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The Secret World Forum » General Discussion » Horizontal progression? It's here.

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31 posts found
  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/06/13 6:54:12 PM#21
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

Except its not in the slightest. Abilities are roughly half how effective your build is, the other half being if you have the correct stats to be there. No matter how many abilities you have if you do not have a decent amount of pen and hit you will not beat Polaris for example. Besides part of your "pro" in the op is that "abilities will not go up in power, we will just get more of them" which is blatently false. Besides even looking at the wheel in its current state (where many abilities have wide variation of power levels) every other game that has attempted that has run into 2 problems. Either one, they copy a ton of abilities (like they have already done) or they introduce power creep and end up having to cycle abilities through (like all of the good/popular ccgs have done, you know that same process that the developers said ages ago the system was designed like).

Well, the gear is the vertical part of the equation -- you need to have a certain gear level and stats to do a certain dungeon -- that's fine, and how it should be as you progress through the bulk of the game, with things getting progressively harder.  But once you've maxed everything, you've got a perfect system to grow horizontally -- creating challenges based on deck combinations.  You've already got the best gear, or the gear needed right?  The aux weapons for variety, perhaps unusual decks required for unusual mobs, and possibily some sort of Group wheel that must be coordinated.  So far, the balance in the deck abilities are pretty good -- only a bit of tweaking may be necessary.  Introduce some different gear that can help in certain situations.

Except they are not. Abilities scale differing amounts based on stats. Many abilities are great at lower levels but are passed by similar abilities from other weapons as your gear gets better. Three Round Burst versus Blaze is a great example. Also, there is no really noticeable increase in difficulty, merely the need for higher stat caps. Many survival builds can go to much "higher" leveled areas at low item levels and complete content just fine (its why they changed how xp works shortly after launch, so you get less xp for completing stuff higher than you should, LOL) it merely takes more time to kill thanks to glance/evade/block. I also LOL at your suggestion that a supposed great system only has an awesome amount of potential when you add completely new mechanics to it.

You are quite correct, the combat system has a TON of potential. Funcom however has no idea how to realize it though. I gave extensive feedback directly to the development team in closed beta and on the test server. I tested the raid with the dev. Every issue that are complained about I identified, and even offered different ways of fixing. They keep missing on key points because they do not know what they are doing. The raid is too complicated for a pug (without adequete tools I might add) but far too easy for any decently oragnized group. Lairs require far too much management for a pug (they get nothing out of it individually) and far too boring for an organized group. Most of the instance content does not even semi requre thinking thanks to how easy it is to just flatly overpower. You cannot mix and match parts of different levels of difficulty and expect things to go smoothly.

I don't know if you can say that the same company that created a system that has a ton of potential is not the same company to realize it.  I'd think they understand it better than anyone, even you or me as armchair developers.  And honestly, who can know fully what outcome there can be without the full playerbase playing the content?  It's not something that can be tested -- they can ultimately only release it and learn.  I've thought more about how to work this combat system than most other games I've played.

Merely creating something does not mean they fully understand it or how to utilize it. Einstein spent the rest of his life attempting to discredit string theory when it sprang fully formed from his own hypothisis. Besides, Funcom did not even create it. It was taken almost whole cloth from Magic The Gathering. I mean the entire system boils down to math plus rock/paper/scissors. There really are not any truly "synergystic" effects in the abilties themselves thanks to having very few actual scalers, and what scalers are there are generally additive rather than multiplicitive.

Now honestly, I get it. You love the game and are trying your damnedest to see it succeed and grow. Thats fine. No matter how big a turd anything is there is always a chunk of people who will love it. It is the way of human nature. Whats not ok is completely misrepresenting how awesome the extremely flawed, rather mediocre overall title is to get people to do that. In the end you are actually doing more harm than good.

Actually not my reason at all, or maybe just a part of the reason.  I have a huge interest in game systems, and TSW is the game I have seen closest to realizing horizontal progression -- I've yet to see something skill based work well in the MMO space, and the leveling/gear focused grind is something I won't miss saying goodbye to.  And I think the discussion/debate is worthwhile and interesting.  I do like the game, would like to see more players, but I'm not going to worry too much about people if it's not their cup of tea.  Or whether you have given up on it or not.

Horizontal progression is a pipedream. The only thing it leads to is hybridization (as it has with TSW) which from a player standpoint does not actually gain you much unless its actively designed around, which Funcom has not done. Its the same mistake that Trion made with Rift when they nerfed its dungeons shortly after release by lowering the amount of damage mobs did so you did not have to bring support. More damage is always better. It drastically reduces the amount of healing required, and drops the chances of rng and/or mistakes from causing wipes. In TSW thanks to how stats scale you can get more healing than you ever needed and still bring significant dps as a healer, and similar with a tank, which makes encounters much easier than they should be. As someone who "studies combat systems" this flaw should be obvious to you. There is no reason to bring an off healer, or an offtank, when those roles are already covered thanks to stats. What good is having everyone in your group able to heal tank when you only ever need a single person to do it?

In closed beta there was a time when different fights actually required an offtank, when you needed more than  a single person healing, and that was before they nerfed ar! They toned it all down to attempt to entice the masses. What we have left is a complete mess where you CAN do stuff, but there is no reason to. I stopped getting gear at 10.2 (10.4 weps) because there is no reason to get better. It scales poorly, and everything is more than completeable in that level.

 

Originally posted by Po_gg
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Po_gg
Originally posted by jimdandy26
You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

Not everyone's interested in competitve, best, elite, über mode...

I, for example like to messing with the wheel, assemble interesting or funny decks and playing with them. Not viable? Sometimes :) Not competitve? Most of the times. But who cares? It's fun. Not to mention I rather help random pugs in normal with my scrappy but fun deck, than sitting in Agartha and listen to those elitist p***s spamming 18/18, etc :)

Gimping yourself to artificially add challenge is not the hallmark of a decently designed system.

I didn't ment it for the challenge, maybe I  wrote it wrong. I just hate gear grind, so I don't want to waste months just to increase the decimal number on my 10.x gear up one notch. Especially not if the only reward is e-peen and the same dungeons on very nightmare hard mode. (it's not only TSW, I refuse to grind gear in every mmo).

So, wheel unlocked, best decks saved (though FC could fix the damn gear management...), what's left? Replay missions, roleplay, help lower buddies and pugs ... and goofing with the wheel. That's what I do nowadays :)

Sure. The first 20 times you do missions (the missions you like atleast) is fun. When you can complete them without even looking at your map or following markers there isn't anything left. The game has no carrot, and I am not going to sit and replay the same missions I have 50 times when there are so many other new games to play. Between the actual released games which no one ever has enough time to finish that are worth playing, and the large number of beta titles available it is simply not worth it.

 

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

3/06/13 7:09:10 PM#22
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

thank you dear messiah for enlighting us about features TSW MIGHT have in the future... Does it mean it will have them? No.

Is it likely they'll make a boss with purpose of denying success just because you have a certain build? Probably not.

You can theory craft all day long, it'll get you nowhere. 

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

 
OP  3/07/13 11:36:10 AM#23
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

thank you dear messiah for enlighting us about features TSW MIGHT have in the future... Does it mean it will have them? No.

Is it likely they'll make a boss with purpose of denying success just because you have a certain build? Probably not.

You can theory craft all day long, it'll get you nowhere. 

Making no pretenses about messiahood, thanks.  ;)

And you may be right -- they may not code a boss specifically to beat certain cookie-cutters, but they can certainly make ones that will force you to think on your feet, possibly change mid-stream, or have the team change roles.  There's nothing in the system as it stands today to prevent this.  And there's the normal and elite modes that can be an easier time.  It's the nightmare runners who want the challenge, why not do it?  And there is a sizable group who like/love the theorycrafting in TSW; I don't do it as much as others, but I DO like tweaking.  

And who are we to predict what the devs will or won't do? 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

3/07/13 11:52:03 AM#24

I really like the game, but I don't see it as horizontal progression.  You earn more powerful skills as you move out toward the edge of the wheel.  There are gear tiers with the best gear locked behind group content.  That's pretty vertical in my world.

I don't mind that because the entire focus of the game isn't on that progression.  In a very similar vein to GW2 the progression is there but not really the primary focus and you can be effective in most places without having BiS.

The only disappointing thing about this game and GW2, for me, has been that what little progression they offer is still firmly locked behind contrived group content.  That has been done to death and veneering over it in either game doesn't really hide the very game design philosophies they're supposedly trying to break from.  Whatever you like to do in the game should offer a path to the nicest shinies.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

 
OP  3/07/13 11:55:29 AM#25
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by jimdandy26
You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

Except its not in the slightest. Abilities are roughly half how effective your build is, the other half being if you have the correct stats to be there. No matter how many abilities you have if you do not have a decent amount of pen and hit you will not beat Polaris for example. Besides part of your "pro" in the op is that "abilities will not go up in power, we will just get more of them" which is blatently false. Besides even looking at the wheel in its current state (where many abilities have wide variation of power levels) every other game that has attempted that has run into 2 problems. Either one, they copy a ton of abilities (like they have already done) or they introduce power creep and end up having to cycle abilities through (like all of the good/popular ccgs have done, you know that same process that the developers said ages ago the system was designed like).

Well, the gear is the vertical part of the equation -- you need to have a certain gear level and stats to do a certain dungeon -- that's fine, and how it should be as you progress through the bulk of the game, with things getting progressively harder.  But once you've maxed everything, you've got a perfect system to grow horizontally -- creating challenges based on deck combinations.  You've already got the best gear, or the gear needed right?  The aux weapons for variety, perhaps unusual decks required for unusual mobs, and possibily some sort of Group wheel that must be coordinated.  So far, the balance in the deck abilities are pretty good -- only a bit of tweaking may be necessary.  Introduce some different gear that can help in certain situations.

Except they are not. Abilities scale differing amounts based on stats. Many abilities are great at lower levels but are passed by similar abilities from other weapons as your gear gets better. Three Round Burst versus Blaze is a great example. Also, there is no really noticeable increase in difficulty, merely the need for higher stat caps. Many survival builds can go to much "higher" leveled areas at low item levels and complete content just fine (its why they changed how xp works shortly after launch, so you get less xp for completing stuff higher than you should, LOL) it merely takes more time to kill thanks to glance/evade/block. I also LOL at your suggestion that a supposed great system only has an awesome amount of potential when you add completely new mechanics to it.

Not talking about new mechanics, I'm talking about using the mechanics that are already there in different ways.  As the game grows, new challenges will need to be built in without the lazy fallback of gear grind.  You can extend the mechanic in new ways as well that will dovetail nicely with the existing system as well -- a Group Wheel is an interesting idea, but hey, it may take awhile, and the portential doesn't depend on it.  

You are quite correct, the combat system has a TON of potential. Funcom however has no idea how to realize it though. I gave extensive feedback directly to the development team in closed beta and on the test server. I tested the raid with the dev. Every issue that are complained about I identified, and even offered different ways of fixing. They keep missing on key points because they do not know what they are doing. The raid is too complicated for a pug (without adequete tools I might add) but far too easy for any decently oragnized group. Lairs require far too much management for a pug (they get nothing out of it individually) and far too boring for an organized group. Most of the instance content does not even semi requre thinking thanks to how easy it is to just flatly overpower. You cannot mix and match parts of different levels of difficulty and expect things to go smoothly.

I don't know if you can say that the same company that created a system that has a ton of potential is not the same company to realize it.  I'd think they understand it better than anyone, even you or me as armchair developers.  And honestly, who can know fully what outcome there can be without the full playerbase playing the content?  It's not something that can be tested -- they can ultimately only release it and learn.  I've thought more about how to work this combat system than most other games I've played.

Merely creating something does not mean they fully understand it or how to utilize it. Einstein spent the rest of his life attempting to discredit string theory when it sprang fully formed from his own hypothisis. Besides, Funcom did not even create it. It was taken almost whole cloth from Magic The Gathering. I mean the entire system boils down to math plus rock/paper/scissors. There really are not any truly "synergystic" effects in the abilties themselves thanks to having very few actual scalers, and what scalers are there are generally additive rather than multiplicitive.

Wow, Funcom and Einstein in the same paragraph -- that's a first!  ;).  The fact that PvP builds are changing constantly to counter new builds players create is a bit more interesting that rock/papers/scissors.  Just talking to someone the other night who was going to spring a new build as a surprise.  To me, having a system where no one build works at all times in all cases is a bit of genius -- I have to believe Funcom will USE it.

Now honestly, I get it. You love the game and are trying your damnedest to see it succeed and grow. Thats fine. No matter how big a turd anything is there is always a chunk of people who will love it. It is the way of human nature. Whats not ok is completely misrepresenting how awesome the extremely flawed, rather mediocre overall title is to get people to do that. In the end you are actually doing more harm than good.

Actually not my reason at all, or maybe just a part of the reason.  I have a huge interest in game systems, and TSW is the game I have seen closest to realizing horizontal progression -- I've yet to see something skill based work well in the MMO space, and the leveling/gear focused grind is something I won't miss saying goodbye to.  And I think the discussion/debate is worthwhile and interesting.  I do like the game, would like to see more players, but I'm not going to worry too much about people if it's not their cup of tea.  Or whether you have given up on it or not.

Horizontal progression is a pipedream. The only thing it leads to is hybridization (as it has with TSW) which from a player standpoint does not actually gain you much unless its actively designed around, which Funcom has not done. Its the same mistake that Trion made with Rift when they nerfed its dungeons shortly after release by lowering the amount of damage mobs did so you did not have to bring support. More damage is always better. It drastically reduces the amount of healing required, and drops the chances of rng and/or mistakes from causing wipes. In TSW thanks to how stats scale you can get more healing than you ever needed and still bring significant dps as a healer, and similar with a tank, which makes encounters much easier than they should be. As someone who "studies combat systems" this flaw should be obvious to you. There is no reason to bring an off healer, or an offtank, when those roles are already covered thanks to stats. What good is having everyone in your group able to heal tank when you only ever need a single person to do it?

Your turn to read more carefully -- I said I have an "interest in game systems;" I do not profess to be a mathmetician or the ultimate theorycrafter (or even the messiah as another poster jibed).  I just know that when a game is challenging me with a build I've been using for awhile, and then being forced figure out what I need to switch out, what I am doing wrong in my fight, that it's pretty damn cool. The game is not "hard" in the sense that all challenges can be overcome, it's "hard" in the sense that it forces me to think about what I am doing, how I am approaching the mob, whether I have missed a clue, or whether my build or team is doing what it needs to do for the situation.  I've got this giant pool of abilities -- 525 -- but what's the right mix?  THAT's where the horizontal progression is, and I don't think it's a pipedream. 

In closed beta there was a time when different fights actually required an offtank, when you needed more than  a single person healing, and that was before they nerfed ar! They toned it all down to attempt to entice the masses. What we have left is a complete mess where you CAN do stuff, but there is no reason to. I stopped getting gear at 10.2 (10.4 weps) because there is no reason to get better. It scales poorly, and everything is more than completeable in that level.

I do believe that's why the devs have stated they'd like to eliminate the gear progresion going forward and focus on the horizontal.  They have the tools; I'd like to believe they are serious.  People bash Funcom alot, but one thing they don't generally say is that Funcom doesn't have the balls to do new stuff and push the envelope.  Maybe execution isn't always perfect, but they do tend to go for different. 

 

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1369

3/07/13 12:15:06 PM#26

This thread reeks of people who refuse to make their own builds and just copy the 1337 builds.

 

OP maybe more horizontal progression will be there in the future, hopefully.

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

 
OP  3/08/13 10:21:34 AM#27
Originally posted by Mardukk

This thread reeks of people who refuse to make their own builds and just copy the 1337 builds.

 

OP maybe more horizontal progression will be there in the future, hopefully.

Lots of talk about all this right now in the PvP forums.  Discussion of FOTM builds and adapting:  

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=67990

Players are so used to using cookie-cutter builds off the web that it's quite an adjustment to go to figuring interesting and different builds.  In TSW's case, I think the PvPers are ahead of the curve over the raiders, simply because the "mobs" (other players) can switch it up at any time.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/08/13 10:43:11 AM#28
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by Mardukk

This thread reeks of people who refuse to make their own builds and just copy the 1337 builds.

 

OP maybe more horizontal progression will be there in the future, hopefully.

Lots of talk about all this right now in the PvP forums.  Discussion of FOTM builds and adapting:  

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=67990

Players are so used to using cookie-cutter builds off the web that it's quite an adjustment to go to figuring interesting and different builds.  In TSW's case, I think the PvPers are ahead of the curve over the raiders, simply because the "mobs" (other players) can switch it up at any time.

You mean the game that took its combat system from Magic has a similar metagame?! Really?! Even then its a less involved meta than even the likes of LoL offers thanks to how it subs in champs on a much quicker basis. Really the only major changes to the meta have come from the devs flatly nerfing abilities instead of fixing them.

Also, I started to breakdown your block of bullshit above and honestly its not worth the effort. I will retort your statement that there is nothing stopping them from doing what you propose as being amazing uses of the existing system, and that is their current design philosophy. Their 10 man lair quests are easily 4 manned without being close to optimized and they are plenty fine with that. They are plenty fine with completely broken gear (the elite proc helms for example) and easily overgearing/exploiting (when the bosses themselves are not bugged, I mean hell they completely disabled one of the raid bosses abilities because it was bugged and they could not get it fixed before they said it would be launched) the "nightmare" difficulty content. Also, as opposed to your "they go out of their way to be different" then why was if repeatedly stated by the devs that part of the reason the game did so poorly is because it was "too different". I mean joel himself parroted that everywhere for near 2 months!

I liked the game for what it was, I played the hell out of it and in my mind "beat" it, and I will likely go back and hit up the dlc when it finally hits, but the game is mediocre at best due mostly to its design intent. Even going past all of the bugs the designers really have no grasp on how to meet the needs of the different demographics they are attempting to appeal to. The appalling changes to the pvp system in an attempt to actually get it into shape as another shining example. Look at what Joel did with that on Aoc, and you really think its going to get better here? Seriously?

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

 
OP  3/08/13 4:41:24 PM#29
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by Mardukk

This thread reeks of people who refuse to make their own builds and just copy the 1337 builds.

 

OP maybe more horizontal progression will be there in the future, hopefully.

Lots of talk about all this right now in the PvP forums.  Discussion of FOTM builds and adapting:  

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=67990

Players are so used to using cookie-cutter builds off the web that it's quite an adjustment to go to figuring interesting and different builds.  In TSW's case, I think the PvPers are ahead of the curve over the raiders, simply because the "mobs" (other players) can switch it up at any time.

You mean the game that took its combat system from Magic has a similar metagame?! Really?! Even then its a less involved meta than even the likes of LoL offers thanks to how it subs in champs on a much quicker basis. Really the only major changes to the meta have come from the devs flatly nerfing abilities instead of fixing them.

Also, I started to breakdown your block of bullshit above and honestly its not worth the effort. I will retort your statement that there is nothing stopping them from doing what you propose as being amazing uses of the existing system, and that is their current design philosophy. Their 10 man lair quests are easily 4 manned without being close to optimized and they are plenty fine with that. They are plenty fine with completely broken gear (the elite proc helms for example) and easily overgearing/exploiting (when the bosses themselves are not bugged, I mean hell they completely disabled one of the raid bosses abilities because it was bugged and they could not get it fixed before they said it would be launched) the "nightmare" difficulty content. Also, as opposed to your "they go out of their way to be different" then why was if repeatedly stated by the devs that part of the reason the game did so poorly is because it was "too different". I mean joel himself parroted that everywhere for near 2 months!

I liked the game for what it was, I played the hell out of it and in my mind "beat" it, and I will likely go back and hit up the dlc when it finally hits, but the game is mediocre at best due mostly to its design intent. Even going past all of the bugs the designers really have no grasp on how to meet the needs of the different demographics they are attempting to appeal to. The appalling changes to the pvp system in an attempt to actually get it into shape as another shining example. Look at what Joel did with that on Aoc, and you really think its going to get better here? Seriously?

I'm not familiar with AoC PvP, but if you look at the world as static with people never learning and growing and changing, you have a very different view of the world than I do.  My understanding is that AoC is much improved today.  Although I have just dabbled in that game, I like it.  But all MMOs are contantly evolving things, and from my perspective, improving.  The games are possibly more niche due to some design decisions made, but I'm fine with that, whatever Joel said or didn't say.  The ability wheel is still a great thing, and can still be used to its potential even if imperfect/human developers have not yet fully realized everything about it.

Look, you obviously have delved deep into the endgame build stuff and are perhaps a little upset that all your design advice has not been heeded.  I've also played since beta and have a very different outlook and see all kinds of potential in the system as it stands and what it could be -- I enjoy playing it; I have fun and love the build variatons.  

So we're obviously looking at it from two very different angles.  Let's just agree to disagree, eh?

  Cryseyde

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 38

3/09/13 12:50:29 AM#30
Originally posted by jimdandy26

You mean the game that took its combat system from Magic has a similar metagame?! Really?! Even then its a less involved meta than even the likes of LoL offers thanks to how it subs in champs on a much quicker basis. Really the only major changes to the meta have come from the devs flatly nerfing abilities instead of fixing them.

Also, I started to breakdown your block of bullshit above and honestly its not worth the effort. I will retort your statement that there is nothing stopping them from doing what you propose as being amazing uses of the existing system, and that is their current design philosophy. Their 10 man lair quests are easily 4 manned without being close to optimized and they are plenty fine with that. They are plenty fine with completely broken gear (the elite proc helms for example) and easily overgearing/exploiting (when the bosses themselves are not bugged, I mean hell they completely disabled one of the raid bosses abilities because it was bugged and they could not get it fixed before they said it would be launched) the "nightmare" difficulty content. Also, as opposed to your "they go out of their way to be different" then why was if repeatedly stated by the devs that part of the reason the game did so poorly is because it was "too different". I mean joel himself parroted that everywhere for near 2 months!

I liked the game for what it was, I played the hell out of it and in my mind "beat" it, and I will likely go back and hit up the dlc when it finally hits, but the game is mediocre at best due mostly to its design intent. Even going past all of the bugs the designers really have no grasp on how to meet the needs of the different demographics they are attempting to appeal to. The appalling changes to the pvp system in an attempt to actually get it into shape as another shining example. Look at what Joel did with that on Aoc, and you really think its going to get better here? Seriously?

 

Ok, I don't normally post in these forums, but this is factually incorrect. The lair missions are designed for groups of 5 people. Not 10. There is a lair raid in the future, but right now only one of three missions can actually be completed by raid members. The other two have objectives that must be completed by someone in each group. Only the group with the person who completed the objective gets credit, so I don't see why you would think this was designed for 10 people. That you still get credit while in the raid group is a nice change for me from other games, but it does not mean that it was meant for 10s. It was meant for 5s. For that matter, it wasn't meant for 5 people in epics. Those mobs drop blues. It was meant for green-geared 5-mans.

 

Also false in your statement is that Joel was responsible for the PvP changes. He wasn't, so any other title he worked on is irrelevant. They're on their third (I think) PvP dev and he's leaving later this month. If the game were a PvP title - well it was never billed as one. Also, the "appalling" changes? To what? Fusang? Sure, one board out of three is broken. Guess what - Tim Donks (the current PvP developer) fixed the issue preventing the other games from happening at all and changed the third game so that it happens as much or more than the other. That's right, after 8 months I finally get to play El Dorado because I don't have to sit in the queue for hours. It pops after 20 minutes (usually sooner), a comparable wait time to Stonehenge.

 

Honestly, if you're going to bash the game, go for it. It's definitely not for everyone. But don't do it with untruths. That's just silly.

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

 
OP  3/13/13 4:54:48 PM#31
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