Trending Games | World of Warcraft | Guild Wars 2 | Shards | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,905,359 Users Online:0
Games:757  Posts:6,293,765
Funcom | Play Now
MMORPG | Genre:Real Life | Status:Final  (rel 07/03/12)  | Pub:Funcom
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download,Retail | Retail Price:$30.00 | Pay Type:Hybrid | Monthly Fee:n/a
System Req: PC | Out of date info? Let us know!

The Secret World Forum » General Discussion » Just going to say it: I wish they had made the game 'dumber'

4 Pages « 1 2 3 4 » Search
74 posts found
  ashleymorrow

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 176

 
OP  2/14/13 3:33:09 PM#21
Originally posted by L0C0Man
 

Well, I guess the "dumb" mode are the pre-made decks. You can read the description and tells you exactly what each does (tank, ranged damage, melee damage and so on), and points which skills you need for that deck. Of course, you won't be optimal for the role, but you will be able to fullfill it easily.

Of course, you can also look at other peoples builds in sites like these: http://wordpress.tswguides.com/tsw-build-page/ and replicate them.

 

Yeah I pretty much go with the premade decks and then substitute a few of my favorites. I've read some guides, but most people aren't going to do that. I think the low player numbers are the primary symptom of the truth of that statement, because TSW:

1) Has great stories.

2) Great graphics.

3) Great VO work.

4) Great quests.

5) The best overall ambiance of any MMO to date.

So while it is true that there wasn't much advertising, I don't think that excuse holds much water. I think TSW's low numbers and iffy future are because they did not make the game more mainstream. If the game closes then we all lose, both those of us who love it and the player who has yet to hear of it.

As someone stated above, perhaps it simply does need to be more intutive. And I don't see why a 'dumb mode' or 'auto pilot' couldn't co-exist with the existing version for those who do like to crunch numbers. 

But if I had to go back in time and was able to cast the pivotal ballot on a theory crafting heavy game or a more traditional MMO, I would say traditional because what I love about TSW would not be affected and it would have, in my opinion, a lot more players and thus a lot more steady content.

 

Edit: I realize my list of 1 to 5 "greats" above is subjective. If you disagree that is certainly your right, but that's how I feel.

 

  ashleymorrow

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 176

 
OP  2/14/13 3:40:46 PM#22
Originally posted by Fendel84M
I agree! I also wish they had made the combat a little more actiony. It feels kinda clunky to spam the 1 key while moving around. Its like they are half way between action and tab targetting. I really want to either put 1(my builder) as an auto attack, or get full reticle combat with left click functioning as the number 1 attack while in that mode.

 

I seem to be one of the few people who really has no problem with the combat. Maybe that's because I'm more into RP, exploring, what have you. PvP has never been a draw for me and I gave up trying to get into the battlegrounds in TSW: I can usually play for no more than an hour at a time and I just never seem to get in.

But, I hear they are working on the combat and the combat animations, so don't lose hope. I just came back from a 2 month break and they had made a lot of positive changes. They really are trying, they really do listen, they do care, I just get the distinct impression that they have too little manpower to enact all the changes they want as soon as they want.

  Ortwig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1067

2/14/13 7:23:43 PM#23
Originally posted by ashleymorrow

I really like The Secret World. Certain elements of it are superb, easily the best by my standards in the crowded MMO market. The lush environments, the great stories, the horror elements and modern day setting really appeal to me. The dark humor is sharp as a razor.

But at time, TSW seems like work.  I read and reread the active and passive skills I'm using, trying to figure out if any of the fourteen I have slotted are useless or if another of the what, over five hundred skills in the game, would be better? Do we really need 500 + skills? All this time reading about theory crafting... I just want to play a game, not study. But because the game is so merciless, you really do have to sink time into it. Some people enjoy this, but I'm not one of them.

The loot is rarely someting I truly enjoy getting, because for every plus to one stat(s) there is usually a minus or two involved as well. So now I have to look at my character stats, try and figure out if this will make my character stronger or weaker or have little effect. Again, time not spent playing the game. I truly enjoy it when I find an item that is all Pluses! Those moments are rare though.

I believe this learning curve is really the one element that stopped TSW from being a runaway success. Because it has so much going for it. It oozes charm and personality. It is like no other game on the market. Its strengths are numerous. 

I wish they had a "dumb mode". An option for people like me who just want to play a game, not crunch numbers or look into optimum builds or what have you. I could pick something like "Fighter" and the next screen would say "OK, do you want to use guns, swords or magic?" And from there XP I earned would go into unlocking the best actives and passives. They would be automatically equipped for me.

This is not the game that many of TSW's fans want, I understand that. I am in no way looking down on people who do enjoy the statistics. I just wish it felt less like a chore at times. 

One of the more constructive pieces of criticism I've seen lately, and very reasonable. :)  

Like others have said, the starter decks and many of the decks posted on websites and forums are a quick way to get going without much theorycrafting, but your point is well taken.  It would almost be nice, if when, picking an ability, you'd get a pop-up that gave you a bit more information about the ability and possibly what kind of role it works well with (tanks, dps, whatever), and possibly gave you some feedback as to which other abilities would work well with it.  Just a little bit of hand-holding and guidance as you pick through the wheel.  I could see a mod maybe being written....

Another way they could make it easier is to offer a series of video tutorials on some of the more advanced aspects of the deck building system.  All things that could ease people into the system a bit.  

The starter decks are the shallow end of the pool, but the system does make it easy to get in over your head, too.  I enjoy the difficulty myself, but I'm not opposed to making the system easier to understand.

  ashleymorrow

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/10
Posts: 176

 
OP  2/14/13 8:09:41 PM#24
I always enjoy your posts, Ortwig. Thanks for being a constructive and positive person.
  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3104

I actually still like MMORPGs

2/14/13 8:22:17 PM#25
I think the game should have been designed and marketed a little differently too. Should have been b2p from the start. Should have been more action oriented and not marketed as a traditional mmo but more of a modern day RPG that happens to be online.

They should have focused on the story and gameplay and let the mmo parts be more of a bonus. I think it would have went over better.

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

2/15/13 3:28:57 AM#26

Hell NO.

The market is over saturated with "dumb" MMOs. TSW is carving its niche and so far has a fantastic community, let the game keep up its philosophy.

By the way if you don´t want to figure out an own character build you can still aim for the decks.

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

2/15/13 5:28:26 AM#27

Age of Conan held your hand in a ridiculous way, not allowing you to set foot out of Tortage until you fully understood the game.  TSW has gone the other way, little to no instruction.    That can work too as long as you are made to understand the storyline. 

 

TSW ... what storyline?  I picked a Templar this time. Got told come to London or not...you have some weird powers.   We are Templars but not 'the Templars', we have demons locked up in the basement that you can shoot, stab or use magic on.  Fill your boots.  Now we are sending you on some errands... And the whole point to this is what? I have no idea.

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

2/15/13 8:45:46 AM#28
Originally posted by fallenlords

Age of Conan held your hand in a ridiculous way, not allowing you to set foot out of Tortage until you fully understood the game. 

BS. You could find and read the smugglers note and talk to him to get you out of Tortage early. Not even necessary to finish the destiny quest. Again, you just don´t know what you´re talking about

 TSW ... what storyline?  [..] And the whole point to this is what? I have no idea.

 Yeah, well, your problem if you can´t follow the very well written storyline, it´s not the game´s fault.

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  gwei1984

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/22/12
Posts: 374

2/15/13 10:30:06 AM#29
Originally posted by fallenlords

TSW ... what storyline?  I picked a Templar this time. Got told come to London or not...you have some weird powers.   We are Templars but not 'the Templars', we have demons locked up in the basement that you can shoot, stab or use magic on.  Fill your boots.  Now we are sending you on some errands... And the whole point to this is what? I have no idea.

You never listened to any of the things which were said to you, didnt you?

There are so many games out there, where you get spoonfed your shallow average high-fantasy-bad-dragon-story. Try to actually read and listen to the people in the game. This is just more than black and white; princess and thief; elves and orcs. If you dont like that, stop writing utterly wrong "facts" in forums and move on.

Let the people, who want, play a game where you actually have to think, try out things and learn things for yourself.

Hodor!

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

2/15/13 3:06:13 PM#30
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by fallenlords

Age of Conan held your hand in a ridiculous way, not allowing you to set foot out of Tortage until you fully understood the game. 

BS. You could find and read the smugglers note and talk to him to get you out of Tortage early. Not even necessary to finish the destiny quest. Again, you just don´t know what you´re talking about

Yes you could but then you couldn't finish the destiny quest which was the main storyline.  You could also get into Tortage bypassing the guard if you knew how.  But there was no point.

 TSW ... what storyline?  [..] And the whole point to this is what? I have no idea.

 Yeah, well, your problem if you can´t follow the very well written storyline, it´s not the game´s fault.

Well written storyline?  You have powers...unexplained.. go to London meet with this secret society ... no explanation... then do what they say... no explanation.  By the way pick a weapon any weapon which is going to now be bound to you.  Try it out on some demons we keep here for target practice ... where or should I say which hell did they come from? Rolled a Templar I have no chuffing idea what is going on or why I took over somebodies bodies had some powers, which I lost and now I have to go to Kingsmouth not to save people but to be rather bored shooting Zombies for some Cowboy who wants me to delibertly set them on fire and set off car alarms, for no loot but just  XP by the looks of it. Yeah great story loving it... <yawn>

 

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/15/13 3:08:21 PM#31
Simple or not, and this is shallow, I was so dam ugly I could not enjoy my character.  I mean I had no choice but to make a hideous mirror-cracker.  She was foul.  Ruined it for me.  
  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

2/15/13 3:10:45 PM#32
Originally posted by gwei1984

You never listened to any of the things which were said to you, didnt you?

No totally bored by the emotionless voice acting.

There are so many games out there, where you get spoonfed your shallow average high-fantasy-bad-dragon-story. Try to actually read and listen to the people in the game. This is just more than black and white; princess and thief; elves and orcs. If you dont like that, stop writing utterly wrong "facts" in forums and move on.

A game is something to play and enjoy, it's an escape.  Not something I should need to study or use too many brain cells on.  Entertainment is the word my friend. Don't accuse me of writing incorrect facts unless you want back that up with something more than hot air.

Let the people, who want, play a game where you actually have to think, try out things and learn things for yourself.

I have no problem with people who like the game, where I have is problem is with people who like the game trying to convince people who don't like the game they are somehow wrong.  That the criticism leveled at the game is not justified.

 

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 950

2/15/13 3:32:15 PM#33

I playing TSW in  ,, dumber ,, mode

I love setting,world,back story...I dont care for VA,cut scenes,deep stories,dislike puzzles(thanks God on google), i playing TSW as an mmorpg focused on grouping  no matter for what...... yestaday i am in first time use sword & rocked luncher in game(have spend 850+ hours on playing game,ability wheel on 89,9%) ...at  final I  still enjoying  so far from boring.

 

 

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Ortwig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1067

2/15/13 7:47:12 PM#34
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Simple or not, and this is shallow, I was so dam ugly I could not enjoy my character.  I mean I had no choice but to make a hideous mirror-cracker.  She was foul.  Ruined it for me.  

I'm playing a dude, but walking around I see a ton of pretty female toons.  I guess some people found some good combos?  I suppose it's all subjective.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6182

2/15/13 10:32:14 PM#35

Isn't this kind of one of the main parts of the RPG genre?

 

I mean if you want an adventure game that is cool.  Any to some extent a good RPG has many aspects of a good adventure game.  And the same can be said for a hack n slash or beat em up (to a lesser degree).

 

But if you take out all wealth of options then you really aren't playing much of an RPG.  I play RPGS specifically because I like the options where there are many interesting choices to make.

 

I will say that secret world has a number of redundant skills and some skills are clearly inferior to others.  So it could do with some clean up etc.

 

I will also say that MMORPGs have become way way too much about creating optimal builds.  I have been playing Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup the last couple months (this is a rogue-like not an MMO although you can play online).  Now that game has permadeath and precedural generation so MMOs tend to be far more static.

But what i have come to realize is that although you can plan out an optimal build in Crawl whether or not you actually GET that optimal build can be a very risky bet and since there is perma death and a finite ability to grind try to wait around on trying to find the right spell book to complete your build might just wind up making you weak in the early game and getting you killed by an ogre hiding around the corner.  Whereas if you had adapted to what you FOUND rather adamantly adhering to what you PLANNED you are more likely to win.  Perhaps later on after getting very strong and stashing alot of items you may readjust your character towards a build you really like but due to the nature of the game: Randomness, possible destruction of resources etc.  You still may not really be able to do this. 

For example you can only memorize so many spells based on level and spellcasting skill.  You may wind up memorizing a few spells you only wanted to help out with mid game things and would idealy use Scrolls of Amensia to forget a few later one.  But a) you need to find the spellbook for the other spells and b) you need to find the scrolls and c) anytime you hit with a fire attack there is a chance of your scrolls being permanently destroyed.  So you have to think how likely am I to find the spell I want?  How likely am I to be able to rearrange 20 spells level worth of spells?  Will I find an amulet of conservation to protect my scrolls? 

These questions get answer dynamically in the game.  If you find an amulet of conservation very early you may wind up memorizing many spells on the assumption you will keep more scrolls than on other play throughs.  If you find no amulet and are getting unlucky on scrolls of amnesia you have a very tough choice to make.  Often the smarter choice is to take what you are given and make the most of it.

This dynamic of adaption has made MMORPGs stiltled and static and thus people stare at this skill screen trying to shave pennies off the dollar of their character build for hours at a time.  The options in Crawl are at least as varied as in the Secret World yet I do not sit there and attempt to absorb all possible build options in one sit down and then design the ultimate thing and its a waste of time to do so.  You do of course need to make the most out of everything you get and eck out as much effectiveness as possible far more the Secret World as the game is far harder and frankly quite sadistic sometimes.

 

See the real problems, I think, is not the options or even complexity so much as almost all MMORPGs are simply an exercise in min/max'ing.  And its not that min/max'ing is bad in fact I rather enjoy it.  The problem is that there is never any interesting choice as whether to do so.  In an MMORPG the answer to "Should I min/max accodring to some pre-defined build?" is always always yes.  In Crawl the answer is "It depends."

 

MMORPGs need to find a way to make the answer also be "It depends" at least for a large portion of the game. 

In crawl there is what is called the extended game you need 3 runs to attempt to win the game, but can achieve 15 runes in various dungeon branches.  Generally the extended game is where people often but not always seriously min/max and flesh out some sort of build.  This is mainly because if you go through enough branches you are fairly likely to find a good portion of whatever special loot you would have needed for a build.  However it is often the case that in order to get to say 7 or 8 runes while you may not have the most optimalist build that could ever be, you have cobbled together some sort of very effective build such that grinding out one more +1 on your sword is a rather silly thing to be doing or even lacking a rather powerful spell, while substantial, really deosn't mean much in that you have defeated some of the harder things in the game and the real test for doing a 15 runer is actually playing the game (making smart decisions, knowing when to run etc.) not reaching 100% optimality.

So I am not saying make it really hard to achieve an optimal build nor am I saying have no end-game where people try to min max.  What I am saying is the meat of the games needs to present a more interesting choice than pure optimality seeking. 

 

  Ortwig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1067

2/16/13 10:42:25 AM#36
Originally posted by gestalt11

Isn't this kind of one of the main parts of the RPG genre?

I mean if you want an adventure game that is cool.  Any to some extent a good RPG has many aspects of a good adventure game.  And the same can be said for a hack n slash or beat em up (to a lesser degree).

But if you take out all wealth of options then you really aren't playing much of an RPG.  I play RPGS specifically because I like the options where there are many interesting choices to make.

I will say that secret world has a number of redundant skills and some skills are clearly inferior to others.  So it could do with some clean up etc.

I will also say that MMORPGs have become way way too much about creating optimal builds.  I have been playing Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup the last couple months (this is a rogue-like not an MMO although you can play online).  Now that game has permadeath and precedural generation so MMOs tend to be far more static.

But what i have come to realize is that although you can plan out an optimal build in Crawl whether or not you actually GET that optimal build can be a very risky bet and since there is perma death and a finite ability to grind try to wait around on trying to find the right spell book to complete your build might just wind up making you weak in the early game and getting you killed by an ogre hiding around the corner.  Whereas if you had adapted to what you FOUND rather adamantly adhering to what you PLANNED you are more likely to win.  Perhaps later on after getting very strong and stashing alot of items you may readjust your character towards a build you really like but due to the nature of the game: Randomness, possible destruction of resources etc.  You still may not really be able to do this. 

For example you can only memorize so many spells based on level and spellcasting skill.  You may wind up memorizing a few spells you only wanted to help out with mid game things and would idealy use Scrolls of Amensia to forget a few later one.  But a) you need to find the spellbook for the other spells and b) you need to find the scrolls and c) anytime you hit with a fire attack there is a chance of your scrolls being permanently destroyed.  So you have to think how likely am I to find the spell I want?  How likely am I to be able to rearrange 20 spells level worth of spells?  Will I find an amulet of conservation to protect my scrolls? 

These questions get answer dynamically in the game.  If you find an amulet of conservation very early you may wind up memorizing many spells on the assumption you will keep more scrolls than on other play throughs.  If you find no amulet and are getting unlucky on scrolls of amnesia you have a very tough choice to make.  Often the smarter choice is to take what you are given and make the most of it.

This dynamic of adaption has made MMORPGs stiltled and static and thus people stare at this skill screen trying to shave pennies off the dollar of their character build for hours at a time.  The options in Crawl are at least as varied as in the Secret World yet I do not sit there and attempt to absorb all possible build options in one sit down and then design the ultimate thing and its a waste of time to do so.  You do of course need to make the most out of everything you get and eck out as much effectiveness as possible far more the Secret World as the game is far harder and frankly quite sadistic sometimes.

See the real problems, I think, is not the options or even complexity so much as almost all MMORPGs are simply an exercise in min/max'ing.  And its not that min/max'ing is bad in fact I rather enjoy it.  The problem is that there is never any interesting choice as whether to do so.  In an MMORPG the answer to "Should I min/max accodring to some pre-defined build?" is always always yes.  In Crawl the answer is "It depends."

 

MMORPGs need to find a way to make the answer also be "It depends" at least for a large portion of the game. 

In crawl there is what is called the extended game you need 3 runs to attempt to win the game, but can achieve 15 runes in various dungeon branches.  Generally the extended game is where people often but not always seriously min/max and flesh out some sort of build.  This is mainly because if you go through enough branches you are fairly likely to find a good portion of whatever special loot you would have needed for a build.  However it is often the case that in order to get to say 7 or 8 runes while you may not have the most optimalist build that could ever be, you have cobbled together some sort of very effective build such that grinding out one more +1 on your sword is a rather silly thing to be doing or even lacking a rather powerful spell, while substantial, really deosn't mean much in that you have defeated some of the harder things in the game and the real test for doing a 15 runer is actually playing the game (making smart decisions, knowing when to run etc.) not reaching 100% optimality.

So I am not saying make it really hard to achieve an optimal build nor am I saying have no end-game where people try to min max.  What I am saying is the meat of the games needs to present a more interesting choice than pure optimality seeking. 

Lots of good points in here -- finding that balance between allowing the hardcore theorycrafters do their thing and an EZ mode where everything is laid out is key (and difficult!).  I would never want to take away the option for the elitists to do their thing, games could do better with their tutorials and help.  Too much help (pop-ups and tooltips) and it's intrusive, and not enough, and you've got people quitting over the learning curve.  

Some of this gets handled by the tips that appear on the starter screens, some of it in the forums, but fiinding a way to gracefully offer suggestions and hints in game is tricky.  Videos that explain the finer points are one way, as long as they are optional and presented where they make sense.  Same for the tooltips.  I do like the idea of a "help mode" that can be toggled on or off, that will offer more suggestions than in the normal mode, but don't just automatically make the choice for you -- I think we need more thinking and choice in general in these games.  But explaining the fundamentals, and why a particular choice may be better in a particular situation could be done better.  

In TSW's case, I think a "help mode" for picking abilities on the wheel could be very good -- understanding which abilities complement each other, and which weapons tend to work better in a particular role for example.  Lots of helpful websites out of game, but certain parts of that advice could be integrated.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6182

2/16/13 6:58:27 PM#37
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by gestalt11

Isn't this kind of one of the main parts of the RPG genre?

I mean if you want an adventure game that is cool.  Any to some extent a good RPG has many aspects of a good adventure game.  And the same can be said for a hack n slash or beat em up (to a lesser degree).

But if you take out all wealth of options then you really aren't playing much of an RPG.  I play RPGS specifically because I like the options where there are many interesting choices to make.

I will say that secret world has a number of redundant skills and some skills are clearly inferior to others.  So it could do with some clean up etc.

I will also say that MMORPGs have become way way too much about creating optimal builds.  I have been playing Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup the last couple months (this is a rogue-like not an MMO although you can play online).  Now that game has permadeath and precedural generation so MMOs tend to be far more static.

But what i have come to realize is that although you can plan out an optimal build in Crawl whether or not you actually GET that optimal build can be a very risky bet and since there is perma death and a finite ability to grind try to wait around on trying to find the right spell book to complete your build might just wind up making you weak in the early game and getting you killed by an ogre hiding around the corner.  Whereas if you had adapted to what you FOUND rather adamantly adhering to what you PLANNED you are more likely to win.  Perhaps later on after getting very strong and stashing alot of items you may readjust your character towards a build you really like but due to the nature of the game: Randomness, possible destruction of resources etc.  You still may not really be able to do this. 

For example you can only memorize so many spells based on level and spellcasting skill.  You may wind up memorizing a few spells you only wanted to help out with mid game things and would idealy use Scrolls of Amensia to forget a few later one.  But a) you need to find the spellbook for the other spells and b) you need to find the scrolls and c) anytime you hit with a fire attack there is a chance of your scrolls being permanently destroyed.  So you have to think how likely am I to find the spell I want?  How likely am I to be able to rearrange 20 spells level worth of spells?  Will I find an amulet of conservation to protect my scrolls? 

These questions get answer dynamically in the game.  If you find an amulet of conservation very early you may wind up memorizing many spells on the assumption you will keep more scrolls than on other play throughs.  If you find no amulet and are getting unlucky on scrolls of amnesia you have a very tough choice to make.  Often the smarter choice is to take what you are given and make the most of it.

This dynamic of adaption has made MMORPGs stiltled and static and thus people stare at this skill screen trying to shave pennies off the dollar of their character build for hours at a time.  The options in Crawl are at least as varied as in the Secret World yet I do not sit there and attempt to absorb all possible build options in one sit down and then design the ultimate thing and its a waste of time to do so.  You do of course need to make the most out of everything you get and eck out as much effectiveness as possible far more the Secret World as the game is far harder and frankly quite sadistic sometimes.

See the real problems, I think, is not the options or even complexity so much as almost all MMORPGs are simply an exercise in min/max'ing.  And its not that min/max'ing is bad in fact I rather enjoy it.  The problem is that there is never any interesting choice as whether to do so.  In an MMORPG the answer to "Should I min/max accodring to some pre-defined build?" is always always yes.  In Crawl the answer is "It depends."

 

MMORPGs need to find a way to make the answer also be "It depends" at least for a large portion of the game. 

In crawl there is what is called the extended game you need 3 runs to attempt to win the game, but can achieve 15 runes in various dungeon branches.  Generally the extended game is where people often but not always seriously min/max and flesh out some sort of build.  This is mainly because if you go through enough branches you are fairly likely to find a good portion of whatever special loot you would have needed for a build.  However it is often the case that in order to get to say 7 or 8 runes while you may not have the most optimalist build that could ever be, you have cobbled together some sort of very effective build such that grinding out one more +1 on your sword is a rather silly thing to be doing or even lacking a rather powerful spell, while substantial, really deosn't mean much in that you have defeated some of the harder things in the game and the real test for doing a 15 runer is actually playing the game (making smart decisions, knowing when to run etc.) not reaching 100% optimality.

So I am not saying make it really hard to achieve an optimal build nor am I saying have no end-game where people try to min max.  What I am saying is the meat of the games needs to present a more interesting choice than pure optimality seeking. 

Lots of good points in here -- finding that balance between allowing the hardcore theorycrafters do their thing and an EZ mode where everything is laid out is key (and difficult!).  I would never want to take away the option for the elitists to do their thing, games could do better with their tutorials and help.  Too much help (pop-ups and tooltips) and it's intrusive, and not enough, and you've got people quitting over the learning curve.  

Some of this gets handled by the tips that appear on the starter screens, some of it in the forums, but fiinding a way to gracefully offer suggestions and hints in game is tricky.  Videos that explain the finer points are one way, as long as they are optional and presented where they make sense.  Same for the tooltips.  I do like the idea of a "help mode" that can be toggled on or off, that will offer more suggestions than in the normal mode, but don't just automatically make the choice for you -- I think we need more thinking and choice in general in these games.  But explaining the fundamentals, and why a particular choice may be better in a particular situation could be done better.  

In TSW's case, I think a "help mode" for picking abilities on the wheel could be very good -- understanding which abilities complement each other, and which weapons tend to work better in a particular role for example.  Lots of helpful websites out of game, but certain parts of that advice could be integrated.

Well there is more to it than just tooltips and such.  This becomes quite evident when you fight some nightmare mobs.  Nightmare mobs usually have some sort of buff that needs to be counters such as "mob heals when you miss them".  Thus you need to know the mob and you need to come up with some way to not miss or reduce healing.  If you don't you just can't kill the mob even though its not necessarily lots harder than a normal.

 

The only way I figured this out in part of egypt was by scoping out the buffs and I did it rather by accident after me and another guy tried to DPS em down earlier and were getting nowhere.  So  Iwent back and tried to figure out what was the deal and I noticed it said the mob was nightmare which I assumed just meant elite so  I hovered over the nighrmare icon expecting the typical "This mob is much tougher bring some friends" type blah blah.  Instead if specced this heal when the attacker misses thing and I specced out a high accuracy build and soloed those mobs.  Once I figured that out I made sure to check in transylvania and there are many alternate types of buffs.

 

IN the end you need a pretty large number of alternate things in Secret World you really do need to swap between many builds.

 

Edit:

Forgot to add that this is really the sum total of the analysis of the game outside of how to actually do a quest or dungeon.  You basically analyze what a mob does or is weak to what synergies it may have then you select a build for that then go through whatever rotation of skills that build would do.  Now this is not abnormal of MMOs.  But this is kind of the problem in general with MMOs is basically this dynamic makes them robotic and arcane.

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

2/16/13 8:36:10 PM#38
Any good RPG should allow a player to be as involved as they choose to be overall.  If it forces a player to get involved beyond their comfortable level, then as an RPG game it has fundamentally failed.
  jadiusmax

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/09
Posts: 30

2/16/13 9:13:26 PM#39

OP

I'm really trying to be objective, and i have to start with i appreciate the game at a higher level because so many of MMO releases have been gawd aweful boring/similar.  (PC way of saying im probably bias)

 

But..even with that said...i feel like people having issues here arent even trying.  You dont have to go out of game to have the leveling handed to you.  You pick a deck that has the prettiest costume reward to you and build towards it.  Not really that hard, they even HIGHLIGHT the skills you need in the wheel for the deck so you dont accidentally build into a non-helpful skill.

There are plenty of quests in a zone, so much so that for those complaining about puzzle complexity you just skip the quest and repeat others that you did like the following day.

For those (fallen lord) who complain about the STORY? WTF man, your definitely not trying.  The story missions are some of the most fun/interesting/challenging questlines in a game.  Do you pick up a book and want to just read the last page and know EVERYTHING that happened.  All i can say is i hope NO DEVELOPER listens to a gripe like yours..there would be nothing left to do. 

Having to pick random weapons?? Again..what else do you want? want to be forced to use a certain weapon?  You are given the CHOICE, you get to try them ahead of time rather than be pigeon holed into a weapon type unlike a certain force wielding game out right now.. *cough SWTOR cough*

Talisman system vs Armor system?  Sorry guys..it's the same thing.. 'ring talisman'= ring slot, 'head talisman= helmet', etc.  the items are even listed out graphically in the approximate location on the paper doll.  Come on..this isnt rocket science.

Imho people for whatever reason are trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.. unnecessary when there is definitely enough that IS wrong with the game (I'm looking at you cut scene animations)

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

2/16/13 9:25:51 PM#40
Originally posted by fallenlords
Any good RPG should allow a player to be as involved as they choose to be overall.  If it forces a player to get involved beyond their comfortable level, then as an RPG game it has fundamentally failed.

Where did you read that? Your RPG Bible? Did the RPG pope declare the fundamentals of an RPG to be accessibility?

I must have missed so much since the days of ADnD and Ultima.

 

Please, do go on and enlighten us peasants with your superior knowledge and wisdom.

4 Pages « 1 2 3 4 » Search