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56 posts found
  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2084

 
OP  12/07/12 2:07:06 PM#1

Thought it would be nice to sum up what the genre has learned this year.  Please add anything you find missing.

1) A popular well-esblished IP with a HUGE budget does not guarantee player retenton (SWTOR).

2) EA is quickly becoming the most despised company in the MMO landscape.

3) A unique theme and wheel skillset do not guarantee success (TSW)

4) Don't use the word "Dynamic" unless you really mean it (GW2).

5) If you put out a manifesto, don't go back on it...or even leave it up to too wide of interpretation (GW2).

6) A 90% from PCGamer will not keep the hackers away (PS2)

7) The third in a trilogy usually sucks (D3)

8) Combat and combat alone does not a good MMO make (Tera).

9) Hype......AVOID IT!

10) One game alone will not save or destroy the genre (GW2, SWTOR, and many others).

 

 

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/07/12 3:01:25 PM#2

- good online combat & progression game is not necessarily a MMO (D3)

- every successful game has its hater, and if you enjoy a game, ignore the haters (D3, GW2, ....)

- big world pvp made a come-back (PS2)

- sub game is a thing of the past (TOR going F2P, MH built for F2P from ground up .. sub game like TSW not doing well)

- more non-MMO but MMO like games (MH is more like Diablo, Mechwarrior Online instanced and no world, MOBA very successful)

 

 

  DSWBeef

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 772

12/07/12 3:15:46 PM#3
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

Playing: Archeage Alpha, World of Warcraft, and Diablo 3
Waiting on: Archeage, Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  User Deleted
12/07/12 3:17:31 PM#4
Originally posted by grimal

Thought it would be nice to sum up what the genre has learned this year.  Please add anything you find missing.

1) A popular well-esblished IP with a HUGE budget does not guarantee player retenton (SWTOR).

2) EA is quickly becoming the most despised company in the MMO landscape.

3) A unique theme and wheel skillset do not guarantee success (TSW)

4) Don't use the word "Dynamic" unless you really mean it (GW2).

5) If you put out a manifesto, don't go back on it...or even leave it up to too wide of interpretation (GW2).

6) A 90% from PCGamer will not keep the hackers away (PS2)

7) The third in a trilogy usually sucks (D3)

8) Combat and combat alone does not a good MMO make (Tera).

9) Hype......AVOID IT!

10) One game alone will not save or destroy the genre (GW2, SWTOR, and many others).

 

 

Couldn't agree more, great post.

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

12/07/12 3:17:34 PM#5

Agree with your points, except maybe 3) because TSW lack of advertising clearly shows it never was intended for the mass market, just like EvE.

TSW is an amazing and unique game and definitely a success for the specific audience, but not for the average MMO-Joe market - also the pre-release hype of GW2 leads me to another point regarding TSW

11) Never release a new MMO when a competitor with a massive marketing campaign releases at the same time

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/07/12 3:17:42 PM#6
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2084

 
OP  12/07/12 3:19:48 PM#7
Originally posted by FromHell

Agree with your points, except maybe 3) because TSW lack of advertising clearly shows it never was intended for the mass market, just like EvE.

TSW is an amazing and unique game and definitely a success for the specific audience, but not for the average MMO-Joe market - also the pre-release hype of GW2 leads me to another point regarding TSW

11) Never release a new MMO when a competitor with a massive marketing campaign releases at the same time

But didn't Funcom come out and say that they should not have made some a niche game?

 

Edit: or at least, by creating such a game as TSW, it limited their marketabilty?

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2084

 
OP  12/07/12 3:21:42 PM#8
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by grimal

Thought it would be nice to sum up what the genre has learned this year.  Please add anything you find missing.

1) A popular well-esblished IP with a HUGE budget does not guarantee player retenton (SWTOR).

2) EA is quickly becoming the most despised company in the MMO landscape.

3) A unique theme and wheel skillset do not guarantee success (TSW)

4) Don't use the word "Dynamic" unless you really mean it (GW2).

5) If you put out a manifesto, don't go back on it...or even leave it up to too wide of interpretation (GW2).

6) A 90% from PCGamer will not keep the hackers away (PS2)

7) The third in a trilogy usually sucks (D3)

8) Combat and combat alone does not a good MMO make (Tera).

9) Hype......AVOID IT!

10) One game alone will not save or destroy the genre (GW2, SWTOR, and many others).

 

 

Couldn't agree more, great post.

Thanks!

 

Somehow I feel #9 is going to be on 2013's list as well.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Lizardone

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/12
Posts: 94

12/07/12 3:23:01 PM#9
armor dyes from the get go is a sweet game feature (GW2) and girls like it too (GW2)
  DSWBeef

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 772

12/07/12 3:23:02 PM#10
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

Playing: Archeage Alpha, World of Warcraft, and Diablo 3
Waiting on: Archeage, Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/07/12 3:31:10 PM#11
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6693

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

12/07/12 3:34:03 PM#12

Well for the most part i have to agree but 1/8 are iffy.

1 That is a great IP no question however HUGE budget i am not so sure,matter of fact i doubt it.

8 great combat imo does make a great game.I am not so sure i would say TERA has great combat,i did not like any part of that game.Combat is 85% the reason why i liked/loved FFXi.

Combat does have a lot to it however,more so than simply killing.So much of a game can tie into combat,that is what does it for me.

Truth of course is that ONE aspect does nopt make a great GAME,it is however a VERY important piece of the pie.IMO it is like the pie filling,the crust is al lthe other little things.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

12/07/12 3:39:18 PM#13
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

Increase in population =/= increase of revenue.

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/07/12 3:41:32 PM#14
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

Increase in population =/= increase of revenue.

F2P provides BOTH.

For example:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27416/Going_Free_Boosts_Turbines_DDO_Revenues_500_Percent.php#.UMJiQXc-Oa8

"Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players" ... huge increase in population

"Going Free Boosts Turbine's DDO Revenues 500 Percent" ... huge increase in revenue

BOTH is possible.

  User Deleted
12/07/12 3:46:12 PM#15

2012 was rough. After 8 years of having swg, i found myself struggling to connect with the new style of mmos.

  Banquetto

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1026

12/07/12 3:47:02 PM#16


Originally posted by nariusseldon
For example:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27416/Going_Free_Boosts_Turbines_DDO_Revenues_500_Percent.php#.UMJiQXc-Oa8

"Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players" ... huge increase in population


It is interesting, and I suspect relevant, that we still constantly hear about that news report from nearly three years ago. Has anyone heard any announcements more recently than early 2010 about how well D&DO was doing? All the signs point to an initial burst of enthusiasm when they first made it free to play.. followed by a rapid dropoff back to where it was previously.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/07/12 3:50:12 PM#17
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
For example:

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27416/Going_Free_Boosts_Turbines_DDO_Revenues_500_Percent.php#.UMJiQXc-Oa8

"Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players" ... huge increase in population


 

It is interesting, and I suspect relevant, that we still constantly hear about that news report from nearly three years ago. Has anyone heard any announcements more recently than early 2010 about how well D&DO was doing? All the signs point to an initial burst of enthusiasm when they first made it free to play.. followed by a rapid dropoff back to where it was previously.

DDO just released an expansion in 2012, so i doubt they are doing badly.

However, the point is that F2P does change behavior, and increase population/revenue. You can look up other reports. I believe F2P also improve on LOTRO.

It is not a accident that F2P has increased its market share against p2p in 2011.

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 884

12/07/12 3:54:58 PM#18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

Increasing it for how long? Its clear you have an agenda here but you failing to address a serious topic, Player Retention.

 

So you have 30 f2p games but there all crap. Sure youll get an influx of players but for how long? A few days? A few weeks? You cant keep players playing those games. You give us one great game with a sub and not only will you fill the world with players, but those same people will be there 6 months to a year later.

 

Maybe you want to float from game to game and thats your right. Console games alow you to do that just fine. But a trully epic MMO will keep you in that game world for a very very long time. And that game has been missing from the MMO market.

 

So yes F2P may increase the player base of a failing game but for how long? A failing game is just that. The Payment model has little to do with that. It has to do with the game its self.

 

  Shoko_Lied

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/07
Posts: 2110

SWG Publish 4 Jedi:Flurry: TKM unlock

12/07/12 4:01:30 PM#19

I like shooting things more than taming turtles

PS2>WoW

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/07/12 4:04:07 PM#20
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Maybe you want to float from game to game and thats your right. Console games alow you to do that just fine. But a trully epic MMO will keep you in that game world for a very very long time. And that game has been missing from the MMO market.

 


 

"True epic MMO"? I dont' need a game to keep me for very very long time. Everything gets boring for very very long time. F2P is fine .. just hop from game to game.

And if that game is missing from the MMO market, there is a reason. May be there is few players who want such a game. Personally i don't miss it.

As far as the trend is concern:

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/free-to-play-mmo-game-spending-increases-24-to-1-2bn-dollar-in-u-s/

And i quote

"Free-to-play share of total U.S. MMO spending increases from 39% to 47%."

BTW, this is 2011 .. just last year.

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