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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Inconvenience is the Key

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246 posts found
  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

2/04/13 3:10:15 AM#61
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran
The quote from Raph Koster in my sig sums it up best, one man's inconvenience is another person's challenge. How are developers to know which of them to cater to? There in lies the real heart of the debate. Generally speaking they try to cater to the largest audience to maximize revenues/profits.

Surveys? Player responds and complains?

And of course they cater to the largest audience. Is there a reason to cater to the smallest?

Personlly, i don't play a game to travel. Given that there are millions playing MMOs, i doubt many share this "lack of motive to log on".

 

We have solo games with differant modes of gameplay. Movie, easy normal, hard and so on. Could we ever see this in MMO's on the same server? I don't know it would be a challenge. But what I do know is that solo games are catering to a larger audience. They are putting various gameplay levels of "inconvience" into their games.

And are you going to play on easy mode? Is that what you want in a MMO? If we have only one mode I would argue for a harder option, but if you can do it in solo games then multiple difficulty options may see the light of day in MMO's.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

2/04/13 2:12:18 PM#62
Originally posted by Goatgod76

I said crafted items better than mob drops yes...but that doesn't mean they still won't be of use.

True,  but you have to remember when you have one qualitatively better piece of loot, that will become the expectation for all.  If you want to get into a good group, the expectation will be that you have the most effective weapons, just as it is now that you have the best buffs, the best spells, etc.  So even people who don't care about any of this, but want to group with others, are going to have to play as if they care and be after crafted weapons, armor, etc.

You have to figure in a game where crafted items are better than world mob drops they are going to be pricey. Face it..players are greedy. And again, if player made items are better than world mob drops...they will ask more for them, especially after they went through the trouble to collect the items to make it and then actually make the item. So not all players will be able to afford them right away or if even at all in some cases. So the mob drops will still be useful to players...and wouldn't be completely useless.

Not all players are greedy and I don't really know that we ought to be encouraging it, that's what makes a lot of player-based economies so outrageous.  I know that when I was playing, virtually everything mob-dropped went straight in an NPC shop, just to dump it.  On rare occasion, when I had something that was worth more or might be useful to people, I'd get on guild chat and yell "who wants this?" and give it away for free.  I am not driven by greed by any means.   Then again, I used to craft for free for anyone who wanted it too.

For travel, I stated it was open world, but also there would be need for some portals, mainly in major hubs...but these could be spaced out so you don't have to travel to any given point very far. Make them discoverable to use. Nothign saying there can't be classes that have the ability to port players either. Have several methods of travel...the ports, ships, maybe like in Vanguard and have rentable flying mounts you can fly anywhere but are on a limited timer for use.

At which point in time, nobody is going to go running around in the world.  They do this in Anarchy Online.  Not only do most people get some sort of high-speed vehicle so they can get around the world, there are the Whom-Pahs that let you get from city to city, and the fixer grid, that anyone who has ever played a high-level fixer will tell you, they get bugged constantly by people who want access to the grid.  Nobody travels long distances in real time if they don't absolutely have to. By adding in portals, as you suggest, aren't you just shooting your whole huge explorable world concept in the foot?

Yes, I know that it would not take long for hidden areas to no longer be hidden...I am not nieve nough to think otherwise. I just didn't want to write a novel explaining EVERYTHING in great detail...as I am not pitchign this to actual dev's. But such "hidden" dungeons could be instanced. Every day, few hours...whenever decided on, they could (If possible) be changed out in pattern. or who's to say every patch or other patch a new passage couldn't be added inthe form of a collapsed wall, previously blocked path opening via apparent quake, etc.

Which is entirely fine, but it'll still be discovered almost immediately and put on a website and all of these new and interesting things will just be passe.  None of it will be inconvenient, which is what I thought you wanted.

Crafting could be more aesthetics than stats. If a photoshop style interface coudl be incorporated for crafters to have the ability to craft pieces, and then rearrange them as they wish for unique looks to go along with stats.

I've always thought that crafted armor and weapons should be unique, but not only in look, but in stats.  The swords made by a particular crafter should be fundamentally different than the swords made by another, the armor made by one should be different than the armor made by another.  Maybe this maker's sword causes 1% more damage, but is 1% more fragile and could break easier?  In fact, you could even make it random, every sword is not exactly the same as every other sword.

 

Why are you playing MMORPG's then? Seriously...I am asking. I don't get those who can't make time for them, but want to play them. This is why there are console RPG's...you can save or pause when you wish and quit on a whim. Yet...everyone wants them to be now now now gimme gimme gimme this second, effectively rendering them...well, NOT MMORPG's.

 

And yeah yeah....I know a few who are going to say "MMORPG's aren't meant to be anything but fun games." Which yes, is true...as far as fun games. But they are a seperate genre, like it or not, from console gaming for the reason they were meant for longer term, more commitment fun. They started for P&P geeks...which MANY of which are still around. That doesn't mean they ALL have to be that form, but a few would be nice, and CAN be a slower pace and thrive if done right....despite what some here may think.

MMOs are games, nothing more, nothing less.  It doesn't matter what genre it is, the fundamental purpose of all games, no matter what genre you're playing, is to have fun.  MMOs are not simply an online extension of P&P RPGs, that might have been what some people hoped for, but that's simply not the case.  You cannot have the same experience in any computer-based game that you can sitting around a table with friends.  It just isn't possible.  I think there are far too many people who still dream that's what MMOs are, who need to wake up and deal with the reality.  These are games.  They're meant to be fun.  They are going to cater to the audience that pays the developers the most money, just like any other game.

It's like wishing for flying cars.  Wish all you like, just deal with the reality.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

2/04/13 2:14:42 PM#63
Originally posted by LauraFrost

The guy is deluded and ignoring actual game mechanics that are NO LONGER AVAILABLE in the market and claiming that it's all "nostalgia" that's moot and I've listed plenty of game mechanics that I still want to see re-implemented. Sometimes I want to make a survey on who actually argues against what we're trying to say I bet you most of them are incapable of thinking outside the box because simply their only experience is being in the box. They are incapable of comprehending what we explain because they have no actual experience of doing something different that they can relate to.

Arguing is pointless with someone who doesn't grasp the concept, just ignore and move on I say. :)

 

The reason these mechanics don't exist anymore is because they failed.  The market selected against them.  The genre evolved.  Whether you like how it evolved or not, it didn't do so in a vacuum, it did it in response to market pressure.  The market, the people who pay for these games to be made, the people who pay for these games to continue, decided they didn't want those features.  Therefore, those features went extinct.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

2/04/13 2:36:29 PM#64

I do think we are a bit spoiled when it comes to computer gaming in general. But there's got to be a balance of convenience and practicality in this equation. Some things are good for the user-base and others only worsen the situation. I think universal chatting in games is stupid, but it allows players to connect no matter where they are in the game. I also think teleport points in game take the fun out of exploration, but it allows players who are in a time crunch the ability to move at instant speed between locations. You might think group finders are the worst thing ever in the gaming universe, but in gameplay, they allow players to connect with other players of similar status and skill to explore content.

The key to balancing this equation is to make these the "pay only" features in games. Instant teleportation could be a payed service, while the players can travel normally in game without it. Group finding features should be blocked unless the player has paid to get access to it. Giving players a boost in experience is a usual cash only item in games. Paying to unlock a quest chain is entirely idiotic, but paying cash to get help from NPCs would be a good idea. This is where P2P games and F2P games differ. F2P games make players pay to access content that is handed to the players in P2P games.

It's not really that progression in games is too fast, it's because you are playing the game too long in duration and with lower frequency per day. Newer games are aimed at the early working age and school age audiences, most of which can spend between 1-2 hours on a game daily during the week. Any person can make any game progression fast if they sit down for a couple hours and accomplish what normal players accomplish in a matter of a week.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/04/13 2:39:12 PM#65
Originally posted by Rossboss

I do think we are a bit spoiled when it comes to computer gaming in general. But there's got to be a balance of convenience and practicality in this equation. Some things are good for the user-base and others only worsen the situation. I think universal chatting in games is stupid, but it allows players to connect no matter where they are in the game. I also think teleport points in game take the fun out of exploration, but it allows players who are in a time crunch the ability to move at instant speed between locations. You might think group finders are the worst thing ever in the gaming universe, but in gameplay, they allow players to connect with other players of similar status and skill to explore content.

The key to balancing this equation is to make these the "pay only" features in games. Instant teleportation could be a payed service, while the players can travel normally in game without it. Group finding features should be blocked unless the player has paid to get access to it. Giving players a boost in experience is a usual cash only item in games. Paying to unlock a quest chain is entirely idiotic, but paying cash to get help from NPCs would be a good idea. This is where P2P games and F2P games differ. F2P games make players pay to access content that is handed to the players in P2P games.

It's not really that progression in games is too fast, it's because you are playing the game too long in duration and with lower frequency per day. Newer games are aimed at the early working age and school age audiences, most of which can spend between 1-2 hours on a game daily during the week. Any person can make any game progression fast if they sit down for a couple hours and accomplish what normal players accomplish in a matter of a week.

Interesting statement.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

2/04/13 2:45:41 PM#66
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran
The quote from Raph Koster in my sig sums it up best, one man's inconvenience is another person's challenge. How are developers to know which of them to cater to? There in lies the real heart of the debate. Generally speaking they try to cater to the largest audience to maximize revenues/profits.

Surveys? Player responds and complains?

And of course they cater to the largest audience. Is there a reason to cater to the smallest?

Personlly, i don't play a game to travel. Given that there are millions playing MMOs, i doubt many share this "lack of motive to log on".

 

We have solo games with differant modes of gameplay. Movie, easy normal, hard and so on. Could we ever see this in MMO's on the same server? I don't know it would be a challenge. But what I do know is that solo games are catering to a larger audience. They are putting various gameplay levels of "inconvience" into their games.

And are you going to play on easy mode? Is that what you want in a MMO? If we have only one mode I would argue for a harder option, but if you can do it in solo games then multiple difficulty options may see the light of day in MMO's.

Actually i don't see solo games putting inconvenience into gameplay. Challenge != inconvenience. Even SKYRIM has instance travel. I don't see a solo games requiring players to do boring back-tracking.

And as of challenge .. i like challenges. Riding 20 min on a boat is not a challenge, it is a chore. And i am always for difficulty options like 3 levels of raids in WOW (LFR, normal and hard), and 10 levels of difficulties in D3. In fact, i always play D3 at the highest difficulty that i can survive.

However, once again, i don't play games to travel. There is little challenge in walking for 10 min, or use a map.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/04/13 2:59:40 PM#67
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Icewhite

Relax, no 'mine's bigger' required.

Yep, we had lots of rooms flagged +noteleport, as well as the more specific +noteleportin and +noteleportout. It honestly rarely equated to "more challenging", but I guess if you add up hundreds of rather insignifcant individual restrictions, you'll achieve enough cumulative "inconveniences" to justify some minor chest-thumping.

Largely reliant on the degree of latent sadism of your room painters, I suppose. :shrug: Games in the 80-90s really could be made "hard as hell" just by piling on enough cumulative frustrations--and coders weren't at all shy about doing it, either.

We love to stretch and tell these youngsters how easy they had it, my games were all uphill, both ways, through the snow, all the time.

I just hope not many of the youngsters buy it...because the truth is that it's largely exaggeration driven by nostalgia and the previously mentioned Iyamso hardc0re pose-and-flex dance.

So we are once again at the point when someone divides the challenges into those he does not like and calls them grind, tedious, frustrating and inconvenient and those he likes and calls them interesting and challenging...

Is that the best you can do? Cannot the requirement to advance just one square with a pawn be considered "frustrating, latent sadism" ? The player just wants another queen at the opposite side of the board...

Is that the best YOU can do?

Because all we're doing is expressing opposing men of straw. Back and forth, ping pong.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19252

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/04/13 3:16:45 PM#68
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran
The quote from Raph Koster in my sig sums it up best, one man's inconvenience is another person's challenge. How are developers to know which of them to cater to? There in lies the real heart of the debate. Generally speaking they try to cater to the largest audience to maximize revenues/profits.

Surveys? Player responds and complains?

And of course they cater to the largest audience. Is there a reason to cater to the smallest?

Personlly, i don't play a game to travel. Given that there are millions playing MMOs, i doubt many share this "lack of motive to log on".

 

We have solo games with differant modes of gameplay. Movie, easy normal, hard and so on. Could we ever see this in MMO's on the same server? I don't know it would be a challenge. But what I do know is that solo games are catering to a larger audience. They are putting various gameplay levels of "inconvience" into their games.

And are you going to play on easy mode? Is that what you want in a MMO? If we have only one mode I would argue for a harder option, but if you can do it in solo games then multiple difficulty options may see the light of day in MMO's.

Actually i don't see solo games putting inconvenience into gameplay. Challenge != inconvenience. Even SKYRIM has instance travel. I don't see a solo games requiring players to do boring back-tracking.

And as of challenge .. i like challenges. Riding 20 min on a boat is not a challenge, it is a chore. And i am always for difficulty options like 3 levels of raids in WOW (LFR, normal and hard), and 10 levels of difficulties in D3. In fact, i always play D3 at the highest difficulty that i can survive.

However, once again, i don't play games to travel. There is little challenge in walking for 10 min, or use a map.

Heh, you reminded me, early MMORPG's required you to map out your progress on graph paper, and trust me, it was quite challenging, especially with random teleporters, spinners, and dark zones.

Not saying I want to go back to those days btw.......

Even with travel, it is actually quite challenging to lead a 200 ship fleet 30 hops into enemy territory, engage and return everyone home safely.

Just a different sort of challenge and not for everyone obviously.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

2/04/13 3:19:23 PM#69
Originally posted by Banaghran
 

So we are once again at the point when someone divides the challenges into those he does not like and calls them grind, tedious, frustrating and inconvenient and those he likes and calls them interesting and challenging...

Is that the best you can do? Cannot the requirement to advance just one square with a pawn be considered "frustrating, latent sadism" ? The player just wants another queen at the opposite side of the board...

Flame on!

:)

I can't believe you cannot tell the difference between inconvience and challenging.

Let's use an example. A 20 min boat ride involves zero challenge and it is inconvenient. Do you think there is a difference? Don't you think no sane person in the world will confuse 20 min boat ride as a challenging gameplay element?

On the flip side, i doubt anyone will confuse defeating a difficult boss that 99% of the players fail .. as an inconvenience but not a challenge.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/04/13 3:33:08 PM#70
Originally posted by nariusseldon

On the flip side, i doubt anyone will confuse defeating a difficult boss that 99% of the players fail .. as an inconvenience but not a challenge.

Sure about that? Players pooh-pooh raid mechanics every day, it's just a scripted event. Not hard.

Of course, hard mode LK had a completion rate of under 1.5%...naw, Ensidia did it so fast, that shit was ezsauce.

No way, that shit wasn't nearly as hard as the Sunwell...

No way, that shit was simple, C'thun, that shit was impossible!

Nothing in WoW was ever hard...

The point is, you can't discuss "difficulty" without ego entering the discussion. The e-schlongs must be drawn forth, and measured against each other. Hubris demands lesser mortals just aren't up to my e-complishments.

And the futher back we retreat into the past, the longer we've been telling ourselves how awesome we are, and how pitiful and useless these "players of today" have to be, by comparison.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

2/04/13 3:46:55 PM#71
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

True,  but you have to remember when you have one qualitatively better piece of loot, that will become the expectation for all.  If you want to get into a good group, the expectation will be that you have the most effective weapons, just as it is now that you have the best buffs, the best spells, etc.  So even people who don't care about any of this, but want to group with others, are going to have to play as if they care and be after crafted weapons, armor, etc.

Not all players are greedy and I don't really know that we ought to be encouraging it, that's what makes a lot of player-based economies so outrageous.  I know that when I was playing, virtually everything mob-dropped went straight in an NPC shop, just to dump it.  On rare occasion, when I had something that was worth more or might be useful to people, I'd get on guild chat and yell "who wants this?" and give it away for free.  I am not driven by greed by any means.   Then again, I used to craft for free for anyone who wanted it too.

 

At which point in time, nobody is going to go running around in the world.  They do this in Anarchy Online.  Not only do most people get some sort of high-speed vehicle so they can get around the world, there are the Whom-Pahs that let you get from city to city, and the fixer grid, that anyone who has ever played a high-level fixer will tell you, they get bugged constantly by people who want access to the grid.  Nobody travels long distances in real time if they don't absolutely have to. By adding in portals, as you suggest, aren't you just shooting your whole huge explorable world concept in the foot?

Which is entirely fine, but it'll still be discovered almost immediately and put on a website and all of these new and interesting things will just be passe.  None of it will be inconvenient, which is what I thought you wanted.

 

I've always thought that crafted armor and weapons should be unique, but not only in look, but in stats.  The swords made by a particular crafter should be fundamentally different than the swords made by another, the armor made by one should be different than the armor made by another.  Maybe this maker's sword causes 1% more damage, but is 1% more fragile and could break easier?  In fact, you could even make it random, every sword is not exactly the same as every other sword.

 

MMOs are games, nothing more, nothing less.  It doesn't matter what genre it is, the fundamental purpose of all games, no matter what genre you're playing, is to have fun.  MMOs are not simply an online extension of P&P RPGs, that might have been what some people hoped for, but that's simply not the case.  You cannot have the same experience in any computer-based game that you can sitting around a table with friends.  It just isn't possible.  I think there are far too many people who still dream that's what MMOs are, who need to wake up and deal with the reality.  These are games.  They're meant to be fun.  They are going to cater to the audience that pays the developers the most money, just like any other game.

It's like wishing for flying cars.  Wish all you like, just deal with the reality.

Purple - This is a fundemental problem with the playerbase of today's MMORPG's. You have to have the best gear, you have to have particular stats, you have to have a particular build or you are passed over and not even considered....or rarely are. And personally, I think it's BS. I have seen players with green gear outperform those that hardcore raid and feed off others help to have the top tier gear. It's not always the gear, but the player. Just most people now consider what a player is wearing or wielding their resume of worth. What a load of garbage.

Red -  Yes, not everyone is greedy...but be realistic...a large majority are. Especially the hardcores that will milk an item in an AH for all they can get. No one is promoting greed, it's a natural occurance,. In games and in reality.

White - I started with old school MMORPG's yes...but that doesn't mean I constantly want long journies. But 9 times out of 10 I still do it. Why? Because I am not in a hurry for the next shiney. I want to relax and enjoy the scenery and content between quests, dungeons, etc. Sure, once in awhile I will take the faster route...but believe it or not...there are people who still like to take the long way at times instead of the fastest and easiest way everytime. Some enjoy it, I am certain I am not the only one. I am saying that for those like me, it's still there to enjoy, but they can add portals for those who want to bypass this. No reason they can't have both.

Yellow - Sigh. Again...I know this...but at least this way it varies it from having just one same old tired way of doing it. They could also add different mobs upon changes, different loot tables, possible random treasure chests. I am just saying there are ways to make it not quite as cookie cutter. And where did I ever say I wanted inconveinience? What one person finds inconveinient, another may be able to find the fun. It's only inconveinient to those who don't like a given feature.

Green - Right. This is what I am getting at. Crafted gear, created by a player, SHOULD be different in looks and stats. And yep...Could have it where depending on what "extra" ingredients, or amounts of ingredients you added to weapons and/or armor recipies...it could alter the stats, and weapon integrity. Would also make crafting much deeper and interesting to experiment with.

Pink - But they DID start as P&P style games because that is who they were targeting in the beginning. But yes...sadly now they are catered to the WoW/console  generation. And I know some will jump in and say I am slandering and name calling, blah blah...but I am not...it's what I see has happened since 2004. HOWEVER...probably a bit more so than that, they cater to.....waaaaaaait fooooor it....the old school crowd who want to hold onto playing MMORPG's, but don't have the time for them based on their RL obligations. So of course they don't mind them being turned into fast paced single playerish RPG's and lobby games.

But also...once they were commercialized to the populace...they went the way of speed and fast rewards. It's like watching a LotR movie where everyone is on crack and the movie lasts 10 minutes and they save the world. Ho-hum and lack luster IMO.

It's just the way of society now. No one has patience, and people refuse to see fun in any other way than this...or even the possibilities of what can or could be done. I don't mind fast fun myself...but that is why I play console games or PC FPS games. I USE to play MMORPG's to get lost in a world, become my character, and relax and forget reality...but sadly....they no longer give that feeling. And it isn't because I've been there done that over and over again. It's because those types of MMORPG's are nearly, if not already completely extinct....and it's just sad. I feel if you can't find the time to enjoy an MMORPG in moderation.....you shouldn't be playing them. But again...just my own opinion.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

2/04/13 3:58:32 PM#72
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

The reason these mechanics don't exist anymore is because they failed.  The market selected against them.  The genre evolved.  Whether you like how it evolved or not, it didn't do so in a vacuum, it did it in response to market pressure.  The market, the people who pay for these games to be made, the people who pay for these games to continue, decided they didn't want those features.  Therefore, those features went extinct.

 

On this point, I agree.

 

I'm not in the camp that MMORPGs should be changed from what they are.  I am in the camp that I don't like what they have become.

 

I don't think that adding inconvenience will improve mass appeal games.  I do think that adding inconvenience would make the world feel more detailed for ME.

 

As I see it, the issue is niche compared to mainstream.

 

A niche game can add inconvenience as a feature.  I don't see it ever happening to mainstream if they continue in the current direction, which is expected.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Exilor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

2/04/13 4:13:02 PM#73

Some inconveniences like long travelling time, some kinds of grind, un-soloable dangers to get from A to B and so on foster communication between players, be it to make the grind or walking a long distance more entertaining, or because you can't do it alone.

 

I'll use two very different MMORPGs to illustrate my point.

Lineage II: It was a long long grind. And when you didn't have much adena to spare you had to walk. And what else to do when you're just walking than chatting with your clanmates.

The combat wasn't very fast and that made chatting while grinding rather easy. Even if you could solo, having another guy with you would make both your MP bars last longer.

Longer, but not forever. Eventually you both would have to sit down and wait to regen. I agree that it's boring to watch your character do nothing for some minutes, yet it gave you time and motivation to talk to the guy you were in a group with, or, if you were soloing, to chat with your clanmates.

I'm not a talkative person, not even online, but I made friends and some of them I met in RL afterwards.

Now I'm looking at my screenshots (I made screenshots for the smallest of things, all the time. Easily over a thousand) and there's hardly any where I'm not saying something in party or clan chat. In most of them there's me having some conversation with 1 or more people.

 

This is not seen through nostalgia glasses, some of them are from after I had played Champions Online so it can't be that long ago.

 

Guild Wars 2: This is a game I like very much. It's fun, it's big and it's a joy to look at, and I'm playing it since one of the BWEs (don't remember which).

I run around the world, I do renown hearts and events, help people kill hard mobs and revive them. I've done a couple of dungeons (not to thrilled about them). I've gone to WvWvW and spent some time there. I've been part of groups gathered to kill mobs such as the krait witch and so on, I do a jumping puzzle and sometimes I see a player or two or five there doing it too.

But I rarely talk to anybody nor I'm talked to. Often I talk to some random guy only to see him go away or keep killing a few mobs and then go away.

Oh I've written in the chat window a few times of course. But we've only exchanged a couple of witticisms and then buh-bye, never to see each other again.

There's people chatting in map chat, yes, and my server (Piken Square) is packed with roleplayers that fill the local chat nicely. Not much more.

And I think it's because it's all very fast and very busy and the goals change so quickly. Now I'm doing an event but at the second it's finished and the loot is looted, a few "GJ" and teleport to the waypoint nearest the next one. Or to complete a renown heart. Or find all waypoints, vistas and points of interest. Or whatever.

Maybe others can, but I find it very hard to say anything while I'm fighting a mob in this game. And there's barely a pause between mobs at all.

 

I have a RL friend that happens to also play this game and we talk from time to time, but all too often we're too busy using out keyboards for things other than chatting.

 

Now the preemptive disclaimers:

I realize others may have done more of an effort to communicate and succeeded. It's all just vague feelings and motivations.

I haven't played WoW, Everquest, Ultima Online, Anarchy Online or DAOC, to name a few old school MMORPGs. I can't comment on these issues when it comes to these games.

I'm not defending tedium and grind, I'm just commenting on my impression that they might be related to the game's community.

And finally Ye Olde "sry 4 my english not my 1st language".

And thus, I think that some inconveniences, by means of fostering communication, add to the game's longevity and enjoyment. Whether the benefit outweights the boredom, I'm no one to decide.

 

Edit: OMG with the wall of text. Maybe I should've made a new thread lol...

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

2/04/13 4:15:03 PM#74
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Cephus404

I'm not in the camp that MMORPGs should be changed from what they are.  I am in the camp that I don't like what they have become.

 

I don't think that adding inconvenience will improve mass appeal games.  I do think that adding inconvenience would make the world feel more detailed for ME.

Nothing wrong with that. The biggest issue I have with some posters is how they think they are above the "average gamer" like reading a map or a wall of text required some special kind of special intelligence. Or that spending hours upon hours doing something completely trivial makes them "hardcore". Please...

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/04/13 4:15:10 PM#75
Originally posted by XAPGames

As I see it, the issue is niche compared to mainstream.

A niche game can add inconvenience as a feature.  I don't see it ever happening to mainstream if they continue in the current direction, which is expected.

EQ, UO, DAoC? All boutique games, by today's standards. Many of them started their life with these 'inconvenience' features, and discarded them, either before or after 2004. EQ got rid of the much-maligned "forced grouping" at the request of its own player base. Whups, can't blame that one on these lazy modern players.

Virtually every game in existance as of 2002 was already heading toward more solo-friendly before WoW opened, intentionally. CoH (already solo-friendly on its birthday) opened before WoW did. Oops, another one we can't totally blame WoW for.

At the same time these 'inconvenience' features were being removed from their orignal homes, one by one? The industry itself was expanding, by about two orders of magnitude. Huh, that's in...convenient..

Those MUDs we were talking about earlier? Two orders of magnitude smaller still than the late 90s boutique MMOs...

Again, maybe removing some of those inconveniences encouraged a big-ass growth spurt?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

2/04/13 4:27:10 PM#76
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Cephus404

I'm not in the camp that MMORPGs should be changed from what they are.  I am in the camp that I don't like what they have become.

 

I don't think that adding inconvenience will improve mass appeal games.  I do think that adding inconvenience would make the world feel more detailed for ME.

Nothing wrong with that. The biggest issue I have with some posters is how they think they are above the "average gamer" like reading a map or a wall of text required some special kind of special intelligence. Or that spending hours upon hours doing something completely trivial makes them "hardcore". Please...

Although some people are like that...despite what you think, I am not one of them. I don't think I am above the average gamer...I AM the average gamer. It's a difference of opinion and personal preference is all I ever try to get across and others want to contstantly  overlook and cast assumptions instead...because I don't agree with their outlooks all the time.

I just feel given vague directions with some landmark clues is more intriguing and interesting and adds to exploration more so than being told to go to an exact spot that is clearly marked on a map..taking away any need to think about where I may of seen such a landmark before, or communicate with other players to find out where it is...or even killing the excitement and gratification in locating the place without the aid of others or map GPS. Does that mean it's wrong that there are those who like being told exactly where to go and have that map GPS? Nope...it's just not my thing and don't see the fun in it. Same with other features.

I do not see a reason there cannot be a middle ground. But people on these forums are like the Israelis and Palestinians. Instead of comprimise and understanding and seeking a middle ground they can agree on and both live with....both sides are stubborn and greedy and want what they want and to cast hate on the other if they don't agree.

If one side asks for something, the other knocks it. This goes more so on the modern side doing it than the older. Which I find selfish considering nearly every one caters to them already...so what should it matter to them if one game is asked for to cater to the olders crowd? And why do they feel the need to comment in such threads if they don't interest them other than to try and pitch there constant "it's not what the majority wants and it won't work" rants.  I am certain one can thrive with a good mix of old and new if done right...it's just a matter of a company having the balls to do it and prove it. Even with a player base of 250K+ it can turn a profit. May not be WOW-esque profit...or even Rift profit...but still profit.

And again, what some may find trivial, others may find fun in doing. It's only trivial or "useless" to those who don't like that given feature. And that is a 2-way street.

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

2/04/13 4:44:32 PM#77
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Pink - But they DID start as P&P style games because that is who they were targeting in the beginning. But yes...sadly now they are catered to the WoW/console  generation. And I know some will jump in and say I am slandering and name calling, blah blah...but I am not...it's what I see has happened since 2004. HOWEVER...probably a bit more so than that, they cater to.....waaaaaaait fooooor it....the old school crowd who want to hold onto playing MMORPG's, but don't have the time for them based on their RL obligations. So of course they don't mind them being turned into fast paced single playerish RPG's and lobby games.

But also...once they were commercialized to the populace...they went the way of speed and fast rewards. It's like watching a LotR movie where everyone is on crack and the movie lasts 10 minutes and they save the world. Ho-hum and lack luster IMO.

 

You seem to be forgetting that most of these "inconveniences" were not really present in P&P games and were only added once the games transitioned to computers.  When I played D&D or Shadowrun with pen and paper, we did not have long travel times or mob grinds.  If the GM told us that we had to spend an hour of real time on traveling with no action in between and just described the scenery, we would have laughed at him. 

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

2/04/13 4:51:54 PM#78
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Pink - But they DID start as P&P style games because that is who they were targeting in the beginning. But yes...sadly now they are catered to the WoW/console  generation. And I know some will jump in and say I am slandering and name calling, blah blah...but I am not...it's what I see has happened since 2004. HOWEVER...probably a bit more so than that, they cater to.....waaaaaaait fooooor it....the old school crowd who want to hold onto playing MMORPG's, but don't have the time for them based on their RL obligations. So of course they don't mind them being turned into fast paced single playerish RPG's and lobby games.

But also...once they were commercialized to the populace...they went the way of speed and fast rewards. It's like watching a LotR movie where everyone is on crack and the movie lasts 10 minutes and they save the world. Ho-hum and lack luster IMO.

 

You seem to be forgetting that most of these "inconveniences" were not really present in P&P games and were only added once the games transitioned to computers.  When I played D&D or Shadowrun with pen and paper, we did not have long travel times or mob grinds.  If the GM told us that we had to spend an hour of real time on traveling with no action in between and just described the scenery, we would have laughed at him. 

My God. No I am not forgetting. You are taking it way too literally and in depth. I was just saying they were first made with P&P players in mind. As at the time...such players and console players were for the most part actually a seperate market. I say for the most part because out of my many friends who played P&P games...I was one of 3 that also played console games (Atari 2600 at the time).

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

2/04/13 5:08:29 PM#79
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Pink - But they DID start as P&P style games because that is who they were targeting in the beginning. But yes...sadly now they are catered to the WoW/console  generation. And I know some will jump in and say I am slandering and name calling, blah blah...but I am not...it's what I see has happened since 2004. HOWEVER...probably a bit more so than that, they cater to.....waaaaaaait fooooor it....the old school crowd who want to hold onto playing MMORPG's, but don't have the time for them based on their RL obligations. So of course they don't mind them being turned into fast paced single playerish RPG's and lobby games.

But also...once they were commercialized to the populace...they went the way of speed and fast rewards. It's like watching a LotR movie where everyone is on crack and the movie lasts 10 minutes and they save the world. Ho-hum and lack luster IMO.

 

You seem to be forgetting that most of these "inconveniences" were not really present in P&P games and were only added once the games transitioned to computers.  When I played D&D or Shadowrun with pen and paper, we did not have long travel times or mob grinds.  If the GM told us that we had to spend an hour of real time on traveling with no action in between and just described the scenery, we would have laughed at him. 

My God. No I am not forgetting. You are taking it way too literally and in depth. I was just saying they were first made with P&P players in mind. As at the time...such players and console players were for the most part actually a seperate market. I say for the most part because out of my many friends who played P&P games...I was one of 3 that also played console games (Atari 2600 at the time).

My point is that P&P RPGs tend to have more in common with the WoW-style games than the old school MMORPGs.  The first MMORPGs tried to appeal to the P&P players and they succeeded in part but had to abandom a lot of of what made P&P so exciting in favour of time sinks.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/04/13 5:09:59 PM#80

Well if the original MMO's were targeting those P&P gamers, yet the P&P games didn't have those inconveniences, one has to wonder how effective their target marketing actually was. 

Not commenting on the success of the games, just that maybe they missed their market and got a different one. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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