Originally posted by Xasapis

Tera's first month isn't over yet and you proclaim it a failure already? I mean, seriously. Try to be objective once a while. The game might not do well and may get trampled by later releases, but so far we have no indication of either success (whatever that means for Tera's developers) or failure.

I can see how you can be so polarised about TSW, when you can't be objective about the simplest things.

Everything with less then 10M players is a failure in the eyes of a certain grouop of people

 

TSW is different enough from other games to warrant a secure place for some time to come among the listed MMO's, but its also different enough to not make the number one spot.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Xasapis

Tera's first month isn't over yet and you proclaim it a failure already? I mean, seriously. Try to be objective once a while. The game might not do well and may get trampled by later releases, but so far we have no indication of either success (whatever that means for Tera's developers) or failure.

I can see how you can be so polarised about TSW, when you can't be objective about the simplest things.

Everything with less then 10M players is a failure in the eyes of a certain grouop of people

 

TSW is different enough from other games to warrant a secure place for some time to come among the listed MMO's, but its also different enough to not make the number one spot.

no everything that does not get the expected success is a failure - tera was so far a financial failure - is now somwhere 4th place in korean mmo's with 140-150k subscribers...one of the exec. managers allready resigend because of the bad financial performance... you can look it up its on google

not mentionning the ongoing lawsuit from ncsoft against the game...

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

Originally posted by Xasapis

Tera's first month isn't over yet and you proclaim it a failure already? I mean, seriously. Try to be objective once a while. The game might not do well and may get trampled by later releases, but so far we have no indication of either success (whatever that means for Tera's developers) or failure.

I can see how you can be so polarised about TSW, when you can't be objective about the simplest things.

...i am looking at teras success (or rather fail) in asia... you can look those numbers up...asians didnt recieve it very well well...they left after a few weeks...game has currently 140-150k subscribers

I wouldn't call a failure being 3rd most popular mmorpg and with subscription instead of the more traditional F2P monetary system there. It didn't trample Aion there, I would agree to that, but I would hardly call it a failure. Under this logic, Rift is a failure, since they didn't manage to dethrone WoW, or EVE.

Going back to TSW, the bigger danger is hardly the combat. The biggest danger, imo, is having a story with an ending, SW:TOR style. Since we'll basically make one character that can do everything, the game needs to occupy us with activities that will transcend merely a linear story, no matter how interesting. That will be the real challenge Funcom will be facing.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

Originally posted by Xasapis

Tera's first month isn't over yet and you proclaim it a failure already? I mean, seriously. Try to be objective once a while. The game might not do well and may get trampled by later releases, but so far we have no indication of either success (whatever that means for Tera's developers) or failure.

I can see how you can be so polarised about TSW, when you can't be objective about the simplest things.

...i am looking at teras success (or rather fail) in asia... you can look those numbers up...asians didnt recieve it very well well...they left after a few weeks...game has currently 140-150k subscribers

I wouldn't call a failure being 3rd most popular mmorpg and with subscription instead of the more traditional F2P monetary system there. It didn't trample Aion there, I would agree to that, but I would hardly call it a failure. Under this logic, Rift is a failure, since they didn't manage to dethrone WoW, or EVE.

no its a failure because

they didnt reach their financial target

theyre being sued by ncsoft for stolen property - is it even sure now that the game launches at all in the us?

they have hardly any player base and this that soon after launch

they had bad reception in korea and asia

they are not being 3rd buth 4th in korea

but thats no thread about tera - i really dont give a rats ass about that game

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

 i havent met a single person so far saying - after playing one of the mentionned games - that he wants to go back to traditional mmo combat

As someone that works in marketing myself, I can tell you that what customers say and what customers DO are very different things.  I haven't met many people that played TR and didn't absolutley love the combat system.  Yet the game is dead.  And vast majority of people agree that TOR's combat is pretty bad, yet all kinds of people are still playing it.  

 

My point isn't that good combat systems don't matter, it's that they don't seem to be making any difference in their games' commercial success.

 

As a personal example:   after playing EQ2 for many years, i have a hard time even with most "traditional" combat systems if they use this retarded "global cooldown" system that's become popular lately (Rift, TOR, TSW and a few other games have it).  With EQ2 combat being so fluid, i have a hard time just spamming same button over and over waiting for my spell to trigger in these newer games.  But yet, here i am, still playing those games, because ultimately, they are still interesting on some level despite the combat shortcomings.  And even though DCUO has better combat, I'm not playing it because i don't like other aspects of it.

 

 

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

Originally posted by eluldor

Umm I was reading on official forums about people complaining on not being fast enough to dodge out of AOEs, the response was that there would be a double tap dodge. Sorry, don't have the time to provide a link.

the devs also said that animations were only placeholder and that everything would get so much better - and now theyre saying well its mostly done dont expect to many changes - bs - as most things from failcom

Actually: they already improved it. If you compare for instance caster animations that are in the game now with videos from half a year ago, you see that it is different...

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

1) speed it up 25%

2) allow players to actively dodge (as in gw2)

3) possibly allow players to actively block and push back enemies

4) make animations of characers much more dynamic and action oriented (less realistic but better looking) - you should feel the impact your weapon has and the hits of the enemy - make enemies stagger from heavy blows and make your character stagger from heavy blows

5) imrove the sound effects to fit the combat - see 4

6) improve the effects (visually and mechanically) of attacks - if something goes boom it should go BOOM and not pffff.... and enemies should feel that

7) possibily make skills more dynamic, interactive - with other skills and other players and more action oriented

Almost agree with that. However #4 I can't agree with in the aspect of making things "less realistic" any more unrealistic stuff in this game (See 20 foot high bunny hopping for example) and it will have to be reclassified as a purely fantasy genre game.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

 i havent met a single person so far saying - after playing one of the mentionned games - that he wants to go back to traditional mmo combat

As someone that works in marketing myself, I can tell you that what customers say and what customers DO are very different things.  I haven't met many people that played TR and didn't absolutley love the combat system.  Yet the game is dead.  And vast majority of people agree that TOR's combat is pretty bad, yet all kinds of people are still playing it.  

 

My point isn't that good combat systems don't matter, it's that they don't seem to be making any difference in their games' commercial success.

 

As a personal example:   after playing EQ2 for many years, i have a hard time even with most "traditional" combat systems if they use this retarded "global cooldown" system that's become popular lately (Rift, TOR, TSW and a few other games have it).  With EQ2 combat being so fluid, i have a hard time just spamming same button over and over waiting for my spell to trigger in these newer games.  But yet, here i am, still playing those games, because ultimately, they are still interesting on some level despite the combat shortcomings.  And even though DCUO has better combat, I'm not playing it because i don't like other aspects of it.

 

 

sure you are right there are several aspects to success - but tor has a strong franchise and is from a company with a very good reputation - two things tsw doesnt have... the secret world has really good aspects, but that doesnt mean we cant and shouldnt make it better in other areas as well

Originally posted by Kazuhiro

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

1) speed it up 25%

2) allow players to actively dodge (as in gw2)

3) possibly allow players to actively block and push back enemies

4) make animations of characers much more dynamic and action oriented (less realistic but better looking) - you should feel the impact your weapon has and the hits of the enemy - make enemies stagger from heavy blows and make your character stagger from heavy blows

5) imrove the sound effects to fit the combat - see 4

6) improve the effects (visually and mechanically) of attacks - if something goes boom it should go BOOM and not pffff.... and enemies should feel that

7) possibily make skills more dynamic, interactive - with other skills and other players and more action oriented

Almost agree with that. However #4 I can't agree with in the aspect of making things "less realistic" any more unrealistic stuff in this game (See 20 foot high bunny hopping for example) and it will have to be reclassified as a purely fantasy genre game.

dunno how to multiquote so im sorry - by making it more flashy/fun to watch, i dont want to make it like some asian action game - dont get me wrong, but i do think some effects right now are not even on pair of what they would look in real reality (sticky bomb from ar for example) - the combat looking fun/dynamic/effectful/ will lead to the combat feel fun/dynamic/effectful - thats where this game needs to be heading - look at a game like the witcher 2 for example, its pretty realistic but the combat still looks and feels more BOOOM than the secret world... believe me i loved aoc especially for being realistic and not high fantasy - and thats why im a sucker for tsw - but aoc still had that WOW effect tsw combat simply doesnt have

having for example a grenade ripping zombies into pieces, blood, guts everywhere, smoke, a big kaboom, earth/screen shaking, npcs that are clos getting thrown to the ground and half zombie torsos still crawling into my direction is realistc...

impaling the zombie with its own ripped off arm not so much...(altough that would be kinda fun too)

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

1) speed it up 25%

2) allow players to actively dodge (as in gw2)

3) possibly allow players to actively block and push back enemies

4) make animations of characers much more dynamic and action oriented (less realistic but better looking) - you should feel the impact your weapon has and the hits of the enemy - make enemies stagger from heavy blows and make your character stagger from heavy blows

5) imrove the sound effects to fit the combat - see 4

6) improve the effects (visually and mechanically) of attacks - if something goes boom it should go BOOM and not pffff.... and enemies should feel that

7) possibily make skills more dynamic, interactive - with other skills and other players and more action oriented

1)  I'm fine with the speed.

2)  Yes

3)  Probably not going to happen because that stuff is incorporated with their state mechanic, but a more clear representation of that happening would be nice.

4)  I agree with you to a point.  I think they don't want our characters becoming super-heroes though.  Fine line to ride with this one.

5)  I like most of the sounds for combat actually.  I can't stand the Assault Rifle however.

6) Well there are some effects that this does work for, but they are generally the more powerful abilities.  In general this could be looked at I agree.

7)  This I don't even know what it means.  You can use any ability on the move.  The states you create are combos other players can build off of.  Skills are already dynamic and interactive with other skills that you use or other players used based on the states of said target(s).  Now if you're talking VISUAL represenation of said mechanics that are already in the game, I completely agree with you.  Many times it's difficult to realize when you have a critical hit vs. glancing blow, with the exception of actually reading on your screen that is.

 

Short answer "have less combat".

The game is very niche, and that niche is all to do with the world, lore and puzzles.  I don't think anyone is going to play TSW because "they want to beat zombies up, over and over and over again".

Make combat harder, but make it less frequent.

TRY THE SKILLS LATER ON IN THE GAME!!

Remember you have just tried the "noob" area and the "noob" skills. Keep your pants on and wait for what the 133t skills will do with regards to animation, effect and combat tacticks. 

Does every weapon involve building "charges" to use for harder attacks, AOE and/or finisher attacks? And is this true of even higher tier attacks? If so, this should absolutely change, but I doubt it will.

Originally posted by Lagoz

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

the combat is fine yea right thats why the game recieves all the hate mostly for combat and animations - just your answer "the perfect repetition" shows that you live in the past my friend - its time to move into the future - if this game cannot manage this while other games do that are not even pay to play...the game will fail, funcome will fail again...potentially the last time...

there is a reason gw2 has a huge fan base and ravaging reviews...there is a reason tsw doesnt, there is a reason mmo marekts are declining and that everyone is bored by the tried and true... there is a reason nokia is going down while apple is thriving - markets move and you have to follow - or die

The main reason people are dissing the combat is because it's not GW2 or Tera. Which in my opinion is completely wrong approach. The combat was supposed to be an upgrade from the traditional mmorpg combat and it certainly does that.  TSW has the best combat system of all the previous traditional hotkey mmorpg's. Also the combat system feels dull at first but when you start realising the potential in terms of double finishers, debuffs chains, etc.. it gets a lot more interesting. It's not a flashy combat system it's a deep combat system.

It's easy to rant about the combat when you play a limited beta with only the basic skills, fighting the weakest monsters in the game in a welcoming new player friendly zone. People went berserk about Tera having awful combat as it is before you hit higher levels. The same goes with TSW.

If you don't enjoy the combat in TSW, move along. They are not going to change it in a month and for me that's a good thing.

And for nice to know: I didn't enjoy GW2 combat that much. The dodge mechanic is gimmicky and the combat itself is a freaking chaotic spamfest Oo

 

 

It's not that deep. My EQ2 dirge has over 60 buttons on his action bar of which 30 or so are actively used in combat. I can not possibly just spam buttons at random so you have to do things like plan your strategy around things like how much health the mob has left, who else is in the fight and what kinds of buffs/debuffs they have, does the current stage of the script require you to be in a certain location, does anyone need buffs, heals, rezes, etc. etc. TSW's system has a much more detailed way to setup my toon before the fight starts but much fewer options on how to execute that fight once you press the first combat once you start a fight. There is no means to swap weapons in combat which would make it more tactical. Nor is there a way to swap skills in combat which would do the same (maybe have a system where you can build points in combat that you can spend by swapping weapons/skiills?). The building attacks that you spend on finishers isn't really a unique or particularly interesting system to me especially when your options for active finishers is so limited.

Originally posted by dumbo11

Short answer "have less combat".

The game is very niche, and that niche is all to do with the world, lore and puzzles.  I don't think anyone is going to play TSW because "they want to beat zombies up, over and over and over again".

Make combat harder, but make it less frequent.

 

That is a good point.  Almost seems like that's what the devs had in mind, but were afraid to take it all the way.  Also, would be cool if there were lots of non-combat skills along the wheel, and RP stuff to flesh out the atmosphere with.  Then I might be more inclined to agree with the "total freedom" bit, too.

 

Originally posted by Lagoz

 The combat was supposed to be an upgrade from the traditional mmorpg combat and it certainly does that.  TSW has the best combat system of all the previous traditional hotkey mmorpg's. Also the combat system feels dull at first but when you start realising the potential in terms of double finishers, debuffs chains, etc.. it gets a lot more interesting. It's not a flashy combat system it's a deep combat system.

It's easy to rant about the combat when you play a limited beta with only the basic skills, fighting the weakest monsters in the game in a welcoming new player friendly zone. People went berserk about Tera having awful combat as it is before you hit higher levels. The same goes with TSW.

If you don't enjoy the combat in TSW, move along. They are not going to change it in a month and for me that's a good thing.

And for nice to know: I didn't enjoy GW2 combat that much. The dodge mechanic is gimmicky and the combat itself is a freaking chaotic spamfest Oo

 

Best combat system of all the previous traditional hotkey mmorpgs? Don't make me laugh, its more like the bottom 10. Its terrible and the vast majority agree, which is why you see so many threads like this and Funcom has said they are already working on it.

The only thing that needs to be worked on is the animations, so that they look really cool. Everything else is just fine.

Oh.. and you can actually dodge attacks in the current system. You only need to do a step to the left or the right, when you see the white cone on the ground.

Seriously. I don't want something ala TERA or GW2 as a combat-system. If I'm interested in action combat, then I go play something like Unreal or SoulCalibur. In TSW I'm looking forward to a slower paced and more ressource-based combat system, which is just fine.

Originally posted by dumbo11

Short answer "have less combat".

The game is very niche, and that niche is all to do with the world, lore and puzzles.  I don't think anyone is going to play TSW because "they want to beat zombies up, over and over and over again".

Make combat harder, but make it less frequent.

Amen to this.  Look at EQ1, defeating a mob in that (while too slow) was a big deal.  Pulling the mobs was a mini game unto itself.

OP:  the combat does not need to be faster, it's plenty fast as it is.  It needs to be more tactical.  I should need to pay attention to what the mob is doing or I will pay dearly.  Less fights but tougher fights is definitely the way to go.

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

1) speed it up 25%

2) allow players to actively dodge (as in gw2)

3) possibly allow players to actively block and push back enemies

4) make animations of characers much more dynamic and action oriented (less realistic but better looking) - you should feel the impact your weapon has and the hits of the enemy - make enemies stagger from heavy blows and make your character stagger from heavy blows

5) imrove the sound effects to fit the combat - see 4

6) improve the effects (visually and mechanically) of attacks - if something goes boom it should go BOOM and not pffff.... and enemies should feel that

7) possibily make skills more dynamic, interactive - with other skills and other players and more action oriented

Let me just state this need for an action combat is rubbish.  I listened to Total Biscuit's mailbag (May 7th edition) and he is pretty much saying the way of hot bar combat is going away.  I disagreed with him there and I DISAGREE WITH YOU NOW.  Hotbar, tab target combat is here to stay and I know plenty of MMO gamers who enjoy that style way more because it feels more organic to the genre, and doesnt make you have to have the hand/eye coordination of a twitch gamer.

 

An active dodge button would be kind of cool, but then again TSW is not suited to it because they have things like block parry and dodge on top of defense ratings.

 

Animations are being worked on but they wont drastically change heres a snippit from one of the blog posts the other day:

EDITOR's NOTE: Since publishing this article, we've heard some feedback from Funcom about our concerns with character creation and the animations. Our Funcom source told us that the character creation is indeed very much limited in this beta build, and will be more fully fleshed out in the future with options and the like. As for animations, Erling explained two things. One is that there are many animations which are not yet final in this build. The second part is that because of the team's decision to allow characters to move while casting skills, they had to untie the upper body from the lower body in the animations. This means there will be times when swinging a sword or using your fist weapons will look odd, but it's the price they've had to pay for allowing players the ability to move while attacking at any time. Basically, it becomes more difficult to structure animations that always look perfect when the characters can't move during the animations.

Disagree all you want but its not going to change and for once a developer has the balls to come out and tell you why they did soemthing the way they did.  I like the candidness.

 

I think you crazy if you think the sound was bad, to me its some of the nost immersive of any MMO I have ever played.  From authentic rifle sounds to the whipping of a hammer through the air as it crunches against the side of a zombies head.  Funcom got this right.

 

Again most of your things you want changed are opinionated which has no bearing on anyone other then yourself, its like me asking for McDonalds to change the Special Sauce on their Big Mac because I dislike the Mayonaise in it.  Just because you do not like it does not give you the right to change it for others.

 

Gw2 doesn't have action combat, its not that different to tsw but with dodging.

I slightly prefer gw2 combat.

Tsw combat I like, its better than your typical wow type combat. The people not liking the combat, I suspect they were trying to play tsw combat like it was wow clone combat. That won't work, your damage will suck and you will get hurt a lot. You can't stand there spamming a rotation.