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Rift (Rift)
Trion Worlds | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 03/01/11)  | Pub:Trion Worlds
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35 posts found
  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/16/13 3:20:50 AM#1

I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/16/13 3:59:11 AM#2

An alternative isn't going to just magically appear.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5210

2/16/13 4:39:50 AM#3

Its a bit of an answer to everything. Look at how magic is used in quests, corrupting things, healing things and so on. Even the TSW which has the best quests I have seen uses a lot of that.

Getting away from it, not sure you can, being able to pull a rabbit out of a hat is too handy for story, quests and lore.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4562

2/16/13 4:48:23 AM#4

If real life was so awesome you wouldn't be sitting on a computer playing games. They're not meant to be realistic because realisitic sucks.

Got bit by that wild animal...oh you died from an infection!

Got hit by that human..because there are no other races. Now you get to spend 6-8 months in rehab and you'll probably never swing a sword again!

Those 2 game mechanics sound super fun. Ppl would line up to play " one shot " the realistic online adventure.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18929

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/16/13 5:12:06 AM#5
Have to agree, while I prefer MMOS with a more realistic virtual world feel, I still want them to be places where the fantastic happens, so have no problem with magic, even in my Sci Fi games. Heck, many things happen in real life that border on the fantastic and sometimes miraculous, why wouldn't I want that in my games?

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  xaritscin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/11
Posts: 303

"Antherea Online will see the light, eventually"

2/16/13 7:21:56 AM#6
Originally posted by MightyChasm

I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  

while i agree in the lack of imagination about mechanics, i point te responses given here, we cannot create a complete copy of RL in a virtual universe.

i mean we can implemente things like:

-RL physics

-some sort of chemistry system (elements of the periodic table, reaction simulatons and that stuff, it could create in theory a very very very complex crafting system)

-RL based biomes and ecosystems

-weather and climatic phenomena

-item mitigation (food decays after a time, armor gets rusty without mantainance, etc)

-a complex liquid system (dinamic water, allowing for the use of pumps and things like steam engines, etc)

-realistic creature behavior (pack hunting, herds, etc)

-realistic NPC behaviors (something akin to NPC Sims?)

and many other things, but that means a huge amount of work, if not billions of lines of code. dont expect it to be done by a big company.

now about magic, and science, well, its because of the need of fast activities, if you look it from the mass market, i bet no casual player would like to act as a surgeon if that means the BG for example has to wait 15 minutes until every player has been healed.

in games like EVE, "healing" takes a certain time to get done.

things like a medics system or realistic cooking and crafting would take too much time for the average player who wants things NAO!

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1850

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

2/16/13 7:31:24 AM#7
Originally posted by MightyChasm

I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  

a game where you only could do what you do in RL would be boring. no?

 

uh and for "sci fi".... usualy sci fi always inspires real world development, just check some 80's scifi movies :P

it's not unrealistic....

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

2/16/13 7:36:58 AM#8
Originally posted by MightyChasm

I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  

Well either you're requesting a game with 100% realism and permadeath, or you want a game to scientifically explain these things (which is obviously impossible as we cannot do them in real life).

What exactly do you want them to do differently?

  strangepowers

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 579

SCAD Animation-Film-F/X

2/16/13 7:44:33 AM#9


Originally posted by MightyChasm
I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  


Well if that's the case what would you propose?

It doesn't do any good to detract something and not offer an alternative solution.

So tell us what game mechanic you would implement if you had it your way that was not so "lazy."

Do you propose all team members take medication and surgery for a few weeks until they heal if at all?

Do you propose that boats and rafts are implemented for crossing bodies of water?

Do you suggest that perma-death is implemented when ones health reaches zero, game over at that point?


Tell us the alternative, don't just list your one sided monologue as a rant with nothing else to add.

The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5003

2/16/13 7:55:35 AM#10
Originally posted by DamonVile

If real life was so awesome you wouldn't be sitting on a computer playing games. They're not meant to be realistic because realisitic sucks.

Got bit by that wild animal...oh you died from an infection!

Got hit by that human..because there are no other races. Now you get to spend 6-8 months in rehab and you'll probably never swing a sword again!

Those 2 game mechanics sound super fun. Ppl would line up to play " one shot " the realistic online adventure.

Reality is actually far more amazing than we understand - look at the intricate metabolic systems inside our own bodies, the intricate mechanics of unfolding proteins in our cells. 

Consider the complete mind boggling quantum principles that we are only beginning to understand.

The universe is vast and very unknown to us.

Reality you see is far more mysterious than any fantasy we can come up with. Our problem is that many of us have lost our sense of wonder.

  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1308

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

2/16/13 8:09:52 AM#11
Yes, magic is very lazy these days.  Most prevalent in fantasy novels and theatre scripts but it bleeds to the gaming world.  Magic is suppose to have a "high price" and damn that price should not always be poor freaking armor!  I blame PvP for ruining everything in games.  If game makers were not so over come with fear they might offend the PvP community they would go back to making mages in a power with price form.  I doubt PnP D&D had any PvP and that is what games are founded on.

My favorite game glitch: http://youtu.be/9pQ_ZozZIio

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

 
OP  2/16/13 8:14:13 AM#12

In answer to the various responses, I wouldn't mind if there was some consistency but it is just used as an 'easy fix'.  

Ok on the sci fi theme, nano's, memory downloads- there are a myriad of options. 

 

  strangepowers

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 579

SCAD Animation-Film-F/X

2/16/13 8:20:43 AM#13


Originally posted by MightyChasm
In answer to the various responses, I wouldn't mind if there was some consistency but it is just used as an 'easy fix'.  

Ok on the sci fi theme, nano's, memory downloads- there are a myriad of options. 

 


You speak in very broad terms without really saying anything other than blanket statements.

You never proposed what you would change, consistency in what in particular?

Is this a certain game you have a problem with?

I don't agree with the statement "it's used as an easy fix"; it's a whole fictional genre of fantasy, a long established one at that. Not a fix, a system in place created by imaginative minds.

Than you mention giving a pass to the sci-fi genre but again quickly refer to a "myriad" of options but mention none... give us a few ideas you have if there is the myriad you speak of, I'm curious.

Perhaps you just don't like the genre of fantasy, that's a whole other conversation...

The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  Talin

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 825

You only live once... make it count!

2/16/13 8:35:43 AM#14

I'll simply disagree with the OP; the whole reason I play "fantasy" themed games is FOR the magic. I want a world where the amazing happens and wizards and dragons exist. When I play a game (infrequent as it may be these days), I don't want to worry about all of the nuances as we have to in RL.

If you are suggesting you would like to have a less "high fantasy" experience, that seems reasonable although I don't know what games offer that in the way suggested.

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5506

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

2/16/13 10:42:29 AM#15
I really don't care what the explanation is as long as the mechanics is fun. The fiction as to how and why something happens is completely secondary.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/16/13 3:15:03 PM#16
Originally posted by MightyChasm

In answer to the various responses, I wouldn't mind if there was some consistency but it is just used as an 'easy fix'.  

So it's the simpllicy of a one-world explanation of how you healed that's bothering you rather than the supernatural theme or missing downtime between being mauled by a bear and setting out for revenge?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

2/16/13 3:16:08 PM#17

I think we would create more interesting magic systems with some restrictions. Like a few basic forces that mages can use. For instance walking on water or slow falling would be pretty easy, creating a non newtonian fluid from water for instance. But creating a fireball may be much harder.

 

I think one interesting way to make magic different is to timescale it. A warrior could become quite effective in a short time while a mage can become far more effective but only over a longer time period. And magic should be rare. There are numerous ways to achieve that. I discussed a few in my old make my own VOW game threads.

One important factor is making it hard to become a mage, and making current mages much less likely to hand out power to their allies. I went over various mechanisms for this. But there are others.

 

One other thing I dealt with was alchemy. For instance making a poison isn't just a damage buff. You would have various kinds of potions doing various kinds of damage which would not be as effective on all monsters. Killing a dragon might require a special potion that attacks dragon cells specifically and also has anti magic properties to counter magic healing.

There are a lot of ways to deal with this stuff. Note that video games almost never have magic limited by immutable laws. Writes like Harry Turtledove often created magic based on a set of rules that were consistent, so in order to get out of scrapes characters had to make logical moves that could be derived from first principles instead of just magic handwaiving.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4760

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/16/13 3:18:52 PM#18
Originally posted by MightyChasm

I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  

So tell me, what would a realistic magic or future/alien technological advancement be?

And explain why that is more realistic over what we have currently.

edit - 150 years ago the idea of nanotechnology would have been ludicrous.  1000 years ago the idea that we could talk see and speak with people that are not even on thsi planet (astronauts), or that we could to space, or even fly, would have been ludicrous, withcraft or godly.

So the idea that just because we don't understand how something works, or even believe possible with our present understanding possible means it is not realistic is garbage.

1000 years from now, 100 years from now people will be doing things we did not believe were possible.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12095

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/16/13 3:53:49 PM#19
Originally posted by MightyChasm

I am just fed up of lazy game mechanics in fantasy games; the 'its magic' excuse.  Likewise in sci-fi, the unrealistic technological advancement is the equivelent.  

It is just lazy, and winds me up hugely, but perhaps that is just me.  

I am going to heal the entire team, how? Magic.  

Now I am going to walk on water?  Again magic.  

Now I am going to rise from the dead.  Bloody magic again.  

Of all the oddball things in MMOs, magic is the one that bothers you?

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2635

2/16/13 4:07:40 PM#20
The fantasy genre uses magic usually, even old folk tales, gods, and children's stories use magic.  I prefer fantasy mmos to technology ones myself, sounds like maybe you need to play a more technology based mmo if it bothers you that much, might be the best thing for your emmersion.
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