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Rift (Rift)
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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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421 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/09/13 2:09:09 PM#61

Please lord, let us have another game that understands additional roles, some day.

Tank, healer, dps is all right, but so limiting. I'm sure if you asked gamers, we may remember a few other roles...

OTOH, too many roles and pugs do get confused..

The op could only conceive of two possible outcomes, it seems.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Cry0

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/06
Posts: 44

2/09/13 2:09:14 PM#62

Someone else posted something along these lines but I always considered the holy trinity a EQ style mechanic where every group needed tank+healer+cc then fill in the rest with off tank/dps.  This trinity was a pain in the a because instead of just needing a tank + a healer you generally specifically needed an enchanter for cc , a warrior to tank and a cleric to heal.  Then you would be left with maybe a rogue for dps, a monk to pull and maybe a shaman for off heals/debuffs/buffs.  In WoW on the other hand you could get away with a warrior or a paladin tanking, half the DPS had some sort of cc (rogues could sap, hunters can trap, mages could frost nova etc) and you could get a priest, paladin, shaman or druid to heal.

I feel that considering the holy trinity to be the mechanic of DPS+TANK+Healer is incorrect in that you use lose classifications and to 'break' the trinity they tend to remove the need for a healer.  All that does is remove a specific play style that people enjoy from the game and instead place ghetto healing and team work on everyone else.

I think there are 2 styles of mmo, the group style and the solo style.  Solo style needs the removal of a specific healer class because healer + tank + dps is what defines a group style game.  Personally I enjoy group style otherwise I am paying a monthly fee to play by myself in a room with other people vs playing in a room with other people WITH the other people.

 

Oh, and for the comments about girls playing healers.  I played a healer for the first time in ff11 and it was a great experience always being needed =P.  Get online and instantly get 4 messages asking to join a group sure beats getting online and begging to join a group as one of the 3 random dps classes.  Also you generally have a more important role in the sense that if you suck at healing the tank dies and everyone dies... if you suck at dpsing the fight just lasts longer and you have 2 other people helping compensate for your suckyness.

  cura

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 868

2/09/13 2:10:14 PM#63
I dont like trinity. Encounters feels artificial and unheroic
  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 401

2/09/13 2:12:17 PM#64

I think Rift did an awesome job of including the trinity but not being restrictive.

Hey you're a rogue, well, we need a healer. OK, you can swap to bard.

Ouch, this fight requires a HoT based healer? OK, our cleric will swap specs quickly.

I think the days of "this is your spec and class, deal with it" are over. Pretty much since WoW mainstreamed the dual spec system, every MMO has duplicated it and often done a better job.

Originally posted by cura
I dont like trinity. Encounters feels artificial and unheroic

Also, I hope you're not suggesting GW2 was an improvement though? It was the worst group-based content i've ever seen in my life.

Infact, show me a (Not GW2) successful themepark MMO that didn't have a trinity system.

 

  vindir

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/07
Posts: 67

2/09/13 2:12:53 PM#65
Originally posted by SuperNick
  1. I didn't really feel connected to my characters, they were all just DPS to me with some utility.
  2. Dungeons were awful, unbalanced and a general mess. How were they ever going to balance it really? I still have nightmares about "hey i'm downed get me up!"
  3. With the no trinity, I basically lost playstyles I love. I love tanking and healing, I felt relegated into DPS only. Sure, I could play a fully water specced elementalist but it was generally a waste of time.
  4. The PvP basically became 'who can stay alive the longest' which I felt wasn't really tactical at all. It just discouraged you from playing squishy classes and specs overall. 3 guardians a warrior and a ranger became the normal in structured, of which you had a nightmare of a time getting them off flags.
  5. Where was the teamwork? Take whatever and whoever into a dungeon, it didn't matter.

That above.

I like the trinity - I love playing a healer.

Knowing that GW2 was trying to be done with the trinity, the idea intrigued me. And for the most part it was fun and different. However the one thing on top of the above that clinched for me that it has been poorly implented in GW2 was the plinx quest chain in Orr. You know the champ at the end of that chain - he had a hate on for me one time. I played my ranger at the time. He kept coming at me  - and ONLY freakin me. I thought, "c'mon someone pull him off me!'" but alas none could. He beat me into the ground. Thats ok, I rezzed in the camp next to the champ and thought he'd fix on someone else. I got back into the fight and the freakin thing made a bee line for me. WTH? OK, someone heal me - nope no healers! Someone pull aggro - nope not happening either. I died (again) it stopped. I got rezed - it freaking came right for me again. Had to be a cruel joke. So I stopped dps'ing and kitted around to see if it was truly just me it wanted - yep. It followed me in circles. Everyone around me was yelling to stop kiting. So I stood there, died, got rezed, died, rezed, died, and so on until it was finsihed. At least everyone got their daily rez completed.

With that happening to me I was concivned that the trinity is almost neccesary. Or at least better implementation of what GW2 was trying to do. Maybe a 'holy crap that guys needs help aggro skill.' ?

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/09/13 2:17:40 PM#66

Naw don't like it. 

Hope I don't need to elaborate, if someone wants to know why quote me.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

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  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

2/09/13 2:17:56 PM#67

Role based grouping with aggro mechanics?  Yes please.

 

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  Size-Twelve

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 493

See you in Washington

2/09/13 2:18:33 PM#68

There are many things I like more about GW2's combat system, but the game would have been better if the down-state was removed and the trinity system was back.

Perhaps in the future, someone can tweak the "combo field" idea to provide more noticeable benefits, so we can remove the trinity for good. But right now, I prefer tanking / healing, to zerging / rezzing.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/09/13 2:19:11 PM#69
Originally posted by XAPGames

Role based grouping with aggro mechanics?  Yes please.

 

Additonal roles please.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

2/09/13 2:20:21 PM#70
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by XAPGames

Role based grouping with aggro mechanics?  Yes please.

Additonal roles please.

Of course.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  mikuniman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 278

2/09/13 2:20:21 PM#71
Originally posted by SuperNick

I think Rift did an awesome job of including the trinity but not being restrictive.

Hey you're a rogue, well, we need a healer. OK, you can swap to bard.

Ouch, this fight requires a HoT based healer? OK, our cleric will swap specs quickly.

I think the days of "this is your spec and class, deal with it" are over. Pretty much since WoW mainstreamed the dual spec system, every MMO has duplicated it and often done a better job.

Originally posted by cura
I dont like trinity. Encounters feels artificial and unheroic

Also, I hope you're not suggesting GW2 was an improvement though? It was the worst group-based content i've ever seen in my life.

Infact, show me a (Not GW2) successful themepark MMO that didn't have a trinity system.

 

It is less restrictive with so many class builds but still boiled down to someone tanking and someone healing.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/09/13 2:23:43 PM#72
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by XAPGames

Role based grouping with aggro mechanics?  Yes please.

Additonal roles please.

Of course.

Even WoW's near sibling (by opening date) managed at least 5 roles. But I don't see that option on the survey.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 401

2/09/13 2:25:18 PM#73
Originally posted by mikuniman

It is less restrictive with so many class builds but still boiled down to someone tanking and soemone healing.

That's what a lot of people enjoy though. They enjoy focusing on a specific role to combine with a group (teamwork) and achieve something. I think the general consensus on people who do like roles is that we could do with more diversity instead of the same old 3.

I guess to me, the role choices of group content is a staple feature of an MMO; it really isn't something you can do away with and hope to achieve the same results as a role system. Much like we seen with GW2 really - sure, it worked somewhat but it really wasn't that enjoyable.

It would be like trying to play an RTS game where you only play as one unit.. well, it's not really an RTS anymore, it's now a MOBA. So in that light, an MMO with no trinity and no real progression suddenly just becomes an action RPG instead that you enjoy for a bit and move on.

  Azrile

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 2615

2/09/13 2:28:54 PM#74
Originally posted by Sodahz
It limits the PVE aspect in GW2 without a trinity.

This is what I think also.   Without a trinity (especially a tank), you really tie the hands of the developers on how they can develop boss fights.  

 I think many people dislike the trinity not because of the trinity, but because some early games had problems adopting it.  In WOW for instance, tanking was very demanding for the first 3 minutes, then very boring for the next 5.  It generally forced people into being leaders, who don´t have the personality for it.  Healing was a very thankless job that was only noticed when something went wrong.  It is also a little demanding in that you can´t take a breather mid-fight and áutoshoot´ like most dps can.  DPS are always considered less important than healer and tanks, and generally always are the ones getting sat for raids, or having long queue times for random content.

For a diable type game,  not having a trinity is fine.  But for a progressive MMO with pve tiers,  boss fights are just boring without a trinity and the intricacies that the devs can throw into an encounter.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/09/13 2:32:15 PM#75
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by XAPGames

Role based grouping with aggro mechanics?  Yes please.

Additonal roles please.

Of course.

Even WoW's near sibling (by opening date) managed at least 5 roles. But I don't see that option on the survey.

yea just 3 roles is way to restrictive for me.. i like at least adding a support role and at least allow players to play multiple roles with the same character..

 

also just noticed your sig lol nice:P

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

2/09/13 2:32:59 PM#76
My answer?  It's not even gone, and never was, so why would I want it "back"?.  So there was a game without the holy trinity.  That doesn't mean there can't be games without it, especially since it's been proven they can be more profitable than many games that incorproate the trinity.  Variety is a great thing.  I'll just play both kinds and be happy.
  StoneRoses

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/09
Posts: 911

2/09/13 2:33:01 PM#77
Necro Wellmancers and Ele Aura Mastery can be tanky,... you don't need no stinky Guardian.

You need folks who know how to play their professions and how to use their Combo Fields.

Many folks go on to play not knowing WTF Combo Fields are, not understanding what a huge benefit this is.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4113

2/09/13 2:33:32 PM#78
Personally, while I like GW2 to a degree, I'm not a fan of it's group mechanics at all.  It took playing without the Trinity to realize that I really enjoyed being a certain focus in a party.  Thank you GW2 for showing me what I should have known all along, ever since FFXI where party role was pivotal to playing the game and made it awesome and built community.

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  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

2/09/13 2:35:25 PM#79
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by XAPGames

Role based grouping with aggro mechanics?  Yes please.

Additonal roles please.

Of course.

Even WoW's near sibling (by opening date) managed at least 5 roles. But I don't see that option on the survey.

 Lotro has the rogue and champion class which is a...debuffer/buffer style I suppose, that is one of the more recent western examples of non trinity rolls. EQ had a lot, I remember bards and rangers being very well done. I am playing age of wushu which doesn't have a healer but does have several schools considered tanky and a few considered buffy, but I would say it is mostly trinity free.

 

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2820

2/09/13 2:36:50 PM#80

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support. GW2 removed tanks and healers and all that's left is DPS.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

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