Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

The more people try to diss this game, the more it makes me find out about it, and the more I find out, the more I like it 

 

Thanks OP, for attracting my attention to TSW once again !

What parts did you like because I looked into TSW and couldn't find anything redeeming about the game.

If you "looked into" TSW and couldn't find anything that you liked, then there's no point in further discussion.

 

Clearly, you don't like the things that I like. We have different tastes, that's all. 

There are things in TSW to like, however I think most people agree combat is one of the weakest aspects of this game.  It is also what you will spend 99.9% of your time doing in game.  It doesn't matter how cool the ability wheel or quests are if they make up so little a portion of the game.

The funny thing is you don't have to judge TSW against GW2 or Tera to see it has issues.  Judge the combat against AOC and it's hard not to see how it's a step backwards in how fluid it all feels.

That just further illustrates my point.

To me, the combat is adequate. It's not the reason why I like the game or find the game interesting, and its "shortcomings" are not significant enough to spoil the game for me.

My point is the weakest part of TSW is also the part that you spend the most time doing.  If combat was a quarter or even half of what you did in game I could excuse it but it's not.  It's what you spend the vast majority of the game doing.  Their are no tools to allow a player to resolve quests using anything but combat.  Even the way zones are laid out leads to a large number of cases where quest objectives are at the back of dead end areas with mobs setup to make getting to it without fighting impossible.

Really?  I didn't see any SWTOR style walled in gauntlets in the beta zone?  It was a fairly open zone.

The combat is not sooo bad that every second you engage in it you are miserable, damn people.  It just seemed a bit lackluster, not pain inducing.

 

Edit:  Also would people please quit calling this combat "slow paced".  It's quite fast paced but it takes 50 hits to kill something, which I admit is too much and they may want to look at.  I also will take the move while I use all abilities over a feeling of impact created by animiation lock any day.  You all can have you self root animation lock crap, I'll take movement at the expense of less than stellar impact feeling.   

Just wait and see ;) not sure why gw2 fanbois have the need to post this stuff but whatever.
And btw pvp actually has meaning in tsw ;)

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cukimunga

...and I hear dodge will be in the game as well.

 Well...that is a definite. If you look at the Hell video on mmorpg.com you can see it being used by the player. Was actually surprised it wasn't commented on to be honest in the article.

All well and good but burying it deep in a melee abilty wheel doesn't really make it something the devs can design fights around does it?  Sure there might be a few end game boss fights that require it's use but beyond that it's a fluff ability.

Originally posted by Nethriil
Just wait and see ;) not sure why gw2 fanbois have the need to post this stuff but whatever.
And btw pvp actually has meaning in tsw ;)

You and some others aren't really adding anything to the conversation by reducing it to "Guild Wars fanboys 2 versus The Secret World fanboys" when some of us are just trying to make comparisons between games, and isolate TSW's pros / cons (moreso cons, I suppose).    

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by cukimunga

...and I hear dodge will be in the game as well.

 Well...that is a definite. If you look at the Hell video on mmorpg.com you can see it being used by the player. Was actually surprised it wasn't commented on to be honest in the article.

All well and good but burying it deep in a melee abilty wheel doesn't really make it something the devs can design fights around does it?  Sure there might be a few end game boss fights that require it's use but beyond that it's a fluff ability.

Just wait till the next open beta event, and build your impressions from that. There's little use to debating it when only half the info is out there. This also in a way applies to the OP. More of a 'we'll see at the next open beta' case.

After having watched vids from the latest betaround of TSW, and now watching the GW2 video, I have to say GW2-animations and general graphics looks quite poor compared to TSW. GW2 does definitely not deserve the attention it has gotten, and TSW deserves alot more attention.

 

Just my opinion, sorry to all GW2-fanboys

Originally posted by vaeiou

Video (TotalBiscuit)

 

Compared to Guild Wars 2 combat, I can only say that the combat in TSW leaves much to be desired.  For example, take a look at this footage of a hammer warrior.  If you look at it objectively and disregard the music and PvP scenario, you can tell that:  not only are the animations better in Guild Wars 2, but the sounds and effects deliver impact whereas TSW is sorely lacking in these departments.  

 

What are your thoughts?

Let me start by saying I think both of these games are let downs, but that said...I'd say hands down TSW looked better than GW2 in that video...really shocks me that anyone would think otherwise.

Originally posted by Soandsoso

Character progression

Experience a game with no classes or levels. Just total freedom of play.

Be whoever you want to be and play however you want to play. The Secret World is completely without classes and levels, allowing you to progress freely.

This simply is not true.

Levels are attached to items in the game that have a tier ranking. The tiers have additional stats on them the higher the level. In order to equip higher tier items you have to unlock those abilities by putting skill points into them. Items are divided into tanking, healing or dps. In essence, they have simply transferred "level stats" to equipped items (weapons, headpiece, necklace, bracers), as well as loosely defined your class by the type of items you equip.

I suppose hypothetically you could mix tanking, dps and healing gear, though I'm not sure how effective this would be.

And if you notice, as you play the game, you move from areas that drop tier 1 items into harder areas that drop tier 2 items and so on. It's not a linear path, it's more like level areas.

If you try and do tier 3 areas equipped with only tier 1 items you most likely won't survive. You can not simply go anywhere you want. Try leaving Kingsmouth and heading straight for the Blue Mountain area and see how long you survive.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Levels are attached to items in the game that have a tier ranking. The tiers have additional stats on them the higher the level.

Kind of true.  There's not additional stats really, but better stats and glyph options.  This is to gate power in progression (as traditional leveling does) and to give crafting more value.

In order to equip higher tier items you have to unlock those abilities by putting skill points into them. Items are divided into tanking, healing or dps.

Kind of true.  To equip Talismans and Weapons you need to spend points to equip more powerful gear and weapons.  Weapons are divided into Tanking, Healing, and Support.  ALL weapons DPS.  That's an important distinction because it factors in greatly with any build you make and the purpose it's designed for.

In essence, they have simply transferred "level stats" to items, as well as loosely defined your class by the type of items you equip.

Here's where you lost me.  Not close to being true at all.  Over-simplification at best.  The real effectiveness comes from your abilities.  These abilities determine a class if you want to call it that for that moment.  Now imagine yourself at end game with more than one class option available and all the class options available if you wish to work for it (through PvP, End Game Dungeons, Lairs/World Bosses, etc, or go back to an earlier area and start with weapons you didn't focus on yet.)  The important thing is that TSW does not limit you to a set of abilities you can use in the game.  You can change, hybrid or create a completely new role by unlocking other abilities from other weapons.  Remember that you can equip any passive you have unlocked regardless of current weapons you have equiped for further customization.  TSW progression system has almost nothing in common with the normal MMO level progression system of gaining set abilities at certain level unlocks and being defined into a certain role for the entirity of that character with only a little variation.

I suppose hypothetically you could mix tanking, dps and healing gear, though I'm not sure how effective this would be.

You don't mix.  You set a different build.  You can save 7 different builds that have different weapons, talismans and abilities.  The more amazing thing is that there will probably be a point where you might want that many different builds to tackle certain kinds of content.  Thanks to TSWs state mechanics.

And if you notice, as you play the game, you move from areas that drop tier 1 items into harder areas that drop tier 2 items and so on. It's not a linear path, it's more like level areas.

This is pretty true as far as ranked items go.

If you try and do tier 3 areas equipped with only tier 1 items you most likely won't survive. You can not simply go anywhere you want. Try leaving Kingsmouth and heading straight for the Blue Mountain area and see how long you survive.

For soloing this is absolutely true.  Plenty could try to group up and do the content that they normally couldn't do solo.  There is of course most probably a limit to how far your group could go admitedly.  The lack of abilities unlocked would become a problem too.

I've made notes of comments above.  I think you have some valid points in a sense when it comes to TSW.  The game does have progression.  The first part of it is the most noticeable in power gain.  However, I think you are confusing the term of lack of levels with the idea of progression.  Levels bring about a whole new idea of what is acceptable and doable in terms of content and measurable success for the individual. 

The reason for the ranked weapons and talismans is to gate power at early on in gameplay to keep content from being trivialized.  When it was announced that ranking was being put in place the devs used the example of someone from Transylvania going to Kingsmouth and giving a new player a way more powerful weapon than intended for them to have at that level.  Such disparity broke the challenge and a system had to be put into place for balance.  That being said there is content later in the game that requires you to have abilities that create states to overcome certain content.  These abilities outweigh greatly the Rank of whatever weapon you have, when it comes to success vs. failiure. 

So TSW does not have levels, but it does have progression.  To say that the existence of ranks in weapons is proof of levels is just silly, considering that there's only 10 of them for each weapon.  That would mean TSW would only have 10 levels.  Obviously, the system is not so simple and it's just wrong to look at that and pretend that is.

 

Originally posted by jdnyc

So TSW does not have levels, but it does have progression.  To say that the existence of ranks in weapons is proof of levels is just silly, considering that there's only 10 of them for each weapon.  That would mean TSW would only have 10 levels.  Obviously, the system is not so simple and it's just wrong to look at that and pretend that is.

 

You have some fair points, and yes indeed, I oversimplified things because I had no real interest in creating a post as detailed as yours, though kudos for being so clear and specific.

You could say that there is gear progression rather than levels but functionally they serve the same purpose. To be successful in certain areas, unless you are grouped for content, you need to have unlocked certain item tier levels and most likely certain tier abilities, just as you need to be a certain level to do content in other games.

In other words, gear progression functions in much the same way as level progression.

There are no classes in the sense that one player can be anything, and have gear sets for it all, but in terms of class roles (for example, in a 5 man) you spec as a melee or ranged dps (or hybrid) as a healer, or as a tank, with the appropriate gear. Now of course, you may be rolling MDPS and realize that a fight requires ranged, so you swap things around. Or a healer may drop group so you swap to that role.

I suspect that shortly after release there will be "ideal" tanking specs and dps and healing specs like the clever folks at elitistjerks seem to enjoy figuring out. And they already have deck templates in the game. People that truly like tinkering with builds will no doubt find a lot of complexity in this system.

Now again, we can interpret the same information differently and that's fine. To me, the idea of one toon being anything actually means that the replability of the game is greatly decresed, since a lot of people roll alts in MMOs, but instead, you have one toon for it all. There's not even a reason to roll another faction since they are flavoring and apparently have no real impact on the game. And once you've done an investigation quest I suspect that it's nowhere near as interesting the second time around, so I have some questions regarding the longevity of content.

None of this is to say the game isn't worth playing or that it won't enjoy some success. I see story and environment as being quite strong, combat to be quite weak in its current form, but we'll see what they do over the next several weeks.

Originally posted by vaeiou

Video (TotalBiscuit)

 

Compared to Guild Wars 2 combat, I can only say that the combat in TSW leaves much to be desired.  For example, take a look at this footage of a hammer warrior.  If you look at it objectively and disregard the music and PvP scenario, you can tell that:  not only are the animations better in Guild Wars 2, but the sounds and effects deliver impact whereas TSW is sorely lacking in these departments.  

 

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that animation and sound only account for about 20% of the enjoyment from combat.  Using my brain (and not mashing keys as quickly as possible) is what I enjoy.  The game that offers more strategy in their combat will be the game that I enjoy the most, and "OMG HE IS SWINGING, DODGE" isn't very strategic.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by jdnyc 

You have some fair points, and yes indeed, I oversimplified things because I had no real interest in creating a post as detailed as yours, though kudos for being so clear and specific.

You could say that there is gear progression rather than levels but functionally they serve the same purpose. To be successful in certain areas, unless you are grouped for content, you need to have unlocked certain item tier levels and most likely certain tier abilities, just as you need to be a certain level to do content in other games.

In other words, gear progression functions in much the same way as level progression.

There are no classes in the sense that one player can be anything, and have gear sets for it all, but in terms of class roles (for example, in a 5 man) you spec as a melee or ranged dps (or hybrid) as a healer, or as a tank, with the appropriate gear. Now of course, you may be rolling MDPS and realize that a fight requires ranged, so you swap things around. Or a healer may drop group so you swap to that role.

I suspect that shortly after release there will be "ideal" tanking specs and dps and healing specs like the clever folks at elitistjerks seem to enjoy figuring out. And they already have deck templates in the game. People that truly like tinkering with builds will no doubt find a lot of complexity in this system.

Now again, we can interpret the same information differently and that's fine. To me, the idea of one toon being anything actually means that the replability of the game is greatly decresed, since a lot of people roll alts in MMOs, but instead, you have one toon for it all. There's not even a reason to roll another faction since they are flavoring and apparently have no real impact on the game. And once you've done an investigation quest I suspect that it's nowhere near as interesting the second time around, so I have some questions regarding the longevity of content.

None of this is to say the game isn't worth playing or that it won't enjoy some success. I see story and environment as being quite strong, combat to be quite weak in its current form, but we'll see what they do over the next several weeks.

Absolutely fantastic response.  It's nice to have a civil discussion of disagreement.  I miss that.  

Originally posted by Charlizzard
...

You have some fair points, and yes indeed, I oversimplified things because I had no real interest in creating a post as detailed as yours, though kudos for being so clear and specific.

...

You could say that there is gear progression rather than levels but functionally they serve the same purpose. To be successful in certain areas, unless you are grouped for content, you need to have unlocked certain item tier levels and most likely certain tier abilities, just as you need to be a certain level to do content in other games.

In other words, gear progression functions in much the same way as level progression.

...

The thing with the gear progression is that it stops it's vertical progression in power relatively quickly (QL 10 purple gear) and after that it advances horizontally with more specialized gear to manage the hardest difficulty of the dungeons.

Regarding the abilities, it's a goal of the ability system to keep all the abilities at the same power level. Just like in Diablo 3, they will probably have some abilities that are better than others, but it might be the first ability you get.

What takes time with the ability system is getting the "perfect" build(s), since you probably need actives from two weapons and might need a elite passive from the outer wheel of a third weapon. (Passives aren't connected to weapon choice 95% of the time).

The horizontal progression makes the game functionally different a typical level based system, even if it has a core of vertical progression which as you state matches a level based system.

In other words, about 1/3 of the way to what you would have called "max level" your abilities and skills will be as powerful as a character with all the abilities and skills. The difference is in the flexibility of the character that's maxed out, but he can only bring one build to each fight, so for PvP they should be pretty equal.

I believe I wrote it under the TB's video. GW2 is a game still without release date, but its animations loook ten times better then animations of a game which is supposed to release in one month time.

Like for now except the original setting TSW doesn't impress me at all. The story setting is interesting, but bad script writing, voice acting, one sided, passive cut scenes ( your character doesn't speak AT ALL ), boring skills ( just watch the TB's video ) just put me off.

Animations have improved in cb. Especially how creatures react + sounds. Why would u want your char to talk? Cut scenes would be very long. + u dont Get anything new by doing this.
Skills u see Are basic ones. All mmos start with basic skills that build up the further u Get in the talent tree. Pvp open beta in a couple weeks will difinitly suprise

So how is combat done right and when is your game with combat done right going to launch?

 

I agree it could have been done diffrently, and there is room for improvement...i like the way the combat in the game has a distinct feel to it, gives the game its own flavor.  Certainly doesnt feel like your typical wow-park combat, despite being more like it than not.

Originally posted by Crunchy221

So how is combat done right and when is your game with combat done right going to launch?

 

I agree it could have been done diffrently, and there is room for improvement...i like the way the combat in the game has a distinct feel to it, gives the game its own flavor.  Certainly doesnt feel like your typical wow-park combat, despite being more like it than not.

 

I agree.  I like the combat, and think the skill wheel shows great potential for some interesting tactics and synergies.  It definiltely has a distinctive feel to it.

I like TSW's combat better than GW2's and I've played both.  I'd never have the gall to say ANet did combat wrong, but rather concede that it's not my style.

Originally posted by Blackbrrd

The thing with the gear progression is that it stops it's vertical progression in power relatively quickly (QL 10 purple gear) and after that it advances horizontally with more specialized gear to manage the hardest difficulty of the dungeons.

Regarding the abilities, it's a goal of the ability system to keep all the abilities at the same power level. Just like in Diablo 3, they will probably have some abilities that are better than others, but it might be the first ability you get.

What takes time with the ability system is getting the "perfect" build(s), since you probably need actives from two weapons and might need a elite passive from the outer wheel of a third weapon. (Passives aren't connected to weapon choice 95% of the time).

The horizontal progression makes the game functionally different a typical level based system, even if it has a core of vertical progression which as you state matches a level based system.

In other words, about 1/3 of the way to what you would have called "max level" your abilities and skills will be as powerful as a character with all the abilities and skills. The difference is in the flexibility of the character that's maxed out, but he can only bring one build to each fight, so for PvP they should be pretty equal.

I have noticed that even though I have many tier 3 abilities unlocked in the elemental "tree", there is not necessarily an advantage to them. In fact, as you point out, sometimes using tier 1 abilities have more advantage than supposedly "better" skills depending on what passives you choose.

For people that like to tinker with such things, I suspect that it will be interesting, though I question what is the point of unlocking so many skills when you may find that a percentage of them are not useful (what percentage is unclear). And is there actually enough content to unlock the full wheel or are they depending on repeatable quests and grinding dungeons?

What I do have a problem with in the combat system is that it is resource-based. I know this is a preference, but I hate using builders to stack points. Absolutely hate it. And despite so many talents, it seems that the need to ensure balance has made many of the talents seem rather generic no matter what weapon you initially specilize it. So if you are dps, you end up with one or two builders, a medium power attack, one aoe, one finisher, one snare/root elite and one thing that can apply a condition or a buff. And the variation between all of these things on the trees SEEMS rather minimal (though I do not claim to be an expert on the skill wheel). I am using primarily elemental/shotgun.

In the end I am left with combat that to me feels rather generic with a lot of builder spamming, but maybe that's my problem and not the game's. I played WoW for far too many years and so this combat feels exactly like a throwback to that (TO ME). And as of right now, I don't see an active dodge in the game, maybe this would help, maybe not.

But given the density of mobs throughout the game, I find that combat interferes with what could be a rather enjoyable experience. There are just a TON of trash mobs standing around (with some limited patrolling). Frankly I think this would have made a kickass single-player game if they made combat more rare and more "survival-horror" based but I guess they want the recurring revenue.

Other people will like the combat for what it is, and we have not yet seen the final product, so we'll see what they modify over the next month.

Why mist this be TSW bs GW 2?

The game's are very very different.

I mean it's one thing to compare the two systems and decide which one you like better, but to say that one is wrong and one is right is pretty closed minded.

TSW is a different game for many reasons. There may be some crossover in the audiences, but TSW appeals to people for entirely different reasons than GW 2.


We get it, you love GW 2 combat. That's great. You have a game that provides what you want. For many of us TSW provides things that we want which cant be easily found elsewhere.

Some people (like myself) are so sick of high fantasy that we barely give it a chance. Some people want skill (skills you use not your own player skill) based progression.

Would TSW benefit from gw2 or Tera style combat? Possibly. Im all for action combat, in fact I greatly prefer Fps combat to rpg combat. That doesn't mean that GW or Tera are suddenly able to overcome my dislikes about the game.


I know, it's hard to understand, but TSW really does appeal to a certain audience of players. It may not have the mass market appeal of GW2, but there is an audience for this game.


Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's "wrong." it's not "right" for everyone but this game strikes a chord with many of us for reasons that I don't think some of you will ever understand.


Here's a tip: if this game doesn't have what you want out of an mmo, then don't buy it. Simple as that. You don't have to waste another second thinking about it.

Play what you like and what is appealing to you. That's what those of us who choose (and stay with) TSW will be doing. I can honestly say that there is not another rpg on the market that offers everything TSW does in one package.