Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

 

You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

 

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

 

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

So you support the degradation of the industry?

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

 

You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

 

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

 

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

So you support the degradation of the industry?

I would say they disagree it is degradation, from their perspective it is improvement and they are suppporting an improvement of the industry.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

 

You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

 

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

 

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

So you support the degradation of the industry?

I would say they disagree it is degradation, from their perspective it is improvement and they are suppporting an improvement of the industry.

I just can't see how anyone thinks it would be an improvement to purposely cut out features and release them as day 1 dlc...

maybe pay to win I could see. They don't want to grind 50 hours a week to get items...or they don't have time to play MMOs and want to keep up with others.

The latter maybe...the former...how the heck is that an improvement?

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

 

You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

 

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

 

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

So you support the degradation of the industry?

I support what I like with my wallet and don't really care if people who don't like it care how it affects "the industry".  Those who don't like what I like can and do vote with their wallets.  Obviously subs aren't going anywhere soon because WoW is still cooking along strong with the recurring fee years later.

I'm not sure I understand why you care so much and lecture about what other people do with their entertainment dollars.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

 

You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

 

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

 

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

So you support the degradation of the industry?

I would say they disagree it is degradation, from their perspective it is improvement and they are suppporting an improvement of the industry.

Exactly.

And what degradation of the industry? Didn't you read that there is a rise in indie games? There are more choices than ever. This quarter, Dishonored, NOT a sequel, has become one of the better games and it sold well.

So what if there is day 1 DLC? Either they are not fun, and i won't buy them, or if i determine that they are fun, i am more than happy to play and pay.

Just like sparkling pony on WOW. Millions purchased it ... and why you may have a problem with it ... a) many don't, and b) you don't have to buy. No one points a gun at you.

We are talking about entertainment here, not like a DLC or a video game is a necessity.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 

I support what I like with my wallet and don't really care if people who don't like it care how it affects "the industry".  Those who don't like what I like can and do vote with their wallets.  Obviously subs aren't going anywhere soon because WoW is still cooking along strong with the recurring fee years later.

I'm not sure I understand why you care so much and lecture about what other people do with their entertainment dollars.

This ^^^

I vote with my wallet and my time and i don't apologize for my preference. It is just entertainment. Obviously i should enjoy it the way i want to.

Trying to lecture other how to "enjoy" their game .. is just ... silly.

Would you also be okay with buying a 60 dollar game, having half the content purposely locked out or/and removed...and for every hour of content, you must pay another 10 dollars? That is where things are heading at this rate...and people with more money than sense, will still support it.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

No wonder all the new MMOs fail. 

I understand better now why you have the stance you do - you have absolutely no understanding of how the business model works.  I get where your coming from now. If I was as unfamiliar with the subject matter as you are, I would probably feel the same way you do about the industry. Actually, I would either not concern myself with it or read up about it a bit before attempting to discuss it with others.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

 

You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

 

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

 

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

So you support the degradation of the industry?

I would say they disagree it is degradation, from their perspective it is improvement and they are suppporting an improvement of the industry.

I just can't see how anyone thinks it would be an improvement to purposely cut out features and release them as day 1 dlc...

 

maybe pay to win I could see. They don't want to grind 50 hours a week to get items...or they don't have time to play MMOs and want to keep up with others.

 

The latter maybe...the former...how the heck is that an improvement?

 Well for one it is typically free to get into and they can play a good portion free.   2. having content that they can choose to purchase or not lets them decide what they would like to play and how to spend their money.

I guess they feel that any negatives to that are outweighed by the positives. 

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by TheScavenger

So you support the degradation of the industry?

I would say they disagree it is degradation, from their perspective it is improvement and they are suppporting an improvement of the industry.

I just can't see how anyone thinks it would be an improvement to purposely cut out features and release them as day 1 dlc...

maybe pay to win I could see. They don't want to grind 50 hours a week to get items...or they don't have time to play MMOs and want to keep up with others.

The latter maybe...the former...how the heck is that an improvement?

See, you're assuming that how you perceive the situation and how those who disagree with you perceive the situation are the same.  You're also lumping everyone who likes F2P, B2P, or Freemium in the same group just like you're lumping all micro-transactions and F2P business models in the same group.

My arguments with you haven't been to try and convince you to like "F2P" where as you're trying to convice the rest of us to go P2P.  My arguments have been to try and show you that those who disagree have a different perspective than you do.  They see the situation differently and some of us see P2P games having the same trappings as F2P (p2w, etc) wrapped in a different package.

The bottom line, for me, is that I get to play some really cool games I like.  Those games have all cost me less than their P2P cousins yet still offer me a lot of entertainment and fun with my family and friends.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Would you also be okay with buying a 60 dollar game, having half the content purposely locked out or/and removed...and for every hour of content, you must pay another 10 dollars? That is where things are heading at this rate...and people with more money than sense, will still support it.

Depends on the game, of course.

If a game is fun enough that half of the content is worth more than $60 to me, then yes. Otherwise no.

And i highly doubt that would be the case, since there are so many F2P, Freemium games. IF a F2P is fun enough, why would i even pay $60 for any game? It has to be superb.

BTW, i am ok with the practice, since it is not MY game. The devs are free to price it anyway they want to. However, in this particular case, it is very unlikely that i will purchase. And i am ok with that too. I don't have to play every game on the planet, you know.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Would you also be okay with buying a 60 dollar game, having half the content purposely locked out or/and removed...and for every hour of content, you must pay another 10 dollars? That is where things are heading at this rate...and people with more money than sense, will still support it.

Depends on the game, of course.

If a game is fun enough that half of the content is worth more than $60 to me, then yes. Otherwise no.

And i highly doubt that would be the case, since there are so many F2P, Freemium games. IF a F2P is fun enough, why would i even pay $60 for any game? It has to be superb.

BTW, i am ok with the practice, since it is not MY game. The devs are free to price it anyway they want to. However, in this particular case, it is very unlikely that i will purchase. And i am ok with that too. I don't have to play every game on the planet, you know.

Word.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 

See, you're assuming that how you perceive the situation and how those who disagree with you perceive the situation are the same.  You're also lumping everyone who likes F2P, B2P, or Freemium in the same group just like you're lumping all micro-transactions and F2P business models in the same group.

My arguments with you haven't been to try and convince you to like "F2P" where as you're trying to convice the rest of us to go P2P.  My arguments have been to try and show you that those who disagree have a different perspective than you do.  They see the situation differently and some of us see P2P games having the same trappings as F2P (p2w, etc) wrapped in a different package.

The bottom line, for me, is that I get to play some really cool games I like.  Those games have all cost me less than their P2P cousins yet still offer me a lot of entertainment and fun with my family and friends.

Finally, this is just a forum. I highly doubt whatever being said here will affect the market much.

Fact: F2P is gaining share over P2P.

Fact: F2P is growing in revenue.

Fact: I play lots of F2P games without paying a dime (or at least part of some games).

All good from my point of view.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Maybe you misread my post.  I never said I couldn't pay the sub or wouldn't pay the sub.  I said I am STILL paying a subscription but since I didn't buy the expansion I'm locked out of content, at a disadvantage, and alienated from the main community with regards to game play.

No, I did not misread your post. Paying a subscription is paying to access content the same way that paying an expansion is paying to access content. If you don't pay your subscription, your character can't progress any further. Likewise, if you don't pay for the expansion your character will also stop progressing. Therefore, by your rationale, subscriptions make P2P games P2W, since you consider expansions to be P2W.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Let me provide a few examples to further enlighten my point on Freemium models breaking immersion.

You're running around town looking for citizens that require your assistance, you turn a corner and among the shadows of an abandoned alley you spot a desolate little girl that has clearly been weaping. You approach her and offer an ear to hear her tale of dismay, and as she concludes her explanation of the events that have led to her current state of being, you decide to lend her some assistance. A new window appears on your screen, what could this be? "In order to accept this quest, you must first buy the "Desolate Girl Quest Pack" now for a special price of $4.99!"

You decide to group up with a wizard you met nearby and embark in an epic adventure to reach the depths of an ancient dragon's lair. You are both ready to begin, mounted on your horses, and as you begin your journey, the wizard disbands and rides elsewhere. Puzzled, you ask him the reason for such abruptness. "Can't do that dungeon, sorry! Have to buy it." 

Good point, that would kinda ruin the moment to say the least.

Ive never had this happen, but it is certainly possible in a few MMO's that i know of.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Maybe you misread my post.  I never said I couldn't pay the sub or wouldn't pay the sub.  I said I am STILL paying a subscription but since I didn't buy the expansion I'm locked out of content, at a disadvantage, and alienated from the main community with regards to game play.

No, I did not misread your post. Paying a subscription is paying to access content the same way that paying an expansion is paying to access content. If you don't pay your subscription, your character can't progress any further. Likewise, if you don't pay for the expansion your character will also stop progressing. Therefore, by your rationale, subscriptions make P2P games P2W, since you consider expansions to be P2W.

 Hmm I don't see it that way.  Paying for an expansion is over and above the suscription.  It's extra and does allow me to get more.

I see the two as seperate issues. 

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Maybe you misread my post.  I never said I couldn't pay the sub or wouldn't pay the sub.  I said I am STILL paying a subscription but since I didn't buy the expansion I'm locked out of content, at a disadvantage, and alienated from the main community with regards to game play.

No, I did not misread your post. Paying a subscription is paying to access content the same way that paying an expansion is paying to access content. If you don't pay your subscription, your character can't progress any further. Likewise, if you don't pay for the expansion your character will also stop progressing. Therefore, by your rationale, subscriptions make P2P games P2W, since you consider expansions to be P2W.

But wasn't that the point of the original argument?  F2P/Freemium games gate, bar, and restrict you unless you pony up more cash to get past the gate.  That is what I was responding to if you look back.  P2P games are the same way.   If you don't pony up more cash then you're restricted and if F2P games are p2w by that definition then P2P games are too.

P2P games don't get a pass on what they charge just because "well that's what they charge" because you could say the same thing about F2P.

And that is the most boggling thing I find in these arguments, that P2P isn't scrutinized under the same microscope that F2P is yet has most of the same trappings packaged a little differently.

Originally posted by Bookah

Originally posted by stealthbr

Let me provide a few examples to further enlighten my point on Freemium models breaking immersion.

You're running around town looking for citizens that require your assistance, you turn a corner and among the shadows of an abandoned alley you spot a desolate little girl that has clearly been weaping. You approach her and offer an ear to hear her tale of dismay, and as she concludes her explanation of the events that have led to her current state of being, you decide to lend her some assistance. A new window appears on your screen, what could this be? "In order to accept this quest, you must first buy the "Desolate Girl Quest Pack" now for a special price of $4.99!"

You decide to group up with a wizard you met nearby and embark in an epic adventure to reach the depths of an ancient dragon's lair. You are both ready to begin, mounted on your horses, and as you begin your journey, the wizard disbands and rides elsewhere. Puzzled, you ask him the reason for such abruptness. "Can't do that dungeon, sorry! Have to buy it." 

Good point, that would kinda ruin the moment to say the least.

Ive never had this happen, but it is certainly possible in a few MMO's that i know of.

@Bookah, it happens all the time and been happening for a decade or more. It's called "Not having the expansion pack."

@Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

Originally posted by Loktofeit

@Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

You, sir, are hilarious!

Originally posted by Torvaldr

<snip>

My analogy was made to show how I believe your point is flawed. Still, I still stand by the argument that there is a vast difference between buying access to content to potentially receive rewards, and simply buying the rewards directly.