Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You can only change the themepark so much because it is contrived content.  Sandboxes have emergent gameplay that is player-driven.  There is no end-game.  The progression is horizontal. 

And as soon as a respectable dev with a respectable budget does player-driven emergent gameplay that isn't just about dicking, being dicked by, dicking over, and being a dick towards your fellow player - sign me up!

These sandbox wanna-be's will continue to fail if they keep failing to realize the lesson UO learned over a decade ago and SWG had right from the get go.

Oh, and they still need to figure out the "PvE in a sandbox MMO" conundrum - which no sandbox has ever truly embraced - EvE tried, but it was/is a huge fizzle because they didn't take it far enough.

 

I agree, and one of those is opt-in world PvP like SWG's flagging system.  Best of all worlds, IMO.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You can only change the themepark so much because it is contrived content.  Sandboxes have emergent gameplay that is player-driven.  There is no end-game.  The progression is horizontal. 

And as soon as a respectable dev with a respectable budget does player-driven emergent gameplay that isn't just about dicking, being dicked by, dicking over, and being a dick towards your fellow player - sign me up!

These sandbox wanna-be's will continue to fail if they keep failing to realize the lesson UO learned over a decade ago and SWG had right from the get go.

Oh, and they still need to figure out the "PvE in a sandbox MMO" conundrum - which no sandbox has ever truly embraced - EvE tried, but it was/is a huge fizzle because they didn't take it far enough.

I agree, and one of those is opt-in world PvP like SWG's flagging system.  Best of all worlds, IMO.

Ding ding we have a winner! That's the "what devs have blinded themselves to what UO did with Trammel/Felucca and SWG did right at the start."

Now, what's the "PvE in a sandbox" conundrum?

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, to that I will say the same thing I always say when devs come out with their shoulda-woulda posts.  Good luck, and I hope they do it.  However, people have largely moved on now, and the development crew there is tiny.  How are they going to make massive changes to the game to make it more horizontal while satisfying their current subscribers with a tiny dev team.

It's not really shoulda-woulda posts. The release of the Rocket Launcher added a new set of skills for characters to unlock, and another AUX weapon is coming the patch in November. They also mentioned implementing Assembling into making further character progression. 

I really wouldn't call the crew a skeleton crew either, if it continues to pump out the content it has been on a monthly basis. That's more than earning my subscription fee IMO.

And I'm looking forward to World of Darkness, I watched there short dev panel of it at last years fanfest, heheh.

Originally posted by Rayshe

i donno, it was exactly what i was asking for. your generalizing alot there, and speaking for alot of people who probubly dont agree with you.

 

Funny thing about this whole "your own Storyline" it doesnt work in anything other than a Sandbox game. if you want your story hardwired into the system you need to play a Tabletop, because that wont happen otherwise. As it stands im playing the game with a bunch of Dagon Worshopers who create their own part of the storyline within the game setting. We stage events and have discussions in the local Pub. as of late our storyline has been the fight against the Renegade Draug who have turned away from Dagon to worshop The sword Beaumont uses in Solomon Island (i hate giving spoilers so i wont name said sword).

 

The ability to have your own story is there. you just need to play it but as i said, "your own Storyline" cant be hardwired into the system and this is not a sandbox game. It doesnt mean you cant still create a setting and play. ya know what, if your started a story you would probubly find others to join you.  

 

Before you accuse me of not knowing what a sandbox is, my 2 favorate games other than TSW was Face of Mankind and Eve.

Well, then I guess you should ask yourself why the game is failing now.  I find it hard to believe that Ragnar's original vision for this game was to create a themepark that had, at best, 60 days worth of gameplay in it unless you want to dungeon grind forever.  In fact, we know there were major changes along the way, including world faction PvP.  The game was dumbed down, and it's clear to see by how robust some systems are, and how lame others are.  It's like they mashed two games together to get it released faster.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me.  My post was basically an op-ed.  However, I still think if the game was more hybrid or sandbox in nature, it would have a much stronger and larger niche market.  Again, my opinion.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You can only change the themepark so much because it is contrived content.  Sandboxes have emergent gameplay that is player-driven.  There is no end-game.  The progression is horizontal. 

And as soon as a respectable dev with a respectable budget does player-driven emergent gameplay that isn't just about dicking, being dicked by, dicking over, and being a dick towards your fellow player - sign me up!

These sandbox wanna-be's will continue to fail if they keep failing to realize the lesson UO learned over a decade ago and SWG had right from the get go.

Oh, and they still need to figure out the "PvE in a sandbox MMO" conundrum - which no sandbox has ever truly embraced - EvE tried, but it was/is a huge fizzle because they didn't take it far enough.

I agree, and one of those is opt-in world PvP like SWG's flagging system.  Best of all worlds, IMO.

Ding ding we have a winner! That's the "what devs have blinded themselves to what UO did with Trammel/Felucca and SWG did right at the start."

Now, what's the "PvE in a sandbox" conundrum?

I don't know how much you played SWG, if at all, but the flagging system rocked man.  I loved how I could basically decide if I wanted to go on active duty, or on leave, and that timers were built in to help keep people in check.  I also loved when events auto-flagged you such as attacking PvE faction targets, or pulling your saber in public if you were a Jedi.  It just worked so well.  

How has everyone else failed to use such a simple system?  This would have worked great in The Secret World, and even fit into the lore by simply saying "some of thses guys refuse to get along".  To me it is more ludicrous to think that these three factions that have been fighting for hundreds of years, just decided to play nice without ever having a beef with one another.  That was another huge turn-off about this game.  

It just feels like they couldn't decide if it was an adult game, or a kids game sometimes.

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, to that I will say the same thing I always say when devs come out with their shoulda-woulda posts.  Good luck, and I hope they do it.  However, people have largely moved on now, and the development crew there is tiny.  How are they going to make massive changes to the game to make it more horizontal while satisfying their current subscribers with a tiny dev team.

It's not really shoulda-woulda posts. The release of the Rocket Launcher added a new set of skills for characters to unlock, and another AUX weapon is coming the patch in November. They also mentioned implementing Assembling into making further character progression. 

I really wouldn't call the crew a skeleton crew either, if it continues to pump out the content it has been on a monthly basis. That's more than earning my subscription fee IMO.

And I'm looking forward to World of Darkness, I watched there short dev panel of it at last years fanfest, heheh.

Whether or not their tiny semi-monthly updates are good enough for a sub fee is subjective.   For me, it's not.  Hey, if they start delivering a better gameplay experience, I'll reinstall the game and pay them a sub fee.  Right now, the game isn't worth it to me.  Like many others, I got out of it most of what is there to get.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

How has everyone else failed to use such a simple system?  This would have worked great in The Secret World, and even fit into the lore by simply saying "some of thses guys refuse to get along".  To me it is more ludicrous to think that these three factions that have been fighting for hundreds of years, just decided to play nice without ever having a beef with one another.  That was another huge turn-off about this game.  

It just feels like they couldn't decide if it was an adult game, or a kids game sometimes.

 

Well, having played AoC, another MMO Funcom made and that had FFA PvP: I wouldn't exactly make the comparison of 'safe non-PvP open world' with kiddy game and 'PvP open world' with adult game. The vibe and atmosphere on such PvP MMO's, AoC included, can be toxic and more immature adolescent than their PvE equals. Even more, I can see how the devs might have thought after AoC FFA PvP servers, 'hmm, yeah, let's keep open world non-pvp'. Not saying that they did, but I wouldn't find it surprising if they did.

However, your description of a limited, and voluntary optional PvP system as SWG had sounds like a good alternative too.

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by MindTrigger

How has everyone else failed to use such a simple system?  This would have worked great in The Secret World, and even fit into the lore by simply saying "some of thses guys refuse to get along".  To me it is more ludicrous to think that these three factions that have been fighting for hundreds of years, just decided to play nice without ever having a beef with one another.  That was another huge turn-off about this game.  

It just feels like they couldn't decide if it was an adult game, or a kids game sometimes.

 

Well, having played AoC, another MMO Funcom made and that had FFA PvP: I wouldn't exactly make the comparison of 'safe non-PvP open world' with kiddy game and 'PvP open world' with adult game. The vibe and atmosphere on such PvP MMO's, AoC included, can be toxic and more immature adolescent than their PvE equals. Even more, I can see how the devs might have thought after AoC FFA PvP servers, 'hmm, yeah, let's keep open world non-pvp'. Not saying that they did, but I wouldn't find it surprising if they did.

 

However, your description of a limited, and voluntary optional PvP system as SWG had sounds like a good alternative too.

Yeah, sorry.  That was a bit of a non sequitur.  I meant that as a general statement more than just the PvP aspect.

The cool thing about the opt-in style world PvP, is that if you wanted to completely stay out of it, you could provided you didn't attack things like rebel or imperial faction spawns out in the world.  But even if you did that, you could toggle on-leave and wait for your flag timer to change back to PvE while avoiding people.  I did it all the time.

There were raging PvP fights and duels in some of the cities, and at times I would join in and other times I would watch or go on about my business.  It basically elimates the toxicity that BadSpock was referring to, except for the occasional chump calling you a carebear because you won't duel him.

It seems to me they could add opt-in flagged open world pvp in TSW and not break the game that's there today. they have the single server tech now -- what's to prevent funcom from overlaying the feature?

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Whether or not their tiny semi-monthly updates are good enough for a sub fee is subjective.   For me, it's not.  Hey, if they start delivering a better gameplay experience, I'll reinstall the game and pay them a sub fee.  Right now, the game isn't worth it to me.  Like many others, I got out of it most of what is there to get.

A better gameplay experience is just as subjective. Maybe we can chock it up to the game not being for you, as there monthly content updates are on par with Rift who was praised for there frequency of updates.

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Whether or not their tiny semi-monthly updates are good enough for a sub fee is subjective.   For me, it's not.  Hey, if they start delivering a better gameplay experience, I'll reinstall the game and pay them a sub fee.  Right now, the game isn't worth it to me.  Like many others, I got out of it most of what is there to get.

A better gameplay experience is just as subjective. Maybe we can chock it up to the game not being for you, as there monthly content updates are on par with Rift who was praised for there frequency of updates.

Apparently, it's not for very many others either...

Originally posted by Ortwig
It seems to me they could add opt-in flagged open world pvp in TSW and not break the game that's there today. they have the single server tech now -- what's to prevent funcom from overlaying the feature?

Lack of balls.  The same reason we got a themepark with a killer skill wheel

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, then I guess you should ask yourself why the game is failing now.  I find it hard to believe that Ragnar's original vision for this game was to create a themepark that had, at best, 60 days worth of gameplay in it unless you want to dungeon grind forever.  In fact, we know there were major changes along the way, including world faction PvP.  The game was dumbed down, and it's clear to see by how robust some systems are, and how lame others are.  It's like they mashed two games together to get it released faster.

60 days of gameplay for who? I don't average more than 2-3 hours of gaming per day including weekends (closer to 2) and TSW certainly isn't the only MMO I play. I'm subbed because it will take me way longer than a mere 2 months to see this storyline to end, especially if I want to play through all 3 factions.

Originally posted by CasualMaker

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, then I guess you should ask yourself why the game is failing now.  I find it hard to believe that Ragnar's original vision for this game was to create a themepark that had, at best, 60 days worth of gameplay in it unless you want to dungeon grind forever.  In fact, we know there were major changes along the way, including world faction PvP.  The game was dumbed down, and it's clear to see by how robust some systems are, and how lame others are.  It's like they mashed two games together to get it released faster.

60 days of gameplay for who? I don't average more than 2-3 hours of gaming per day including weekends (closer to 2) and TSW certainly isn't the only MMO I play. I'm subbed because it will take me way longer than a mere 2 months to see this storyline to end, especially if I want to play through all 3 factions.

I'm a casual player as well.  I can assure you that unless you are dragging your feet on purpose, it doesn't take long to finish the game, and that includes grinding your elites and some of the nightmares.

Good on you though.  I hope it lasts for ages for you.  Game's far too shallow for me to hang out past the story line.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Whether or not their tiny semi-monthly updates are good enough for a sub fee is subjective.   For me, it's not.  Hey, if they start delivering a better gameplay experience, I'll reinstall the game and pay them a sub fee.  Right now, the game isn't worth it to me.  Like many others, I got out of it most of what is there to get.

A better gameplay experience is just as subjective. Maybe we can chock it up to the game not being for you, as there monthly content updates are on par with Rift who was praised for there frequency of updates.

Apparently, it's not for very many others either...

True, but it does have the highest metacritic user review of a recent MMO and was the highest rated game here on MMORPG.com for awhile. Take it for what it is. The amount who bought it doesn't matter anyways, it's the retention rate.

What Happened To The Vision?

Wanda Maximoff nuked him.  Along with most of the rest of the Avengers. (see: Avengers Disassembled)

He got better, eventually.

Funcom is a crappy company end of story.  If this game was put out by anyone other then Funcom I would of given a shot but I do not buy anything from Funcom anymore.  They will never be a A list company.

I do think the OP has a point. I would love to see more sandbox elements to compliment the Story and themepark gameplay. This game would be perfect for player created content. Hopefully we will see some of that in future updates.

I enjoy what is there, I would love to see improments as well.

Originally posted by Icewhite

What Happened To The Vision?

Wanda Maximoff nuked him.  Along with most of the rest of the Avengers. (see: Avengers Disassembled)

He got better, eventually.

Heheh. Spousal abuse at it's finest. Was wondering if I was the only one who read the title as that.

Originally posted by Icewhite

What Happened To The Vision?

Wanda Maximoff nuked him. Along with most of the rest of the Avengers. (see: Avengers Disassembled)

He got better, eventually.

Nope. She said 'No More Visions', and that was that. But the Phoenix and Hope will solve everything ^^

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by CasualMaker

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, then I guess you should ask yourself why the game is failing now. I find it hard to believe that Ragnar's original vision for this game was to create a themepark that had, at best, 60 days worth of gameplay in it unless you want to dungeon grind forever. In fact, we know there were major changes along the way, including world faction PvP. The game was dumbed down, and it's clear to see by how robust some systems are, and how lame others are. It's like they mashed two games together to get it released faster.

60 days of gameplay for who? I don't average more than 2-3 hours of gaming per day including weekends (closer to 2) and TSW certainly isn't the only MMO I play. I'm subbed because it will take me way longer than a mere 2 months to see this storyline to end, especially if I want to play through all 3 factions.

I'm a casual player as well. I can assure you that unless you are dragging your feet on purpose, it doesn't take long to finish the game, and that includes grinding your elites and some of the nightmares.

Good on you though. I hope it lasts for ages for you. Game's far too shallow for me to hang out past the story line.

I think it's best when talking about length of gameplay, it's best to talk in concrete gameplay or /played hours, not in actual days bc the average time someone plays per day can vary a lot per person. Gameplay hours is better. For example, I'd estimate to reach level cap in GW2 something like 120-150 hours if you play it for the very first time. However, how long that'll take in real days and weeks, that'll vary from 1 person to the next. Person A can achieve L80 in 7-10 days of playing, while person B might do several months about it, while the actual amount of gameplay hours of the two persons to reach L80 might not even be that far apart at all.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Ortwig
It seems to me they could add opt-in flagged open world pvp in TSW and not break the game that's there today. they have the single server tech now -- what's to prevent funcom from overlaying the feature?

Lack of balls.  The same reason we got a themepark with a killer skill wheel

 

Hmm, I don't know. The modern day horror/dark fantasy setting, the no levels and no classes thing, the more challenging than usual in an MMO Investigation Missions and a number of other quests and mob encounters, I think there are actually quite a number of aspects where they've shown that they're not afraid to stray away from the norm. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't or couldn't do it in other ways as well that they didn't, but it'd be an unfair dismissal of the things they did have the balls to do differently to not acknowledge those. After all, you only have to look at some other AAA themepark MMO's that stayed far closer to the themepark concept and took less risks in changing features how it also could have been done.