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The Secret World Forum » General Discussion » How can lifetimers get back at Funcom?

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192 posts found
  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1148

12/13/12 7:43:04 AM#101
Originally posted by therain93

I don't play TSW, but this is a bit like the City of Heroes Freedom model....and it seems like people don't fully get it, just like when CoH went to that hybrid pay model.

People have already pointed out that benefits of the lifetime sub, most notably the monthly stipend and the discount you get to use in the store -- that alone is makes it a great deal. 

BUT, the other benefit of B2P is that, even with no sub, Funcom has eliminated what might be a huge barrier to entry, especially at gifting times like right now.  How does that beneft lifetime subbers?  Well, the reality is that a lifetime subber is going to likely be there forever and regular subbers will eventually leave, meaning the lifetimers would have a dwindling group of people to play with.  Eliminating the sub eliminates a reason why people will stop playing the game.  Assuming the quality of the game is decent, then lifetimers will likely have a larger pool of people to play with and if they have a larger pool of people to play with, then they'll likely stick around....and buy more cash shop items....  Everyone basically benefits, including those that don't want to make an investment in a subscription.

^ this guy gets it. Also don't forget that TSW doesn'thave the nasty restrictions like most p2p to f2p/b2p mmo's get, look at swtor, and lotro,, eq2 as well, so many restrictions that you really have to sub to make the game worthwhile to play. DDO is another example if you don't sub or shell out a ton of money you losse out on about 90% of the games content. I got my TSw 6 days after release for 20 bucks off its normal price at green man gaming due to a coupon event they had where they gave otu 20 buck off coupons/codes. Only played it for like 8 hours before I quit though game was so ungodly generic and boring. Also if your going to make a game with factions for fraks sake make sure you put in some land control-type pvp and not this arena garbage. What the hell is the point to factions in a mmo if you can't fight eacher in worthwhile area's (like faction wide bonuses for holding so much terrtory like daoc for example). I mean if you aren't going to have the factions fighting each other in a mmo, there really is no point to the factions. its bad enough all 3 factions are shoveled down the same content. But not having some worthwhile pvpve type land control stuff in an area just feels like a kick in the jimmies.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

12/13/12 7:44:52 AM#102

Y'all agreed to EULA, when you signed into the game. This is basically saying that you agree to what ever the company does. You don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Learn from your mistakes and move on.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  3-4thElf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 490

12/13/12 7:47:43 AM#103
Originally posted by banzai014

 

So how can lifetimers protest? We have to do it through word of mouth. It's our duty to warn players from this game. We must warn our friends, our family, warn people in the forums we frequent. Let our cautionary tale make it known that only fools part money with Funcom.

---------------------------

UPDATE:  I have contacted Massively and MMORPG.com awaiting reply suggesting they write an article investigating the legal implications of TSW's B2P change or otherwise recommend me a lawyer specializing in this area that I could talk to. I hope this way we the community can get something started moving forward and clarify exactly  what legal recourse existing subscribers have. I only ask that players get the option of having their extant subscription time refunded, since the subscription service has so wholly changed from what they originally intended to pay for (i.e. it has lost a lot of its value, which is paying for access to the game).

There are no legal implications.

It's like trying to sue Target for offering a coupon on a product you bought a month prior.

The market value of products change over time.

Get a life.

a yo ho ho

  taziar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/11
Posts: 54

12/13/12 8:00:52 AM#104

 "How can lifetimers get back at Funcom?"  I suspect the OP must be a child, a selfish, clueless one at that.  

 

Funcom created a good game that they hoped would be popular.  Sadly, for whatever reason, the market didn't respond.  They didn't WANT to go to F2P, they HAD to.  Don't blame Funcom, blame your fellow gamers for not supporting the game.  Would you rather they watch their subscriber base dwindle for a few months and then simply shutdown the game when they start losing money?  

 

The MMO market is fickle.  You can't buy a lifetime sub for a brand new game and not assume some risk.  That would be like buying a lifetime subscription to a not-yet-aired SciFi TV show and then being outraged when it gets cancled 1/2 way through the 1st season because nobody is watching it.  Funcom chose to go the route of Chuck (blatent Subway product but it kept the show alive) instead of the Firefly route (Simply killing a wonderful show.  Twice.). 

 

Get over yourself.  Funcom didn't go F2P simply to screw you over, they want to save their game, and their business.  As much as I hate F2P, I support their decision.  The Secret World is a great game, and F2P will help them share their game with more people.  

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1148

12/13/12 8:12:41 AM#105
Originally posted by taziar

 "How can lifetimers get back at Funcom?"  I suspect the OP must be a child, a selfish, clueless one at that.  

 

Funcom created a good game that they hoped would be popular.  Sadly, for whatever reason, the market didn't respond.  They didn't WANT to go to F2P, they HAD to.  Don't blame Funcom, blame your fellow gamers for not supporting the game.  Would you rather they watch their subscriber base dwindle for a few months and then simply shutdown the game when they start losing money?  

 

The MMO market is fickle.  You can't buy a lifetime sub for a brand new game and not assume some risk.  That would be like buying a lifetime subscription to a not-yet-aired SciFi TV show and then being outraged when it gets cancled 1/2 way through the 1st season because nobody is watching it.  Funcom chose to go the route of Chuck (blatent Subway product but it kept the show alive) instead of the Firefly route (Simply killing a wonderful show.  Twice.). 

 

Get over yourself.  Funcom didn't go F2P simply to screw you over, they want to save their game, and their business.  As much as I hate F2P, I support their decision.  The Secret World is a great game, and F2P will help them share their game with more people.  

It wasn't popular because it is bascally just the newest wow-clone themepark that everyone has played, same issue happened with swtor, fallen earth, and various other mmos that went f2p to survive. Its not that they want to, but themepark mmo's do not hold the general gamers interest for long. TBH I doubt wow really has the subs it does, I bet those are how many accounts there are but i bet maybe 30% are actually subbed, but even that 30% is still a fairly large number. Themepark mmo's are going under because everyone has played wow for themost part, and when they get into another mmo and its bascally the same game copy and pasted with a new skin they just lose interest fast since its the same shit in a diffrent wrapper. I am honestly surprized rift is surviving as p2p, considering its one of the more generic wow clones.

 

Now u may say "Well what about darkfall unhoyl wars, its not a themepark" DW:UW will fail because it won't attrach anyone but greifers for the most part, if they would make a server that has the lootable player corpses removed, I bet you that server would always be full while the more hardcore server will be empty, sadly the games fans are too stupid to relize that the game is just going to die again due to lack of interest due to mainly the lootable player corpses mechanic.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

12/13/12 8:25:46 AM#106

There is nothing you can do apart from vent your spleen. But you won't get very far on the official forums before you are banned, permanently. You start looking at their actual business setup and you will only have consumer rights if you a resident of Norway.   Though I personally think people have a case, at this point in time Funcom should offer to refund lifetime subs.   Because in essence lifetime to most people does not mean a few months.  Even legally I would think there is some sort of case unless lifetime was specifically defined as a period of x number of months. 

 

Whatever happens they should give their customers options and not just dictate policy to them.  But Funcom are anything but customer focussed.     They will do what is best for them and not the customer.   Which is why they end up with a lot of disgruntled customers who once they get duped by Funcom do tend to hold a significant grudge (points to himself).  The strength of any business is in how they treat their customers, especially how they treat unhappy customers.  At this moment in time they should bend over backwards to make sure lifetime subs are happy and if there are still people unhappy they should do the right thing.

 
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10572

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/13/12 8:30:40 AM#107


Originally posted by fallenlords
There is nothing you can do apart from vent your spleen. But you won't get very far on the official forums before you are banned, permanently. You start looking at their actual business setup and you will only have consumer rights if you a resident of Norway.   Though I personally think people have a case, at this point in time Funcom should offer to refund lifetime subs.   Because in essence lifetime to most people does not mean a few months.  Even legally I would think there is some sort of case unless lifetime was specifically defined as a period of x number of months.    Whatever happens they should give their customers options and not just dictate policy to them.  But Funcom are anything but customer focussed.     They will do what is best for them and not the customer.   Which is why they end up with a lot of disgruntled customers who once they get duped by Funcom do tend to hold a significant grudge (points to himself).  The strength of any business is in how they treat their customers, especially how they treat unhappy customers.  At this moment in time they should bend over backwards to make sure lifetime subs are happy and if there are still people unhappy they should do the right thing.  


How is the in game experience for lifetime subscribers different now? What did Funcom take away from the lifetime subscribers?

Actually, I can answer that. Lifetime subscribers are getting everything that paid for, in addition to $10 worth of virtual currency, which buys them more than $10 worth of stuff in the cash shop because they get a discount.

Lifetime subscribers do not have a case in Norway or anywhere else.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7148

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

12/13/12 8:40:40 AM#108
Originally posted by banzai014

I have contacted Massively and MMORPG.com awaiting reply suggesting they write an article investigating the legal implications of TSW's B2P change ...

 

You want actual real investigative journalism from a gaming site that serves and supports the player base over the (potentiol) advertiser?

It's not really why they exist tbh.

 

  taziar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/11
Posts: 54

12/13/12 8:42:17 AM#109

"It wasn't popular because it is bascally just the newest wow-clone themepark that everyone has played, same issue happened with swtor, fallen earth, and various other mmos that went f2p to survive."

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.  Have you even played Fallen Earth?  It is about as far from WOW as you can get.  The Secret World is also quite different than WOW, which is WHY it isn't doing well, it is considered niche, just as games like EVE are. 

"I am honestly surprized rift is surviving as p2p, considering its one of the more generic wow clones."  Again, that is why it IS doing well.     It took something that worked well, and improved upon it.  Also, it doesn't have kung-fu pandas.  

 

Name one MMO that you don't consider a 'themepark' WoW clone with over 1 mil subscribers.  Or even 500k.  Eve has 350k and I guarantee many of them are people with multiple accounts, as the skill system design strongly encourages that far more than other games, where ALTS suffice.

 

 

  Traugar

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 168

12/13/12 8:47:18 AM#110

OP why do you want to get back at Funcom?  Obviously something about the game interested you or you wouldn't have bought a lifetime sub to begin with.  And obviously you like the game, or else you wouldn't still be playing it.  This is a way for them to continue to pay for a game that you like, and give you people to play with.  The alternative could mean a game that you like being taken offline. So why are you complaining?  They give you all kinds of benefits, and still you complain.  They do so in an attempt to get more people into a game that you like, and still you complain.  I really don't understand your attitude. 

  Terranah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3616

12/13/12 8:55:39 AM#111

There's always the risk it will go free to play.  That's why I don't do the Lifetime thing anymore.  I tried it with Star Trek Online and was disappointed.  Never again.

 

Hiring a lawyer is probably pointless but if you want to take one for the team and gamers everywhere go for it.  I hired a lawyer once for something else and it cost 3 grand.  This was 20 years ago, not sure what the going rate is now, but if it was comparable, 3 grand>200.  I'd say cut your losses, you learned a good lesson and it only cost a couple hundred bucks.

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

12/13/12 9:27:13 AM#112
Originally posted by lizardbones

How is the in game experience for lifetime subscribers different now? What did Funcom take away from the lifetime subscribers?

Actually, I can answer that. Lifetime subscribers are getting everything that paid for, in addition to $10 worth of virtual currency, which buys them more than $10 worth of stuff in the cash shop because they get a discount.

Lifetime subscribers do not have a case in Norway or anywhere else.

 

Basically if money has changed hands you have a contract and they are changing the terms of that contract.   So anybody may have a case, it depends on the fine print of any agreement made.   But regardless I would imagine anybody can argue that a lifetime of any product is longer than a few months.  As such if they want a refund they should be entitled.  Regardless of whether the new deal is comparable or even better, the contract terms have changed.  If you took that to British Trading Standards I think you would have a case.   If not a full refund then at least a partial refund.  I would even argue that with free to play functionality pre-built into the product by design.  This was a half expected occurrence and as such lifetime subscriptions were mis-sold right from the start.

 

 

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

12/13/12 9:30:35 AM#113
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Play the game free forever. It costs them money.

 This. ^

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7148

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

12/13/12 9:31:35 AM#114
Originally posted by Traugar

OP why do you want to get back at Funcom?  Obviously something about the game interested you or you wouldn't have bought a lifetime sub to begin with.  And obviously you like the game, or else you wouldn't still be playing it.  This is a way for them to continue to pay for a game that you like, and give you people to play with.  The alternative could mean a game that you like being taken offline. So why are you complaining?  They give you all kinds of benefits, and still you complain.  They do so in an attempt to get more people into a game that you like, and still you complain.  I really don't understand your attitude. 

 

Maybe he just dosen't like being lied to... I'm not sure.

  Tsumoro

Elite Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 310

12/13/12 9:34:01 AM#115

This topic is so inane that for a moment I wasn't sure whether this was a trolling thread. I have read through and it seems a minor part of community that play the game are upset about the payment model changing. Why? I assume that when they bought a life time subscription is so they could keep playing the game for 'life'.

So, if the payment plan changes to ensure that the game has a healthy 'life' then do they not benefit from this payment model change? Would their arguement still be the same if the game company went bankrupt and had to close all it's servers? No, very much doubtful.

Myself personally I love TSW, but, there simply wasn't enough content in the game to keep me warranting a subscription. Sad, but true because I really did feel like I had found a new MMO home. TSW to me has a lack of a grind and what I mean by that is that there is no 'grinding system' like reputations, crafting (although a gear grind is present) so, it wasn't a very good 'time sink' of things to do. you have a very focused route, path you have to follow to progress through the game, which I don't mind at all it's just for a gamer like myself who can invest a lot of time into playing games I got through the content rather quickly, perhaps a month before the halloween event came out.

to me, TSW is more a casual social game, which benefits more with people logging in and off quite often to catch up, or to invest a little bit of time into something. It is not really suited for people who want to stay in the game world for 12 hours each and every day, which is how games like WoW or RIFT are.

This payment plan to me is fantastic, because not only do I now get to play the game I really enjoyed as a casual but the money I saved I can buy some of the nice cosmetic items to show my support. In reality, if I could afford it I would buy a life time sub personally just so I can just get the benefits and not have to worry about the DLC's planned.

I am not rich enough to do that, but I do like worthy content to extend my enjoyment of a game. For one, I really like Borderlands and their content DLC's are great in increasing the games enjoyment and length. Now that TSW is going down the same route it means I canjust keep paying whenever I like, to continue my enjoyment. I don't feel commited, or trapped by a subscription constraint.

Now, the reaosn I bring all that up for is that because of this payment plan, myself and 6 of my friends have returned to the game, all potential paying customers from the item shop including the DLC that comes out. I imagine there are many many more like minded individuals who feel the same way and thus we are bumping up the servers population once again which means if you as a lifer were once stuck getting a nightmare group from Agatha, well guess what! Some old blood is returning to group with you.

Lifers benefit the most from this, but they are being a bit too inward thinking. The facts have all been presented before hand which I will go over a couple now.

* you paid for a life time sub, you have it. But you feel cheated because you only got 7 months of gameplay. Now for me a life time sub costs 159.99GBP which I will just round up the penny to 160.00. Now considering the sub model is 15 quid a month, 7 months would of cost me £105.00 so effectively I would be down £54.99.

*So now you are £54.99 down and you 'feel' like you have had that money stolen because you didn't get the game time to warrant that sub. Well guess what... you are wrong. You've lost nothing, the game hasn't closed, the servers are still up and about.

* Now for the DLC, it has been noted that the funcom points you get will be enough to pay for all upcoming DLC packs, including some buying power left at the end of it. Now lets assume that each pack costs £10.00. As a buy to play member, such as myself for a further 12 months of play (with the intention of playing 12 months or longer) based on a characteristic monthly DLC update I would be spending £120.00. You on the other hand would not be spending a single penny.

* So as you can see, you get to play the game for LIFE and not spend another dime, whereas buy to play members WILL have to pay to progress in the games content. It is a pay as you go sub based model and one that I welcome as will many other people.

* But guess what lifers! thats not all! NOT only do you get to continue playing the game for free, you get another slice of pie for not spending anything in the item shop if you hoard your points. you will be able to get everything your little hearts desire and more (with the other benefits, XP bonus etc) without spending anything futher.

*Allow me to put this into focus for you, as a Lifer previously you got your free play time but for additionals from the item shop you still had to pay. So, lets say you forked out the 160 quid on the lifer but over 12 months there were 5 costumes you really liked. Getting the funcom points you needed for them required an additional investment of £40.00 meaning you've now spent £200.00! Cor! Blimey!

* But NOW you don't have to lift a finger or spend on anything elseyour 160.00 has produced you a MASSIVE saving on a game you have already stated you intend to play for 'life'. But not only that! Considering the game lets you keep the points at 6 months at a time, you can stockpile them and buy all the DLC in bargain packs after they have been released saving you EVEN MORE money!

Jesus Saint Mary Christ, you have just literally had your cake and eaten it and you didn't have to use your own hands, you had it catapulted into your face for your enjoyment.

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

12/13/12 9:35:11 AM#116
Sorry, but that's the risk you took for buying a lifetime sub . You could have simply looked at the companies history with MMOs or even the history of MMos that do lifetime subs to see how this game would likely play out. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  dancingstar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/19/11
Posts: 277

12/13/12 9:40:18 AM#117
Originally posted by therain93

I don't play TSW, but this is a bit like the City of Heroes Freedom model....and it seems like people don't fully get it, just like when CoH went to that hybrid pay model.

People have already pointed out that benefits of the lifetime sub, most notably the monthly stipend and the discount you get to use in the store -- that alone is makes it a great deal. 

BUT, the other benefit of B2P is that, even with no sub, Funcom has eliminated what might be a huge barrier to entry, especially at gifting times like right now.  How does that beneft lifetime subbers?  Well, the reality is that a lifetime subber is going to likely be there forever and regular subbers will eventually leave, meaning the lifetimers would have a dwindling group of people to play with.  Eliminating the sub eliminates a reason why people will stop playing the game.  Assuming the quality of the game is decent, then lifetimers will likely have a larger pool of people to play with and if they have a larger pool of people to play with, then they'll likely stick around....and buy more cash shop items....  Everyone basically benefits, including those that don't want to make an investment in a subscription.

I didn't play CoH past the starting zones (after F2P), but as far as I can tell -- no. Specifically I logged out and uninstalled after having the cash shop pretty much thrown in my face at the end of the tutorial instance. But in that game I recall a large number of character creation options, both in terms of appearance and archetypes / powers being locked behind cash shop unlocks or quasi-subs. Perhaps someone can correct me on this.

Your other points I largely agree with. I am saddened that this game has not managed to sell enough copies & retain enough players to continue on the original model, but I am not raging against FC (if it ends up like LOTRO another six months down the line I may well change my position, of course . . .) or making comical threats of legal action.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10572

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/13/12 9:41:11 AM#118


Originally posted by fallenlords

Originally posted by lizardbones How is the in game experience for lifetime subscribers different now? What did Funcom take away from the lifetime subscribers? Actually, I can answer that. Lifetime subscribers are getting everything that paid for, in addition to $10 worth of virtual currency, which buys them more than $10 worth of stuff in the cash shop because they get a discount. Lifetime subscribers do not have a case in Norway or anywhere else.  
Basically if money has changed hands you have a contract and they are changing the terms of that contract.   So anybody may have a case, it depends on the fine print of any agreement made.   But regardless I would imagine anybody can argue that a lifetime of any product is longer than a few months.  As such if they want a refund they should be entitled.  Regardless of whether the new deal is comparable or even better, the contract terms have changed.  If you took that to British Trading Standards I think you would have a case.   If not a full refund then at least a partial refund.  I would even argue that with free to play functionality pre-built into the product by design.  This was a half expected occurrence and as such lifetime subscriptions were mis-sold right from the start.

 

 




What is the material change that happened to the Lifetime Subscribers? What do the Lifetime Subscribers not have now, that they had before?

There is no case here.

Unless of course you want to get into little known legal things that nobody here is qualified to discuss. Oh, and said legal things that would cost any lifetime subscriber far more money than they would get back from Funcom.

** edit **
I haven't seen anyone answer the question yet. What actually changed for the Lifetime Subscribers?

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

12/13/12 9:44:30 AM#119
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by lizardbones

How is the in game experience for lifetime subscribers different now? What did Funcom take away from the lifetime subscribers?

Actually, I can answer that. Lifetime subscribers are getting everything that paid for, in addition to $10 worth of virtual currency, which buys them more than $10 worth of stuff in the cash shop because they get a discount.

Lifetime subscribers do not have a case in Norway or anywhere else.

 

Basically if money has changed hands you have a contract and they are changing the terms of that contract.   So anybody may have a case, it depends on the fine print of any agreement made.   But regardless I would imagine anybody can argue that a lifetime of any product is longer than a few months.  As such if they want a refund they should be entitled.  Regardless of whether the new deal is comparable or even better, the contract terms have changed.  If you took that to British Trading Standards I think you would have a case.   If not a full refund then at least a partial refund.  I would even argue that with free to play functionality pre-built into the product by design.  This was a half expected occurrence and as such lifetime subscriptions were mis-sold right from the start.

 

 

Sorry - they agreed to a contract and that is the EULA. THe EULA states they can change, at any time under their discretion, the business model for the game. No leg to stand on.

 

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Dren_Utogi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1468

12/13/12 9:45:53 AM#120
the only way is to stop buying their products. As consumers that is your right to weed out the products that over decades have not been up to the standards of the industry.

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

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