these badasses around you.. even the cloth wearing healer is killing stuff with ease. Yeah, you are a big bad warrior.

 And should you even need or want to communicate in a group... Well tough luck there isnt time.. gotta keep spamming skills and running... In older games there were far more auto attacking and more time between required input that you actually had time to type.. And in older games you actually had pulling, leading to more time to communicate.. In newer games you just jump on a camp of creeps and spam skills till they are all dead, before rushing after the most impatient member of the group to the next camp.. It is extremly rare that people stop to talk strategy even.. 

The current crop of MMOs are so focused on instant action and gratification that social players are left out in the cold.

And no.. standing around in town and spamming crap in chat isnt socializing. Its being a pest while you wait for the dungeon finder to teleport you to the next silent dungeon rush.

With all this bull shit instancing... its even less likely you wil ever socialize.. you have your own private dungeon and camps.. No need to talk about sharing or meeting a stranger and teaming up for a daring trek into the unknown.. 

You are missing out on something great..... and so are those of us who definatly want more incentives to group up. Because its not in these current Massivly Singleplayer Online games.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2388

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 9:09:37 PM#72
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by Aelious

Well right now they have over 9 million subs so yeah,  I doubt they are going to make any changes unless it is a major change the largest amount of people will enjoy.  I'm really not sure what they could add that would be cohesive with their current gameplay model anyhow, aside from maybe RP tools.  I'm not saying that a majority of people want better commnuity tools, what I'm saying is that they can always make a game better.  I bet RP communities would agree with this and in most games, especially WoW, they can be large.  Although some might not care about a better community I can't imagine they would be against it.

Once again well said and I agree that if they did add tools for RPers that it would not negatively impact the game. In fact I'm sure most people would not even notice. My point being is there must be a reason they do not. That part of the player base is either to small, not vocal, or are happy with the way things are.

I don't think adding more options to a game can ever be a negative thing. Options are great even if I never use them. You see thats where this debate really starts. Having the option and forcing that style of gameplay are two different things. Adding tools to make those that want to participate in community is the logical thing to do in this era of MMORPGs. Making a MMO that is designed to force people to be active in the community is a thing of the past.

 

Well said and I agree with you that for most games this is the case, especially WoW.  I know the term "forced" generates an immediate cringe but dungeons force at least being in a group in order to complete the content at level.  Maybe that's why LFD groups don't typically have as much chat going on is because there are a lot of people who just don't want to socialize, just progress.  It's entirely possible that forcing cooperative play like LFD in another game may yield different results.  If EQ2 ever balances it's 29 classes correctly into it's LFD we'll find out .

 

 Blizzard has put things into WoW that promote more interaction between players.  First was opening up the WoW phone app to all subs.  This app allows you to remote chat into your guild and even whisper people.  Another is more world bosses and shared mob credit outside of groups.  Third is CRZ.  Cross Realm Zoning that allows battlegroups to share zones with one another.  This along with shared world bosses and shared credit did promote interaction between players.  For those on an RP server grouped with Moonguard like me... this can be a blessing and a curse though I must say they turn out in numbers.  Lovin' you Goldshire!!

 

The CRZ addition didn't bring all roses however.  There is a 530ish page thread about what's wrong with CRZ citing camping on PvP servers, harrassment, bigotry, etc, etc.  Which brings me back to the previous statement that more social functionality that helps some games may not help others. 

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/29/13 10:41:34 PM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon

And selfish? well well well .. you don't want games made for your preferences? You want games made for me? If not, you are as selfish as me.

Negative.

 

Who is more selfish here.

The one who has many games that already cater to his tastes always attempting to out yell those asking for 1, just 1 the way they would like to see it in any and every post that pertains to an old school feel?

Or the one asking for 1 game in 1000 to release with their preferences and to be different from the slew of themepark hamster wheel games already in existence?

And there will be a few coming down the pipe, things always come back around...so don't give me the it won't happen BS. Which I am sure BTW you will sound off on how horrible and boring they are...and how they need to change X,Y, and Z (solo heavy, fast, heavily instanced) to make it not tank.

It can be done without making it overly grindy, and there are ways to make play time during what use to be down-time. Just need dev's to wake out of their stooper and get the creative juices flowing again instead of simply looking at the easiest route to keep the players suckered and paying.

 

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1746

3/30/13 9:12:06 AM#74
Originally posted by WellzyC

 

Examples?

The dungeon finder:  You don’t have to actively talk to people and recruit them in order to form a group.

 

Khm, will try to guess. Maybe because is not fun lfg-ing for 9 hours to be able to play (sometimes) 1 hour?

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7187

3/30/13 9:16:23 AM#75
Nice post OP. Thanks for the thought on mega servers.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1746

3/30/13 9:22:18 AM#76
Originally posted by bcbully
Nice post OP. Thanks for the thought on mega servers.

Agree on this. I'm much more pro mega servers then dozens of single servers. Instancing if done correctly is not problem. Also player must be able to switch without problems between.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5107

3/30/13 9:24:00 AM#77

Innovation is what is keeping our world moving forward, including MMORPGs.

If all of these features were so bad none of the newer games would have sold more than 1000 copies.

The old game systems were fine 10+ years ago, the gamers have evolved and the game features will continue to evolve.

 

The notion that a new game without any of the new features that the player base has grown accustomed to would be hugely successful is false. You could have a small niche game with nice and tight community sure, but when a MMO costs $50 million on average, the devs are not going for a niche small community.

Modern MMOs are very expensive to develop, so you need a large player base to recoup the cost.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5511

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/30/13 9:29:41 AM#78
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jtcgs

GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

Haven't you played SIMS online? It is not like social has not been tried. But we all know how that ends. Look at the market, people want to kill things together.

And you know... TeamSpeak and Mumble are a thing. If you're not on VOIP with your buddies or team / guild mates, then you have no reason to complain. Just sayin'

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2885

3/30/13 9:32:53 AM#79
Originally posted by Roin

I agree OP and that Georgenson interview brought a smile to my face, as most EQN related news/comments have.

The only people that need to be forced to do anything. Are people that can't do it for themselves. I don't need a game to tell me when to talk to someone. I'll do that when and where I want to.  I don't need a game to tell me when to interact with someone. I'll do that myself.

Forced grouping is just a poor way of helping the the real people with social problems. The people that need developers to force others to work with them. That is why even now UO was superior to EQ when it released.   

Grouping and Communication should be there to make life easier. Not help socially inept people make friends. UO understood this well. Even SWG understood this. I don't know maybe there is some truth into what all the pro-sandbox people have been saying.

Every sporting event is forced grouping, every movie theather is forced grouping, every train is forced grouping, every bus is forced grouping, every bar is forced grouping, every subway is forced grouping, every airplane is forced grouping, every concert is forced grouping, every circus is forced grouping, every school is forced grouping, every restaurant is forced grouping, every workplace is forced grouping.

You know what they all have in common? It creates community. We're not the social inept here.

 

In fact, people actually go to these forced grouping events FOR the community.

Many of those places have rules and regulations on how to behave. SHOCKER. It actually creates a good community by taking out the bad apples.

Well what do you know, these communities kind of resemble forced grouping MMO.

 

If you want to play on your own that's fine, but don't blame others when they're looking for something more in their MMO than mindless action.

  jesteralways

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 546

3/30/13 9:59:20 AM#80
Originally posted by WellzyC

 

Innovation is a nice 50 cent word that mmo devs love to throw around when they are talking about their game.  “Our game is innovative because we have these systems in place, or we do this in order to make your experience more convenient and fun”.

 

But innovation comes in many different forms and has lots of different paths. The most common path of “innovation” that seems to be really popular with game devs is convenience. How can we game the game more accessible, faster, and easier for casual players to get into. These innovative systems are designed to allow people to be more independent, to be put in groups at the touch of a button, and place every single person on one giant server.

 

Sound good right? We’ll here’s the problem with that.

While watching the Dave Georgenson interview it started to get me thinking about “depth of features” and how recent mmos claim to be innovative but have created convenience systems in their game that actively discourage player interaction and the development of community. Lots of features in new mmos that have taken away the need or ability to get to know the people you encounter.

Examples?

The dungeon finder:  You don’t have to actively talk to people and recruit them in order to form a group.

 

No loot sharing:  This is a small one, but small things add up, when a creature or boss dies everyone has a copy of the loot so there is no need to discuss who gets what, or talk about something “cool that dropped”.

 

Instanced story content and cut scenes: I have talked before about how I despise scripted content, so I won’t go into that again, but there are a lot of games making instanced stories and cut scenes the main focus of the game. Interaction between players is not wanted when someone is trying to read or listen to dialog. In Swtor, I actually had a guy leave the Vent channel because people were talking over his cut scenes.. you kidding me?

 

The Mega Server:  this one gets me the most, and not just ESO, gw2 has a similar problem. Community is developed by familiarity, when you see the same people over and over again, you are far more likely to talk with them and interact. If you see the same five people in a public dungeon that you saw yesterday,  you are more likely to strike up a conversation or group. Seeing the same guilds and seeing the same enemies creates comradery and creates rivelries. You don’t feel inclined to remember anyone you grouped with, or try to interact with them beyond going through the motions of a group if you know there is little to no chance you will ever see that player again.

 

 

These are just some examples of a larger growing problem. Innovation is way too focused on creating convenience that is phasing out community. This is why older MMOs have lasted so long, years and years, because community has been created over the need to get to know the people you play with. You have to be in good standing with other players in order to survive and get anything meaningful accomplished.

 

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

 

Not all innovation is bad, it still is a good word and games need to be innovative in order to survive this really competitive game market. But through innovation developers are sabotaging themselves by creating a shallow game that has only enough short term appeal as the shiny combat, or fancy scripted content that they have created. Completely forgetting the very essence of what makes an mmo great, creating a community through depth of features, familiarity, and the need to rely on others.

 

‘Till next time!

i wrote it in another post that if given the choice; these days everyone goes solo. but and it is a VERY BIG BUT those features you mentioned(except for lootting) are calling of time and i support them whole heartedly. let me describe why :

Group finder : it is not only convenient , it is really helpful in helping new end game players in guild gearing up faster.  in wow i did same dungeons again and again to help my guildmates get their gears. then we turned to LFR to gear up together. travelling all the way to dungeon/raid entrance and then being ganked by opposite faction and fail to even start dungeon/raid is terrible feelings. that is why LFD/LFR is my favorite in WoW or any other game. and as far as PUG goes, yea they are bad most of the times but many times in wow i found people from other realms who were so nice that we all ended up talking after we cleared a few mobs, we didn't even wanna do the dungeon any further, always happened at least once everyday. i always felt sad that i couldn't add those people to my friendlist as they were from another server.

instanced story and cutscene : these really annoys the hell out of me sometimes. the cut scenes in swtor are boring after one watch but there are always those who likes to sip a cup of coffe when the cut scene is going on and sometimes people strike conversation in the mean time too. if someone is just deliberately wasting time then it is really annoying but sometimes i find people who likes to talk about game and lore while the cutscene is goin on, i like that a lot. and scripted content in wow was best in cata, i remember i formed a raid just to do that thrall elemental quests as there were shit load of horde who were trying to gank any of us who were running around solo. it was so awesome. i felt really down after the horde ran away and after 5 mins all of us left the raid as it was impossible to further quest progress in raid. i really wish they would create more group oriented quests instead of solo instancing.

megaserver : this one mate is my favorite technology, the most awesome invention in mmo history. i loved the megaserver tech in dcuo, there were always so many players around me and there were never shortage of players to do world bosses or anything else. my friend list was filled with people i met while running around. we made a petiton to make the number of players we can add to friend and ignore to unlimited but that did not happen. there were so many players to play with and so many more to ignore :D. i think this mega server makes people more social and people feel like sticking with each other  even more. too bad SOE didn't give shit for community and pvp started to fill up with hackers and botters. i finally ended up calling the devs "imbecilic faggots" in world chat and instantly got perma banned.

you are right that something is wrong in today's mmo but that is not these innovative feature. it is how game is designed today. devs are creating more story based instanced quest line, fine but for the love of god make them group oriented; make the mobs intelligent enough so that no one can ever do those quests solo. there are plenty of ways to make the game challenging so that people interact with each other more and  play an mmo like it is mmo and not some single player game with online connectivity.

No panties, No Life

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