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146 posts found
  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 699

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 4:13:46 PM#41
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger
 

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

^doesn't PvP

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 147

11/29/12 4:18:00 PM#42
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger
 

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

^doesn't PvP

Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

11/29/12 4:19:12 PM#43
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Sub / P2P games are P2W because if you don't buy the xpacs you're locked out of content even if you're still locked into the subscription.

Not every pay to play MMO has expansions. And not all expansions you have to pay for.

Not every free to play or freemium mmo requires you to buy expansions either.  See how crazy generalizations can work both ways?  Just like not every P2P mmo works the same neither does every F2P / Freemium mmo.

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Odd, because I'm pretty sure that since I didn't buy the Storm Legion expansion I'm locked out of progression and gated from the rest of the game and NOT on a level playing field with everyone else even though I've paid for my subscription time.

Every single game requires you to pay to unlock something.  P2P games require you to pay to unlock acces to the game period and some require more payments after that.  F2P games require you to pay to unlock or purchase some aspects of the game.  B2P requires an up front fee to access the game.  There is a total cost of access for all games.  It has been my experience that I'm spending less on my F2P/B2P games than I have with my P2P games and enjoying the former as much or more than the latter.

It's a preference.  That's my point.  There is no moral issue at hand here as the P2P crowd likes to push - oh it's bad for the genre, oh it's too restrictive for me, etc.  It's just one more option to pay for my entertainment.  I will choose whatever method suits me.  If a P2P game came along that offered deep engaging systems and all content with no micro-transactions or rmt then I would probably sub up again if I liked the game.  No game on the market fits that for me right now.

Curse you AquaScum!

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 699

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 4:21:06 PM#44
Originally posted by RandomDown
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger
 

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

^doesn't PvP

Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

Take DDO. They are putting in a +4 stat tome in the cash shop. A PvE game, but a +4 stat tome "was" the rarest item (well one of the rarest) in the game. Now everyone will be forced to buy it. Good for those that don't have time for MMOs (then its the wrong genre, MMOs are most time consuming genre in industry)...want a large advantage over someone...but now everyone will be required to get the +4 stat tome.

 

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

 

And this is a perfect example of why pay to play games, and not freemium, are way better. And also true free to plays, the ones that started out free...(though some are pay to win as well)

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 147

11/29/12 4:25:58 PM#45
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by RandomDown
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger
 

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

^doesn't PvP

Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

Take DDO. They are putting in a +4 stat tome in the cash shop. A PvE game, but a +4 stat tome "was" the rarest item (well one of the rarest) in the game. Now everyone will be forced to buy it. Good for those that don't have time for MMOs (then its the wrong genre, MMOs are most time consuming genre in industry)...want a large advantage over someone...but now everyone will be required to get the +4 stat tome.

 

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

 

And this is a perfect example of why pay to play games, and not freemium, are way better. And also true free to plays, the ones that started out free...(though some are pay to win as well)

So you point out how he doesn't pvp as if it is an at all relevant statement then use a wholly pve game except for the arena that few to none use?

 

The guy above you makes a great point. Sub games still are pay to win. He can't participate any longer, and he is not on an equal playing field in pvp anymore since those folks are a higher level with newer and more powerful gear. So no, sub game aren't really all that different. 

 

The +4 tome gives an advantage but those people who don't have it aren't required to have it, that is a fallacious statement. They are still relevant in the dungeons and other content even if they don't. Even non-reinc characters can particpate. They can still complete the dungeons with other first run chars and non +4'd so no its not. It is for people who would rather bypass the time investment since they value their leisure differently (so no MMOs can still be the right genre for them).

  gordiflu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 764

11/29/12 4:31:55 PM#46

OP: Vote with your wallet. Simple.

I don't like freemium either. I used to play Lotro. Went freemium. Left the game. Used to play CO. Went freemium. Left the game. I went back to VG. VG went freemium. Left again.

Not playing any MMO at the moment. If the industry wants my money, it will have to offer me something appealing. I know I am only one potential customer, but, oh man, if more people did the same instead of complaining while giving money to these companies anyway...

 

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 699

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 4:32:59 PM#47
Originally posted by RandomDown
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by RandomDown
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger
 

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

^doesn't PvP

Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

Take DDO. They are putting in a +4 stat tome in the cash shop. A PvE game, but a +4 stat tome "was" the rarest item (well one of the rarest) in the game. Now everyone will be forced to buy it. Good for those that don't have time for MMOs (then its the wrong genre, MMOs are most time consuming genre in industry)...want a large advantage over someone...but now everyone will be required to get the +4 stat tome.

 

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

 

And this is a perfect example of why pay to play games, and not freemium, are way better. And also true free to plays, the ones that started out free...(though some are pay to win as well)

So you point out how he doesn't pvp as if it is an at all relevant statement then use a wholly pve game except for the arena that few to none use?

 Point still resides. DDO and LOTRO have turned into pay to win games. Granted they focus on PvE...and I'm not aware of any pvp MMO that is freemium, then again I don't really know any PvP freemium MMO (all of them as far as I know are pay to play/buy to play)...

The guy above you makes a great point. Sub games still are pay to win. He can't participate any longer, and he is not on an equal playing field in pvp anymore since those folks are a higher level with newer and more powerful gear. So no, sub game aren't really all that different. 

 If he doesn't play for a month in a free MMO, than everyone who played that month is now far ahead of him. So yes, I agree, not that different. 

The +4 tome gives an advantage but those people who don't have it aren't required to have it, that is a fallacious statement. They are still relevant in the dungeons and other content even if they don't. Even non-reinc characters can particpate. They can still complete the dungeons with other first run chars and non +4'd so no its not. It is for people who would rather bypass the time investment since they value their leisure differently (so no MMOs can still be the right genre for them).

Pay to win

 

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/29/12 4:36:08 PM#48

F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

 

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/29/12 4:44:10 PM#49
Originally posted by stealthbPS: I think you should focus more on maintaining a healthy discussion by providing arguments that counter my points instead of simply saying: "That's your opinion!" or "Link or it's false!" Use a bit of reasoning

 

Asking you to back your claims with proof is unreasonable? That's silly. I mean, if you can't support your claims, just man up to it, but to say I'm being unreasonable for not accepting "Just look around you, man" as a a supporting argument is plain silly.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 699

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 4:44:56 PM#50
Originally posted by Jonoku

F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

 

What? You mean that others are paying to win at the arcade? Man that is just not fair! I should play for free! Pay to win!

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/29/12 4:50:44 PM#51
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Jonoku

F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

 

What? You mean that others are paying to win at the arcade? Man that is just not fair! I should play for free! Pay to win!

huh? I'm confused, looks like your talking about something I'm not talking about, lol.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 699

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 4:52:42 PM#52
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Jonoku

F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

 

What? You mean that others are paying to win at the arcade? Man that is just not fair! I should play for free! Pay to win!

huh? I'm confused, looks like your talking about something I'm not talking about, lol.

I was just exaggerating to prove a point and agreeing with you at the same time :P

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

11/29/12 4:58:56 PM#53
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/29/12 5:04:18 PM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 699

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 5:11:33 PM#55
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

No wonder all the new MMOs fail. 

 

Well except EVE, RIFT and WoW...

 

Wonder if these are the same people that are okay with or/and buy day 1 DLC...I mean, if they want to downgrade the MMO genre so much to pay to win...than I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are fine with first day DLC...

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1059

 
OP  11/29/12 7:08:39 PM#56
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by stealthbPS: I think you should focus more on maintaining a healthy discussion by providing arguments that counter my points instead of simply saying: "That's your opinion!" or "Link or it's false!" Use a bit of reasoning

Asking you to back your claims with proof is unreasonable? That's silly. I mean, if you can't support your claims, just man up to it, but to say I'm being unreasonable for not accepting "Just look around you, man" as a a supporting argument is plain silly.

Seriously? It is a bit obvious that I can't link the things you ask for. Unless I am conducting a full-on research where I am taking screenshots all the time showing people not accepting Freemiums into their parties or whatever, then there is simply no way to link what goes on within an in-game community. Your entire post does indeed derive into the following: "Link or I can't accept it" and "Your opinion!". Obviously it's my opinion. As I said before, I experienced something and then applied reason in order to deduce the cause in order to formulate said opinion. My "P.S." is a critique to your post as you bring up absolutely no point at all. You have no argument, you have no counter-points. Instead of using a bit of logic like several other posters did here in order to bring up a point of your own, you simply try to attack my points in the most ridiculous of ways.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

11/29/12 7:21:31 PM#57
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

Absolutely agreed.  And, as I pointed out above (where scavenger didn't respond - really what could he say?) P2P games are just as P2W as F2P games.  The whole P2W slogan is just a propoganda marketing blurb anyway.  I file that in with Web2.0, Dynamic Content, "Sandbox style", and the rest of the empty buzzwords.

Really, if people don't like F2P or Freemium they can vote with their wallets.  I'm voting with mine in regards to subscriptions at the moment.

Curse you AquaScum!

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1059

 
OP  11/29/12 7:37:56 PM#58
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Absolutely agreed.  And, as I pointed out above (where scavenger didn't respond - really what could he say?) P2P games are just as P2W as F2P games.  The whole P2W slogan is just a propoganda marketing blurb anyway.  I file that in with Web2.0, Dynamic Content, "Sandbox style", and the rest of the empty buzzwords.

Really, if people don't like F2P or Freemium they can vote with their wallets.  I'm voting with mine in regards to subscriptions at the moment.

No, P2P is not P2W. In P2P games, you pay to play the content, in Freemium games, you buy the reward that one would obtain from playing the content. That, my friend, is P2W. I can do 1 raid 20 times in order to get a full list of rewards for my 20th completion with HOPES of getting a +4 tome as a reward, or I can cash some money in and get my tome, just like that. And a +4 does make a hell of a difference when you want to be the best or have the best builds. It can possiblly influence your feat selection, it most definitely influences one's stat distribution at creation and at level ups, it can influence enhancement choices, it can influence gear selection, etc. It's a real game changer.

Oh, and might I add that DDO uses the d20 system. AKA, every little bonus counts! Rolling a 10+6 or a 10+8 can be the difference between surviving an encounter or dying.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/29/12 9:37:03 PM#59
Originally posted by stealthbr

No, P2P is not P2W. In P2P games, you pay to play the content, in Freemium games, you buy the reward that one would obtain from playing the content.

I think you've repeated that BS line to yourself so many times that you actually believe it. Yes, in DDO there's a +4 item you can buy that's powerful. Someone else might have a slightly bigger ePeen than you in DDO. You keep regurgitating the rare exception as the norm, and i think you['re truly convinced that if you say it often enough it will magically come true.

Dude, if that +4 whatever bothers you, just buy the damn thing or play a different game. Your obsession with it is unhealthy.

 

EDIT: And for the love of all that is holy, don't ever play War Rock - your head will explode.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3618

11/29/12 10:01:34 PM#60
Originally posted by mmoDAD
I like the Freemium model. There are so many more players. While I might not be able to converse with them all, knowing and seeing they are there enriches my gaming experience. There is nothing worse via MMOs than a P2P game that is dead and empty.

      Yeah I agree...I think the freemium and f2p models add a nice populace and not all of them are bad......There are jsut as many jerks that pay as there are that dont (those of us that played WoW can attest to that)......Personally I prefer to try a game for free and play a few levels, then decide if I like it and will pay....More often than not I was gald that I didnt have to pay as most games now are crap and are not worth a sub fee.

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