Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Beauman

I play World of Warcraft and DC Universe Online currently. One is a subscription only game, one has a free-to-play option. I subscribe to both of them.

I guess they are kiddie games according to the OP, but I wonder if that makes me a "kiddie" for playing them. Interesting thought. Yet, I am 39, four children (oldest 19, youngest only 2), a professional author (yes-- published, yes--award nominated), professional PnP RPG designer and publisher, and make a decent income.

Yet, after trying TSW, I will not pay a subscription for that game. I didn't find the game particularly good from a gameplay standpoint, I found the puzzles simplistic, and the overall theme trying too hard to be "dark and mature" and instead coming off as lackluster and artificial.

 Hmm..Ok. ..So you think I label everyone that plays a certain game " a kiddie"  ? 

Please re-read my initial posts in that case..I may be a bit rusty on the communication skills since English is not my first language..But that was NOT what I ment, far from it..

I have played both of those games myself and I'm even older than you :) Not that 39 or 45 is old , mind you !!

The article is about why we all of a sudden find gamers that express them selfs like..(Obvioiusly both young and old )

-If I am going to play this game they better have it free to play, or else I won't play it ..

There could be several reasons for this, and this is what the article really is about..Nothing else.

I just don't think it's true that all of a sudden TSW is suffering from a wave of players that only want F2P games. You are blaming the sub for people not wanting to play and not the game itself. It's a pointless discussion if you can't move from the position that the game is simply not worth a sub and that's why we aren't playing. You'll just find yourself getting more and more confused as to why people aren't playing. It's quite simple really.

I'll happily sub to a game I enjoy and think is worth the sub.

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

I don't know if you will consider me 'mature player', but I am playing computer games since 1990.

My first mmoprg was Ultima Online and I loved it.

I also can pay subscription and actually for kind of mmorpg I would want to play most and longterm - I would prefer subsciption if that would give me no cash shop, no rmah, no gold selling enviroment.

 

I know one thing though.  TSW will NOT pick me.  I played it and it is usual, linear themepak with instanced dungeons PvE grinding and instanced PvP grinding.  Also not really into mmorpg's that put most of their emphasis on story and cutscenes.

People say TSW is immersive and 'virtual worldy', but for me it is not.  Cutscenes and VO does not really work for me well in mmorpg's so I was not immersed and game is zoned themepark with instaced grind so there is nothing virtual worldy about it. Not more than in Swtor or AoC.

Bit of story can be nice, but overally I am not looking for that in mmropg and even if I look for story I will create myself.

Besides I hate double dipping with their pricing.

 

So thanks but no thanks.

 You don't like the game, thats fine..Not everyone will like TSW..

But you do not have a problem with a "price" or a subscription fee if the game you play is good in your opinion :)

But as It's stands ...Most players today seems to have a problem with just that..To actually pay for anything,,

 

being easily able to afford the fee, and that is the main reason why it isn't doing as well as it should be?Let me get this straight. Are you saying there are thousands of players out there who think this is a wonderful game but are not playing it only because of the subscription fee, despite

 

Plus are you also saying it should remain sub based because otherwise it will attract a less mature gamer?

 

Just trying to work through the argument.

 My argument is that the fee is not expensive, ..I do not think that was hard to understand.

My points in my initial post refer to .."reasons" IMO why players all of a sudden has started to feel that a subscription fee for a AA title is out of the question..

"being easily able to afford the fee, and that is the main reason why it isn't doing as well as it should be?Let me get this straight. Are you saying there are thousands of players out there who think this is a wonderful game but are not playing it only because of the subscription fee, despite "

Sorry,  I don't really understand what you mean by this ..at all.

 

Probably because you've chopped and garbled my original post and now it doesn't make sense.

 

Here it is again:

 

"Are you saying there are thousands of players out there who think this is a wonderful game but are not playing it only because of the subscription fee, despite being easily able to afford the fee, and that is the main reason why it isn't doing as well as it should be?"

 

 

 

 Ohh really sorry If i messed something up..I only copied what you wrote to quote it..Your initial post is still there above..

Well..yes  there are players  ..alot actually, that sais they won't play certain games because they have a subscription fee.

IMO 50-60$ + 15$/month for entertainment is not much money, but It could be much money for a person that has limited funds, and when more than half the MMO's on the market has started to become FTP it feels less and less reasonable for said individual to pay for entertainment that usually is free .

I gave several reasons in my initial post why It may be like this. , when did we actually start to get cheap with an already cheap hobby ?

 

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of players who won't pay for another FUNCOM game too. What kind of category do you have for them?

Some would rather pay their 50-60+15 on Sims, if they had to choose. It's the kiddies! They wouldn't pay for a Funcom game.

Maybe you should try to understand, that it isn't about being cheap, it's about wasting money on a questionable company. I bet that's too hard for you to see, though.

Originally posted by thark
I know gw2 is cheaper overall, but it has alot less in production value than TSW . Naturally its the gamers that choose, and it seems to be pointing towards cheap

I lol'ed so hard...

really dude, still laughing my a... off

GW 2 cheap production... rofl  xD

xDDD

( 3 years in Age of Conan have taught me that money thrown at Funcom is a bad thing...).

Originally posted by sugar4free

Originally posted by thark
I know gw2 is cheaper overall, but it has alot less in production value than TSW . Naturally its the gamers that choose, and it seems to be pointing towards cheap

I lol'ed so hard...

really dude, still laughing my a... off

GW 2 cheap production... rofl  xD

 

xDDD

 

( 3 years in Age of Conan have taught me that money thrown at Funcom is a bad thing...).

As I said earlier, he hates everything that is popular. You see ridiculous reasons to why FC should earn 2 mill subs etc, it's just because FC has such a mature game with same ideas as over 10-year old games have.

Originally posted by ChicagoCub

Originally posted by HeroEvermore
I love your enthusiasm. Sadly TSW is a moneysink for Funcom now. Thankfully they have some decent investors and shouldn't bite the bucket from it. AoC probably making money still. I mean 200k total units sold in 2 months. Ouch. How many still even subbed. Usually 60% of mmorpg gamers don't make it to the 3rd month of a game. I wish your game the best of luck though and I am only commenting in astonishment that only 200k units sold. Considering how hyped it was on here.

TSW is cash flow positive for Funcom.  That's the opposite of a money sink.

Good that you guys know so much about company economy without having any serious numbers, want to work for mine?

Problem is there is no invest without serious plans and a good return on investment (COMPANIES always do worst and best case) And im very sure funcom had a even worser case for their strategy. I am pretty sick of this company going to sink or going to rise threads and speaking even the writers have no real clue about their management systems and their plans, they just repeat what others said in another thread, thats annoying.

Originally posted by Rawiz

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Beauman

I play World of Warcraft and DC Universe Online currently. One is a subscription only game, one has a free-to-play option. I subscribe to both of them.

I guess they are kiddie games according to the OP, but I wonder if that makes me a "kiddie" for playing them. Interesting thought. Yet, I am 39, four children (oldest 19, youngest only 2), a professional author (yes-- published, yes--award nominated), professional PnP RPG designer and publisher, and make a decent income.

Yet, after trying TSW, I will not pay a subscription for that game. I didn't find the game particularly good from a gameplay standpoint, I found the puzzles simplistic, and the overall theme trying too hard to be "dark and mature" and instead coming off as lackluster and artificial.

 Hmm..Ok. ..So you think I label everyone that plays a certain game " a kiddie"  ? 

Please re-read my initial posts in that case..I may be a bit rusty on the communication skills since English is not my first language..But that was NOT what I ment, far from it..

I have played both of those games myself and I'm even older than you :) Not that 39 or 45 is old , mind you !!

The article is about why we all of a sudden find gamers that express them selfs like..(Obvioiusly both young and old )

-If I am going to play this game they better have it free to play, or else I won't play it ..

There could be several reasons for this, and this is what the article really is about..Nothing else.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you should answer my last post. (on page 2, that you conviniently ignored completely).

You say right now, that you don't label everyone who plays a certain game a kiddie. Yet 2 days ago you said: "Yes..WoW ..is still a "kiddie" game.." You have never raided, you know nothing about difficulty, yet your TSW is so hard and requires much brains to play. Basically you'd be a noob in WoW, which you so much hate, you'd be a casual scrub, who knows nothing about raiding (hard content).

At least delete your previous response, before talking completely out of your ass.

 I'm sorry ..I didnt ignore your post..I simply missed It. I went back and read it..:)

You do make some good points, and yes you are right not every inch of WoW should be labeled easy, I more than well understand that . Ohh I have been raiding thou, not in WoW but in other games.

Sure If it pleases you, I overreacted abit, naturally not all players of WoW  should be labeled "kiiddies" My neigbour still plays WoW and hes certainly not a kid. so..you are right..

As you said..WoW is the most "popular" MMO , that is also why they have the largest portion of that game  made "super easy" , only but a fraction of it's players actually plays the game you are refering to.

I don't hate WoW..I shun what has become of ..the hobby we once knew as a whole, I'd like a challenge in my games, much like you obviously , as you are playing "hard raids" in WoW. I like to think , use tactics and learn from my mistakes.

But ...This is also not what I'm really discussing here..It's about why ..the market for games all of a sudden has become cheap..It's about the effect of FTP titles and low production cost titles versus high production value titles that all of a sudden more less going to be forced to go FTP .

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.

1 The  to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .

This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.

2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.

3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..

Sure may add that having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast.

4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.

Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.

 

Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.

 

 

Why should there be a monthly sub for a game? Explain other than complaining that people don't like to pay it.

 

It is not the gamers that need to change it is the gaming companies. Sticking with the same old tired game design does not help sell games - TOR found that out. Gaming companies need to innovate or die.

 

GW2 shows that companies can innovate if they want to. They just need to get off there lazy butts and do it. Once that happens maybe then you will see a different type of gamer.

 If you read my post I think I more than well explained why people are cheap..If you think you precious GW2 devs doesn't want your money ..Well think again..They will charge you..and in the end it will be more/less the same as a standard MMO..

I know gw2 is cheaper overall, but it has alot less in production value than TSW . Naturally its the gamers that choose, and it seems to be pointing towards cheap

Seems to be pointing towards fun and well-made to me rther than cheap.

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Beauman

I play World of Warcraft and DC Universe Online currently. One is a subscription only game, one has a free-to-play option. I subscribe to both of them.

I guess they are kiddie games according to the OP, but I wonder if that makes me a "kiddie" for playing them. Interesting thought. Yet, I am 39, four children (oldest 19, youngest only 2), a professional author (yes-- published, yes--award nominated), professional PnP RPG designer and publisher, and make a decent income.

Yet, after trying TSW, I will not pay a subscription for that game. I didn't find the game particularly good from a gameplay standpoint, I found the puzzles simplistic, and the overall theme trying too hard to be "dark and mature" and instead coming off as lackluster and artificial.

 Hmm..Ok. ..So you think I label everyone that plays a certain game " a kiddie"  ? 

Please re-read my initial posts in that case..I may be a bit rusty on the communication skills since English is not my first language..But that was NOT what I ment, far from it..

I have played both of those games myself and I'm even older than you :) Not that 39 or 45 is old , mind you !!

The article is about why we all of a sudden find gamers that express them selfs like..(Obvioiusly both young and old )

-If I am going to play this game they better have it free to play, or else I won't play it ..

There could be several reasons for this, and this is what the article really is about..Nothing else.

 

I just don't think it's true that all of a sudden TSW is suffering from a wave of players that only want F2P games. You are blaming the sub for people not wanting to play and not the game itself. It's a pointless discussion if you can't move from the position that the game is simply not worth a sub and that's why we aren't playing. You'll just find yourself getting more and more confused as to why people aren't playing. It's quite simple really.

 

I'll happily sub to a game I enjoy and think is worth the sub.

 Ok..For SOME players ...the game is not worth a sub, because they think it's a terrible game , I absolutly do not argue this the slightest.

I don't see where i pointed out that its  about  ALL players , maybe it's a large group but certainly not everyone, It feels large to me atleast.

Originally posted by Rawiz

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

I don't know if you will consider me 'mature player', but I am playing computer games since 1990.

My first mmoprg was Ultima Online and I loved it.

I also can pay subscription and actually for kind of mmorpg I would want to play most and longterm - I would prefer subsciption if that would give me no cash shop, no rmah, no gold selling enviroment.

 

I know one thing though.  TSW will NOT pick me.  I played it and it is usual, linear themepak with instanced dungeons PvE grinding and instanced PvP grinding.  Also not really into mmorpg's that put most of their emphasis on story and cutscenes.

People say TSW is immersive and 'virtual worldy', but for me it is not.  Cutscenes and VO does not really work for me well in mmorpg's so I was not immersed and game is zoned themepark with instaced grind so there is nothing virtual worldy about it. Not more than in Swtor or AoC.

Bit of story can be nice, but overally I am not looking for that in mmropg and even if I look for story I will create myself.

Besides I hate double dipping with their pricing.

 

So thanks but no thanks.

 You don't like the game, thats fine..Not everyone will like TSW..

But you do not have a problem with a "price" or a subscription fee if the game you play is good in your opinion :)

But as It's stands ...Most players today seems to have a problem with just that..To actually pay for anything,,

 

being easily able to afford the fee, and that is the main reason why it isn't doing as well as it should be?Let me get this straight. Are you saying there are thousands of players out there who think this is a wonderful game but are not playing it only because of the subscription fee, despite

 

Plus are you also saying it should remain sub based because otherwise it will attract a less mature gamer?

 

Just trying to work through the argument.

 My argument is that the fee is not expensive, ..I do not think that was hard to understand.

My points in my initial post refer to .."reasons" IMO why players all of a sudden has started to feel that a subscription fee for a AA title is out of the question..

"being easily able to afford the fee, and that is the main reason why it isn't doing as well as it should be?Let me get this straight. Are you saying there are thousands of players out there who think this is a wonderful game but are not playing it only because of the subscription fee, despite "

Sorry,  I don't really understand what you mean by this ..at all.

 

Probably because you've chopped and garbled my original post and now it doesn't make sense.

 

Here it is again:

 

"Are you saying there are thousands of players out there who think this is a wonderful game but are not playing it only because of the subscription fee, despite being easily able to afford the fee, and that is the main reason why it isn't doing as well as it should be?"

 

 

 

 Ohh really sorry If i messed something up..I only copied what you wrote to quote it..Your initial post is still there above..

Well..yes  there are players  ..alot actually, that sais they won't play certain games because they have a subscription fee.

IMO 50-60$ + 15$/month for entertainment is not much money, but It could be much money for a person that has limited funds, and when more than half the MMO's on the market has started to become FTP it feels less and less reasonable for said individual to pay for entertainment that usually is free .

I gave several reasons in my initial post why It may be like this. , when did we actually start to get cheap with an already cheap hobby ?

 

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of players who won't pay for another FUNCOM game too. What kind of category do you have for them?

Some would rather pay their 50-60+15 on Sims, if they had to choose. It's the kiddies! They wouldn't pay for a Funcom game.

Maybe you should try to understand, that it isn't about being cheap, it's about wasting money on a questionable company. I bet that's too hard for you to see, though.

 

 

 Not at all..It's not hard to see..and ofcourse a valid reason like every other reason..

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.

1 The  to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .

This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.

2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.

3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..

Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set  the game as "played"

4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.

Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.

 

Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.

 

 

I'm not sure why you think that The Secret World necessarily attracts or will continue to attract mature gamers just because it has a sub attached and I'm not sure what makes you think people with money don't play betas. I've got a good job and plenty of money and I play betas. I also played TSW beta and for a month after launch and I didn't find the content particularly any more engaging as a mature player than any other game. I don't think that monsters, blood, swearing and a few puzzles make a mature game (to be honest the puzzles are probably easily doable by people in their late teens) or maybe mature for people who want to feel a bit more grown up. I didn't stop playing because it had a sub and I wouldn't continute to play even if I thought the sub would attract a more mature community. The cost of the game plus sub wasn't an issue for me.

Amongst other mmos I play LOTRO (I guess it's one of your kiddie games) which is F2P and what makes it mature gaming for me is the guild I play with and the level of RP that takes place, there are also some complex emotional engagement with quests as well (the death of Theodred at the Isen was moving). It just doesn't follow that kids play the F2P sword and sorcery games and adults with a decent income play sub based games with a setting like TSW. LOTRO on Laurelin has a very mature community and is a F2P game. The best mmos are what you make of it and if it has the flexibility to allow that level of engagement. The criteria for me has always been, and always will be, is it a game I enjoy playing and at the right level of emotional complexity (not game complexity as we all know LOTRO is very easy to play) and with a community to engage me as an adult? At the moment LOTRO does that and TSW didn't i'm afraid. I'm sure there are thousands of mature gamers out there not playing TSW, maybe there are ways of attracting them, but at the moment there is nothing that will attract me back to it.

Not everyone like TSW..for diffrent reasons, you didnt. like the game for what it is,.thats fine..I don't know where I said my ideas included every single gamer on this planet .Taste is naturally individual.

.I played LOTRO aswell back when it was NOT FTP ,  as I have answered others  Ill answer you. This is a AA title from the beginning that has been forced FTP because of a fluctuating changing market. You can't make this type of quality games from the beginning if you are aiming for FTP from the get go..And yes LOTRO is a mature game with a deep engaging story.

If you ever played the game before it went FTP , you didnt notice any changes in the community , did you ?

Originally posted by thark
 More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

Indeed. But this, dear OP, is because games themselves have changed. Now when you can't try before you buy you're going to buy total crap with 90% probability. What's worse, even betas don't always help as engame can be very different from early game. The most recent example is D3. Leveling was fun but engame was crap. Well, at least leveling was fun.

Developers are cheap, my friend, not gamers.

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by Beauman

I play World of Warcraft and DC Universe Online currently. One is a subscription only game, one has a free-to-play option. I subscribe to both of them.

I guess they are kiddie games according to the OP, but I wonder if that makes me a "kiddie" for playing them. Interesting thought. Yet, I am 39, four children (oldest 19, youngest only 2), a professional author (yes-- published, yes--award nominated), professional PnP RPG designer and publisher, and make a decent income.

Yet, after trying TSW, I will not pay a subscription for that game. I didn't find the game particularly good from a gameplay standpoint, I found the puzzles simplistic, and the overall theme trying too hard to be "dark and mature" and instead coming off as lackluster and artificial.

 Hmm..Ok. ..So you think I label everyone that plays a certain game " a kiddie"  ? 

Please re-read my initial posts in that case..I may be a bit rusty on the communication skills since English is not my first language..But that was NOT what I ment, far from it..

I have played both of those games myself and I'm even older than you :) Not that 39 or 45 is old , mind you !!

The article is about why we all of a sudden find gamers that express them selfs like..(Obvioiusly both young and old )

-If I am going to play this game they better have it free to play, or else I won't play it ..

There could be several reasons for this, and this is what the article really is about..Nothing else.

 

Well, of course there is that market segment that won't touch a game without a F2P option. Truth of the matter, however, is that if the MMO industry was like it was pre-Turbine going F2P-Hybrid with DDO and LoTRO and blowing the doors off that market, those people would not be playing MMOs at all. They were simply not going to pay a monthly sub for a game, period.

And they've been around for well over the past decade. Heck, I'd hear that same reasoning from people way back when EQ1 ruled the roost: No thank you, I won't pay a subscription for a video game. And the MMO market had zero chance of ever tapping into their wallets, whereas with F2P-Hybrid they now at least have a chance of getting them to walk through the door and maybe drop some cash via the microtransactions. I can say that Turbine, SOE, and Cryptic all swear that it's worked for them.

Unfortunately, the main thing that hurt The Secret World is Funcom. Anarchy Online never had a great reputation for being stable, and its launch was one of the absolute worse of that era. Even after the dust had settled and the memories had faded, Funcom botched it all over again with Age of Conan. AoC didn't fade as fast from memory (not to mention the internet has grown since the Anarchy Online days, and AoC's issues are still well discussed). So, when Funcom was launching The Secret World . . . heck, I know several people that Beta tested it, enjoyed it, but have no faith in Funcom not to ultimately botch it, it go F2P, and the Box Price feel more like a charity donation than a well-made purchase (according to them) at that point. Too many people that I personally talked to (not to be confused as a representation of the MMO cosumer base at large) simply had no faith in Funcom and weren't willing to pull out the credit card for them again--- or even for the first time thanks to the reputation they have for game development and botched launches.

I have no doubt that if The Secret World was the best designed MMO to date, it would still be struggling like this out of the gate because of who the developing studio is. Unfortunately, after AO and AoC, I'm not sure Funcom can turn themselves around in the MMO industry anymore. SOE, a much bigger and more experienced studio, once the king of the MMO hill, couldn't even shed their reputation and past actions and turn it around-- and now their entire current and upcoming portfolio is all F2P-Hybrid.

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.

1 The  to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .

This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.

2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.

3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..

Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set  the game as "played"

4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.

Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.

 

Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.

You're deluding yourself because none of your statements have any facts or research to back up your claims.

MMO Gamers are not cheap Now a days (No seriously) and most of them are between ages 21 - 37 years old (Not all kids) P2P MMORPG's have not only cash shops but also subscriptions added onto them now. MMO gamers now pay more than they did 10 years ago in some MMORPG's. People in Age of Conan were paying a monthly sub fee plus purchasing Epic pvp armor just so they could contend in the brackets below lvl 80. If you didn't buy that stuff off the marketplace you basically were gimped in pvp below 80, because it was even better then the stuff you could get in dungeons.

I play TSW and love it, but the cash shop should not even be there. The developers make enough money off box sales and subscription fee's. Guild Wars 2 also does pump out just as many updates as any other P2P MMO. Your statement that it doesn't because it doesn't have a subscription fee is completly and utterly false.

Blaming all young people and gamers saying we are cheap because the Industry is not up to your standards is ignorance. Thats like me saying the reason why the Game Industry is bad is because of the gamers who fund the companys and invest in their shareholders so that they can continue to work as a company? What a stupid anology you have.

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.

1 The  to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .

This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.

2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.

3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..

Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set  the game as "played"

4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.

Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.

 

Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.

 

 

Lot of hate in that post, lol.  Some of what you say I agree with, but in the end...the reason we see so many problems with gaming communities, is simply because gaming has gotten to big.  10 years ago gaming was the new thing, not its the big thing.

Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.

1 The  to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .

This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.

2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.

3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..

Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set  the game as "played"

4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.

Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.

 

Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.

You're deluding yourself because none of your statements have any facts or research to back up your claims.

MMO Gamers are not cheap Now a days (No seriously) and most of them are between ages 21 - 37 years old (Not all kids) P2P MMORPG's have not only cash shops but also subscriptions added onto them now. MMO gamers now pay more than they did 10 years ago in some MMORPG's. People in Age of Conan were paying a monthly sub fee plus purchasing Epic pvp armor just so they could contend in the brackets below lvl 80. If you didn't buy that stuff off the marketplace you basically were gimped in pvp below 80, because it was even better then the stuff you could get in dungeons.

I play TSW and love it, but the cash shop should not even be there. The developers make enough money off box sales and subscription fee's. Guild Wars 2 also does pump out just as many updates as any other P2P MMO. Your statement that it doesn't because it doesn't have a subscription fee is completly and utterly false.

Blaming all young people and gamers saying we are cheap because the Industry is not up to your standards is ignorance. Thats like me saying the reason why the Game Industry is bad is because of the gamers who fund the companys and invest in their shareholders so that they can continue to work as a company? What a stupid anology you have.

The largest group of gamers belong to the cathegorie ages between 21-37..I have no doubt what so ever that this is true..But I think we can safely say that there ís a growing categorie of gamers, one that practically has lived besides a computer and a TV game from birth.

The current largest group( of ages 21-37) of gamers above started the Internet era, but I think i can safely say that there is a new breed of gamers comming fast, and this group is growing by the minute. 

Everyday, I meet kids belonging to this group, be it either on my daughters school or on the internet itself, many of them learn the anon phenomena of the internet very early. I play MMO's with my 2 daughters , they have played MMO's since they were 5 or 6 now they are 12,. I try to teach them the ethics of internet and inside gameworlds , so that they learn the value of behaving like nice human beiings, even thou they are anon.  

 But what an ugly mess they are met up with , kids that lie, cheat , scream and simply think they are the greatest on this planet.  Naturally they have very little money to pay for  their games. Wich in turn makes it perfect with the new FTP games all the free torrents etc, just as my points above state.

when you are met up with such an ugly farse, Is it odd that you have little faith in the "new breed of gamers!?.

Maybe I am just seeing the worst in this group , and maybe I'm totally wrong in my predictions, I sincerly hope I am wrong..

Only Time will tell :)

Very interesting perspective you have on the "current generation of children on the internet", OP.

However, I would disagree on a lot of it, and also point to the adults on the internet and the annonymous behavior they indulge in.

Instead, though, let's focus on the up-and-coming generation and MMOs. Your daughters play MMOs, just as you do. My 14 year old plays an MMO, just like his Dad does.

My 12 and 14 year olds are also tabletop roleplayers, just like their parents are.

However, not a single 11-16 year old friend that my son or daughter has (the age of the friend depending upon which one of my kids we are discussing), nor any remote friends in that circle, play MMOs. They are playing the PS3 network or Xbox live. Not a single one of them have even tried WoW (trial version, and a heavily media marketed game), DCUO (DC Comics Universe F2P), or any MMO. They have no interest. Give them a controller, a headset, and their friends in the latest "Be a Soldier" Xbox game.

None of those friends have ever tried a tabletop RPG either, but that's a different thread.

MMOs have yet to find a way to really tap into the current "teenage" generation. And the industry faces extremely tough competition pulling them away from PS3 and (even more so) Xbox Live where all their friends from school are hanging out. And in this economy, don't believe for an instant most parents are just handing out a credit card to little "Timmy" to pay for an MMO when they are likely already paying for them to play Xbox with their friends.

In the two MMOs I currently subscribe to, and the others I have tried over the past two years . . . I haven't noticed all that many "kids" in chat.

---

Originally posted by thark
 Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutely free.

---

1. Software should NOT be free, Unless a developer wants it to be.
2. Skyrim requires a box purchase so it is not free.

Originally posted by Nitth

---

Originally posted by thark
 Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutely free.

---

1. Software should NOT be free, Unless a developer wants it to be.
2. Skyrim requires a box purchase so it is not free.

Originally posted by thark
 think the gamers of today are  cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games

Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.

1 The  to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .

This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.

2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.

3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.

What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..

Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set  the game as "played"

4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.

Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.

 

Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.

 

 

So you approach TSW with a "Country Club" mentality? You think haveing a "gated" game is going to help it? Fact is, TSW is just not that good. It's not worthy of this tripple dip revenue model. If you want a game that filter's players by being more expensive, it better dam well be the pinnacle of the best that the industry has to offer.....EVER! 

Maturity or mentality aside, this game is simply not worth the cost. I have been a long time paying customer of FunCom and so, I had recieved a closed beta invite. So, I tried it and was not overly impressed. It wasn't a bad game, it just didn't suit me. But what's more, is that I will not support FunCom's revenue model. It's that simple. Even if the game was "all that". If I am paying a sub, I want access to all the game offers. even if it's a pair of sungleasses. DOn't make me pay a boxed fee up froint, then pay 15 bucks a month and then put stuff I can't have in the Cash Shop. I ai't payin that. And you must also realize that a lot of the P2W models are also full of P2W brat kiddies who thing they are better players cuz mommy and daddy's CC makes them better? If TSW was worth it's revenue model, you'd have more of these too.

And if you think it's because I'm "cheap", I just spent a considerable amount of real money in GW2's cash shop because I felt it's woth it for me to do so. While what you say may be true in some cases, I think that your generalizations are a little over simplified and really don't apply to as many people as you think. 

Edit:

I reread that, and I know it sounded like I am invalidating what you say, I guess, it's just the way I worded it. So I'm sorry. I do recognize what you are saying. I just don't think it' really applies to TSW as much as other issues do.

A month's subscription to TSW is (I think?) £11.50.  Alternatively I can buy ME3, the AAA multi-award-winning RPG for £7.50

For a small publisher this is brilliant - release a game with minor publicity in March,  put it on sale in May, repeat that sale a few times then release a new game in August.  More income, faster, and free publicity for the sequel... awesome!

For a large publisher like EA, this is a nightmare.  Their AAA games need to compete against those sales...  As they release so many sales, they can pretty much guarantee every AAA release will be up against a discounted product!  If they discount their own games then they'll be facing the nightmare of ME4 competing against a discounted dragon age 3...

In MMO terms - is a months subscription to TSW worth 1.5x ME3? How about 3xFar Cry I+II? or Assassin's creed I+II+brotherhood?

Game prices are being driven downwards by aggressive companies.  Gamers aren't cheap... games are.

A company needs to base it's business model on the state of it's environment... rather than trying to change the environment to match it's business model.