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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by Lobotomist

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Lead by an example if you really want to speak for 'us'. Start by stop buying and supporting games like GW2. When you cna do that i will take you more seriously.

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I will totally change my game buying habbits right now ! Because I really care that you personally take me seriously.

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So why even bother to make OP then? because if continue to support games like GW2 and then make an OP about wanting a world and ask 'if we will ever get it'. What is the point? just to raise the stink?   No one takes an alcoholic seriously when he gives advice to others on stop drinking because it is bad for their health. You need to stop drinking first and then you can speak on behalf of others. Simple logic. So yeah sorry bud but you do need to change your gaming habits to give credibility to your OP. All i see is double standards especially when you write stuff like this... And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012. Basically Single player games with other people running around. Sounds more like a politician talk to me.

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I wish people would stop trying to use analogies on forums. They just don't work. People do listen to alcoholics when they say you shouldn't drink, because (a) it's good advice and (b) they are a good example of what can happen to you if you're alcoholic and you drink. The problem with the OP is that there are people who don't want worlds, they want games. If this weren't the case, games like GW2 wouldn't sell millions of copies in a couple weeks. There is no "We", only "Me, and other people who think like me". It's the phrasing, nothing more.  

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My anology was just simple way to show that if you want others to agree with you on something and you decide to stand on the soapbox to speak on their behalf, it is better to lead by an example.

Supporting games like GW2 and then makign statements about 'wanting the world, sandbox and how games are pathetic in 2012' makes his whole OP very contradictory.

 

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There really aren't that many sandbox or 'world' games to choose from. It could be argued that you have Eve, and that's it. What if you want a game with a world, but you don't like Eve? What if the other games that have worlds just suck? Does that mean the OP should suffer through those cr@ppy games to prove a point?

It's not relevant whether the OP plays GW2 or not. What's relevant is how well they've argued their point. It's the argument that matters, attacking the person instead of the argument is just bad form. I think they've argued their point poorly. Simply put, a lot of people want games, not worlds. Their use of the term, "We" was poorly chosen.

Finally, analogies are just a poor way to get your point across. If your audience doesn't agree with or understand what you're saying without an analogy, using an analogy isn't going to help.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Whitebeards

 

Lead by an example if you really want to speak for 'us'.

Start by stop buying and supporting games like GW2. When you cna do that i will take you more seriously.

I will totally change my game buying habbits right now ! Because I really care that you personally take me seriously.

So why even bother to make OP then? because if continue to support games like GW2 and then make an OP about wanting a world and ask 'if we will ever get it'. What is the point? just to raise the stink?

No one takes an alcoholic seriously when he gives advice to others on stop drinking because it is bad for their health. You need to stop drinking first and then you can speak on behalf of others. Simple logic.

So yeah sorry bud but you do need to change your gaming habits to give credibility to your OP. All i see is double standards especially when you write stuff like this...

And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012. Basically Single player games with other people running around.

Sounds more like a politician talk to me.

Lets consider the crazy possibility that person can enjoy several different types of games.

GW2 is high quality game with very dedicated team behind it. Its fun CASUAL game. But should not be considered real MMO - world. As nothing made 2012 should.

And I think its also very important game for MMO history - because it put the nail in the coffin of subscription fees for themepark games.

I think everyone should buy it , and thus demonstrate that we dont want to pay subscription for shallow themepark games anymore.

 

Your OP doesn't come across as words of someone who is actually enjoying several different types of games.

But you are saying that you don't have problem playing shallow themepark MMOS but problem is that you don't want t pay sub for it? and how is that helpign the current situation which led you to make OP? mere words don't do crap. You keep getting shallow themepark MMOS because you and others keep paying for it. 

I really feel as if people are not asking for games instead of worlds.  I think the developers are just giving us games instead of worlds.

 

For all the people that are against this post, I'll bet a million dollars they would be playing and loving a world instead of a game !!!!

 

One last thing, GuildWars 2 is a game with others on line.

So true op!

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

There really aren't that many sandbox or 'world' games to choose from. 

I didnt read the thread, but sandbox and worlds are two 100% different things.

 

EQ1 wasnt a sandbox, but Norrath felt like a world

Vanilla World of Warcraft was a themepark, but it had a world feeling about it.

Rift ifeels like a game.  big difference.

 

GW2 is closer to the world feeling but i feel its not quite there.  the capital cities are by far the best thing in the game to that extent.  So full of life and flavor.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

There really aren't that many sandbox or 'world' games to choose from. It could be argued that you have Eve, and that's it. What if you want a game with a world, but you don't like Eve? What if the other games that have worlds just suck? Does that mean the OP should suffer through those cr@ppy games to prove a point?

It's not relevant whether the OP plays GW2 or not. What's relevant is how well they've argued their point. It's the argument that matters, attacking the person instead of the argument is just bad form. I think they've argued their point poorly. Simply put, a lot of people want games, not worlds. Their use of the term, "We" was poorly chosen.

Finally, analogies are just a poor way to get your point across. If your audience doesn't agree with or understand what you're saying without an analogy, using an analogy isn't going to help.

 

I have over 500 hours invested in GW2. How would you feel if i start preachign you all about sad state of themeparks in 2012 and then ask you a question 'why' and 'if we will ever get a world'? i would be such a hypocrite not to realise that i am actually part of the problem i am complaining about.

Ii think answer is obvious because people buy and support such games including OP according to whom GW2 is a shallow themepark MMO with one saving grace that is B2P.

And i fail to see where i attacked OP? telling him to practise what he preaches is an attack? well matter of prespective i guess.

 

Games are designed to engage you in some way, to allow you to experience something, to fulfill a desire to experience something. That 'something' might be a challenge, or an interesting story, or pretending to be somebody else. It might be a chance to show an aspect of yourself to others, or a chance to show others that you're more skilled than them.

There are many things that a game can offer you. It can offer you an experience based around discovery, if that's what you're looking for. Or expressing yourself. But you gain nothing by saying "Well, I don't want WoW or RIFT because those are games—what I want is a world." The thing you want is also a game! It's a game designed around core aesthetics that aren't even that uncommon. You may as well drop the act that there's something special about games that don't have any game in them.

Because—and think really hard about this, now—what are you accomplishing by badmouthing games in favor of so-called worlds? All you're trying to do is the same thing people did to gamers in general before video gaming went mainstream. You're name calling. The thing you're asking for is no less of a game than Black Ops or Borderlands or WoW; those are just designed to deliver a different experience (challenge, grinding, narrative). Describing your preferred game as something other than a game, something more than a game, is just pretentious.

Originally posted by Traugar

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Lobotomist

 

We dont want games - we want worlds.

 

I would love to see Koster do another MMO without the product getting rushed by higher ups.  The man was on the right track.

Its too bad Sony didn't hire Raph for EQnext then I would have been excited. Now its just a hope that it might be good instead of knowing.

Not to be rude or anything I don't mean to disrepect you or anyone else when I say this.  If you and whoever else agrees with your feeling.   Feel so strongly about it why aren't you willing to put up your own money to see it happen?  It's easy to say "Hey developers/publishers this it what I want from games".   When you aren't putting up your own time or money to make it happen. Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but thats all I constantly hear all the time. Complaints about the MMO genre. Armchair developers who have never worked on a game a day in their life that believe they can do it better.  People that sat in a guild with a few hundred people, and then believe they know what everyone wants. People that have played alot of MMO's and believe they can do it better.  Yet when it's all said in done, they want someone else to create what they believe is "the perfect MMO".

There is plenty of interest with the new kickstarter stuff thats been happening lately.  There are plenty of writers looking to prove their worth.  Plenty of game designers/programmers that are looking for somewhere to start.  Plenty of untapped artist out there. I mean if you all can really do something better, why not get the ball rolling there.  Why expect developers/publishers that have disappointed you so much in the past, to fork out money like that.

I know your post wasn't "pro-sandbox" thing. Though as someone else said earlier in this thread.  How many of you (not refering to you OP) have supported any of the sandboxes that have came out? Answer is probably not alot. Sandbox people are just too picky about things IMHO. The response you get from them when you ask them have they supported any of the recent or earlier sandboxes.  Always boils down to some lame excuse of it not having this, that, or the other.  Then the "oh it has a few bugs" people that refuse to play it for that minor reason.  So honestly as a developer/publisher who has to pay employees, has expenses, may or may not have a family to feed, and investors to answer to. Why should I gamble on a fickle group of players.  That at best since the days of UO have proven to be "niche".

Originally posted by Roin

Not to be rude or anything I don't mean to disrepect you or anyone else when I say this.  If you and whoever else agrees with your feeling.   Feel so strongly about it why aren't you willing to put up your own money to see it happen?  It's easy to say "Hey developers/publishers this it what I want from games".   When you aren't putting up your own time or money to make it happen. Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but thats all I constantly hear all the time. Complaints about the MMO genre. Armchair developers who have never worked on a game a day in their life that believe they can do it better.  People that sat in a guild with a few hundred people, and then believe they know what everyone wants. People that have played alot of MMO's and believe they can do it better.  Yet when it's all said in done, they want someone else to create what they believe is "the perfect MMO".

There is plenty of interest with the new kickstarter stuff thats been happening lately.  There are plenty of writers looking to prove their worth.  Plenty of game designers/programmers that are looking for somewhere to start.  Plenty of untapped artist out there. I mean if you all can really do something better, why not get the ball rolling there.  Why expect developers/publishers that have disappointed you so much in the past, to fork out money like that.

I know your post wasn't "pro-sandbox" thing. Though as someone else said earlier in this thread.  How many of you (not refering to you OP) have supported any of the sandboxes that have came out? Answer is probably not alot. Sandbox people are just too picky about things IMHO. The response you get from them when you ask them have they supported any of the recent or earlier sandboxes.  Always boils down to some lame excuse of it not having this, that, or the other.  Then the "oh it has a few bugs" people that refuse to play it for that minor reason.  So honestly as a developer/publisher who has to pay employees, has expenses, may or may not have a family to feed, and investors to answer to. Why should I gamble on a fickle group of players.  That at best since the days of UO have proven to be "niche".

Yea I will get right on that. 0_0 Just what I want to do give someone my money for a product that isn't even out yet. The track recored for sandbox games from hole in the wall companies is pretty bad. I will wait for a finished product before I decide to hand over my money. 

Originally posted by delete5230

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Well, I'm back to WoW Vanilla WoW that is.  Where life is hard again, I've been playing for days and only got to level 18 on my Druid.  I had to take two harvestings, Herblism and Skining because I'll need 90 gold by level 40.  Life in Darkshore is hard, at times I have to wait for someone to come along to help.  But you know what.....I'm making friends, this is something I have not seen in several years. " I have a friends list ", none of that auto group crap. I was out of town for a month and found that I just could not log into GW2. Why?....That is not an mmo.  It's a game with others around you, bottom line ! 

Today I should be able to do the Deadmines as a Tank and I'm somewhat new to tanking, so I hope I do well.  If it's a total desaster I'll re-spec as a healer.  Without the dungeon finder I should be ok to find groups fast being a tank or a healer, along with using the social panel > who to search out others.

The server I'm on is only to level 60, but thats ok, It will take me forever to get their.  Try gogling Emralddream. I'm sooo sick of what we have today.  They are not mmo's.

Somis this an official vanilla wow server, what is the rule set. I left WOW before battlegrounds, i level to 60 and done all the content that was their at the time then left. I had a hunter which i really like, have they introduced the named pets that you use to get.

Im spent hours in one zone waiting for this cat that had a faster attack speed than other cats of that level.

 

I've actually played Vanguard since beta which really is a world and is a vast game that really takes you back to the days of EQ.

I would give vanilla WOW a go though just for a break though, is the server low population then.

Very populated...........And It's a community too, so you can't be a Ass Hat.

Any links to information.

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Well, I'm back to WoW Vanilla WoW that is.  Where life is hard again, I've been playing for days and only got to level 18 on my Druid.  I had to take two harvestings, Herblism and Skining because I'll need 90 gold by level 40.  Life in Darkshore is hard, at times I have to wait for someone to come along to help.  But you know what.....I'm making friends, this is something I have not seen in several years. " I have a friends list ", none of that auto group crap. I was out of town for a month and found that I just could not log into GW2. Why?....That is not an mmo.  It's a game with others around you, bottom line ! 

Today I should be able to do the Deadmines as a Tank and I'm somewhat new to tanking, so I hope I do well.  If it's a total desaster I'll re-spec as a healer.  Without the dungeon finder I should be ok to find groups fast being a tank or a healer, along with using the social panel > who to search out others.

The server I'm on is only to level 60, but thats ok, It will take me forever to get their.  Try gogling Emralddream. I'm sooo sick of what we have today.  They are not mmo's.

Somis this an official vanilla wow server, what is the rule set. I left WOW before battlegrounds, i level to 60 and done all the content that was their at the time then left. I had a hunter which i really like, have they introduced the named pets that you use to get.

Im spent hours in one zone waiting for this cat that had a faster attack speed than other cats of that level.

 

I've actually played Vanguard since beta which really is a world and is a vast game that really takes you back to the days of EQ.

I would give vanilla WOW a go though just for a break though, is the server low population then.

Very populated...........And It's a community too, so you can't be a Ass Hat.

Any links to information.

If its the same one I looked in to I passed on it. They couldn't do line of sight in the game so any npc can attack through walls etc. Was to much of a game breaker for me. 

Originally posted by Zeppelin4

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Well, I'm back to WoW Vanilla WoW that is.  Where life is hard again, I've been playing for days and only got to level 18 on my Druid.  I had to take two harvestings, Herblism and Skining because I'll need 90 gold by level 40.  Life in Darkshore is hard, at times I have to wait for someone to come along to help.  But you know what.....I'm making friends, this is something I have not seen in several years. " I have a friends list ", none of that auto group crap. I was out of town for a month and found that I just could not log into GW2. Why?....That is not an mmo.  It's a game with others around you, bottom line ! 

Today I should be able to do the Deadmines as a Tank and I'm somewhat new to tanking, so I hope I do well.  If it's a total desaster I'll re-spec as a healer.  Without the dungeon finder I should be ok to find groups fast being a tank or a healer, along with using the social panel > who to search out others.

The server I'm on is only to level 60, but thats ok, It will take me forever to get their.  Try gogling Emralddream. I'm sooo sick of what we have today.  They are not mmo's.

Somis this an official vanilla wow server, what is the rule set. I left WOW before battlegrounds, i level to 60 and done all the content that was their at the time then left. I had a hunter which i really like, have they introduced the named pets that you use to get.

Im spent hours in one zone waiting for this cat that had a faster attack speed than other cats of that level.

 

I've actually played Vanguard since beta which really is a world and is a vast game that really takes you back to the days of EQ.

I would give vanilla WOW a go though just for a break though, is the server low population then.

Very populated...........And It's a community too, so you can't be a Ass Hat.

Any links to information.

If its the same one I looked in to I passed on it. They couldn't do line of sight in the game so any npc can attack through walls etc. Was to much of a game breaker for me. 

So this is not an official Blizzard WOW vanilla server then?

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by Zeppelin4

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by delete5230

Well, I'm back to WoW Vanilla WoW that is.  Where life is hard again, I've been playing for days and only got to level 18 on my Druid.  I had to take two harvestings, Herblism and Skining because I'll need 90 gold by level 40.  Life in Darkshore is hard, at times I have to wait for someone to come along to help.  But you know what.....I'm making friends, this is something I have not seen in several years. " I have a friends list ", none of that auto group crap. I was out of town for a month and found that I just could not log into GW2. Why?....That is not an mmo.  It's a game with others around you, bottom line ! 

Today I should be able to do the Deadmines as a Tank and I'm somewhat new to tanking, so I hope I do well.  If it's a total desaster I'll re-spec as a healer.  Without the dungeon finder I should be ok to find groups fast being a tank or a healer, along with using the social panel > who to search out others.

The server I'm on is only to level 60, but thats ok, It will take me forever to get their.  Try gogling Emralddream. I'm sooo sick of what we have today.  They are not mmo's.

Somis this an official vanilla wow server, what is the rule set. I left WOW before battlegrounds, i level to 60 and done all the content that was their at the time then left. I had a hunter which i really like, have they introduced the named pets that you use to get.

Im spent hours in one zone waiting for this cat that had a faster attack speed than other cats of that level.

 

I've actually played Vanguard since beta which really is a world and is a vast game that really takes you back to the days of EQ.

I would give vanilla WOW a go though just for a break though, is the server low population then.

Very populated...........And It's a community too, so you can't be a Ass Hat.

Any links to information.

If its the same one I looked in to I passed on it. They couldn't do line of sight in the game so any npc can attack through walls etc. Was to much of a game breaker for me. 

So this is not an official Blizzard WOW vanilla server then?

Official? It was a emu server and from what I could see a pretty good one. Like I said though the line of sight issue was to much of a game breaker for me.  Maybe it has changed since the last time I looked which was about a year ago. 

Originally posted by Roin

Not to be rude or anything I don't mean to disrepect you or anyone else when I say this.  If you and whoever else agrees with your feeling.   Feel so strongly about it why aren't you willing to put up your own money to see it happen?  It's easy to say "Hey developers/publishers this it what I want from games".   When you aren't putting up your own time or money to make it happen. Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but thats all I constantly hear all the time. Complaints about the MMO genre. Armchair developers who have never worked on a game a day in their life that believe they can do it better.  People that sat in a guild with a few hundred people, and then believe they know what everyone wants. People that have played alot of MMO's and believe they can do it better.  Yet when it's all said in done, they want someone else to create what they believe is "the perfect MMO".

There is plenty of interest with the new kickstarter stuff thats been happening lately.  There are plenty of writers looking to prove their worth.  Plenty of game designers/programmers that are looking for somewhere to start.  Plenty of untapped artist out there. I mean if you all can really do something better, why not get the ball rolling there.  Why expect developers/publishers that have disappointed you so much in the past, to fork out money like that.

I know your post wasn't "pro-sandbox" thing. Though as someone else said earlier in this thread.  How many of you (not refering to you OP) have supported any of the sandboxes that have came out? Answer is probably not alot. Sandbox people are just too picky about things IMHO. The response you get from them when you ask them have they supported any of the recent or earlier sandboxes.  Always boils down to some lame excuse of it not having this, that, or the other.  Then the "oh it has a few bugs" people that refuse to play it for that minor reason.  So honestly as a developer/publisher who has to pay employees, has expenses, may or may not have a family to feed, and investors to answer to. Why should I gamble on a fickle group of players.  That at best since the days of UO have proven to be "niche".

So basically what you are saying is that if a customer wants something they need to make it themselves or pay to have it done? I guess the whole theory of consumer-producer system is completely lost on you?

This is how it works. A producer gauges the market and tries to see where the demand is. He then creates a product to fit that demand to make a profit. A customer is only obliged to somehow communicate to a producer what he wants and then buy the said product, he is under no obligation whatsoever to create it himself. That is not how the market works.

Kickstarter is an abbhoration. It basically feeds on peoples hopes so they give up their money for a non existant product. How it normally would work is that the producer will get investors who pay a certain amount of money for a piece of the company and that is how they fund a project, alternatively it can be a loan with something as collateral. But an investor is not the consumer so again the consumer has no obligation whatsoever to fund a project, only to buy a finished product and be willing to communicate to the producer what he wants which is exactly what the OP is doing.

Originally posted by Whitebeards
I want both. i don't want to chose between the two.

 

exactly.  real, proper games.... set in real, proper online open virtual worlds.

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by lizardbones

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There really aren't that many sandbox or 'world' games to choose from. It could be argued that you have Eve, and that's it. What if you want a game with a world, but you don't like Eve? What if the other games that have worlds just suck? Does that mean the OP should suffer through those cr@ppy games to prove a point? It's not relevant whether the OP plays GW2 or not. What's relevant is how well they've argued their point. It's the argument that matters, attacking the person instead of the argument is just bad form. I think they've argued their point poorly. Simply put, a lot of people want games, not worlds. Their use of the term, "We" was poorly chosen. Finally, analogies are just a poor way to get your point across. If your audience doesn't agree with or understand what you're saying without an analogy, using an analogy isn't going to help.  

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I have over 500 hours invested in GW2. How would you feel if i start preachign you all about sad state of themeparks in 2012 and then ask you a question 'why' and 'if we will ever get a world'? i would be such a hypocrite not to realise that i am actually part of the problem i am complaining about.

Ii think answer is obvious because people buy and support such games including OP according to whom GW2 is a shallow themepark MMO with one saving grace that is B2P.

And i fail to see where i attacked OP? telling him to practise what he preaches is an attack? well matter of prespective i guess.

 

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It really depends on how you presented your point of view and what your point of view actually was. It would seem really odd if you said that theme parks are a horrible blight on society, and yet you played 500 hours of GW2. At the same time, it would give you lots of material to make your point.

Now, if your point is that playing theme parks contributes to the very problem you're preaching against, then I'd say you have a schizophrenic point of view. I would ask why you continue to play a game that you see as the source of a problem you're arguing against. I would really wonder about that, but you could still present a really good argument against playing theme park games.

Getting past all that, it's the argument you're making that's relevant. It doesn't matter how I feel and it doesn't matter what you play or don't play. The only important part of the discussion is the topic being discussed. Did you make a good point, in your post in favor of or against your point of view?

I don't think the OP made a very good argument. I think there is a good point in their post about worlds versus games, but they didn't do a very good job presenting it. The biggest issue is the use of the word, "We", since it seems people in general are fine with games and are fine without worlds.

Apologies for using 'attack'. That is a bit too strong a word. You were presenting the idea that the person posting the argument invalidated the argument, without actually invalidating the argument itself. 'Attack' was just the easiest word to use. So again, apologies.

We the consumers are to blame. Players like mmo's like WoW (a game) and companies ran with it. Forever changing the face of world gaming. 

Thank God Sandbox MMO's are making a comback. 

Originally posted by ezduzit

We the consumers are to blame. Players like mmo's like WoW (a game) and companies ran with it. Forever changing the face of world gaming. 

Thank God Sandbox MMO's are making a comback. 

Actually not. Just because I like, and buy, chocolate does not prevent me from liking and wanting to buy liqourice. Like wise just because I like to play single player games and ThemeParks does not prevent me from not liking and wanting sandbox MMOs.

It is not an either or. It is perfectly possible to like several things. It is the responsibility of companies to see if there is a demand and then create a product for that demand. They have to sometimes take a risk and produce something even though they dont have 100% proof that people will buy it in the volumes they expect. If it was that easy then everyone would be creating successful multimillion dollar companies.

Originally posted by Metentso
Remember EQ "You are in our world now". Developers where the Gods in that world. We adapted to what they chosed, not the other way around like today.

Today's way is more fun.

Why would i want to play a game when the devs decide i have to stare at a spellbook for 10 min? I vote with my time & money.