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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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421 posts found
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3712

2/09/13 1:41:12 PM#21
What I dont like in GW2 is in dungeons people run from boss to boss not playing. Some run in one direction and others in another in this zurg game play style. I think this is partly because of no trinity. I would try another non-trinity game agian if teams had some other dynamic that made people work together with tatics. Trinity has that down pat so for now Im looking for a trinity game. I have no MMO home right now and a little put out bu that fact.
  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

2/09/13 1:47:51 PM#22

The weird thing is GW2 do have holy trinity in a sense.

Guardian is by far the best class in high level dungeon(fotm) because it is the best defensive class.  So every group would want 1 or more guadian for high level dungeon.

And warrior is by far the best dps class, so people apparently "only" invite warrior for speed run.

So unless every class have the same defense and dps capability, there will always be 1 class outshine in certain situation.  Where as in holy trinity you don't have those problem.  Because the healer rely on dps rely on the tank, everyone is doing different things.

 

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1915

2/09/13 1:47:52 PM#23
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
I want trinity back? i didn't know it was gone anywhere ;) having a blast in a lot of MMOS which are trinity based. currently playing a tank in AOC, EQ2 and Vanguard. And TESO and neverwinter both are trinity based so nope it isn't going to just disappear. Although GW2 fans would want you to believe that it will.

I don't think all us say or think that at all.  In fact I'm sure it won't either becuase it's to much of a comfort blanket for a lot of people.  Until more people can think outside the box or play games in a different way instead of the tried and true trinity, quest hub, gear grind and raid, games will keep being churned out the same old, same old.  However, at least a lot of us will have more options to scratch all those itches.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  cyandk

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 142

2/09/13 1:51:11 PM#24

The gw2 dungeon feels like a mess and is easy and random at the same time.

 

I would love to see no more games using this kind of hybrid. I would however like all classes to fill each role.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

2/09/13 1:52:44 PM#25
I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/09/13 1:57:47 PM#26
Originally posted by Latronus
I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

very much agree.. trinity combat in MMOs is extremely boring to me after playing games without it.. maybe some of the new games with more trinity based combat will have some new ideas to spice things up more..

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15994

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/09/13 1:58:13 PM#27
It depends on what the game is trying to achieve. Some games are better fit to a trinity system, some are better fit toward a hybrid (or something else entirely). I don't feel there's one system that's best for all games, they all have their place (audience) be it turn-based, FPS, TPS, Trinity, etc...

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

2/09/13 2:00:05 PM#28
No trinity! Finally don't have to deal with lfhealer/tank...


  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15994

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/09/13 2:02:11 PM#29
Originally posted by Latronus
I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

The way I've always looked at it is, who can take more damage a guy in plate armor or a guy in robes? If you're wearing plate armor and a friend is in robes, would you not try and get attention off of your friend? I guess it's all in how you look at it...

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Deddpool

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 191

2/09/13 2:02:41 PM#30

Ya I'm all for the trinity but only in dungeons/groups etc.  I think having a way to solo stuff outside of groups is a better idea.  Like I love to tank, but I don't like to solo with a tank.  And I don't mean just gear, I'd like to see pure trinity "modes" you can select shen running stuff.   Maybe something like your shield does X amount of damage when solo and X amount of threat when grouped, I dunno. 

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

2/09/13 2:03:32 PM#31

I'm not yet convinced MMOs need the trinity, although after playing GW2 for several months, I certainly see the limitations of GW2's particular implementation of a combat system that attempts to deviate from the traditional trinity setup.  I'd be lying if I said I haven't found myself missing traditional roles from time to time, where you actually know what the other classes are bringing to the table and you can feel their impact from pull to pull.  

The biggest thing I find myself missing are those moments of memorable heroism, where you make a spectacular play and everyone knows it.  They thank you.  They cheer in vent.  They at least acknowledge it in some form.  "Holy shit! That was amazing!"  In 5 months, that hasn't happened to me once in GW2's PvE, and there's not a dungeon wing I haven't completed.  I mean there are plays to be made.  It's just that between the spell-effect firework display, kiting, dodging, and lack of hard CC, everything's just a little too chaotic for everyone to notice with the other 4 party members are doing.  You can try to heal and drop a water field on someone, but chances are they'll just run out of it because they're in nervous twitch flight mode.

The mechanics they have bosses perform also seem to be limited in the absence of the trinity.  Some fights involve strategic uses of the environment and are basically simple puzzles, and that's awesome--I wouldn't mind seeing this aspect become more elaborated--but those fights are largely independent of the combat system.  They would work like that regardless of the type of combat the game had.  

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/09/13 2:05:18 PM#32
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Latronus
I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

The way I've always looked at it is, who can take more damage a guy in plate armor or a guy in robes? If you're wearing plate armor and a friend is in robes, would you not try and get attention off of your friend? I guess it's all in how you look at it...

i can see this but thats still how non trinity systems usually work.. guy with plate can take more hits and tries to get in the way to take some hits or control the fight.. in a trinity i find the aggro mechanic silly as you can watch mobs walk past a whole slew of easy pickins squishy players and b-line right to a taunting tank... then like kuppa said above i MUCH prefer seeing looking for "one" more than having to sit and wait for tank/healer specifically

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  simmihi

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 527

2/09/13 2:07:25 PM#33
Originally posted by Latronus
I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

Well, without holy trinity, everybody throws insults, unfortunately at each other :)

The trinity creates responsibility. No one likes to be his fault when the party dies.

Unrealistic? Compared to what? In a war, every entity has its clear role. You won't see an army pushing with the artillery in the front row.

  Uldah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 165

2/09/13 2:07:54 PM#34

In my opinion it depends how well implemented it is.

Even tought i love to tank in all mmos, i respect what GW tryed to do.

Both sides have its pros and cons obviously.

 

That being said is always hard to have the perfect balance were you can be a good do it all , or a specialised role.

The main problem with specialised role is people only wants those roles(wich by my play style is completly fine) but then comes the problems of avaliability of those classes needed.

Then you have on the other side the do it all classes, were no1 have a defined role and the meaning for partying decays after a while.

 

I think there are on the same game the 2 cases.

take ffxi and ffxiv for example.

 

FFXI did the trinity flawlesly , not taling bout the game , but before it became easy , everyclass had their good and cons, missions were one class prevailed over others, etc etc.

Apart from the dificulty/grindy type ffxi was on its days , the concept they had was basic, classes were unique and served their porpouse every now and then , even the so called nerfed classes.

 

Then you have the initial FFXIV( yea whatever they re-booting , but lets take a look at classed as they were)

Do it all in any class so badly inplemented that almost was imposible to determine what exactly was the point of being one class or the other.

 

So that brings me back to my first statement.

All it matters is how it is implemented, and obviously it is easier(not easy) to have a better group based game with the holy trinity than with a do it all classes, 

 

especially when it comes to PVE and strategy based groups , 

  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2912

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

2/09/13 2:09:53 PM#35

Well to be fair to NOT having the trinity, GW2 did a pretty poor job at implimenting it. It 'lacks' the trinity and yet forces on its own trinity (which is just the old trinity in its rawest form, Support (Healer basically of sorts), CC (Tank Essencially), Damage)

Still, even if it was done right I'd almost assume that it would end up trivializing content in order to fit all group styles. Its quite hard to cut out the trinity when you want to support group dynamics and specially if you want to fill everyones 'desires' in terms of what they want to play. The trinity itself exists because it fits in with play styles of people and allows for more group dynamics. You can modify and work around the trinity into your own forms (for example games like Aion or Rift takes on a "Tank, Healer, Damage, Support" type format with support usually providing suppliment heals and/or buffs/debuffs that boost the group). Its NOT a bad thing, its all about adapting and chaning up the way it functions in order to make each role feel unique and different.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15994

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/09/13 2:10:41 PM#36
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Distopia
 

The way I've always looked at it is, who can take more damage a guy in plate armor or a guy in robes? If you're wearing plate armor and a friend is in robes, would you not try and get attention off of your friend? I guess it's all in how you look at it...

i can see this but thats still how non trinity systems usually work.. guy with plate can take more hits and tries to get in the way to take some hits or control the fight.. in a trinity i find the aggro mechanic silly as you can watch mobs walk past a whole slew of easy pickins squishy players and b-line right to a taunting tank... then like kuppa said above i MUCH prefer seeing looking for "one" more than having to sit and wait for tank/healer specifically

Of course the waiting game can be frustrating, this is usually a symptom of having too few class choices IMO, this was never really a problem in a game like SWG with it's skill based profession system. However in games with class based progression, there needs to be a good amount of options, vanguard is a good example of it done right. AOC wasn't too bad either as each base class had a few options for loadout and combat style.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  ghorgos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 133

2/09/13 2:16:51 PM#37

For me both trinity and gw2-hybrid-system are bad but if i have to choose i would prefer the trinity. 

Much better system would be an advanced trinity with more than tank+heal+dps but limited roles per class.

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1915

2/09/13 2:17:15 PM#38
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Latronus
I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

The way I've always looked at it is, who can take more damage a guy in plate armor or a guy in robes? If you're wearing plate armor and a friend is in robes, would you not try and get attention off of your friend? I guess it's all in how you look at it...

Haha, I know what you are saying but in "reality" getting a fireball to the face will probably hurt with or with out armor.  Besides, if the guy in robes is just a random schmuck that I joined up with to kill a monster to get it's loot, then I would probably care less if he got beat on.  That just means less loot I will have to split.  I would also be thinking on why he decided to wear robes instead of armor. 

As far as I know, D&D/Wizards of the Coast were the ones who decided wizards can't wear armor in games probably becuase that's how Tolkien described Gandalf.  The funny thing is though, at least as far as I can remember, D&D didn't even have a trinity system.  Sure there has been a "taunt" skill for the longest time in D&D, but it was not designed to grab agro but just to lower a  creature's defenses.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  RebornDragon

Novice Member

Joined: 12/30/05
Posts: 115

2/09/13 2:17:50 PM#39

I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.

 

This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.

 

Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging. 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15994

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/09/13 2:20:16 PM#40
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Distopia

The way I've always looked at it is, who can take more damage a guy in plate armor or a guy in robes? If you're wearing plate armor and a friend is in robes, would you not try and get attention off of your friend? I guess it's all in how you look at it...

Haha, I know what you are saying but in "reality" getting a fireball to the face will probably hurt with or with out armor.  Besides, if the guy in robes is just a random schmuck that I joined up with to kill a monster to get it's loot, then I would probably care less if he got beat on.  That just means less loot I will have to split.  I would also be thinking on why he decided to wear robes instead of armor. 

As far as I know, D&D/Wizards of the Coast were the ones who decided wizards can't wear armor in games probably becuase that's how Tolkien described Gandalf.  The funny thing is though, at least as far as I can remember, D&D didn't even have a trinity system.  Sure there has been a "taunt" skill for the longest time in D&D, but it was designed to grab agro but just to lower a  creature's defenses.

ROFl..

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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