Originally posted by Jazuh

Originally posted by strangerdang

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by spookydom

*snup*

And let's not forget Anarchy Online launch day. Read this it's a classic. http://www.somethingawful.com/d/feature-articles/ianarchy-onlinei-first.php

Oh wow ... and there was me thinking AoC was about the worst you could have at launch.

That's the thing... anecdotal evidence aside, as an overall whole, the general consensus appears to be that Anarchy Online and AoC were two of the most legendarily bad launch experiences ever for MMORPGs.

I did not try AoC, because of Anarchy Online... I actually WAS one of those people crashing every two minutes.  It took a few patches before I could even play and get outside properly, and the crashes never really went away for me, totally.

Now, I did have some fun in the game, and I remember being impressed by some things, but all the crashes, the bone-breaking lag and such left an overall bad taste in my mouth.  I quit, and was told a few months later that it was 'better', but first impressions are really important.

So I decided that for AoC I'd wait for release and ask how it went.  My friends mostly had ' :( ' as their response, so I just shrugged and gave up.  Since I would have had to update my computer just to play it, i figured it wasn't worth spending lots of extra money just to maybe not enjoy myself.

Never did get around to playing it!  Just like AO and AoC, TSW has an interesting concept, but... well, I'm not in some huge hurry to buy it at launch.  I can wait.  :)

 Comparing the AO launch and the AoC launch is kind of silly.

In early 2001, i dont think it could have been forseen the amount of issues that would arise from launching a game of that magnitude to a huge audience.  Lets not forget that AO wansnt a standard issue game, it had tens of thousands of items, and actually predates viable graphics cards.  This is why they are attempting (with a tiny crew) to inpliment a new engin into AO, the old one basically ignores your graphic card, this is an attempt to extend the ancient games playability.  This is something you just dont see with larger game companies.  They get bought out by large companies, games that are not wild successes are scrapped, technology's bones are picked, and they release a stale and souless game to the dissapointment of many.

Funcom didnt go this route. 

With AoC, they had investors and owners of the IP breathing down their neck, the game HAD to be released early to satisfy them and in an attempt to clinch the marketplace due to excessive advertising and hype...IT WORKED, they sold millions of boxes, true most didnt stay, but they made a good chunk of money, enough to sustain losses and keep AoC going, not only maintaining it but further developing it.  AoC was a work of art, graphics like that were unseen before it in  the mmorpg world, and it was obvious that the lions share of prelaunch development went into the look rather the meat of the game.  However, in traditional funcom spirit, they stuck with it.  They managed to turn it into a game that not only looked great, but had (imo) one of the best combat systems to date in a mmo.  Eventhough it didnt need it, they even upgraded to a new game engin, which leads me to believe that they are pretesting TSW's engin (a good thing) but also planning to stick with AoC for quite some time.  I imagine a lot of posters old and grey posting 10 years from now about how much AoC sucks because it had a bad launch 12 years ago...

 

So the big question is will they rush the launch, we all know what happens when any game makes a mad dash to launch.  My guess is that they wont, however i know there will be issues come launch, and a bunch of people will go "ah ha! told you so"

Those who cant take a possible rocky road should wait out TSW, those who know that it will eventually be a great game, will stick around and enjoy it for what its worth untill its a solid game.

The only way i can see this game being a huge failure is for the game to not be diffrent.  A grindy skill based themepark with no soul.  However this would be a first for funcom, i dont see it happening. 

TSW seems more like an AO type game, a unique entry, not a IP cover like AoC directed at the wow audience.  This game seems to be pointed directly at those of us who dont want that type of game.

If it means anything you you guys, i talked about TSW in Rift.  The community LOL'ed at me....it wasnt fantasy, no OP class for them to pick.. "no thanks", to me that was a good thing.  A lot of the features and game "style" i brought up was scoffed at, it wasnt the kind of game they are looking for (Rift is a displaced wow community if you didnt know already...and the ALL are playing while waiting out that starwars game btw)

 

I just hope they take their time and have a quiet launch, people have no patience for crappy launches anymore, especially from funcom.

Couldn't have said it better myself my friend, kudos to you!

 I agree with this post-I can only hope TSW turns out to be more of the interactive sandbox novel it appears to be. Where you control the novel by how you interact with the NPC's within the novel as well as other gamers ingame.

Lets be honest.

The first 20 levels of AoC were amazing, aside from graphical glitches, it was a stunning presentation of a starter area in an mmo.

The problem was it lost its shine the further you got from tortage, at least for me anyway.

Now we have Tornquist on the job, and I do believe if they can expand upon the first 20 levels of AoC, as far as presentation is concerned, I think TSW will hit it just right, yes, I am talking g spot.

However, time will tell.

I believe mmos have a co-efficient ratio as far as what is promised and what is reality. However I do think there comes a point when the ratio goes from being directly proportionate to inversely once they exceed a certain amount of promised content. However, it is only a theoretical co-efficient as we are moving forward and with technology, and trial and error, we will eventually reach that what we grasp for.

I expect this game to follow the trend of AOC, which I have played since launch.  Excellent graphics and animation, good storyline, and an overall interesting and beautiful world.  Those are the good parts.  If Funcom knows how to do one thing well, it is bait players.  The first 20 levels of AOC are a great example of this and are probably the most enjoyable in the game (except now that they removed pvp in these zones).

Funcom is and will continue to promise amazing things from TSW and, in all honesty, I think they believe they can deliver.  But they can't and they won't (in my opinion).  Just like in AOC, they will say and do whatever it takes to maintain as large a player base as possible for as long as possible.  Funcom doesn't seem to follow the logic that players will want to play a good, stable game.  Instead they do their best to convince you that you want to play because of this next awesome thing they will be releasing.  Instead you get some strange version of what they promised but, wait!  The next release will have what you are looking for.  And repeat.

On top of this, I have never played a game that was exploited and hacked as much as AOC.  But Funcom seemed to care less.  Welll known exploits existed for over a year and Funcom's typical fix was to punish everyone with bad, ill-thought patches rather than deal with the exploiters.  There was a well known cheat program that probably did nearly as well as Funcom (due to less overhead).

If you are interested in the game, though, I would definitely go for it.  If you can overlook the often glaring problems with their games, they are fun to play for the most part.  But if you start noticing these trends, don't fool yourself that things will be different in a few months.  Things will go downhill and continue to go downhill.  I've watched AOC go from a game with great potential into a gear-based, grindy mess where the common approach to doing anything is figuring out how to exploit it.

Here's hoping, though, that Funcom turns over a new leaf.  But I seriously doubt it and will pass on TSW.  In fact, I will never play another Funcom game again.

Originally posted by jetface

Funcom doesn't seem to follow the logic that players will want to play a good, stable game.

Eh... they had a rough launch with a too-early released game with AoC, but it was a good MMORPG and after a couple of months, also a stable game. In fact, it's one of the better MMORPG's around in my eyes. But yeah, they should've released the game as it was a year after launch, with a lot of content issues and bugs straightened out.

Don't forget their expansion last year that many players couldn't even zone into without crashing.  And their DX10 update that reduced performance for many players despite their claims that, even for DX9 users, performance would increase.  Coupled with patches that led to players falling through the world in instances, funcom has routinely fixed one thing and caused issues with another.

As far as connection stability, it has become better than launch, but launch connectivity was abysmal.  It could've only become worse if AOC caused disconnection problems in other software.

I do agree, though, that AOC is better than anything out there right now.  I just feel, as many other players do, that the games potential was wasted by poor decisions by Funcom.  I give them full props for the innovations they introduced with the game.  They are why I still play (well, and my year sub re-upped because I forgot to cancel and they wouldn't refund it when I realized the next day).  Like I said before, if you can overlook the glaring problems, exploits, hacks, etc., AOC is fun to play.  If you are playing any other MMO, you should be playing AOC. 

The combat system, while watered down now, was a welcome change when the game launched.  Funcom eventually decided to cater to players that couldn't handle the combo system (they said this themselves) and made casters operate like every other MMO.  And in doing so, create easy mode classes (again something they admitted to), in order to maintain subscribers.  This is just one example of many decisions made by Funcom that were driven by making money rather than raising the bar in the MMO industry.  Which is why the game's potential was wasted.

In the end, Funcom will say and do anything to make money.  That is their #1 priority.  They could care less about the player experience or breaking new ground.  I think their developers want to break new ground but they are hamstrung by the sales team.  And making money, of course, should be a top priority of any for-profit company.  But most find that customer satisfaction is the way to do this, rather than taking the Funcom approach of making promises they don't keep.  For instance, DX10 was supposed to be in game from launch but wasn't fully implemented until over 2 years later.  And they put that on the box!  Talk about false advertising.

Again, hopefully I'm wrong, but when TSW launches, lets see what claims Funcom is making that still hold water a month or two down the road.

By the way, Maverick, do you still play AOC?  Why do or don't you?

Originally posted by jetface

The combat system, while watered down now, was a welcome change when the game launched.  Funcom eventually decided to cater to players that couldn't handle the combo system (they said this themselves) and made casters operate like every other MMO.  And in doing so, create easy mode classes (again something they admitted to), in order to maintain subscribers.  This is just one example of many decisions made by Funcom that were driven by making money rather than raising the bar in the MMO industry.  Which is why the game's potential was wasted.

Again, hopefully I'm wrong, but when TSW launches, lets see what claims Funcom is making that still hold water a month or two down the road.

 

By the way, Maverick, do you still play AOC?  Why do or don't you?

Ah heya, only just now saw this post

As for the combat system, it's my firm conviction that they should have implemented their combat system for ALL classes, but then with the addition of the new ranger combo system.

Why? The most heard problem is that when you do a skill you have to perform a number of directional white attacks (swing right - swing upper left - strike from above - etc) before you can do the combo finisher. The ranger combo system is variable: you can either fire off the skill without preceding strikes, or  you can load up several directional attacks that each add a wide range of effects depending upon the combo skill you want to fire off: so you can for example either fire off a 3-arrow attack straight away, or you can precede it with a left directional attack that fires an arrow and loads up a root effect for the combo finisher or you can fire an upper right directional attack first which adds an armor penetrating effect, or you do both those directional attacks first and then you fire off the 3-arrow combo attack but now they're armor penetrating and root your opponent.

The possibilities would be ingenious, it adds tact and strategy to each fight - do I fire my combo straight away or do I add effects on it - while still being flexible and offering you choice: when this was finetuned and balanced and implemented at launch, their combat system would have defeated any traditional combat system around.

For now, melee combat in AoC is still better and more engaging than in most other MMO's, but it isn't as good as it could be, it's halfway there. Sadly enough, this applies to a lot of innovations and different gameplay features that the AoC team tried to implement.

As for AoC, nope, I don't play it anymore, it's been a great time but most of my friends and people I teamed up with most left over the course of time, so less reason for me to stick around. But who knows, when the new expansion really comes through with the Conan movie release that I hop back in. That is, if I'm not busy with any of the upcoming MMO's by then.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by jetface
 

For now, melee combat in AoC is still better and more engaging than in most other MMO's

Is block skill still useless and all ppl just spam combos? Or they actually made parry/block usefull?

And btw u mean better looking? or better working? cause spamming combos without well timed attacks timed parry/blocks and counter attacks like aoc's combat is, since block/parry system is crappy/dead (all prefer to spam combos since parry/block is misfuctioning) doesnt ewxactly describe a better and more engaging combat than most other mmorpgs .

Originally posted by tazarconan

Is block skill still useless and all ppl just spam combos? Or they actually made parry/block usefull?

I can only speak for myself plus it has been a while (maybe things have changed in the meantime but I don't think so), the block skill isn't useless but you have to be so goddamn good with your timing and predicting the heavy hitting skills from your opponent that I've hardly seen it used. I've never specialised in training and using it, when I wanted to block and deflect I used the spells that did something alike.

Lets not forget all our level 1 mules that were full of wealth that they decided to delete,  so putting that final nail in the coffin for you never to return to AOC.

How can an mmo company like Funcom decide that this was a good decision?.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by tazarconan

Is block skill still useless and all ppl just spam combos? Or they actually made parry/block usefull?

I can only speak for myself plus it has been a while (maybe things have changed in the meantime but I don't think so), the block skill isn't useless but you have to be so goddamn good with your timing and predicting the heavy hitting skills from your opponent that I've hardly seen it used. I've never specialised in training and using it, when I wanted to block and deflect I used the spells that did something alike.

 There was a script for block, when in pvp you would see your opponents use this script multiple times in fights. This was just one of the early pvp exploits that was never dealt with.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by DarkPony

Thanks Amana. I'll start it off:

Will they screw up again?

Let me look at my mystical, allknowing 8-Ball for the answer.

My 8 Ball states 'momentarily not available'. Darn it.

Ok, let me flip a coin for the definite surefire answer, hold on...

Even Maverick's 8 ball has gone cloud now? Is there no hope for the rest of us?

I been reading through alot of these posts, and now i have something to say

I believe Funcom needs a "Eve"

not so much of a game like Eve Online,  but a "Eve" where they arent pressured by any outside companies that are holding their chestnuts on a openfire.

at the same time

Such a project/game would have to be something they would NEED to get right, since it would more likely be a game that they would have to fund themselves; no outside investors/publishers doing the chestnut thing on them.

I believe Funcom has learned from both AO and AOC because you know i wanna call AOC, Anarchy Online's Child sometimes, because kids, if taught right, can sometimes being looked as the generation that did better than the one's before them.

So will TSW be another screw up? more than likely, they got everything going against them.

1.disgruntled former customers

2.Hard core E-peen stroking marketing team

3.stiff competition from other mmo's with strong fan followings (GW2, SWTOR)

4.EA

Funcom WILL screw up, it is in their blood, and it is what everyone will be focusing on the moment TSW launches; how much of a screwed up game it is.

in funcom's behalf, the best thing they can do is this:

Be better than the two generations before them. 

Being that TSW is made by funcom and EA is the publisher it leaves little doubt that they will bungle the launch in true funcom and EA fashion..

Perhaps the starting areas may be playable but i think we all know as we move deeper in either the game will be sparse or buggy or both as FC had hoped they could fix it before anyone got there..

I dont trust these guys to deliver anything they claim but i dont dislike them either and i really hope they dont blow it because if they do its most likely game over and lights out for funcom as an mmorpg dev....

Unless i get to test this game before it releases and it grabs me by the balls and says BUY ME! TSW will remain a watch and see game that i will likely end up bypassing on day 1 and certainly will not even consider buying until after a viable trial and a lot of player feedback is offered..

Funcom has delivered some of the worst launch and delivery disappointments to me as a gamer and they have made me a very hard first day sell without some hands on..

As i tend to believe they dream big but deliver small if at all..

This game has my full attention and is one of only 2 games i am currently eyeballing the other being GW2 which is a preorder without further proof due, but for some reason you just know anet is going to let you give it a drive down the road and let ya kick the tires to boot...

I played AoC for ~2yrs and was one of the more lucky people to not encounter heavy bugs, i found a class i love and had fun for quite a while and with only the lowest interest in that kind of pvp AoC offers it never bugged me that it was that big fail.
(I understand anyone who believed it would be that next big pvp thing to stay angry)
But for me Funcom is still lightyears behind SOE in the case of epic fails.

TSW show some really interesting ideas and only the end of the world as we know it will stop me from testing it and make me a picture of my own how it works out.

Funcom needs to deliver this time as another bad launch would hurt their reputation this time in a significant way.
They have to manage the expectations right this time and only promise what they can deliver.
They have to release a stable game and get their launch keycodes right for everyone (i belive AoC is a testbed for some of the technical aspects).
They must stick true to the roots of the game and not let it degrade into a war of nerfcycles started by the massive amount of loud vocal crybabies that pester the todays mmo communities.
They should avoid to release TSW the same time as SWTOR comes out bcs it would kill initial sales.

Imo they will deliver this time bcs they finally have learned from AoC which lefts EA as the only sort of a variable.

Funcom needs this launch to go the way everyone said Rift's did.  It would do wonders for Funcom's reputation.  Me, I had way too much fun in AO for way too long to write Funcom off, despite some annoyances.  There was nothing like it when I first played, there is nothing like it now.  Including, sadly, AoC. 

So I hope TSW launches beautifully and does well.

Make it like Rift's launch, Funcom.  Oh, but don't make it like Rift.  Most boring trial I ever played, except the first few levels in the starting area, those were okay. 

I do not want to kill ten rats!  I don't care why your NPCs think I should, I do not want to kill them, okay?  Not even if they're squirrels on fire and I'm supposed to catch them in a net instead of killing them.  Okay?  If I have to quest, make the damn storyline interesting, at least.  And leave off the fetch this, kill ten of these rodents, tell so-and-so he broke my heart and bring me back a letter he wrote declaring his undying love for me.  Or anyway, if I have to play matchmaker, then send me to the wedding afterward, and make it a Kill Bill wedding!

I agree, a trouble free, smooth launch of TSW preceded by a down-to-earth, no-testosterone-heavy PR campaign a la AoC/WAR, would do wonders for FC's rep, especially if they still keep improving and building on AoC.

I don't think that TSW will be like Rift qua gameplay though, there are too many differences for that. TSW's classless/level-less system, the Investigation mystery/puzzle missions, Sabotage missions and other stuff just makes it very different from a lot of other MMO's. Daring ideas and doing things their own way has never been the problem of the FC teams, the execution of those ideas however was where things often went wrong.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

I agree, a trouble free, smooth launch of TSW preceded by a down-to-earth, no-testosterone-heavy PR campaign a la AoC/WAR, would do wonders for FC's rep, especially if they still keep improving and building on AoC.

 

I don't think that TSW will be like Rift qua gameplay though, there are too many differences for that. TSW's classless/level-less system, the Investigation mystery/puzzle missions, Sabotage missions and other stuff just makes it very different from a lot of other MMO's. Daring ideas and doing things their own way has never been the problem of the FC teams, the execution of those ideas however was where things often went wrong.

On top of that it's likely to incorporate AoC's Combat system which is one of the most innovative on the market, at least for melee. The best realistic worlds, a persuasion to the brutal and currently a focus on the pve'ers which they didn't have on the conan launch.

I'm a bit wary of putting full confidence in them after the last launch but they certainly tick all the boxes assuming an ideal world launch. My biggest fear for the game is hardware as they still have problems for those with older systems on that engine with AoC, even for some on new rigs.

oh boy.

ok listen up.  im going to explain game development to you in a clear and understandable way.  specifically in relation to funcom.

but let me preface that by saying, anyone that lump sums a company based on overall performance is a moron.  games are only as good as their IMMEDIATE development staff.

with that said, funcom has a very good track record.  let me explain why.

any problems funcom has ever experienced with a game, was solely because of one man.  Gaute Godager.

Gaute Godager was solely responsible for anything bad that happened at ao's launch, or shadowlands.  Gaute Godager was solely responsible for anything bad that happened in AOC.

Gaute was forced out.  Left the gaming industry forever over it.

Since then funcom has really tried to put competient people in charge of development as well as finding people to repair the messes left by Gaute.  Craig Morrisson did an amazing job fixing ao, which is why they gave him AOC to fix.  Craig left means in charge of AO and hes done a great job with that as well.  Neither title is perfect but i think some of the problems with the things that Gaute left behind are basically unfixable.  I mean how do you fix a problem as big as shadowlands or the basic design of AOC for that matter.  Theres just only so much you can do ya know?

Now lets talk about TSW for a moment.  This is Ragnar Tornquist's game.  Every single last thing hes ever done for funcom has been a major win for them and something the entire gaming community has liked.  

Everyone loved the storylines, lore, and world he made for Anarchy Online.  Everyone loved The Longest Journey.  Everyone loved Dreamfall. 

Looking solely at the quality of work delivered.  Ragnar really should be considered among game designers like David Perry, Raph Koster, Yu Suzuki, or James Phinney IMO.  

Iv'e said this a million times and honestly im kind of tired of gamers not paying attention.  Based solely on the work produced, AT THE VERY LEAST, Ragnar has earned, the benefit of the doubt until launch.

since we are consolidating, will repost my opinion here too:

FC's track record:

AO - favourite mmo ever.

AoC - best graphics in an mmo ever, great story and world realization, some of the most exciting combat... too pvp focused and somewhat simplistic in character development and itemization.

Epic fail on AO launch, better but not great AoC launch - neither really matters to me as i'd rather have a good game with a rough launch than a crap game with a perfect launch.

Both MMOs FC has made have been interesting, innovative and artistically compelling.  Nothing i've seen about TSW makes me think that it's any different in this regard.  So, very much looking forward to it.

Originally posted by cerebrix

 any problems funcom has ever experienced with a game, was solely because of one man.  Gaute Godager.

 Gaute Godager was solely responsible for anything bad that happened at ao's launch, or shadowlands.  Gaute Godager was solely responsible for anything bad that happened in AOC.

 Gaute was forced out.  Left the gaming industry forever over it.

He left the game industry completely? Wow, didn't know that. I only know Gaute from AoC and I don't know if all the blame can be put on his shoulders, sounds a bit too easy to me, but he certainly had an influence on the game design and the way how AoC was presented (and hyped). Who knows what the game would've been if he had gotten an extra year to finish the game in the way he wanted, it could've maybe been a PvPer's ultimate dream. We'll never know.

Tornquist is a totally different person, and for the kind of game TSW is with the kind of setting and lore it has, I think he's the ideal figure for it.