Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.

Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".

Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?

Flame on!

:)

Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?

Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?

If some people like it, then include it as an option.

So now tell me .. which way is it?

a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or

b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.

 

Who is "we"?

Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.

EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you coudl pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of sitting. Again, options.

But why do you even need an excuse to talk to people or socialize or do something else?  You can just as easily just stop for a couple minutes to chat.

These issues seem to be more that the community is worse than the games.  Inconvenience won't solve intolerable people, they'll just be intolerable and you'll be forced to deal with them.

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

I don't see inconvenience solving that.  You'd have to ban guilds and VOIP and everyone that uses general chats to argue or out shockvalue each other.

MMOs and their communities have evolved past the days of everyone being on hugging terms due to having a rep to protect in the limited community of their chosen game.

OMG...WHERE did I say anything about inconvenience being needed? That is ridiculous! What are you even talking about?

Please read what I wrote. Other than having just a 20 minutes boat ride as some suggested...you could have things to do OTHER than just chatting with other passengers available on the ship as an alternative to that.

Or you could just nix the boat ride and go fish off the shore.  The topic is inconvenience needing to be in MMOs so I assumed we were still discussing that and not activities to justify riding a boat.

My apoloigies.

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.

Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".

Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?

Flame on!

:)

Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?

Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?

If some people like it, then include it as an option.

So now tell me .. which way is it?

a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or

b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.

 

Who is "we"?

Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.

EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you coudl pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of sitting. Again, options.

But why do you even need an excuse to talk to people or socialize or do something else?  You can just as easily just stop for a couple minutes to chat.

These issues seem to be more that the community is worse than the games.  Inconvenience won't solve intolerable people, they'll just be intolerable and you'll be forced to deal with them.

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

I don't see inconvenience solving that.  You'd have to ban guilds and VOIP and everyone that uses general chats to argue or out shockvalue each other.

MMOs and their communities have evolved past the days of everyone being on hugging terms due to having a rep to protect in the limited community of their chosen game.

OMG...WHERE did I say anything about inconvenience being needed? That is ridiculous! What are you even talking about?

Please read what I wrote. Other than having just a 20 minutes boat ride as some suggested...you could have things to do OTHER than just chatting with other passengers available on the ship as an alternative to that.

Or you could just nix the boat ride and go fish off the shore.  The topic is inconvenience needing to be in MMOs so I assumed we were still discussing that and not activities to justify riding a boat.

My apoloigies.

I was just using the boat ride as an example of mixing old and new to make it better, not nixing it all together as having portal, mounts, and ships adds more options and makes that old feature better and more modern. No worries.

Originally posted by Popori

I think the general idea of this thread is:

C) I like inconvenience and want everyone else to like it too because my opinion is that it makes MMOs worth playing and more engaging despite the opinions of others.

Well .. try to convince others to like what you like is a fool's errand, particularly on the internet. That is not going to happen.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

 

Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.

EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you could pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of nothing but sitting and waiting. Again, options.....a mix of old and new. Innovate an old feature, not just trash it.

Sure .. you can have all of those on the boat .. and a teleport. For those who don't feel like fishing, games, or what-not on the boat, they can skip all of it.

Once again, choices. Not everyone wants to fish (or whatever mini-games) for 20 min when they need to go from point A to B.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

If people don't want to chat, why force them? It is just a game.

They should have the option of chatting, and not. There are millions of players. You can always find some who want to chat. You don't need everyone to chat with you, do you?

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

I can like that airport security exists but still not enjoy being searched.

The way you are suggesting we could remove most features from most games, who likes dying for example? Do you? Sould we remove it completely?

Flame on!

:)

By what i read here, i thought lots of people like dying (with little penalty) to highlight the challenge.

In fact, some even like perma death ... just look at how many hard core toons are created on D3.

But i digress. If enough people like 20 min boat ride, put it in. Don't take away the option of fast traveling. Just like D3. If you like perma death, play hard core. If you like no death, play MP0 soft core. More people are happy.

No one says take anything away if there is some preferes it. The point is to have all the options.

Are you against having choices?

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Popori

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.

Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".

Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?

Flame on!

:)

Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?

Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?

If some people like it, then include it as an option.

So now tell me .. which way is it?

a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or

b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.

 

Who is "we"?

Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.

EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you coudl pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of sitting. Again, options.

But why do you even need an excuse to talk to people or socialize or do something else?  You can just as easily just stop for a couple minutes to chat.

These issues seem to be more that the community is worse than the games.  Inconvenience won't solve intolerable people, they'll just be intolerable and you'll be forced to deal with them.

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

I don't see inconvenience solving that.  You'd have to ban guilds and VOIP and everyone that uses general chats to argue or out shockvalue each other.

MMOs and their communities have evolved past the days of everyone being on hugging terms due to having a rep to protect in the limited community of their chosen game.

OMG...WHERE did I say anything about inconvenience being needed? That is ridiculous! What are you even talking about?

Please read what I wrote. Other than having just a 20 minutes boat ride as some suggested...you could have things to do OTHER than just chatting with other passengers available on the ship as an alternative to that.

Or you could just nix the boat ride and go fish off the shore.  The topic is inconvenience needing to be in MMOs so I assumed we were still discussing that and not activities to justify riding a boat.

My apoloigies.

I was just using the boat ride as an example of mixing old and new to make it better, not nixing it all together as having portal, mounts, and ships adds more options and makes that old feature better and more modern. No worries.

And I think FFXI had a boat mechanic similar to what you're talking about.  You'd randomly be attacked on the boat rides and could fish off the sides (chance to pull up big evil monsters too), that was pretty cool.

I'm in no way opposed to those or do I see them as inconvenience.  I get where you're coming from.  If it serves a logical purpose, fine.  If its a 20minute boat ride to keep you in the game for 20minutes or simply force you to talk, its a silly useless mechanic.  Much like 6 minute health regens used to be.

EQ used to have tons of downtime.  You know what I'd do with that downtime?  Walk away from the PC.  It didn't make me more of a community member, it made me able to do less with the time I paid for to play the game.

Keep your inconvenience, give me depth.

(not all in direct response to the goatgod)

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

If people don't want to chat, why force them? It is just a game.

They should have the option of chatting, and not. There are millions of players. You can always find some who want to chat. You don't need everyone to chat with you, do you?

I didn't say anything about forcing them to chat.

Do you even read and comprehend what's said before responding? He said people can just stop and chat if they want...which is true. But my response was asking how often you really see players do that these days with the way MMORPG's are. It still happens, but rarely.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

If people don't want to chat, why force them? It is just a game.

They should have the option of chatting, and not. There are millions of players. You can always find some who want to chat. You don't need everyone to chat with you, do you?

I didn't say anything about forcing them to chat.

Do you even read and comprehend what's said before responding? He said peopel can just stop and chat if they want...which is true. But my responce was asking how often you really see players do that these days with the way MMORPG's are. It still happens, but rarely.

You imply you want to change that. If you are just stating that people rarely chat .. then i agree. Sure. That is an indication that they don't want to chat.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

If people don't want to chat, why force them? It is just a game.

They should have the option of chatting, and not. There are millions of players. You can always find some who want to chat. You don't need everyone to chat with you, do you?

I didn't say anything about forcing them to chat.

Do you even read and comprehend what's said before responding? He said peopel can just stop and chat if they want...which is true. But my responce was asking how often you really see players do that these days with the way MMORPG's are. It still happens, but rarely.

You imply you want to change that. If you are just stating that people rarely chat .. then i agree. Sure. That is an indication that they don't want to chat.

I'm stating people rarely chat anymore.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

I'm stating people rarely chat anymore.

Very clear. There is no disagreement. They don't. I also take that as a sign that people prefer not to chat. Personally, i don't play games to chat either.

But i also want to note that the choice of chatting is always there. In fact, you have chat channels in most online games, even in non-MMOs. So it is not a lack of ability to do so.

Lastly, from my observation, people chat all the time. I was just playing D3 last night (admittedly not a MMO) but the general chat channel is non-stop.

When you make MMOs for a type of gamer who has the attention span of a 2-4 yr old child, you can't help wonder why continuning to make games for this demographic just for them to consume and dump the game in 1-3 months. As past releases have shown in the last 7 yrs this is exactly what has happened. With words like accessabiliy and "our design inspiration was WoW" being thrown around constanly in almost every MMORPG in development.

How many more "Training Wheels=Beginner MMOs" do we really need ? Are people ready to take a  larger step into more diverse options in MMOs? Are they ready for the unecessary conviences to be scaled back a bit to present a little more dependence on other players? Do we really need every game to be like WoW?

I don't really believe there is any more new gamers to grab with newer games any one that has played MMO's or is still playing is exactly done or doing that. Its time to get creative again, it's time to stop holding hands.

A MMORPG is a time commitment in itself if you don't have time to commit why should a game be designed around a person who play 30 min up to 8 hours a week? Then it isn't a MMO anymore it's a co-op with a lobby chat all for those people who can't be bothered to give up that reality show for the week to put a lil time into a game.

I'm done ranting.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

If people don't want to chat, why force them? It is just a game.

They should have the option of chatting, and not. There are millions of players. You can always find some who want to chat. You don't need everyone to chat with you, do you?

I didn't say anything about forcing them to chat.

Do you even read and comprehend what's said before responding? He said peopel can just stop and chat if they want...which is true. But my responce was asking how often you really see players do that these days with the way MMORPG's are. It still happens, but rarely.

You imply you want to change that. If you are just stating that people rarely chat .. then i agree. Sure. That is an indication that they don't want to chat.

Nariuss, you say 'why force them?' as if you must force players if you wish to get them to engage in chat.  Thats a false dichotomy.  When I think of games that I enjoyed chatting with people in, I was never forced to chat, I did it because I wanted to.  

Why did I want to chat then but not now?  Because the gameplay revolved around social community-driven storytelling instead of leveling or developer writen story arcs.  The obvious example to point to is SWG.  I have never seen a game with so much casual banter within the game, and it was all thanks to the games conent revolving around creating a world to interact with others in, as opposed to what we see today which is more attune to a single player game you can see others playing as you play.

There seem to be a lot of posts on this thread with the general flavor, "Well not everyone wants to be inconvenienced.  I don't want to sit on a boat or.... blah, blah, blah, etc."  Sure, fine.  Perhaps the game the OP is looking for just isn't for you.  We don't necessarily need a game with both boats AND portals.  I think what we really need are more niche games.  If there was a game with more inconvenience that most other people would probably like I would play it.  There are others that would play it too.  It would be a game for people looking for that kind of a game.  That's ok.  In fact, it's great!  It's wonderful that there are both side scrollers and 3d games.  It's fantastic that there are RPG's and Shoot'em Ups.  It would be awesome if there were MMOs with portals (convenience) AND MMOs with boats (a bit more inconvenience).  The mind set that every MMO has to be everything for everyone is killing the genre as more and more MMOs excel at fewer and fewer things in an attempt to have every single possible feature ever imagined in the world.

I, for one, hope we get one or two strategically inconvenient games (ok, not boats, I hate boats).  I also hope that there continue to be games for people who are looking for portals.  Here's to happiness for everyone.

Originally posted by hraeth

There seem to be a lot of posts on this thread with the general flavor, "Well not everyone wants to be inconvenienced.  I don't want to sit on a boat or.... blah, blah, blah, etc."  Sure, fine.  Perhaps the game the OP is looking for just isn't for you.  We don't necessarily need a game with both boats AND portals.  I think what we really need are more niche games.  If there was a game with more inconvenience that most other people would probably like I would play it.  There are others that would play it too.  It would be a game for people looking for that kind of a game.  That's ok.  In fact, it's great!  It's wonderful that there are both side scrollers and 3d games.  It's fantastic that there are RPG's and Shoot'em Ups.  It would be awesome if there were MMOs with portals (convenience) AND MMOs with boats (a bit more inconvenience).  The mind set that every MMO has to be everything for everyone is killing the genre as more and more MMOs excel at fewer and fewer things in an attempt to have every single possible feature ever imagined in the world.

I, for one, hope we get one or two strategically inconvenient games (ok, not boats, I hate boats).  I also hope that there continue to be games for people who are looking for portals.  Here's to happiness for everyone.

Sure, that would be great.

Good luck finding a company and publisher willing to risk a gigantic number of subs for a chance at being that one game that is different.

Ask Darkfall, Xsyon, Mortal, and similar games how its working out for them.

I've come to the conclusion that 90% of MMO players have no clue what exactly it is that they want.  Give them A, they'll leave because you don't have enough B.

Again, I like these in-depth games that you can lose yourself in for years.  And I hope some indie dev will take the idea and run with it.

I don't see a Triple A studio wasting dev resources on it when the FOTM is themepark joyrides.

I think most folks here are arguing fitting both in the same game as that would be the most likely scenario where everyone ends up happy and a larger company could take the bait.

Edit:  And take a look back at 2005 posts to see what everyone was claiming to want.  Thats where we are now.  Tons of posts for solo friendly games etc.

The market will shift again one day and we may see a rise in these types of games.  As it stands, we're the niche market posting "LF group oriented game."

Originally posted by Popori
 

The market will shift again one day and we may see a rise in these types of games.  As it stands, we're the niche market posting "LF group oriented game."

With...

character interdependence

risk versus reward

open ended gameplay

free-roaming self-directed play

more activity than just gear grind

and last but not least...  a sense of satisfaction from earned achievement.

Did I miss anything?

Originally posted by XAPGames

Originally posted by Popori
 

The market will shift again one day and we may see a rise in these types of games.  As it stands, we're the niche market posting "LF group oriented game."

 

With...

character interdependence

risk versus reward

open ended gameplay

free-roaming self-directed play

more activity than just gear grind

and last but not least...  a sense of satisfaction from earned achievement.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Give or take meaningful death penalty you silly goose.

Originally posted by Popori

I think the general idea of this thread is:

C) I like inconvenience and want everyone else to like it too because my opinion is that it makes MMOs worth playing and more engaging despite the opinions of others.

I think that's a lot of it.  There are lots of people who want to force others to play as they do, simply so they'll have a lot of people to play with.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

Why should anyone just stop and chat for no reason with a complete stranger that you probably have nothing in common with?  You seem to think this is something that ought to happen all the time.  Why?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Popori

I think the general idea of this thread is:

C) I like inconvenience and want everyone else to like it too because my opinion is that it makes MMOs worth playing and more engaging despite the opinions of others.

I think that's a lot of it.  There are lots of people who want to force others to play as they do, simply so they'll have a lot of people to play with.

I see that as the falacy of the notiion of an inconvenient AAA developed MMORPG.  With 4 or 5 years in development cycle and typical games carrying 20 gigs of artwork, I don't see any major going "Oh, let's make our game cater to a niche market so it pisses off the bulk of the MMORPG population."  They want 2 million box sales and 500,000 subscribers for the year, then flip it to free to play and milk it for another 4 years.  In the current market, I just don't see that happening.