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Rift (Rift)
Trion Worlds | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 03/01/11)  | Pub:Trion Worlds
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244 posts found
  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1406

3/26/13 10:43:34 AM#21
Originally posted by FromHell

The real visionary on this panel is Chris Roberts. Then the EQ Next guy (forgot his name).

Roberts is not bound to the old and stale MMO ideology and terminology. All the others seem to rehash old concepts (again with the exception of EQ Next, but let´s see how it turns out)

Too bad no one from CCP was there talking about World of Darkness. Could have replaced that GW2 guy.

 

Chris Roberts is my favorite game producer in history, with that said, I wouldn't hold my breath for anything to be relased from him anytime soon.

Freelancer was his last game, backed by a studio with deep deep pockets at the time (Microsoft), and he had to actually leave Digital Anvil for it to be relased after something like 5 years in development...

This kickstarter thing is gonna taake at least 10 years before a playable version is even shown to the press lol

  User Deleted
3/26/13 10:44:47 AM#22

When we get a medeival fantasy virtual world simulation, that doesn't revolve around PKs, let me know.

 

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1406

3/26/13 10:45:12 AM#23
Originally posted by benseine
Originally posted by SysFail

Having watched the PAX discussion by MMORPG, i'm feeling quite happy about the future of MMO's, as it looks as though developers are embracing the idea of the sandbox for its freedom and player created content, rather than the scripted path of the themepark.

Watch it here. http://www.mmorpg.com/showVideo.cfm/videoId/3005

finally, bye bye themepark.

I wouldn't say that....EVE is the WoW of sandboxes, and has not made a dent in themepark sales.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2364

World > Quest Progression

3/26/13 10:47:22 AM#24
I seem to have a different take than others regarding UGC. Say you have "Player A(PA)" who likes to build and "Player B(PB)" who likes to just quest/kill. When it's mentioned that UGC helps augment developer content that doesn't meant more to do for PB as much as it does for PA. Sure, systems like player dungeons and pre-designed homes can be beneficial to PB but less so than PA who built it.

If you don't like to build stuff than sandbox features aren't really going to help you. UGC augments developer content for the builders/creaters as far as I see it.
  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

3/26/13 10:52:15 AM#25

In the world of gaming - the answer to the question of which is the best style is that everyone is right. whatever style you like best is the style that is the best for you. It is about opinion. I like player made mods, a good deal of them(I disagree with 99%) are crap, but there are some that are either better than the original or enhance the original and make it a better game.  The player mods to the Elder Scroll games are, to me, a shining example, as are the player mods for Civilization IV.  But in the end, that is MY opinion and your opinion may vary.  

Themepark games will never die, there are players, possibly even the majority, that like to have their hands held.. they want something they can PLAY, not invest a lot of time in. They want the game to be the same(this is my opinion) every time they log in.  Sandboxers, on the other hand(in my opinion), want the game to evolve to some degree, so that it isn't always the same.  They can create characters that are similiar in the beginning but different as they progress.  Having locked in themepark classes doesn't allow much variation, having classless characters where the player takes over the diraction allows more variation. Now there will still be limiting factors such as armor looks, ship types(in EVE) etc.  The question is whcich do YOU prefer?  The answer - whatever it is will always be correct for you, but rarely will be correct for everyone.  To say that only 1 style is good should be tagged with "in my opinion".  Even if someone likes niche games they should be included, regardless if the majority  doesn't like that style.  The point of the companies is to make money. That means making niche games too, because the niche player will often go back to single player games rather than play themeparks if they do not like themepark games(again my opinion).  All of this is just my opinion.  I posted this because it gets ever so tiring watching people deride each other over things like which playstyle, sandbox vs themepark for example, is better. Both, neither, it depends on the individual.

 

Currently bored with MMO's.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19467

3/26/13 10:52:16 AM#26
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by Quirhid
You talk like player created content is good.

Well...in b4 Nariu, Cephus404 at least to crap on this thread. And player created content I am willign to give a shot. Can't be any worse than what these current dev's called content.

 

Hope sandboxes get bigger on a side note.

Only because i was actually playing non-sandbox games last night .. don't have time to post until this morning at work. You know, there are fun games to play.

 

  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3151

Google is your friend.

3/26/13 10:52:38 AM#27

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

  SysFail

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/05
Posts: 377

 
OP  3/26/13 11:36:57 AM#28
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

The highlighted is what i see as UGC content personally, it's that style of play that i have the best memories of from online gaming. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19467

3/26/13 11:52:10 AM#29
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

Well, it is just a matter of definition. If you consider players doing some stuff in game as content, then LOL is full of UGC.

For discussion sake, we need a term for the foundry/NWN type UGC .. and those, are 99.99% crap.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

3/26/13 12:05:16 PM#30
My problem with most sandbox MMOs is that while you can do anything, it feels like there is nothing to do......I honestly haven't played any sandbox for longer than a month or two.....Most of them jsut feel like there is no point to it...Then you add in the dreaded FFA PVP that every single one feels it has to have and that is the dealbreaker.
  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5506

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/26/13 12:06:54 PM#31
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

 

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1406

3/26/13 12:41:47 PM#32
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

 

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

^This.

Say what you want about things WoW actually "invented" (dungon finders), i'll take that any day over spamming chat for 30 min, as a healer no less...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19467

3/26/13 12:57:46 PM#33
Originally posted by Quirhid

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

WOW players don't play that much in the virtual world anyway. Many are queuing up and doing instances. The strength of the game is the many options to play.

 

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/26/13 1:02:41 PM#34
IMO, sandboxes without some kind of story to follow kind of blow.
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2701

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/26/13 1:18:59 PM#35
Originally posted by birdycephon
IMO, sandboxes without some kind of story to follow kind of blow.

Agreed completely.  Plus I'll add sandboxes that concentrate on Building and crafting with little to no support for traditional MMO activites such as "combat" blow too.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19467

3/26/13 1:21:08 PM#36
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by birdycephon
IMO, sandboxes without some kind of story to follow kind of blow.

Agreed completely.  Plus I'll add sandboxes that concentrate on Building and crafting with little to no support for traditional MMO activites such as "combat" blow too.

There are niche games like Tales of the Desert. I won't play a game withotu good combat, but there may be others who may.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 1:27:18 PM#37

The sandbox future can't come soon enough:

Make it a huge open world and give that world a history and texture.

Provide flexibility in character development (a la Skyrim).

Provide some core PvE content / quests for initial release.

Provide users with the tools to generate new content along with a tool to effectively rate/review user generated content allowing the most popular/fun content to rise to the top.

Provide hooks within the open world to link that content to.

Make all in game items craftable with the goal of eventually eliminating all NPC sales of items.

Allow items to decay and/or be destroyed.

Implement areas where PvP can occur and where people can lose their eqiupment (which can be looted and salvaged to make new equpment).

Make learning time-based rather than experience based so players can focus on what they find fun within the game and not have to "grind" or feel like they must macro things to keep up with the other players.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 1:34:50 PM#38
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

Well, it is just a matter of definition. If you consider players doing some stuff in game as content, then LOL is full of UGC.

For discussion sake, we need a term for the foundry/NWN type UGC .. and those, are 99.99% crap.

How many Foundry scenarios did you play in NWN? Because of the few I had a chance to play, there was 0% crap. So your ability to estimate appears to be off by a factor of infinity according to my experience.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1812

3/26/13 1:42:04 PM#39

I don't think there is much secret here....

 

1) The market is absolutely SATURATED with Themepark games. It's just basic business sense. No matter how much more popular hamburgers are at a certain point you have a better chance of success opening up a Chinese place then becoming the 251st hamburger stand in your small town and having to compete for market share with all those already established hamburger stands. MMO Developers are branching to try different market niche's that don't have alot of competition and sandbox's are an obvious choice. There really aren't that many quality modern sandbox's out there, and Developers are banking on (and I tend to agree with them) there is enough of an audience to support a few of them.

2) Sandbox's can generaly be produced MUCH less expensively then Themeparks. The reason why is that Themeparks require a TON of content in order to be successfull and it takes ALOT of Developer man-hours which translates into alot of dollars to proffesionaly produce that content. Especialy with all the elements like cinematics and voice-overs that users have come to expect from Themepark games these days. With sandbox's, the Developers are producing the toolsets and the world and letting the players be responsible for the lions share of the content. That means fewer dollars required....and MOST IMPORTANTLY....less dollars sunk in up front in Development. That's important because very large amounts of capital investment are really hard to come by these days. Investors that are willing to pony up that much money up front in todays climate expect a very significant ROI....and the big name Themepark releases just haven't been performing well enough to provide it....so nobody wants to take the risk in sinking in the huge amounts of capital it takes for them to be successfull on launch.

3) Even though the number of people interested in virtual worlds or sandbox's may significantly less....their customer loyalty is MUCH higher. Patterns show that. The big AAA Themeparks get a big burst of sales up front and then they drop dramaticaly within a few months, as the users have consumed all the content, grow bored and go off to the next new shiny thing. Thier customers are there for the content and once they've consumed it, it's off to something else. They may get a spike of customers again if they have a big new content update, but they don't last long and getting them back is almost like winning a new customer all over again. The sandbox and virtual world crowd are entirely different. Once they decide to join a game, they tend to hang around for years and years and years....often well past what the Developers might have thought the games shelf life was....and with little investments in the game. That long term steady income stream is really, really attractive financialy. The reason again is simple and basic business....it costs MUCH, MUCH more to gain a new customer then it does to keep an existing one. This can be especialy true of MMO's as the operational costs really aren't that bad....especialy if the size of the user base is fairly steady and predictable. That makes keeping a few 100k users for 10 years alot more proffitable then getting 1 million users at start and only holding onto them for a few months.

Personaly I'm happy about all this as I enjoy "sandbox" games and like the creative aspects of being able to participate in a game. I'm sure not everyone feels the same way....but at least you can be happy that Developers are trying out different things rather then giving up altogether...which was a very distinct possibility given how the last few big budget titles have faired. YMMV.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 1:46:09 PM#40
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

You don't need to piss on roleplaying just because you don't like it. I'm not sure where you get the idea that make-believe isn't "all that popular". Are you aware that there are hundreds of millions of people who watch people roleplay every day? Television and movies is just make-believe. In addition, I don't think people are looking for JUST a virtual world, there's plenty of room to incorporate flexibility for a variety of playstyles within any sandbox. It's a design issue.

One of the reasons you probably don't see more people do in MMOs it is because there are bullies who like to sh*t on people who roleplay. Or they will make a name like "leetkillerlolz" partially BECAUSE they know it will screw with the roleplayers.

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