Originally posted by Icewhite

PVP with essentially/truly infinite deaths has always bothered me. 

No consequences; no lawman nicking you off to jail if you're caught in town, no bounty hunters hunting your butt in groups, no stocks with villagers hurling fruit, no hangman, no military justice....etc.   It's not even minimally "realistic", not even within the limits of the genre.

Also MMO "generals" faction leaders etc. allow their "soldiers" to operate as completely independent vigilantes, something no sane commander would ever tolerate.  We have the balls to call the chaotic result a "War".

PVP is instead just an 8-bit fighting game, Street Fighter with infinite quarters.

You could just as easily substitute "PvP" with "PvE" in that statement.

1. Railroading, as in.. playing the developers story/adventure, beeing herded around to designated areas designed for your level, zones&areas that only exist for the sake of quests... and so on.

2. Stories instead of worlds with adventure.

3. Dumbing down, as in .. trying to reach an audience ranging from 8-99 year old casual to hardcore, simplifying everything to a beautiful theoretical concept, taking out tactical concepts to better control every part of the game experience, simple spells and abilities, faster gameplay and mashing buttons, fewer and way too similar classes or builds.

4. Balancing, as in balacing pve to make pvp fit in, balancing to make soloing equally hard.. err easy.

5. Pay2Win.

6. Quick levelling & Endgame focused, including double xp, making gear obsolete too quick, no consequense, forgetting the journey is the adventure.

7. Point system to equire gear, as opposed to finding and crafting gear, and trading.

8. Brief social interactions, that doesnt connect players.

9. Fearing to cause any kind of confusion or discomfort to players like failing and having to retry, farming anything or doing long quests for grand rewards, finding mysterious items that doesnt hold an explanation what it is for god forbid a player should use his imagination or speculate.. and so on.

10. read Azzamazins post, he says about the same only better.

-- Cash shops (give me a set monthly fee I start paying after trying out the game that includes EVERY aspect of the game, short of expansion packs that I can choose to purchase if I want;  don't try to suck as much money out of me as you can get in order for me to have every available feature in the game) .... I have played and currently do play games with cash shops, mainly because of the limit of decent MMOs available these days, but I hate to see that it is a growing trend

-- FFA PvP (it's a game killer for me; allow players to choose when, where and with whom they want to pvp; if a player checks that he or she is open for pvp then put limits on how it can be unchecked, either time passed or player death; people who are into hardcore pvp can check the option to stay in pvp mode constantly....if I'm on my crafter or entertainer, I shouldn't have to worry about getting killed randomly since I'm marked as an easy target just so another player can gain points or feel better about themselves)

-- levels (limits who you can play with, determines where you can play in the game, kills community....I still remember after CU was implemented in SWG being told for the first time "sorry, we already have too many low players in our group," and that was a point at which players of various levels could still group together without messing up someone's xp, unlike most leveled games)

-- having to choose one combat class

-- crafting being a side to combat (got to reach x level in combat to start crafting, have to progress in combat before progressing further in crafting)

-- crafting being useless because the loot dropped is better than anything a player can craft

-- linear progression (first do quest line A then quest line B then go to zone X and do quest line C, etc. ... chose to make an alt of a different race to see that storyline? guess what! soon you'll find yourself doing the same set of quests that this character is doing)

-- quest turn in being the largest part of xp gain (kill a random mob = 100xp, kill same random mob for a quest = 100 xp for the kills + 2000 xp for turning in the quest)

-- heavily instanced games

-- as others have already said, it is odd to loot things that don't make sense....animals should drop meat, bones, hide unless they have human characteristics (ex. werewolves);basically the loot should match the visual -- caveman in loincloth wouldn't  be dropping heavy armor or bags of gold unless he had a sack with him

-- choice of character determining faction or good/evil (while the backstory of that species/race might lean towards something, players should have the freedom to create a storyline of their own....."my species may be 'good,' but when I was raised by species that are 'bad' and I follow their ways" or "my species may be 'bad,' but I saw something wrong with their ways so I chose to live differently"......look at Star Wars as an example, just because Darth Vader was evil didn't mean his kids were too

-- having to choose a faction/side (what about the mercenary for hire that does the work of whichever side will pay the most that day or the businessman looking to make a profit from the conflict selling goods to whoever will buy them?)

-- interactions with other players being limited due to choice of species/faction (I know it is suppose to prevent people from spying on the enemy but with the way technology is these days there are plenty of ways around it and once again that only limites the stories players can choose create for their characters)

I'm sure my list could go on but this is a start.

[edit to add another]

-- "end game" content (Got to go through this raid dungeon again!  Why? To get elite loot! Why do you need elite loot?  So I go through raid dungeon again! Why? To get the elite loot! .......and the cycle goes on.......once my character's developed--although I've never played a leveled themepark game long enough to see my character fully leveled-- and I've killed the big boss once and seen all there is to see or as much as I was able to see as I was herded through zones, the game IS over; I have no motivation to keep going through the same dungeon over and over again.  Why DO I need better equipment? I'm done and there's nothing left that requires me having elite loot;  IF a game is a virtual world rather than a linear path then chances are there will be more for me to do and not reach the end of the game then it becomes "why do I need to craft another item/kill another boss monster/do another dungeon? a newbie/less developed character just joined our guild and we are helping him/her out or our guild needs money/supplies for our town or one of many other reasons)

1. Static mobs waiting for you to come along and kill them.

2. Clearly marking quest NPC's with giant symbols. (Can be mixed in with #1 too)

3. Map GPS

4. Instant travel everywhere.

5. Cookie cutter questing systems.

6. World Auction Houses.

7. Limited races/classes/customization selections.

8. Linear wolrds/small worlds. (Made even smaller by #3 & 4)

You want my reasons for these, quote and ask. Otherwise My 2cp.

gear

level

content

progression

pve

class

auction house

bound item

end game

dailies

quest

Just another one.

A set of gear that is the class-specific, end all be all for that class.  Look at EverQuest (again.)  You could raid in any assorted set of gear.  Yes the class stuff was nicer, but you weren't railroaded out of groups/raids/etc for not having a certain iLvl.

I dislike the notion of endgame as something separate from the rest of the game --  this is kind of a hacked quote from a previous post I made some time ago.

Before mmo's, once you reached the end of a game, you just moved on to the next game and/or occasionally replayed the old one. Satisfaction ultimately came from the "journey". End game is a BS idea perpetuated by developers to be an extended timesink to collect your subscription money.

Now, when I say enjoyment is in the journey, I really mean it is in the journey and completing the journey (i.e accomplishment). You get to see your character develop into something powerful and experience fun adventures. HOw many games do you play where you don't have a skill progression but essentially start out almighty powerful? Strategy games come to mind (Chess, lemmings, Tetris). Flight Simulators too and old school arcade games like Asteroids, Donkey Kong and Pole Position. Those are endurance games. In most action/adventure/shooter/rpg single player games, you get new powers and abilities. Contra, Devil May Cry, God of War, Diablo, Doom -- you always start out weak. But then you go through the journey and you get more powerful until you reach the end -- you beat the game, reach max level. What happens now?

For those single player games, you either start over with a new build, maybe go back to find some missing things, or you move on to the next game, don't you? Why should you treat mmos any differently? Because the companies said so? Companies contrived this idea of end game, that you can do more with your character when you've capped out but there's no way for them to keep up with that demand. They SOLD everyone on this IDEA that there's more to do AFTER YOU BEAT THE GAME but the fact is, once you're done with the game....you're done. All MMO's simply can do is offer up more to grind to stretch out how long you're going to pay them.

Heck, think about monopoly -- you start out weak with only your 200 dollars. You go in circles a whole bunch of times and as you do, you acquire new powers (properties, get out of jail free cards), equipment (first houses and then hotels) , and ever-more money to upgrade. There are time sinks (jail, getting all of the same color before adding houses) and pvp (land on someone else's property and pay through the nose) as well as some glorious moments (winning 2nd prize in the beauty pageant). But, inevitably, you max out. Now, your choice is to either keep going around the board and collect 200 dollars (perhaps collect some more rent if people are even willing to play still), start a new game with a different build (acquire different properties since it's the roll of the dice) and see if you can beat it again, or just move on to the next board game (the Game of Life or Stratego.) The game is about the journey.

This is what I mean by end-game being contrived.

1) Battlegrounds and Instanced PvP... when they are on PvP Servers.

2) PvP Rewards

3) Quest hub to Quest hub progression

4) 100,000 people doing the same, "I'm a special little snowflake" quest.

5) Stupid over-used sayings from games that were made after movies, e.g., "I have a bad feeling about this."

6) Lack of armor / clothing variety. We all look the same in the end.

Having to kill and skin a dozen big animals just to get enough leather to make a pair of boots.

Seriously, considering that just about every MMO has you killing huge quantities of animals, I'm surprised PETA hasn't kicked up a big stink about it.

well to add which bothers me

1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

2) small worlds, why not like EVE a whole planet to become a whole server ?

3) fake hero dimensions, if i want to become a hero for NPCs i go play a single play game, its good to have personal quests but not the style you save the world as everyone else around you ...

4) only fighting become famous and get levels its annoying i would like to gain fame by becoming a famous artisan or famous explorer or famous trader

5) why crafting is so limitied and i can invent my own recipies ?

these few, i have more which i want but these are what i have in mind atm ...

Originally posted by loulaki

well to add which bothers me

 

1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 

2) small worlds, why not like EVE a whole planet to become a whole server ?

No comment - only played Eve a little - didn't like it.

 

3) fake hero dimensions, if i want to become a hero for NPCs i go play a single play game, its good to have personal quests but not the style you save the world as everyone else around you ...

In GW2, you are NOT an uber hero. In fact you can choose to be from common folk or even an orphan (the human PS).

 

4) only fighting become famous and get levels its annoying i would like to gain fame by becoming a famous artisan or famous explorer or famous trader

Not sure on this one -'THe Justin Bieiber of MMOs"? MEH

 

5) why crafting is so limitied and i can invent my own recipies ?

 Because of the same reason there are no single big worlds - too hard to progam and the amount of number crunching for invented recipies would be enormous. This could cause some glitching and then some fantastic glitched armors/weapons/potions to be made. In D1, there was a glitch in such a way you could get uder armor which had the same odds as winning the Powerball in the lottery. All my friends then had this armor.

these few, i have more which i want but these are what i have in mind atm ...

Originally posted by Hardanger

A "quest" is any old menial task, and there are thousands of them.

 

 

My favorite quest sytem to this day is Runescape's, because there are a select number of quests, and they feel like real adventures most of the time.  They take time and effort to complete.

+1 hated those quests (as I do the standard mmo quest) but not as much.  You actually had to read the quest lines and or use a guide to finish some of them

1) That people become heroes in order to get better items (armor/weapons/jewelry). Yeah sure mercenaries do things for money. But usually in an MMO you are role playing some kind of selfless knight not a sell sword. And yet the developers make it clear they think you are doing what you do not out of heroism, love for your realm, the desire to make a name for yourself, etc. but because you just want a prettier ring and a sharper sword.

2) Similarly, you are a hero who has undergone enough training to be able to wield a sword in a deadly manner or cast powerful magic. And yet your quest begins at level 1 with a few pieces of cloth armor and a low quality weapon. Wouldn't your mentor or guild have made sure you had a full suit of armor instead of making you beat up on a bunch of bandits and take their armor?

3) Also why are helms so rare that you don't even find your first one until level 11? Isn't protecting your head from injuries pretty important? You would think you wouldn't even begin questing without at least some form of protective headgear. We don't let our kids play peewee football or hockey without helmets ffs.

4) The realm sends you out to fight evil, but they don't give you a steed or enough money to buy one until you are level 20. Instead they want you to walk to every destination (at least once). Duh?

1) Cashshops

2) Cashshops

3) Cashshops

4) Linear instanced worlds

Originally posted by allendale5
 

1) NPC's that stand in the same spot for all of eternity

2) Mobs that are so crowded together that it loses all semblance of reality - even that of the theme-parked suspended disbelief realty.

3) Zones that cannot be traversed without weaving through mindless mobs 

4) Quest objectives that are right next to the quest giver.  For the love of God, he could do it himself.

5) Class specific weapons and gear.  As if a human mage could not pick up a sword if she had to.  

Agreed.  

Additionally:

6 ) Cash shops, mrah's, currency selling

7 ) Non-seamless zoned world and zone duplicating.

8) Automatic LFG tools and auto-teleport

9) cross-server zone & tools.  Does not belong to any game that is descibed as virtual world.

10) Arrows, markers and hand-holdiong..  Following arrows and markers is not playing.  It does cut 'play' part from virtual world game.

11) Linear progression through series of closed maps (zones).

1) Daily quests have become an accepted part of end game content.

For me, daily quests have ruined modern MMOs. I honestly don't see why someone would want to do the same few quests every day for months on end. It's even worse when other people don't want to do anything else because they feel they have to do their dailies in order to get X reward. Don't even let me get started on the havoc these quests have on ingame economies. 

2) Ganking has 0 penalties.

This is a far, far second but it annoys me to no end that someone 40-50 levels higher can sit for hours wiping any lowbie that comes into their view, just because they can without repurcussion.

PvP in MMOs...Ill play WoT if I want to shoot people

Sandboxes...I know im in the minority forum wise[.  I dont want to have to "figure it out".   Just show me the 10 rats I need to kill.

Things i don't like about cars:

• Wheels
• Engine
• Doors
• Painting
• Windows
• Seats
• Air Conditioning
• Dashboard
• Gas-tank
• Exhaust pipe
• Seat-belts
• Ability do drive and turn

Some of my list, in no perticular order:

Instancing

Quests / Missions

Lack of full loot

No meaningful exploration

No need to work with others (its an MMO ffs)

Lack of meaningful crafting

PVP that doesnt involve PLAYER skill, but instead favors character skill or level

Lack of personal housing

Making it too easy to reach a high level of character skill or level

Lack of treasure hunting

The game holding my hand becuase I am  unique, special, delicate flower with feelings that might get virtually hurt

Theres many more but I lost the desire to continue typing them all out.