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The Secret World Forum » General Discussion » Taking legal action against The Secret World

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382 posts found
  ConjureOne

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/07
Posts: 205

12/27/12 9:45:15 AM#321

wow filing a law suit because of 200$ (max? and not even DIRECT losses) is wow, WOW, I dunno how to put this xD retarded-stubbornes might be a good description of what this topic is. 

And you dont live in zimbabwe, do you? I think its probably the only country in the world where you can pay the lawyer less tan 1000$ for a case xD

  ConjureOne

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/07
Posts: 205

12/27/12 9:54:59 AM#322
Originally posted by Knytta
Funcom is a Norwegian company that is not answerable to any EU laws, I am pretty sure that their EULA claims that any litigation should be under Norwegian law (where class action lawsuits are almost unheard of). Good luck in finding a Norwegian attorney that wants to take your claim to court.

wow, do you even have any clue what youre talking about ? xD You can get sued in norwegia from crimes in russia etc there are world legislation acts (thats what UN is there for) and many legislation acts are signed by multiple countries, so that crimes commited widely across any number of countries (like in case of MMORPGS) can be judged in any country.

And there is always the factor of CONSUMER <-> DISTRIBUTOR legislation, where the CONSUMER (if not a company, but a person) is always protected by the consumer law and shit like EULA, even if you sign it, can be canceled by appropriate governmental institutions if major misconduct is present.

Son, get a clue -> post.

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

12/28/12 12:47:35 AM#323
Originally posted by Rocketeer
 
They are not dictating anything to you, nothing changed for you if you have a LTA. The only ones affected are NEW players coming to the game now(like me). It isn't any different than buying a new gamerelease now for 60$ and see it in a sale 80% reduced in a year. Only difference is that you actually will get alot more as a LTA account holder(future content is included for you, its not for people who got the B2P deal).
Of course they are dictating terms to you, the business model has changed.  Whether their new model is better, worse or the same is a matter of indifference.  They have dropped the monthly subscription, in doing so they have altered the contract.  At this moment in time any customer that is not happy should be given more than one option.  MMO players can be quite principled in their approaches to games, they may support a subscription but not a buy to play or free to play model.  That is their choice, but they are being given no choice with regards to this change.
 
Tell that to the people who played Hellgate:London, APB, SWG, E&B or CoX. Its better to alienate some people than to alienate EVERYONE by saying "thats it, bye". If TSW had been a huge success things may have been different, but it wasn't and they are not.
 Well if they closed up shop people may be able to seek reimbursment through other methods. I would imagine you alienate people with regards to this and you may stil have a customer in the sense of somebody that has bought the game and given you their money.  But not in any other terms. 
 
I know when Funcom annoyed me I just gave up on 10 months of AOC subscription there was no way I would support that game in any way.  All I am saying is why don't they offer anybody that is unhappy a refund, just to show that as a company they have changed and turned a corner.  From the sounds of it you are looking at a few people. It's never good business to alienate a customer.  There are reasons TSW didn't do well at launch and a hell of a lot of those reasons boil down to how Funcom have treated people in the past. 

 

 

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

12/28/12 1:13:30 AM#324
Originally posted by Abangyarudo
Can you show when this has been done in mmorpgs? 
What does that matter, if something has been done before. 
The ceo wasn't a ceo at the time he made a personal decision. I don't see how this is not giving a crap about your customers. When you're faced with the following benefits: 
A) $10 of funcom points instead of 0 under the old subscription. 

B) Veteran Rewards

C) Enough points to buy dlc packs if it goes over the amount for monthly allowance they get it at the monthly allowance price. 

D)  20% discount from the store. 

Well he stepped down as CEO after seeing the pre-order numbers for TSW, even though he states that isn't true.  The guy is facing insider-trader allegations and legal action. He basically only stepped down so he could sell his shares.  This is the sort of person that was running this company.  That is like 'Red Alert' - something isn't right here.

As for the new offers, like I say giving people a choice seems like a fair request to my mind. If they like the new deal fair enough, if they don't offer them a refund.  But they won't because they want to keep their clammy hands on what they have already got out of people.  Funcom hasn't changed it isn't even in the process of changing.  How many times you have to go through the same lesson to actually learn something I don't know.

 
I believe if they were going to close up shop they would have. Which if you were correct about them not giving a damn would be done hastily to avoid losing money as you say they are. They haven;t which shows a clear desire to  continue the game. All games wish to be profitable so I'm not going to get into the whole is it just for the money thing. People don't work for free. 
 
Why close up shop just prior to Xmas/New Year lots of money about at this time of year.  No they are doing things right, offer buy to play to get some more cash for this game, that they spent millions on.  Then shut up shop probably around March.  Or get bought out and drop the game as part of the restructuring, blaming the new owners.

While you're making a grandstand about it I'm guessing you have a mortgage? Which is designed by nature to cheat you out of a large amount of money by giving you enough money upfront? If not I'm sure you had one at one time. So let’s talk about cheating people out of money in the avenues that matter compared to a mortgage I'm not sure I would sweat $15 a month.  If they repo your house, car whatever is that not by nature cheating the customer? 

You may not be able to alter the workings of some multi-national bank by arguing the toss over bank fees or dodgy investments they make with your money.  But here you are talking about an 'independant' software developer.  The customer has more power than they think.

 

 

 

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/29/12 4:52:59 AM#325
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Rocketeer
 
They are not dictating anything to you, nothing changed for you if you have a LTA. The only ones affected are NEW players coming to the game now(like me). It isn't any different than buying a new gamerelease now for 60$ and see it in a sale 80% reduced in a year. Only difference is that you actually will get alot more as a LTA account holder(future content is included for you, its not for people who got the B2P deal).
Of course they are dictating terms to you, the business model has changed.  Whether their new model is better, worse or the same is a matter of indifference.  They have dropped the monthly subscription, in doing so they have altered the contract.  At this moment in time any customer that is not happy should be given more than one option.  MMO players can be quite principled in their approaches to games, they may support a subscription but not a buy to play or free to play model.  That is their choice, but they are being given no choice with regards to this change.
 
So your saying a company that has any running contract can't change its businessmodel? Thats bollocks. They either honor a contract or they don't, their business model is none of your business. Thats exactly like a phone contract company introducing a prepaid model alongside their monthly plans, or even abondoning their monthly plans entirely in favor of prepaid cards. Aslong as they still provide the agreed upon service to you at the agreed upon price its none of your business. Also they DID NOT drop the monthly subscription, thats simply false.
 
Tell that to the people who played Hellgate:London, APB, SWG, E&B or CoX. Its better to alienate some people than to alienate EVERYONE by saying "thats it, bye". If TSW had been a huge success things may have been different, but it wasn't and they are not.
 Well if they closed up shop people may be able to seek reimbursment through other methods. I would imagine you alienate people with regards to this and you may stil have a customer in the sense of somebody that has bought the game and given you their money.  But not in any other terms. 
 
No, you won't be able to seek reimbursement because nobody closes a buisness down until it is in the reds. If they are in the reds there will be banks, investors and employees that all have a a higher claim than you waiting for their money. Once all of those have been satisfied small claims come into it, which basicly never happens because if at this point the business had any money left they wouldn't have been broke and closed down in the first place.
 
I know when Funcom annoyed me I just gave up on 10 months of AOC subscription there was no way I would support that game in any way.  All I am saying is why don't they offer anybody that is unhappy a refund, just to show that as a company they have changed and turned a corner.  From the sounds of it you are looking at a few people. It's never good business to alienate a customer.  There are reasons TSW didn't do well at launch and a hell of a lot of those reasons boil down to how Funcom have treated people in the past. 
 
Because they don't have the money, quite literally. When you gave them the money for your LTA or sub, they reinvested it into the game, paid employees, paid debts, got new hardware whatever. If they wanted to pay people out they had to SELL stuff, layoff devs or borrrow money. Did you expect they put the money in some savings-account they can just withdraw it from in order to make a nice impression? 

 

 

TSW was(/is?) doing badly financially. They are running on hope and expectations right now, and i certainly believe they can pull things around. But right now, asking them for money is like trying to bleed a stone. And even if the law was on your side(which it isn't btw), that doesn't mean you will get anything if the other side simply can't provide it(talking class action here).

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

12/30/12 6:09:57 AM#326
Originally posted by Rocketeer

So your saying a company that has any running contract can't change its businessmodel? Thats bollocks. They either honor a contract or they don't, their business model is none of your business. Thats exactly like a phone contract company introducing a prepaid model alongside their monthly plans, or even abondoning their monthly plans entirely in favor of prepaid cards. Aslong as they still provide the agreed upon service to you at the agreed upon price its none of your business. Also they DID NOT drop the monthly subscription, thats simply false.
Whenever money changes hands you have a legally binding contract.  The terms of that agreement are made at the start.  Regardless of what crap they put in the contract about being allowed to screw people over, that isn't normally the case.   Consumer protection allows for terms such as 'reasonable use' and 'fit for purpose''.  Anybody could argue that reasonable use of a lifetime subscription is a lot longer than six months.  Again regardless of whether or not what is now being offered is the same, similar or better.

 

People don't just have the right to change a contract because they feel like it, it's the whole point of a contract.  It's a 'two-way' binding agreement.   Sure things can change, but then again there has to be a reasonable amount of notification.  People have to agree to the new contract.

 

As for the monthly subscription that has been dropped, it's no longer a requirement for playing the game.
 
No, you won't be able to seek reimbursement because nobody closes a buisness down until it is in the reds. If they are in the reds there will be banks, investors and employees that all have a a higher claim than you waiting for their money. Once all of those have been satisfied small claims come into it, which basicly never happens because if at this point the business had any money left they wouldn't have been broke and closed down in the first place.
No I was thinking more along the lines of seeking reimbursement from credit card companies, payment protection etc.  Probably easier to do if the company goes under than if it is still around.
 
Because they don't have the money, quite literally. When you gave them the money for your LTA or sub, they reinvested it into the game, paid employees, paid debts, got new hardware whatever. If they wanted to pay people out they had to SELL stuff, layoff devs or borrrow money. Did you expect they put the money in some savings-account they can just withdraw it from in order to make a nice impression? 
 
From the sounds of it here, there are two or three people that are not happy with the new arrangement.  Are you seriously saying that Funcom as a company could not afford to reimburse those people?  From recent pictures of Joel in his doomsday bunker with all that lager, I would say he spent more than that on beer and axes.

TSW was(/is?) doing badly financially. They are running on hope and expectations right now, and i certainly believe they can pull things around. But right now, asking them for money is like trying to bleed a stone. And even if the law was on your side(which it isn't btw), that doesn't mean you will get anything if the other side simply can't provide it(talking class action here).

Funcom is always running on hope and expectations.  Potential is the word I have always used, they show massive potential but never deliver.   But I would question the whole thing, they have publicly stated they are moving out of the MMO business.  All they have in the pipeline is a Lego MMO that looks a bit doomed from the start, if the last Lego MMO is anything to judge it by.   They are looking to move into making games with a quick turnaround.  Though only have a game engine that will work on PC (knowing Funcom I doubt it will even work on next gen consoles).  PC games sales are pitiful to say the least, so that looks promising.
 
So how much actual commitment to this game do you think they have?  Fans love to portray this attitude of a company suffering for it's art.  But these guys are looking towards an MMO'less future. They have called in people to value the company, the stuff with the ex-CEO I don't think is yet resolved, rumors of a takeover abound and their share price is still pitiful.
 
TSW is like the Dukenukem of the MMO world, it had to be released because so much time and money had been spent on it.  Anybody with half a brain could see right from the start that it wasn't going to be a huge commercial success.  This new buy to play model is a cash grab to my mind.  I would have had more faith in Funcom as a company if they had gone free to play.  Even now they could change my opinion of them by offering any unhappy customer a refund.  But I know the money is the important thing here not the customer, always has been and always will be.  After all Joel needs to buy more lager and axes for his bunker. Probably needs the axes to protect himself against unhappy Funcom customers.

 

  tersagun

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/09
Posts: 11

12/30/12 6:22:35 AM#327

Comparing TSW switch and Steam sales.. I would definetely prefer the TSW model.

Subscriber do not lose anything but gain an ADVANTAGE over the "newcomers/unsubscribers". This is a fact.

On the other hand, which happens all the time, you buy/pre-order a game at launch at full price, which are most of the time buggy release and needs to get fixed after the launch, experience the broken/not polished game for 1-2 months and finally when the game reaches a fair status with the patches, the game goes on sale for 50%.

Which one hurts me more; definetely the huge sales after a very short while over the launch.

  SelfDestructPro

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/08
Posts: 322

12/30/12 6:28:14 AM#328

Yeah dude, AAA game companies especially ones that this isn't their first game, have their bases covered when it comes to something like this.  They have legal "teams".  And unfortunately they probably didn't have much of a choice.  You think they wanted to drop the sub model?  I doubt it.  They'd be giving up guaranteed money.  They obviously weren't doing well enough.  So good luck with that anyway, I know I'd be a bit pissed too if I bought the game, but this is what happens when you jump on the bandwagon too early.

And not to mention that the amount of money that it would cost to pay anyone for legal coucil let alone represent you in a court of law FAR exceeds the couple of months that you've paid for your sub.  So by all means, pay someone a couple grand so you can get your $164.92 back.

  ashleymorrow

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 176

12/30/12 6:41:32 AM#329
I don't read every thread on mmorpg.com or even every thread for the games I am playing/interested in. But as ignorance seems no barrier to entry I nominate this thread for 'Silliest of 2012'.
  wyldmagik

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 233

12/30/12 6:45:29 AM#330
Originally posted by ashleymorrow
I don't read every thread on mmorpg.com or even every thread for the games I am playing/interested in. But as ignorance seems no barrier to entry I nominate this thread for 'Silliest of 2012'.

Not so much that but also, I see these threads all over the net on gaming forums, and its like they have all been overdosed on watching legal drama shows or something lol. I just LOL and pass the thread but you are right this is so amusing it has to be skipped through for some giggles.

 

  remyburke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 2984

I liked MMOs better when gamers didn't play them, and just geeks did.

12/30/12 7:01:09 AM#331

Man, I wish that a situation like this was a big enough problem in my life to want to take legal action because of it. Like seriously? This is where your priorities are? Wow...

 

Playing: ESO

Played: AC1, AC2, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  AwDiddums

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/12
Posts: 366

12/30/12 7:21:24 AM#332

What makes it even worse is the OP has told only half truths, take this to a court and you'll be wasting your money as Funcom have put in place ways to compensate Lifetime subs that would be deemed by any court as fair restitution.

Making a post here stating your going to court was probably all the action the OP intended, very much like all the WoW kiddies yesterday screaming and shouting how they would demand extra time,refunds and quitting their subs because there was a login issue, now that the game is up there isn't a peep from any of them, they are all now suckling up to their favourite game again, it was a case of drama for drama's sake.

 

 

 

  The_Argo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/12
Posts: 15

12/30/12 8:20:31 AM#333

Any game with a life time sub option is destined to run into trouble. Why? Because a life time sub is only a play to get people to pay AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE before the decay sets in and the problems arise.

 

DC Universe

Star Trek Online

Age of Conan

Champions Online

And many more, ALL had life time subs, ALL dive bombed after a while.

 

[mod edit]

 

 

 

  Scarfe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/12
Posts: 287

12/30/12 8:24:17 AM#334
This thread should have died ages ago.  When you take legal action (unless you have been defamed I guess) you make a commercial decision; will it cost me more in time and money than I can get out of it.  In this case the answer is a huge capitalised yes.  I haven't bothered to make it huge or capitalised cause thats the way my trousers hang.  If you do not make a commercial decision you are the twat taking out a second mortgage to argue for three years over the position of the fence in your backgarden.

currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  banzai014

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/12
Posts: 35

 
OP  1/03/13 11:57:58 PM#335
Originally posted by Abangyarudo
what I find amazing is if I read the op right he is not a lifetime subscriber hes a regular subber that has a few months left. So all this talk about life time subscription is meaningless because the person in question does not have one.

This is correct. And in the end, I did get my $18 back from Funcom, continued access to the game plus sweeteners in the form of 10,000 bonus points and a lifetime subscription to Age of Conan for the inconvenience. So in the end people power does work.

[mod edit] The massive promotion of cash shop costumes on the forums and decrease in game quality and stability (see the "End of Days" event debacle, massive clothing clipping) just show to me that this game is heading irreversibly downhill and is not worth my time. Free hard drive space is worth more. This whole affair has soured my relations with Funcom to the utmost. I am ready to burn every bridge I have with the company and its products.

Meanwhile I am very disappointed by the responses in this thread asking me to just let things be, and take it up the behind. It is good to know that when push comes to shove, people will support the greedy, double-dealing company over the common gamer. My experience could have very much been yours. When your own crisis comes up, I hope you reconsider your stance when your room mates get together with your landlord to have you evicted unjustly, your neighbours side with the city council when your house gets demolished or your fellow workmates conspire with the boss in getting you laid off.   

Why would you want to damage the integrity of your consumer rights?   Why support companies who pull these stunts? It could be your P2P MMO that goes F2P next. I consider you equal to someone saying that War Z adopters should not get their $15 refund back, because people should have known that it was "unfinished" (going to go B2P in TSW's case). I hope you Grandmasters are happy with the 1200 points Funcom has so graciously let you have, rather than protesting on these forums. 

  Marirranya

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 154

1/04/13 12:34:41 AM#336

im glad you got the compensation that you were looking for :3

cheers and goodluck!

There are people who play games and then there are gamers.

http://alzplz.blogspot.com

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1950

1/04/13 2:33:16 AM#337
Originally posted by banzai014

...  and a lifetime subscription to Age of Conan for the inconvenience.

Wait a sec... since when they have lta to AoC? I see only a 1year pack on the account page.

I want one too, I will take legal action agai.... just kidding :) But not on the want part, anyone can find a link to a lifetime AoC purchase? It's a new info to me that those subscriptions are even exists.

  synn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/16/03
Posts: 525

1/04/13 2:44:49 AM#338
is any MMO that offered a life time membership going strong? I personally try to avoid any game that offers a life time membership just based on previous games that tried to do the same thing.
  avalon1000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 710

1/04/13 2:54:10 AM#339
Contracts are not written in stone and many lawsuits have been brought about even with contracts (and won);.
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16405

1/04/13 2:57:48 AM#340
Originally posted by Teala
See, it is for this very reason that lifetime subs are worthless.

Agreed, since most P2P games seems to become F2P games fast now it is a gamble at least.

"Worthless" might be a little too much though since you otherwise would have to payed $15 a month until the game goes F2P but it surely aint worth the price they charge for it.

TSW should have released as B2P from the beginning, it would have given FunCom more money and less upset players.

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