SW:TOR didn't fail because it was story oriented. The story thing is, honestly, the only reason anyone looked at it AT ALL considering what it turned out to be. It failed because:

- blatant cloning of WoW made the game feel very stale, weird, and illogical at times (i.e., a lot of WoW stuff didn't really fit well with the SW universe); the best part of the game was space combat, which is kinda ironic;

- game should have aimed at the leveling crowd but tried to half-aim at the raider crowd and in the end got confused as to what it was trying to achieve;

- completely ignored their own beta testers;

- uninspiring environments; bad quest hub design and generally bad zone design; for a game relying on story, i.e., leveling, this is fatal;

- little content. I don't mean endgame content, I couldn't give a shit about your stupid endgame raids and PvP. I mean specifically leveling content. Tiny planets, few planets, few race choices, limited options in terms of side activities. It was tiny to the point of ridiculous even for a new game;

- bad gear management in terms of rewards for dungeons, crafting, etc.;

- bad visual design (especially gear and general character looks, and forcing evreyone to look stupid. Zones could use work, too);

- locked in, claustrophobic zones;

- some really stupid decisions for no reason (instanced planets so people from different factions weren't actually on the same planet when they were on the same planet - so much for world PvP);

- mislead the public on issues of replayability making it sound like each class has its own story, while actually two classes share the starting area, even, and you can't really branch out anywhere. I.e., less replayable than WoW.

There were some other issues that are pretty significant but still not as major as these.

TOR tried to eat its cake and have it, too. TSW may be dangerously leaning in that direction. But don't tell me SW:TOR got killed by story. For the love of God, it was not...

Originally posted by tares

The reason EA/BW said PvP was such a big deal is because that was the entire game for most players

I'd wager most players quit, actually.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/star-wars-the-old-republic/ . Agree swtor is a fail (sarcasm off).

 

Originally posted by Eletheryl

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/star-wars-the-old-republic/ . Agree swtor is a fail (sarcasm off).

 

 You keep posting this drivel everywhere and making a fool of yourself.

It's WORSE for them to have sold that many and have population dropping off a cliff

It shows most who buy the game don't hang around to play.

Even the most ardent TOR defender can't dispute the fact most servers are ghost towns now.

TOR sold millions and lost millions - it hold the title for mmorpg to lose the most subscribers the fastest -

 

Originally posted by Kinchyle

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Kinchyle

Originally posted by Kyleran

No, I'm afraid to buy TSW because it's made by Funcom. 

Definintely holding off until post-launch to see what sort of quality they manage to deliver.

 

Seriously?!?!?

Are you just one of those Funcom haters then? Because they have one of the best track records for MMOs unless you are a hater.

If AoC and AO are "the best track records for MMOs" than you and I have a VERY different definition of the word "best."

I'm sorry...but since I tested AO and it is STILL GOING and AoC is one of the BEST going....what world are you living in?

if a game doesnt have more than a million subs, it's a failure nowadays.  ;)

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWTOR has zero impact on my consideration of TSW.  I wouldn't have bought SWTOR without a free beta and the same goes for TSW.  At this point TSW is off my radar because it's made by Failcom.

yet your "playing"    37 the "game"

 

 

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by tares

The reason EA/BW said PvP was such a big deal is because that was the entire game for most players

I'd wager most players quit, actually.

It has been 6 months so likely, I'm playing Tera and D3 now, the ones who where there played warzones over and over because all raids could be knocked out in a couple hours and hard modes gave lesser gear.   One thing I did notice is that there was low attrition from the hard core players on my SWTOR server that just played a lot but they would warzone 5-10 hours a day.  TSW seems interesting but I doubt it has anything SWTOR doesn't to keep players.

Mexarillia, 400,000 subs to not be a failure and AO and AoC didn't keep a quarter of that a year out, the goal is to make a profit or return on the development investment.  Funcom considered age of conan a failure http://translate.google.cz/translate?u=http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/article2942108.ece&sl=no&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I think TSW will be a good game and Funcom will actually pull off a decent launch. That being said - the style of game it is may not appeal to a large audience.

Originally posted by tares

It has been 6 months so likely, I'm playing Tera and D3 now, the ones who where there played warzones over and over because all raids could be knocked out in a couple hours and hard modes gave lesser gear.

No, my point is, the majority of the playerbase (the casuals) never reached max level. In fact, many probably just dropped the game.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by tares

It has been 6 months so likely, I'm playing Tera and D3 now, the ones who where there played warzones over and over because all raids could be knocked out in a couple hours and hard modes gave lesser gear.

No, my point is, the majority of the playerbase (the casuals) never reached max level. In fact, many probably just dropped the game.

Doubt it SWTOR's leveling was much better than any MMO's leveling so far.  For sure many quit but certainly a smaller percent than any other MMO, most the people who quit from my guild were at level cap.  3-5 days to max level, companions, a solid story less you play jedi consular like I did.  If any game was tailered to casuals from day 1, SWTOR is it.  The forums didn't have anything negative about leveling it was all level cap issues.  It was a good bet any player that hit level cap would quit within 1-2 weeks.

I don't see quiting before cap a negative, in Everquest and Aion many players quit before the cap but both those games had loads of subscribers.

Originally posted by tares

Doubt it SWTOR's leveling was much better than any MMO's leveling so far.  For sure many quit but certainly a smaller percent than any other MMO, most the people who quit from my guild were at level cap.  3-5 days to max level, companions, a solid story less you play jedi consular like I did.  If any game was tailered to casuals from day 1, SWTOR is it.  The forums didn't have anything negative about leveling it was all level cap issues.  It was a good bet any player that hit level cap would quit within 1-2 weeks.

I don't see quiting before cap a negative, in Everquest and Aion many players quit before the cap but both those games had loads of subscribers.

Heh. I feel tempted to repost this post of yours in the SWTOR section of this site or the official forums, to see how much of the (ex) SWTOR playerbase agrees with your 'there were no problems in SWTOR before level cap'

As for EQ and Aion, EQ had a massive level grind, it took easily 1000-1500+ hrs to reach level cap. So yeah, I agree that people often didn't reach level cap before quitting, and since in that time you only had like 3-5 MMO's in total to pick from, people tend to stick longer with the first MMO ever they had played. As for Aion, it had loads of subs in the east, Asia. Western sub numbers dropped rapidly within months. I know that most of the friends and guildies I started playing AIon with quit Aion around L20-35, at that time the repetitive and thus boring level grind became too much for many.

But we'll see.

At least for me (and I guess many others) an important reason to stick to an mmo has a lot to do with community and how much you are part of it once the game starts getting repetitive / there is little new to discover (at some point every MMO does). It might have been the setting, combat, quests, graphics... that made me give a new mmo a try, but if there was no good reason to interact with other players or no content for larger groups I soon lost intrest. Otherwise there are usually better single-player or coop-titles with respect to almost everything else.
Even though I fully support titles to offer much content to solo-players and casual players, there needs to be some element in the game that really connects the players imho. This is something you cannot really pin to a specific game mechanic and we'll see soon enough how TSW works out. If there is a strong story aspect that has more focus on the single player it's nothing I'd worry about, as long as the game doesn't end there. I see a fair amount of potential - the args, pvp seem to provide something for the server community and instances sound challanging enough to make proper group play important (and hence you cannot rush it with random people without any need of communication). I don't think it will be possible to properly make any predictions on that aspect in the beta since most players focus their attention on the features of the game and less on their co-players.

?

"In the shadow of SWTOR"?

 

Which was released int he shadow of RIFT, which was in the shadow of (was it aion?)  ect..

 

 

Originally posted by Kinchyle

Originally posted by Kyleran

No, I'm afraid to buy TSW because it's made by Funcom. 

Definintely holding off until post-launch to see what sort of quality they manage to deliver.

 

Seriously?!?!?

 

Are you just one of those Funcom haters then? Because they have one of the best track records for MMOs unless you are a hater.

 

 

common no one cant deny that make a smile reading this xD

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by tares

Doubt it SWTOR's leveling was much better than any MMO's leveling so far.  For sure many quit but certainly a smaller percent than any other MMO, most the people who quit from my guild were at level cap.  3-5 days to max level, companions, a solid story less you play jedi consular like I did.  If any game was tailered to casuals from day 1, SWTOR is it.  The forums didn't have anything negative about leveling it was all level cap issues.  It was a good bet any player that hit level cap would quit within 1-2 weeks.

I don't see quiting before cap a negative, in Everquest and Aion many players quit before the cap but both those games had loads of subscribers.

Heh. I feel tempted to repost this post of yours in the SWTOR section of this site or the official forums, to see how much of the (ex) SWTOR playerbase agrees with your 'there were no problems in SWTOR before level cap'

As for EQ and Aion, EQ had a massive level grind, it took easily 1000-1500+ hrs to reach level cap. So yeah, I agree that people often didn't reach level cap before quitting, and since in that time you only had like 3-5 MMO's in total to pick from, people tend to stick longer with the first MMO ever they had played. As for Aion, it had loads of subs in the east, Asia. Western sub numbers dropped rapidly within months. I know that most of the friends and guildies I started playing AIon with quit Aion around L20-35, at that time the repetitive and thus boring level grind became too much for many.

But we'll see.

repost it, SWTOR and Aion are still the second and third most played MMOs in the west, well anything outside of asia. By a large margin then it is eve online which claimed 400,000 subs this year.  Earlier today my brother mentioned Heros of Newerth but I'm not sure what type of game it is, it's around Eve pop wise.

TSW hopes to out perform Eve for an entire year, no easy feat so they better have a solid game and something enticing players to stay above and beyond what SWTOR has as they wont start with 2 million + box sales.

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by tares

Doubt it SWTOR's leveling was much better than any MMO's leveling so far.  For sure many quit but certainly a smaller percent than any other MMO, most the people who quit from my guild were at level cap.  3-5 days to max level, companions, a solid story less you play jedi consular like I did.  If any game was tailered to casuals from day 1, SWTOR is it.  The forums didn't have anything negative about leveling it was all level cap issues.  It was a good bet any player that hit level cap would quit within 1-2 weeks.

I don't see quiting before cap a negative, in Everquest and Aion many players quit before the cap but both those games had loads of subscribers.

Heh. I feel tempted to repost this post of yours in the SWTOR section of this site or the official forums, to see how much of the (ex) SWTOR playerbase agrees with your 'there were no problems in SWTOR before level cap'

As for EQ and Aion, EQ had a massive level grind, it took easily 1000-1500+ hrs to reach level cap. So yeah, I agree that people often didn't reach level cap before quitting, and since in that time you only had like 3-5 MMO's in total to pick from, people tend to stick longer with the first MMO ever they had played. As for Aion, it had loads of subs in the east, Asia. Western sub numbers dropped rapidly within months. I know that most of the friends and guildies I started playing AIon with quit Aion around L20-35, at that time the repetitive and thus boring level grind became too much for many.

But we'll see.

repost it, SWTOR and Aion are still the second and third most played MMOs in the west, well anything outside of asia. By a large margin then it is eve online which claimed 400,000 subs this year.  Earlier today my brother mentioned Heros of Newerth but I'm not sure what type of game it is, it's around Eve pop wise.

TSW hopes to out perform Eve for an entire year, no easy feat so they better have a solid game and something enticing players to stay above and beyond what SWTOR has as they wont start with 2 million + box sales.

If customization is your thing, you will be hooked. No two toons will ever be a like.

Originally posted by letsxhat

 

If customization is your thing, you will be hooked. No two toons will ever be a like.

 

Not sure if you're talking about TSW, but if you are, then you're simply wrong.

All toons converge to the same thing, since you can learn all abilities. The customization you're referring to is just the proficiencies, but the proficiencies are somewhat trivialized after the first point, so it's really just a < 20% difference in damage/healing/mitigation at the end.

I'm sure you could grasp straws and say that that is indeed some form of customization and you'd be right, but .. you'd never have any incentive to roll a different toon, because it would still play exactly the same.

 

 

@simplyawful

Even if everyone unlocks all abilities (and that's a big if) the difference comes from the fact that you can only use 7 active and 7 passive at the same time.

It's not like you can run around with hotbars with 515 slots on them and use all abilities at all times.

The customization comes from peoples builds. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that every character will be a special and unique snowflake, there is absolutely a lot of room for customization and differentiating yourself from others.

---

Originally posted by dubyahite
@simplyawfulEven if everyone unlocks all abilities (and that's a big if) the difference comes from the fact that you can only use 7 active and 7 passive at the same time. It's not like you can run around with hotbars with 515 slots on them and use all abilities at all times. The customization comes from peoples builds. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that every character will be a special and unique snowflake, there is absolutely a lot of room for customization and differentiating yourself from others.

---

there are two sides to this. yes, the customization is there. you can make your favorite little snowflake build and quest around, rp, etc. You can even give some obscure builds a go in pvp just to mess with people (which I will be doing from time to time hehe)

But this freedom also swings the other way in the shape of crazy hard group pve content. Theres a reason everyone has access to every ability and can change their decks easily: you're gonna have to in order to get past otherwise impossible boss encounters. If you're a hardcore raider, this game is going to challenge your group composition skills probably more than most mmos out there. You will have your problem solving skills tested more than your twitch skills. Sure there will be plenty of visual cues to surviving. But most of the tougher content will have your group or raid shuffling and reshuffling your decks and approaching fights from different angles til you get it right. This is the first time Ive actually looked forward to a raid since Karazahn.

Originally posted by dubyahite
@simplyawful

Even if everyone unlocks all abilities (and that's a big if) the difference comes from the fact that you can only use 7 active and 7 passive at the same time.

It's not like you can run around with hotbars with 515 slots on them and use all abilities at all times.

The customization comes from peoples builds. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that every character will be a special and unique snowflake, there is absolutely a lot of room for customization and differentiating yourself from others.

 

Not true again, because you can swap between decks at any time. The only real customization is SP and it's not really as deep as it was in Anarchy Online with IP either.

I'm glad it's there, it's just that the focus is different. It's more like you're supposed to play whatever you want at any time without restriction, instead of being confined to a single role like in typical MMOs.

 

The benefit is that you can do whatever you want/need to experience content. The drawback is that there is no replayability.

 

@DannyGlover


Yep. I couldn't be happier about that side of things.

I'm a raid/guild leader and I love to be presented with a challenge like that. I love the logistics of making sure we have everything we need and making decisions on the fly and having to adapt to some unperceived problem we come accross.

Having this system around is going to be quite challenging to coordinate, and I honestly think it is going to require input from the entire group when these situations pop up.

People are going to have to speak up and say "hey guys we wiped on this three times, I think I can tweak my build here and do this thing that will help us" while leaders are going to have a lot to keep track of as far as how people can spec and what skills they unlocked etc.


It sure beats "ok we have a warrior, a priest, some melée dps, and some ranged dps" that means we have the right group for this. Or "oh crap we don't have that one class on that we really need for this content we are screwed."

Instead you can say "hey Billy Bob, we're really hurting on heals in this fight, could you change your build to blood magic and give us some off heals because you have those skills unlocked? Even though you are using a melée dps weapon right now?"


The possibilities are looking pretty awesome and I can't wait to try some of the really hard stuff out.