Flexibility is not a bad thing as such.

But I do think that if you equip a certain skill that should in many casses make certain other skills unequipable at the same time.

As I see it, it is the skills that should be put into classes, not the characters. But you should have to make choices.

If you equip "thief" skills that should possible lock out other kinds of skills (like military skills for example), or allow you to select only one of them. That works very well in P&P games and stops you from just picking all the best skills and have them at the same time.

Flexibility is good but you should also have to make hard choices when you create a spec.. Classes limits your choices permanently, here you can respec between different things as you wish.

Originally posted by Loke666

If you equip "thief" skills that should possible lock out other kinds of skills (like military skills for example), or allow you to select only one of them. That works very well in P&P games and stops you from just picking all the best skills and have them at the same time.

In a way, the system does do that by limiting the number of skills you have.  So (using your example), if you take the "thief" skill, then every "military" skill you pick prevents you from taking a supporting thief skill.  So you can be a thief or a soldier or a half-thief / half-soldier, but you never become BOTH thief AND soldier at the same time because you don't can't take enough skills to fully support both simultaneously.

By reading the articles, it sound very much like skills build on each other, so it's not a particular skill that's powerful, but a combination of complementing skills that is.  So taking 7 separate powerful skills won't give you nearly as good a character as taking 7 complementing skills or 3 complementing plus 4 complenting, etc.   At least that's how i read it.

That you are limited to 7 active skills and 7 passive skills at once is a hard choice in itself. I have seen some examples of especially passive skills that all seem to fit a build nicely, but you have to leave so many of them out of your build. You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

Also you can ''only'' use 2 weapons at once. Most active skills are tied to weapon type, while passive skills can be used much more freely (tho not all of them).

All the time i see people thinking that in this system people can just switch roles all the time and do them all equally. You can do this, but only after spending a large amount of time building decks for the different roles, almost like leveling and getting gear for an alt. Still people tend to stick with the playstyle they like, i dont see everyone being the same in the end.

Originally posted by Volkmar

Is the Ability system too open? 

In my experience the community will sort that out, probably before launch even, with declaring a few 'pro' builds to be whats acceptable.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Also its more like eve meets GW as a system

*swoons*

Originally posted by arieste
 

By reading the articles, it sound very much like skills build on each other, so it's not a particular skill that's powerful, but a combination of complementing skills that is.  So taking 7 separate powerful skills won't give you nearly as good a character as taking 7 complementing skills or 3 complementing plus 4 complenting, etc.   At least that's how i read it.

This is very much how it works. Not only on a character level, but also on a group level. Its all about putting enemies in different states and taking advantage of these states.

At the same time there will be many ways to fullfill different roles. For example you might have a tank that focuses on just blocking, where he gets certain benefits from blocking (healing self and damaging enemy), or you can have a tank/dps who rely on lifeleech to stay alive, or a tank that uses protective charms to soak up damage, or a tank with an enourmous healthbar, or a tank that has a massive amount of armor etc. All these different ways to play are supported by the gear you can get (9 chakras + 1 weapon) that can get very specific for different playstyles.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Volkmar

Is the Ability system too open? 

 

In my experience the community will sort that out, probably before launch even, with declaring a few 'pro' builds to be whats acceptable.

 

This will probably happen to some degree. You dont have to play with those guys tho.

Originally posted by Hycoo

 You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

I hadn't heard of elite skills.  this is somewhat disappointing, because with ONE elite skill, I think it's highly likely that most decks will be built around that 1 skill, which in turn will severely limit the number of viable skills.  This is the first thing i heard about the skill system that i didn't like...

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Hycoo

 You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

I hadn't heard of elite skills.  this is somewhat disappointing, because with ONE elite skill, I think it's highly likely that most decks will be built around that 1 skill, which in turn will severely limit the number of viable skills.  This is the first thing i heard about the skill system that i didn't like...

Yeah i was dissapointed aswell when i first heard about it. It wasnt in the original design, so i think it was made like this for a reason.  After thinking about i dont know if it makes much of a difference. The idea is that these skills will kind of be the core of your build. This way hybrids will be mostly focused on one or the other aspect of the two parts you are a hybrid of. Say you are a aoe dps / single target dps character. Your elite skill(s) will determine what you excel at the most. From what I've seen the elite skills come in alot of flavours, but having 2 elite skills will be important for your build.

Originally posted by Hycoo

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Hycoo

 You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

I hadn't heard of elite skills.  this is somewhat disappointing, because with ONE elite skill, I think it's highly likely that most decks will be built around that 1 skill, which in turn will severely limit the number of viable skills.  This is the first thing i heard about the skill system that i didn't like...

Yeah i was dissapointed aswell when i first heard about it. It wasnt in the original design, so i think it was made like this for a reason.  After thinking about i dont know if it makes much of a difference. The idea is that these skills will kind of be the core of your build. This way hybrids will be mostly focused on one or the other aspect of the two parts you are a hybrid of. Say you are a aoe dps / single target dps character. Your elite skill(s) will determine what you excel at the most. From what I've seen the elite skills come in alot of flavours, but having 2 elite skills will be important for your build.

bah.  the more i think about it, the worse it sounds.  so instead of classes you now have "elite skills", which will ultimately be the equivalent of classes, just with different options.  

while it's still tons more options than your average MMO, it's not nearly as diverse as a wide-open system.  

Well you already have synergies in place making certain skills best suited with eachother, which is what some might wanna call class-like. Still it depends on how many elite skills there are. I would say the elite skills arent that much more powerful, more specialized rather. Again i am not sure if it makes that much of a difference. Guess you would have to see it to believe it :)

The problem with a fully open system is that over time as the game matures eventually everyone will be able to do everything (or close too).  The problem here is in an effort to make Charectors as unique as possible the end result is everyone is exactly the same!!   

While I hated Rift for numerous reasons the fact ultimately everyone would ended up exactly the same was a major reason i quit in a week. IMO Charectors need to have a feel to them, e.g. my bearded old man with a trench coat and a shotgun should be good at single target DPS maybee but if he can do everything eventually his persona is totally lost.

Hopefully you will only be allowed 1 elite skill (for passive and active) period.... and not per deck.

Im guessing the majority of players would agree with me about the Charector feel / persona issue.  After all is everyone is the same in the long run why play an MMO, just play a FPS with different outfits.

Originally posted by bloodbone

The problem with a fully open system is that over time as the game matures eventually everyone will be able to do everything (or close too).  The problem here is in an effort to make Charectors as unique as possible the end result is everyone is exactly the same!!   

While I hated Rift for numerous reasons the fact ultimately everyone would ended up exactly the same was a major reason i quit in a week. IMO Charectors need to have a feel to them, e.g. my bearded old man with a trench coat and a shotgun should be good at single target DPS maybee but if he can do everything eventually his persona is totally lost.

Hopefully you will only be allowed 1 elite skill (for passive and active) period.... and not per deck.

Im guessing the majority of players would agree with me about the Charector feel / persona issue.  After all is everyone is the same in the long run why play an MMO, just play a FPS with different outfits.

That everyone will get every skill and gear to support any combination of them is not gonna happen. Those who are very dedicated to the game will after hundeds or thousands of hours do tho. Its a tradeoff with the system that some people dont like, and feels that it makes them less of a character in the end. A guess for me would be that after spending so much time on advancing just one character, i would feel very much connected to him. I could be wrong tho, but im eager to try it.

But, if you wanna be a character that is only good at pistols and swords you can do that and dont lose out on any content. You dont have use any skill you dont want to. And i think you still will be able to make alts, even tho its not needed. Dont know if this is much of a comfort for you tho.

The way i see it is that im much more unique with this system than in any other class based system. I am free to build any kind of character i want to. The chances of me being the same as another player in terms skill combination, gear and clothing are very small. Compare this to class based games, where if you are a warrior the chances of you being the same as the next warrior you see are relatively high. Me running around looking and having the exact same skills as the dude next to me is a big turnoff for me. Like watching streams of TERA. The game looks good and the combat engaging, but anyone with a big axe is the same as the next one with a big axe.

In real life im a good football player, an experienced cook and i have a bachelor degree in engineering. I only use those skills when its suitable tho. I still very much feel like a character tho.

And no, you will be able to get every elite skill in the game. But they are very expensive :)

Originally posted by bloodbone

Im guessing the majority of players would agree with me about the Charector feel / persona issue.  After all is everyone is the same in the long run why play an MMO, just play a FPS with different outfits.    

I doubt that most would agree with this.  Your character is still yoru character. It's defined by YOU, not by what class it is or what you happen to be wearing that day.  

EVE is one of the deepest and best developed games on the market despite the fact that everyone can literally have every single skill.  But their characters are still perfectly well defined and attached to by the players.  

Not to mention taht even with every available possibility, people still tend to choose to focus on something they enjoy rather than changing their character every time they play.    In Rift, even if you have 1000 options to choose from, most people had 3 or 4 set combos that they played, so you knew what to expect from them.   I don't know EVE well enough, but I'm pretty sure that despite being able to do ANYTHING, most people have a couple of roles/loadouts that they prefer playing and they end up playing them most of the time.

From the character-system perspective, TSW  is kinda like the anti-TOR in the sense that instead of forcing you to make 15 alts, you never ever have to make an alt, you just evolve the same character you've been attached to.

"That everyone will get every skill and gear to support any combination of them is not gonna happen. Those who are very dedicated to the game will after hundeds or thousands of hours do tho. Its a tradeoff with the system that some people dont like, and feels that it makes them less of a character in the end."

 

 

I Guess this is the crux of it if it would be virtually impossible to have ever skill combo (thousands of hours of play) then Im not to concerned about it.  I think the last two posts (after mine) bring up very good points, I just hope there is a real sense of differentation among players and its not assumed everyone (at a certain point in maturity) can do everything.

One way to achieve this would make each new skill more difficult to achieve then the last which would lead to insane amount of work after say 100 or 150 abilities (sort of like exp.?).  I realize this is not the TSW model, it certainly will take a real "balancing act" though to make it feasable to complete certain trees but extreme difficult to obtain everything.  As long as the later is reserved for crazy ass grinders then Ill be happy.

The point about EVE is very true though, I guess that gives the TSW a good real working model upon which to alter and build from as well.  Ive never played EVE but from what I here there system works well. 

Just gonne quote a dev of how it most likely will be for most players starting to play TSW:

The first time we gave the systems to the developers to play with, the first time they were played internally, people went in with this class idea. They thought, ‘I’m Mr Hammer, that’s what I am, that’s what I want to be’. They’d build a hammer wielder but then see someone with a sword doing a nifty dash and think, ‘that looks cool’. So then they’d buy the sword stuff, just for the dash. So then they are hammer guy with the dash. And then they think, ‘when I do the dash I can also knock people over, so let’s take another skill from elsewhere that hits the prone monster hard’. By the end of the process they’re playing a character totally different from what they used to be at the start. We’ve talked a little about templates, which can guide new people and show them the path. But it’s very natural to experiment, sometimes just for the sake of coolness. When I first played I thought, I love pistols, I’m going ot be a pistol guy. So I ran in with dual pistols and I thought, yeah, I’m a kickass pistol guy.

But then pistols and swords? Even cooler! So I started mucking around with that. So it works on an aesthetic level but also on a pure mechanics level. You might see something useful but you might also just see someone throw a grenade and think, where are grenades? Oh! In assault rifles – better buy into that then because I want a couple of grenades! It’s a metagame. You start playing around in there, maybe to be the best of the best, maybe just for fun. Maybe it’s just because you adjust your playstyle because of certain monsters.

The thing with the skillwheel is that the first skills you can aquire are rather cheap and general so you can easily try out different weapons and magic. The further into the skillwheel you go the skills gets more expensive and specialized (not stronger).

Originally posted by bloodbone

The point about EVE is very true though, I guess that gives the TSW a good real working model upon which to alter and build from as well.  Ive never played EVE but from what I here there system works well. 

yeah if you specialize you can get up to speed with vets quicker than if you genralize.  But vets have more options in terms of being able to swap decks, run hybrid builds etc..  Looking at the templates, most of the templates seem specialized, except for a couple of mob grinding type templates.

 Is the Ability system too open?

No.

No it isnt, about time a game dosnt have a cookie cutter talent tree, for those who find this too open there are plenty of games out there for them that will lead them by the hand.

So good to see for once something newish tried,