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146 posts found
  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

11/28/12 11:46:46 PM#21
Originally posted by Wizardry

 

If you look at the Eq2 SOE model,you pay 15 bucks a month,pay more for housing,buy new xpacs,pay extra for content like the dungeon building content,it is like they are trying to get 30 bucks a month plus an extra xpac ort two a year out of us.

 

You don't have to pay more for housing, there are *plenty* of in game housing options.  The dungeon maker content can be earned in game and is bought with currency from running dungeons and having your dungeons as well.  Yes, some of it you can buy to speed up things, but you don't have to.

EQ2 has one of the better systems because except for the recent expansions none of the content is locked, its all free.  And its not p2w, being subbed gives you full power.  Turbine has been slipping down the slope towards p2w, if anything SoE has backed off.  When they went full freemium they actually removed the gear which was being sold on the f2p server (and even that was just easily obtainable in game gear)

  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 146

11/29/12 1:13:53 AM#22
Originally posted by Wizardry

Two major reasons i despise it...

1 they are looking for ways to get more money out of you,liek the 15 bucks a month wasn't enough already.

2 You now have to pay extra to get content you would normally get for the one time price of 15 bucks.EQ2 is a brutal example,you pay 15 bucks and yo ustill don't get some housing or some newer content.

If you look at the Eq2 SOE model,you pay 15 bucks a month,pay more for housing,buy new xpacs,pay extra for content like the dungeon building content,it is like they are trying to get 30 bucks a month plus an extra xpac ort two a year out of us.

It is bad enough games have been really getting bad for delivering depth or just common content.Most games are delivering really shallow gameplay and a few maps.

 

Thats because 15 dollars isnt enough. That number hasn't risen at all with inflation while other costs have. Would you complain if it didn't have all those other things you could pay for and charged double that? It only makes sense that they want to maximize their revenue since, well, they are a business. But discounting that and looking at it from a standpoint they do it purely because they like to develop games, they still need money to cover their costs and then invest into continuing development of content and so would either charge substantially more or do those sort of transactions.

  samvenice

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/11
Posts: 91

11/29/12 2:44:51 AM#23
Originally posted by RandomDown

Thats because 15 dollars isnt enough. That number hasn't risen at all with inflation while other costs have.

And other costs have been dramatically lowered to close to nothing, compared to what it was back in the day:

  • server hosting (new technologies with less power consumption and cheaper to build)
  • bandwidth (my first ISP 18 years ago had a super expensive connection that was 1/500 of what I have now)
  • maintenance (virtualization makes everything easy even in case of absolute disaster).
Last but not least, who said prices have to go up? In the past year, I've seen prices go DOWN for quite a few things (including my own private utility bills, and by a longshot, real estate prices, rent prices, food, beer - and I currently live in Spain - so go figure)
 
15 is more than enough, the sub should actually go into the 9,99 range, considering that almost everyone makes you pay for major expansions (expansions that do not come with 1month gametime included)
 
Bear in mind I do have a full time job and disposable income, I would probably pay 20 or more if it was worth it (Daoc2.0).
 
Closing up, I still think Freemium is the way to go.
  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 146

11/29/12 2:51:55 AM#24

And that 15 never went up with inflation for all the years your other prices did. So to be fair we should calculate the rise for inflation then lower it, then that would be a reasonable comparison because that price point has been with the industry for years.

 

The human cost has not gone down, in fact is has gone up since to make an AAA mmo which is what everyone here demands, it takes a large team with experience and knowledge to do it and that doesn't come cheap. Even if you move or make the studio somewhere that has a relatively low COL you still have to do a lot of initial investment in reality then to appeal to these skilled laborers you'll have to invest in relocation among other things, since why would they want ot risk their own money to relocate given the game industry and its nature of dumping large portions of its staff once the development cycle is complete? Even an MMO doesn't need the entirety of its dev staff after release. There is a live team and a development staff.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4732

11/29/12 2:54:44 AM#25
Revenue models like Freemium have been bringing us poor quality in the MMO world for years now. Indeed they have helped make poor quality the norm.
  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3173

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/29/12 3:40:49 AM#26
Originally posted by stealthbr

With so many titles adopting the Freemium model and relinquishing their Pay to Play roots, it has come to my attention that I severly dislike the industry's new direction regarding business models. The Freemium model, that has been adapted to quite a few large MMORPG's, as of now, establishes complications that I, as an avid MMORPG gamer, find hard to cope with. Of course, the Freemium model does have its benefits, I will not deny such a thing. Yet, in all honesty, I believe it does not bode well with the qualities I look for when searching for a new MMORPG to play.

1.) The Freemium model affects a game's community.

Quite evidently, the Freemium model makes a game more accessible to the general populace. This in turn, however, has many negative impacts on a game's community. First, it absolutely cripples a game's ability to form and maintain a predominant, yet tight-knit community. The Freemium model makes it easy for completely new players to come into a game, yet not commit to it. This creates a flux that makes it difficult for a proper community to establish. Not only that, the players that are attracted to Freemium models can disrupt a community through their maturity level. Finally, the Freemium model has the tendency of separating the player-base into those that decide to spend some cash and those that do not. This leads to a sort of discrimantion within the community and only serves to fragment it even more.

2.) The Freemium model disconnects a player from the game world and lessens immersion.

From loading screens to NPC vendors, the developers of Freemium games are in constant action trying to promote their real-world-money-bought items. The ever-so present advertisements are a constant reminder that you are not role-playing your character within a virtual world, but playing a game where real-world money can net you benefits. It is also important to point out that developers in the Freemium model have the monetization of content and features as a primary concern. The way they develop content is drastically affected by the Freemium model, because they are constantly searching for the easiest ways to monetize the game.

3.) The Freemium model encourages Pay to Win.

The Freemium model allows players to buy items of power with real-world money. Sure, a lot of these items can be obtained through more standard means, like actually playing the game, yet it diminishes absurdly the feeling of accomplishment from obtaining these items. Imagine spending hours in a dungeon trying to obtain a powerful new sword for your warrior, finally getting it only to step out into the game world to see that someone else has the same item, and finding out that they didn't work for it like you did, they bought it off the store. It is absolutely buzz-killing. Not only that, the model tempts you into buying advantages for your character because MMO's are about playing with others, and most importantly against others. Even in a PvE scenario, you compare yourself to someone who has forked some cash over and they progress faster, they have access to cooler things, etc. No one wants to fall behind or feel less powerful.

Suffice to say, it is a model that goes against the MMO, in MMORPG, by crippling and separating communities, and against the RPG, by allowing players to take shortcuts by spending real-world cash, always reminding us that we are not role-playing a powerful mage or a renowned knight, but instead playing a game where money can absolutely dictate how we engage it.

 

 

Not all Freemium models are the same. EVE has effectively been a "freemuim" game almost since the beginning, and hasn't suffered the issues you describe, or at least not so much that they outweight the benefits.

The devil is in the details. A well set-up, balanced freemium model can work well. A poorly conceived, exploitative one can cause problems as you describe.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

11/29/12 3:47:02 AM#27

/yep

same with any forum of instancing in mmos also tho.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Seelinnikoi

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 434

11/29/12 3:50:26 AM#28

STEALTHBR, were you playing Lotro?

 

If yes, I feel you man... you took the words out of my mouth. 

  stealthbr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

 
OP  11/29/12 6:31:16 AM#29
Originally posted by Malcanis

Not all Freemium models are the same. EVE has effectively been a "freemuim" game almost since the beginning, and hasn't suffered the issues you describe, or at least not so much that they outweight the benefits.

The devil is in the details. A well set-up, balanced freemium model can work well. A poorly conceived, exploitative one can cause problems as you describe.

 

The only players that are going to play EVE for "free" are the more advanced and established ones that can afford to buy PLEX every month. EVE is a P2P game at its core.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

11/29/12 7:59:29 AM#30
same
  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

11/29/12 8:04:19 AM#31
Originally posted by Seelinnikoi

STEALTHBR, were you playing Lotro?

 

If yes, I feel you man... you took the words out of my mouth. 

Yeah. Lotro when went freemium made me hate this model, and I really tried to embrace it and try to 'cope' with freemium and cash shop.   Never ever again.   Horrible experience and horrible waste of time.    I really just regret I have not quit Lotro on first day freemium was announced.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

11/29/12 8:45:35 AM#32
Originally posted by samvenice
Originally posted by RandomDown

Thats because 15 dollars isnt enough. That number hasn't risen at all with inflation while other costs have.

And other costs have been dramatically lowered to close to nothing, compared to what it was back in the day:

  • server hosting (new technologies with less power consumption and cheaper to build)
  • bandwidth (my first ISP 18 years ago had a super expensive connection that was 1/500 of what I have now)
  • maintenance (virtualization makes everything easy even in case of absolute disaster).
Last but not least, who said prices have to go up? In the past year, I've seen prices go DOWN for quite a few things (including my own private utility bills, and by a longshot, real estate prices, rent prices, food, beer - and I currently live in Spain - so go figure)
 
15 is more than enough, the sub should actually go into the 9,99 range, considering that almost everyone makes you pay for major expansions (expansions that do not come with 1month gametime included)
 
Bear in mind I do have a full time job and disposable income, I would probably pay 20 or more if it was worth it (Daoc2.0).
 
Closing up, I still think Freemium is the way to go.

So you think a software developer salary in 1999 is comparable to one in 2012?  Thats the biggest cost for an MMO.  

The games that havent chosen alternative models are either old games with little to no staff (DAoC), games with massive numbers of subscriptions to cover the (mostly) fixed salary cost (WoW, whiich has a cash shop anyway because they can), or games that are still unsure of if they will need to make a change (Rift, and I bet if you come back in a year their cash shop will have more than a mount + 2 CE upgrades...that $15 mount is proof enough they were concerned about their revenues)

  stealthbr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

 
OP  11/29/12 9:26:34 AM#33
Originally posted by Seelinnikoi

STEALTHBR, were you playing Lotro?

 

If yes, I feel you man... you took the words out of my mouth. 

I was playing DDO and SWTOR, but DDO is also made by Turbine so I can imagine the similarities. In SWTOR, it's even worse. 

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1025

11/29/12 9:36:29 AM#34
i believe that if you started with a "Freemium" model you could, in theory, produce a quality model. When games switch to this model that problems arise. Just as when you convert a car to a boat. Sure it can be done, it may even float....but it wont be nearly as fun as when it was just a car, and is most likley a lame boat.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5159

Opportunist

11/29/12 2:55:28 PM#35
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Sub / P2P games are P2W because if you don't buy the xpacs you're locked out of content even if you're still locked into the subscription.

Not every pay to play MMO has expansions. And not all expansions you have to pay for.

Not every free to play or freemium mmo requires you to buy expansions either.  See how crazy generalizations can work both ways?  Just like not every P2P mmo works the same neither does every F2P / Freemium mmo.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5159

Opportunist

11/29/12 3:02:17 PM#36
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by Seelinnikoi

STEALTHBR, were you playing Lotro?

If yes, I feel you man... you took the words out of my mouth. 

I was playing DDO and SWTOR, but DDO is also made by Turbine so I can imagine the similarities. In SWTOR, it's even worse. 

LotRO is by and far worse than DDO.  Since DDO can easily be packaged into modules like the original D&D it's not quite so bad.  With LotRO every window and interface item has a button to spend money.  Just like TOR it is the extreme end of gouge.  There are some really neat aspect to the game where ambience and role playing are concerned, but it totally looks much more superficial than it used to.

I just reinstalled LotRO because my son and brother are interested.  I hadn't logged into the game in about 380 days so I'm checking it out with a fresh perspective.  I'm pretty hard on Turbine, and I think reasonably so, and I want revisit how the game looks, feels, and plays after a year.

  TheScavenger

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 672

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

11/29/12 3:07:07 PM#37
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Sub / P2P games are P2W because if you don't buy the xpacs you're locked out of content even if you're still locked into the subscription.

Not every pay to play MMO has expansions. And not all expansions you have to pay for.

Not every free to play or freemium mmo requires you to buy expansions either.  See how crazy generalizations can work both ways?  Just like not every P2P mmo works the same neither does every F2P / Freemium mmo.

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

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  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2645

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

11/29/12 3:10:44 PM#38

I disagree. Fremium to me is the best model for F2P goes. Due to having subs being the basis of a 'all access' pass, it helps to give players who just want to p2p the option to do so without losing content when done right. Those playing free can often times get that content through in game methods depending on the game and content is often times done in a way allowing it to be paid for in pieces. DDO does this very well (in part due to its game design) which I feel is plausible with Freemium for people to pay for stuff WITHOUT making it impend your experience that much.

 

F2P will often give far bigger advantages to the player that ends up leaving players unsatisfied. Freemium can offer some minor boosts such as increased xp rate or other features, but a F2P is far more likely to offer these things for a cost.

 

Don't get me wrong, I prefer pure sub, but if a game HAD to go F2P in some way, I'd rather it be a well designed Freemium model over F2P. its far less likely to need to rely upon nickle and diming the users as much as possible.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/29/12 3:12:31 PM#39
The reason why Pay to play is disappearing is because mmos nowadays aren't worthy of Pay to Play 15 bucks a month. So they lower themselves to Freemium.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17930

11/29/12 3:13:16 PM#40
Originally posted by TheScavenger
 

Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

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