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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » A Players Bill of Rights.

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50 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  2/05/13 12:04:07 PM#1

Yes it is true here is a blog that gives us a point of view from Graham Nelson who created Craft of Adventure Five articles on the design of adventure games. Also "creator of the Inform design system for creating interactive fiction (IF) games. Despite its age and obscurity, the Player's Bill of Rights is still an elegant, relevant view of game design and the player's experience. Many of its core messages hold up well in today's game design environment."

This is why I am posting this here at the pug since I feel that todays. DEVS need to all read Grahams essay and take heed. One can only imagine how much better quality of MMO's we would have to day.

I have few points that I personaly feel that should be applied in every MMO.

1. "Not to be killed without warning. clearly that insta-death wasn't fun, even if that death was the result of a bad decision from the player. We made a set of changes to help give players a second to assess the situation and react."

2. "Not to be given horribly unclear direction or asked to do unlikely things."

In the original Bill of Rights, these were two rules: one about unclear hints, and a second about needing to do unlikely things." I mean come on now that should be a given but how many times have you scratched your head while questing and ask yourself WTF?

3. "To be able to win without experience of past lives or future events." How Many times will it take to beat a raid boss?

4. "Not to have the game closed off without warning." I cant think of any application to MMO gaming for this rule?

5. "Not to need to do boring things for the sake of it." One word GRINDING.

6. "Not to have to figure out an unspecified or unclear interaction."

"When you give a player a tool, you're making a promise. You, the developer, promise the tool will work in a predictable way, usually with an associated risk and reward. You're also promising there are instances in the game where that tool will be clearly valuable.

In a good game, your goals and instructions are clear and provide the set-up to a given challenge or level. In a great game, the entire game world communicates to you. It broadcasts what you need to do (your goal), how you might get there (clear or subtle paths and obstacles) and which tools will be most useful in this specific scenario."

7. "To have decent, clear controls and UI." Todays DEVs still understand this one.

8. "Not to depend much on luck." The word faceroll comes to mind.

9. "To be able to understand a problem once it is solved. The key loop for player satisfaction in terms of strategy is ensuring players understand a problem once it's solved, and on the flip side that they understand what led to any failures."

10. "Not to have too many dead ends. You can never erase the feeling of being lost even when the player wasn't actually lost."

11. "To know how the game is getting on." Two words End Game.

12. "To receive good value for money spent."

This is an addition to the Bill of Rights because I think it gets overlooked in today's world of freemium and free games.

For games that come with a fixed price tag, it comes down to the perceived value of the experience provided. Some players translate this into hours of gameplay but it's really about the quality of the experience (along with replayability). As a whole, developers have been in the business long enough that we have a sense for how we should price our games.

In freemium and free games, though, we're still figuring it out. Social games are at the far end of the spectrum. It's easy--and somewhat common--to spend $50 to buy about 15 minutes worth of game time. Not many players are willing to spend that kind of money, and even fewer will consider it money well spent that they'd be happy to spend on a regular basis."

This last one is a age old argument P2P vs F2P Intreasting that Graham had thoughts on this very subject back in '95.

 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/05/13 12:21:28 PM#2

I find that as I skim the list, it reminds me of the huge number of little things games tend to do so much better and more cleanly now compared to games of a generation ago.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

2/05/13 12:29:55 PM#3

Misunderstanding of a doc on game design resulting in misuse as a platform for F2P rant.

I am disappoint.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2565

2/05/13 12:31:21 PM#4
Your bill of rights steps on most of the EULA's that game makers use. Guess who would win in court?

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Razperil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/04
Posts: 307

Everything has it's time and its place, know yours?

2/05/13 12:42:45 PM#5
There are "no" Bills of rights in any game. You agree to their terms, period. Some of these rights are laughable as is. I'm sure this was just a skit, and maybe a possible out-cry because you and this blogger "think" you are entitled to these things and more. Apparently, reality comes hard for some. :) Good luck in your thought of "rights", nonetheless.
  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/05/13 12:51:54 PM#6
Originally posted by Razperil
Good luck in your thought of "rights", nonetheless.

@Razpenil ... I think your imagination may have jumped the wrong conclusion when you saw the title.  It's a list of talking points about various irritants in design, not a "we demand rights" rant.

  User Deleted
 
OP  2/05/13 12:55:04 PM#7
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Razperil
Good luck in your thought of "rights", nonetheless.

@Razpenil ... I think your imagination may have jumped the wrong conclusion when you saw the title.  It's a list of talking points about various irritants in design, not a "we demand rights" rant.

 TY for getting the real purpose of this thread.

  Edeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 513

2/05/13 1:08:58 PM#8

Entertaining.

I think #8 is talking less about facerolling and more about RNG in general.  Ever played a game where Random Number Generators were in literally every equation used?  From crit, to loot drops, to monster spawns, to crafting, to monster damage, to PVP damage, to rewards... literally EVERYTHING!  It can get annoying really quick!

 

Luck in facerolling is just crits stacking up at once, but that hardly scratches the surface of luck based systems ;)

Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/05/13 1:26:25 PM#9
Originally posted by Edeus
Ever played a game where Random Number Generators were in literally every equation used?

I tend to see RNG as a core philosophy of these games.

The way I look at it, RNG is the sum of everything the game mechanics can't simulate but still should affect the outcome.  In a way, every mechanic is starting with "roll a die" and just fleshing it out with layer upon layer of details that I can control and compensate for if I wish to focus my attention on it.  But deep down, RNG is still going to be there, once I've burrowed to the bottom of the game mechanics.  So to me, if you can ever reduce an MMO to a game of chess with a completely deterministic outcome, you've dug too far and seen too much.  On the other hand, if there are a lot of people like you who are constantly running into a wall of RNG that you want to do something about, I do think that's a sign that the game mechanics need to go deeper, offering you another layer of complexity to explore.

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

2/05/13 5:49:01 PM#10
Almost nothing on that list is applicable to MMOs. Interactive fiction adventure games were almost entirely about figuring things out. That was the main mode of gameplay. That doesn't translate well to a genre where thousands of other players share the gamespace with you. I feel like you understood neither the original list in the text document nor the updated list on the blog.

  Scottgun

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/07
Posts: 350

2/05/13 5:50:19 PM#11
This is not asking for rights, it's asking for entitlements.

How not to sell me on a game: "And most people that make it past the tutorial seem to appreciate [x game's] uniqueness, even if they don't find it fun."

  aRtFuLThinG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1116

2/05/13 5:58:14 PM#12

I think people need to get their priorities straight. Bill of rights for games? lol.

A company has the right to make any product the way they feel like. You have to right to not buy them, buy something else and say their product is crap.

Sellers and producers are NOT your slaves and servants - they don't have to make things to customers exacting specifications. The WANT to because they want to make money - however they also have the right to be douchebags, don't care about making money and make whatever they want.

Some people really, REALLY need to get this concept through their heads.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

2/05/13 7:45:36 PM#13

You have no rights.  There is a game.  If you want to play the game, go ahead.  If you don't like the way the game is played, stop playing.

Those are your only rights.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  User Deleted
 
OP  2/05/13 10:22:40 PM#14
Originally posted by Disdena
Almost nothing on that list is applicable to MMOs. Interactive fiction adventure games were almost entirely about figuring things out. That was the main mode of gameplay. That doesn't translate well to a genre where thousands of other players share the gamespace with you. I feel like you understood neither the original list in the text document nor the updated list on the blog.

 I disagree, This is a essay written by a pioneer in the gaming field. If you read the artical you would realize this. This should be the standards for DEVs of all gaming. That also should include MMO gaming.

  User Deleted
 
OP  2/05/13 10:24:56 PM#15
Originally posted by Cephus404

You have no rights.  There is a game.  If you want to play the game, go ahead.  If you don't like the way the game is played, stop playing.

Those are your only rights.

 I disagree, customer service should always be number one with any thing. Why Should I spend any of my money on any MMO game if I feel that I have no rights? I will not.

  Oracle_Fefe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/04/10
Posts: 219

Feethree

2/06/13 12:11:49 AM#16

First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games. They're made how they're made and if we do not like them we go find something else. Instead, these should be tips for future developers to keep an eye on to give players an enjoyable freedom.

Second, I believe the following:

3 is near-impossible in PvE due to the multiplayer aspect. You're bound to find out what to do by friends unless dungeons or raidlike content becomes a bit randomized (When is the dragon gonna come out. Will it fly from the clouds? Will it burst from the earth causing an underground fight?)

5 is interpreted stereotypically as "No more grinding" When in actuality it is "No more grinding that feels not rewarding and doesnt change many things"

I believe the major factor in #5 is the Does it change gameplay space? question. Most MMOs don't change the outlook of the world through grinding and thus all your work feels a bit meaningless. What if chopping trees in a game constantly ends up devoiding the area of trees, allowing you to remove the stumps and either turn it into a plantation of some sorts or even build a house a la The Lorax. (With enemies coming to break it down or ransack it.)

7 is probably the hardest to get right for some games. Will it be tab target with a billion different skills or just simply camera, health bars, and thats it? I think the main problem is that monitor UI's can only give so much and take so much screen coverage..There either has to be a balance or innovation to get it right.

8..It's all seeds. I honestly believe skill A should deal X damage normally, with extra damage hitting the head or less damage yet making the enemy studder if moving when hitting the legs. Something like Bloodline champions in several cases..

9 can be helped out here and there for several developers. I believe one of the best would be customizable skills so that Magic A is not simply Magic A. This could give creative content for some players to find combinations to defeat others and feel good that it works..the downside of course is that this leads to 'cookie cutter' builds and we all see what happens then.

 

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2324

2/06/13 3:03:02 AM#17
Originally posted by botrytis
Your bill of rights steps on most of the EULA's that game makers use. Guess who would win in court?

The party the Judge decides makes the best and most reasonable argument depending on the dispute and the circumstances.

Contrary to what many people tend to believe - an EULA is not overriding law.

If an EULA said "We may come to your house and chop your limbs off, at any time, without recourse." that does not mean a Developer could actually do that.

An EULA is a contract.  Contracts are disputed every day, in court.  And US Law does not apply outside the US (as US law)

 

To the OP:

I do see your point here, but a few of the things you ask for, like point 4, forget that games are owned by companies and cost money to maintain.  Someone has to pay for the game to operate.  So when companies go out of business or games become unprofitable - they close.

As for point 12 - I see you are from Arizona?  I would suggest to you that the consumer laws in your state and country are more at fault here than the games, developers or publishers.  For a remedy to this you should approach your government representatives.  The consumer laws of many other countries already address this.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  jonrd463

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 608

2/06/13 3:24:00 AM#18
Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by Cephus404

You have no rights.  There is a game.  If you want to play the game, go ahead.  If you don't like the way the game is played, stop playing.

Those are your only rights.

 I disagree, customer service should always be number one with any thing. Why Should I spend any of my money on any MMO game if I feel that I have no rights? I will not.

That, in principle is *precisely* your "bill of rights". Don't feel like a game satisfies your needs? Stop playing. Find something else. This touches on something else that pisses me off about modern gamers, and that is this notion that every game ever made must cater to every playstyle and interest. Period. From people complaining about a game that's brutal by design being "too haaaaarrrrd!!!", such as Dark Souls, to people complaining that a game like Darkfall doesn't have PvE worth mentioning. To me, it's like saying "Why doesn't this bicycle have 3 wheels!? I demand they add another wheel to this bicycle!!" Because... then it would be a tricycle...?

Sorry... went off on a tangent, but it is somewhat related to the whole entitlement angle. Yes, I know, the OP wasn't so much about petty entitlements people have, but enough people brought it up that it's worth talking about.

"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3881

RIP City of Heroes!

2/06/13 3:27:38 AM#19
Originally posted by Isturi

Yes it is true here is a blog that gives us a point of view from Graham Nelson who created Craft of Adventure Five articles on the design of adventure games. Also "creator of the Inform design system for creating interactive fiction (IF) games. Despite its age and obscurity, the Player's Bill of Rights is still an elegant, relevant view of game design and the player's experience. Many of its core messages hold up well in today's game design environment."

This is why I am posting this here at the pug since I feel that todays. DEVS need to all read Grahams essay and take heed. One can only imagine how much better quality of MMO's we would have to day.

I have few points that I personaly feel that should be applied in every MMO.

1. "Not to be killed without warning. clearly that insta-death wasn't fun, even if that death was the result of a bad decision from the player. We made a set of changes to help give players a second to assess the situation and react."

2. "Not to be given horribly unclear direction or asked to do unlikely things."

In the original Bill of Rights, these were two rules: one about unclear hints, and a second about needing to do unlikely things." I mean come on now that should be a given but how many times have you scratched your head while questing and ask yourself WTF?

3. "To be able to win without experience of past lives or future events." How Many times will it take to beat a raid boss?

4. "Not to have the game closed off without warning." I cant think of any application to MMO gaming for this rule?

5. "Not to need to do boring things for the sake of it." One word GRINDING.

6. "Not to have to figure out an unspecified or unclear interaction."

"When you give a player a tool, you're making a promise. You, the developer, promise the tool will work in a predictable way, usually with an associated risk and reward. You're also promising there are instances in the game where that tool will be clearly valuable.

In a good game, your goals and instructions are clear and provide the set-up to a given challenge or level. In a great game, the entire game world communicates to you. It broadcasts what you need to do (your goal), how you might get there (clear or subtle paths and obstacles) and which tools will be most useful in this specific scenario."

7. "To have decent, clear controls and UI." Todays DEVs still understand this one.

8. "Not to depend much on luck." The word faceroll comes to mind.

9. "To be able to understand a problem once it is solved. The key loop for player satisfaction in terms of strategy is ensuring players understand a problem once it's solved, and on the flip side that they understand what led to any failures."

10. "Not to have too many dead ends. You can never erase the feeling of being lost even when the player wasn't actually lost."

11. "To know how the game is getting on." Two words End Game.

12. "To receive good value for money spent."

This is an addition to the Bill of Rights because I think it gets overlooked in today's world of freemium and free games.

For games that come with a fixed price tag, it comes down to the perceived value of the experience provided. Some players translate this into hours of gameplay but it's really about the quality of the experience (along with replayability). As a whole, developers have been in the business long enough that we have a sense for how we should price our games.

In freemium and free games, though, we're still figuring it out. Social games are at the far end of the spectrum. It's easy--and somewhat common--to spend $50 to buy about 15 minutes worth of game time. Not many players are willing to spend that kind of money, and even fewer will consider it money well spent that they'd be happy to spend on a regular basis."

This last one is a age old argument P2P vs F2P Intreasting that Graham had thoughts on this very subject back in '95.

 

 Where is your list of responsibilities?

  jonrd463

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 608

2/06/13 3:30:02 AM#20
Originally posted by waynejr2
Where is your list of responsibilities?

You have no idea how much I wish MMORPG.com would add a "Like" or rating function to forum posts right now.

"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

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