Well it was obvious already in beta that there would be overpowered builds for both PVE and PVP. All it took to work it out was a spreadsheet and a basic understanding of game mechanics in TSW.

I had told people here that there were levels in the game (there are), and that the notion that people wouldn't follow cookie-cutter "best" builds was fantasist, that there were obvious best builds that everyone would end up using - statements which were met with incredulity and some degree of anger.

It turns out, I was right. That's not saying TSW isn't a good game, it's pretty good. But it's not revolutionary, apart from the setting which is a first - and really, that's the whole point.

MMO mechanics are familiar. 7 button hotbar gameplay and dodgy combat mechanics combined with an easy to work out metagame means that people like me already knew what endgame builds would be like, and how they would work.

All MMO games, like FPS, at their core are similar. But TSW does succeed at making things interesting with its setting, factions and lore.

Funcom needs to focus on these, and expand the content, if it hopes to keep players interested and invested. It should stop trying to hype its game mechanics which any MMO player with an analytical mind will see through, and focus on the things that make TSW unique.

Anyway, I'll leave you with a fun little video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-6rQQhBKhM&hd=1

Enjoy

Ofc it's not revolutionary and I've never even thought that but for me personally TSW is the best MMO currently and probably will be for quite some time. There were "best builds" at first, at least for me because in the beginning I could not understand the skill wheel very well. Now I just combine skills that fit my play style and I don't search for the best builds. I have my questing build, PvP build, tanking build and some more I have to update a bit. The best thing is that I can change those builds any time to play a different role and I'm not class restricted to do anything.

Seems most were already aware of this. I know there were a few that said it wouldn't happen but they were the minority.

How do you stop things like this.. ?

I mean with this kind of skill system and with a cap people are always gonna find the best builds thats just the way thigns work out.. sure the company can then try to balance it out as much as possible but someone wil always find somthing to give them an edge and people will copy..

Hell even class based systems like wow have op builds and so on.. look how many times they have tried to balance everything out in that?

I guess you could do a darkfall and let everyone be able to get everything... and hot key up every skill.. that way everyone is the same so none fo this best build stuff or best op class stuff.

 

I am not taking the mic here by the way if you do have a good idea how to stop this then post up :)

 

 

 

I don't even care for TSW, but i'm sure there are builds that would counter those "best builds". It's just like the GW2 warrior, Thousand Blades combo destroys people and the masses are flocking to that spec. But since SS and TP fought it out and SS made a counter build on their necro, people are starting to see the counter builds can be made, you just have to find them.

I'm sure it's the same for TSW, i'm sure there are good builds, but it seems most people don't build themselves, they google "Good tsw dps deck" or something, watch a video or two on it and bam, there's their spec. Ofcourse people will flock to a good deck, but it doesn't mean that's the only good one. I garuntee, that if there are as many different skills/triats/whatever that someone will build a counter build for that one. 

It just takes someone the time to think it through and make test it, which 99% of the gamers as i'm sure, just want to run n gun instead of tweak their own build. 

Not trying to flame or anything, just saying, most people don't make their own builds, they google them, so of course certain builds will be more popular. Give it a couple of weeks and i'm sure you will start seeing the next build of the month. Give it enough time and you will have so many builds it's a pick and choose game.

whats this build? I could use a better one for pve right now :P

wow, that vid is messed up. Granted its going to be nearly impossible for them to balance out so many skill combinations.

Originally posted by Kuppa
wow, that vid is messed up. Granted its going to be nearly impossible for them to balance out so many skill combinations. I think I lost any hope of pvp in this game.

 Yeah...not very likely they will be able to.

Hell it goes that way even for PvE really. There are some builds that are killer, some that are decent, and some that well...once you get far enough in game you're fucked with.

No RPG is 100% balanced. There are always builds that are better than others. I think that's pretty obvious and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what he's talking about.

The more skill combinations a game has, the harder it becomes to balance. TSW's system is very similar to Guild Wars 1's and look what ANet did for GW2 - they reduced the number of possible combinations by only letting you to have a single class and grouping attack skills. TSW has fewer skills than GW1, luckily, so hopefully FC will be able to make it somewhat balanced.

no I dont remember that

Originally posted by dekou

No RPG is 100% balanced. There are always builds that are better than others. I think that's pretty obvious and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what he's talking about.

The more skill combinations a game has, the harder it becomes to balance. TSW's system is very similar to Guild Wars 1's and look what ANet did for GW2 - they reduced the number of possible combinations by only letting you to have a single class and grouping attack skills. TSW has fewer skills than GW1, luckily, so hopefully FC will be able to make it somewhat balanced.

TSW has fewer skills than GW1 but they are not limited by classes so its way harder to balance.

I personally don't care about "best builds" and frankly, they are often useless in PUGS and in the PvE content.  I have a very, very strong elite tank finishing up the elite dungeons, and I almost always have to make some tweaks to make up for the differences in other people in the group.  

Lots of "best builds" won't work in the PvE content either, because a pure healer will get owned, a pure tank will often take forever to kill stuff, pure DPS may not be able to take hard hits from tougher mobs, etc.

Also, how do you avoid this? At least in TSW, you can change your role and gear on the fly for any reason you want.  In a traditional class-based themepark, you are basically stuck in one single role all the time.  I love that somtimes I am tank, somtimes I am DPS, and soon, I will also be able to do heals.  All with one character, and changing/mixing whenever I want.

I just fail to see the issue here.  TSW offers the best system a themepark is ever going to have, IMO.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Kuppa
wow, that vid is messed up. Granted its going to be nearly impossible for them to balance out so many skill combinations. I think I lost any hope of pvp in this game.

 Yeah...not very likely they will be able to.

Hell it goes that way even for PvE really. There are some builds that are killer, some that are decent, and some that well...once you get far enough in game you're fucked with.

You never stop gaining AP or SP until you are completely maxed.  If you need AP, you can go back to a lower level area and pick a ton of it up be replaying some quests in a very short amount of time.  If you get stuck in some signular build, which I wouldn't even know how *anyone* would do that because the game naturally forces you to explore the Ability Wheel, then you probably are just being hard headed and/or ignorant.

I made the mistake of trying to build my character using the Dragon "Martial Artist" tank deck early on.  What I ended up with was a character that couldn't tank until the deck was almost completely done.  Because of this, I did some additional quests to get some more AP, which took all of two hours, and then I bought some more DPS style skills.

You guys act like you are permanently locked into some mistake you made.  You can basicallty "respec" by running some more quests.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Well it was obvious already in beta that there would be overpowered builds for both PVE and PVP. All it took to work it out was a spreadsheet and a basic understanding of game mechanics in TSW.

I had told people here that there were levels in the game (there are), and that the notion that people wouldn't follow cookie-cutter "best" builds was fantasist, that there were obvious best builds that everyone would end up using - statements which were met with incredulity and some degree of anger.

It turns out, I was right. That's not saying TSW isn't a good game, it's pretty good. But it's not revolutionary, apart from the setting which is a first - and really, that's the whole point.

MMO mechanics are familiar. 7 button hotbar gameplay and dodgy combat mechanics combined with an easy to work out metagame means that people like me already knew what endgame builds would be like, and how they would work.

All MMO games, like FPS, at their core are similar. But TSW does succeed at making things interesting with its setting, factions and lore.

Funcom needs to focus on these, and expand the content, if it hopes to keep players interested and invested. It should stop trying to hype its game mechanics which any MMO player with an analytical mind will see through, and focus on the things that make TSW unique.

Anyway, I'll leave you with a fun little video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-6rQQhBKhM&hd=1

Enjoy

That's HIS build. He broke the mold with this one. From specologist to specoligist I congratulate him.

 

Funcom said "We have acceptable limits. We know players will try to"break" the game. In fact we encourage it. When things go beyond those limits we will make adjustments.

 

Awesome stuff if you ask me . The best thing about it is you nor anyone else knows what this build is. 

 

Yes right now I will agree he has the best build lol. Mine is damn good too. gogo TSW!

 

 

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You never stop gaining AP or SP until you are completely maxed.  If you need AP, you can go back to a lower level area and pick a ton of it up be replaying some quests in a very short amount of time.  If you get stick in some signular build, which I wouldn't even know how *anyone* would do that because the game naturally forces you to explore the Ability Wheel, then you probably are just being hard headed and/or ignorant.

I made the mistake of trying to build my character using the Dragon "Martial Artist" tank deck early on.  What I ended up with was a character that couldn't tank until the deck was almost completely done.  Because of this, I did some additional quests to get some more AP, which took all of two hours, and then I bought some more DPS style skills.

You guys act like you are permanently locked into some mistake you made.  You can basicallty "respec" by running some more quests.

 Think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm simply referring to the equality of builds. Not complaining the game is too hard or unforgiving. Not everyone wants to be the same build types yet in essence there are builds that are stronger than others. Is it a problem for me? No. Does it exist? Of course. Pretty sure that is all we're getting at.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You never stop gaining AP or SP until you are completely maxed.  If you need AP, you can go back to a lower level area and pick a ton of it up be replaying some quests in a very short amount of time.  If you get stick in some signular build, which I wouldn't even know how *anyone* would do that because the game naturally forces you to explore the Ability Wheel, then you probably are just being hard headed and/or ignorant.

I made the mistake of trying to build my character using the Dragon "Martial Artist" tank deck early on.  What I ended up with was a character that couldn't tank until the deck was almost completely done.  Because of this, I did some additional quests to get some more AP, which took all of two hours, and then I bought some more DPS style skills.

You guys act like you are permanently locked into some mistake you made.  You can basicallty "respec" by running some more quests.

 Think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm simply referring to the equality of builds. Not complaining the game is too hard or unforgiving. Not everyone wants to be the same build types yet in essence there are builds that are stronger than others. Is it a problem for me? No. Does it exist? Of course. Pretty sure that is all we're getting at.

I was referring to the part of the conversation where builds vs PvE was brought up.

I can understand why this is interesting from a PvP perspective. 

I think it's very cool for someone to be able to make a killer build, I'd imagine it took alot of time and he probably had a ton of fun doing it. 14 x # of skills and passives = a hell of alot of combinations no matter how you slice it.

Cant understand what the problem is... balance? everyone is equal, everyone can make any build. If everyone could pick any skill and passive combination and were equally balanced.... well that would kind of suck as there would be no stategy in the wheel.

I'm doing nightmare-dungeons every evening, and I need 7 completely different decks, as I'm the one who swaps abilities for the bosses.

The dungeons are designed in a way, so that you can't do all the bosses without swapping abilities. Polaris and Hell Raised you need Cleanup (shotgun elite) for the end-bosses. Hell Raised Recursia yoiu need freezes for the adds, just to make sure. For Dr Klein you need pistol-buffs for increased healing and the assault-rifle eliter for leeches. Just to name a few bosses where you need special sets of abilities in the group.

Basically all bosses require someone in the group to bring a certain set of abilities, so now come again with your "best" build.

Your claims are laughable tbh, and even in PvP you can totally pwn those muppets with their cookie-cutter setups, as they're not prepared for something else.

Originally posted by Yalexy

I'm doing nightmare-dungeons every evening, and I need 7 completely different decks, as I'm the one who swaps abilities for the bosses.

The dungeons are designed in a way, so that you can't do all the bosses without swapping abilities. Polaris and Hell Raised you need Cleanup (shotgun elite) for the end-bosses. Hell Raised Recursia yoiu need freezes for the adds, just to make sure. For Dr Klein you need pistol-buffs for increased healing and the assault-rifle eliter for leeches. Just to name a few bosses where you need special sets of abilities in the group.

Basically all bosses require someone in the group to bring a certain set of abilities, so now come again with your "best" build.

Your claims are laughable tbh, and even in PvP you can totally pwn those muppets with their cookie-cutter setups, as they're not prepared for something else.

You need types of abilities ie. purges, clenses, snares ect.

 

Sig cannidate in a few weeks ;) This is how I feel when I see AR epicenter lol.

hard reset, magnetic wipe, lightning manifestation + passive, affliction, dots will all help kill this build.