Originally posted by Ambros123

I find TSW the same setup as GW1 where you have a wide array of abilities.  There will be synergy with some things and complete utter uselessness with others.  There will be popular builds that people will model after with enough tailoring to allow some slight alterations for specific enonters/zones.  Not an overall fan of how FC did their classless system, I like EVE's system much more.  There are distinctions with tools to pick n choose from to go with the kind of ship/role your doing and is much more structured.  I prefer a more regimented and structured set up with adequate freedom to have variations instead of a mass free-for-all where you have to sort out the mess of what goes good with what.

There's really a lot to think about and adjust.  I dig it.  One thing people also don't notice is that some passives have to be triggered by things on your actives (or by other states).  Some other passives require specific actives.  I've seen people equipping stuff that never gets used because they fail to read how the stuff works.

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Originally posted by Zylaxx

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Originally posted by eyelolled I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

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Has nothing to do with the skill system but everything to do with how the developers designed the content.

 

As a Tank you need to have multiple stuns (inturrupts) as a Healer you need cleanse (Pistol tree) and as a DPS you need to be able to purge ( Elem and Shotgun).  This is for nightmare mode dungeons.  Again this is a developer implemented hurdle and not a flaw of the skill system.  Plus its infinetly easier to DPS as a ranged class which is also another design flaw of the developers so it further pigeonholes characters into specific choices.

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Says who? i run interrupts as dps for guild runs, Its not complely set in stone its driven by community nonsense.

All these mechanics need to be done, But it doesnt have to be by specific roles.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by eyelolled
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

Are you saying that build X kills an encounter but build Y can't?

OR

Build X kills an encounter in X seconds but build Y kills it in X+more time and therefore "inferior"?

The difference between the two is big.

It really depends on the encounter.

Especially late in the game, if you don't have a build that triggers (or doesn't trigger) certain states, then you are going to die w/ out a good amount of support from other players.

For example, there's some mobs which deal damage to you every time they get hit with afflicted, and their damage goes up quite a bit as a result. There's some that take no damage if you can't weaken them. There's some that have skills that will wreck you if you can't stun, or purge, or clense. Etc etc.

I've actually had to create a number of different builds to do this, but the game allows you to do that. If anything, the biggest issue I've had w/ the game is that it doesn't promote enough variety, and they really need to fix their damn gear management window, so when you swap to other builds it doesn't de-equip most your gear.

phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

 

As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

 

thanks for all the responses btw

Originally posted by eyelolled

phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

 

As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

 

thanks for all the responses btw

I guess I don't perceive a problem here.  I have no idea what people "imagined" they were going to be able to play, but I persnally entered the game with an open mind and just started learning.

Originally posted by eyelolled

phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

thanks for all the responses btw

Your X not being viable in one situation may be viable in anther where Y is not.

Sounds like you're talking about people who want to play ONE role only and think for some reason it may be suitable for all situations?

Groups wanting specific skill sets and elitism exist in all games and will come up regardless of "conventional trees" or not. So people who conform to the social constructs and the folks who create them are to blame here. So the people being led down very specific skill configurations are being led by whom? And why are they in that situation forcing them to choose specifics?

Your social constructs comparing TSW's skill wheel to skill tree is quite the topic...

 

 

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by eyelolled

phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

thanks for all the responses btw

Your X not being viable in one situation may be viable in anther where Y is not.

Sounds like you're talking about people who want to play ONE role only and think for some reason it may be suitable for all situations?

Groups wanting specific skill sets and elitism exist in all games and will come up regardless of "conventional trees" or not. So people who conform to the social constructs and the folks who create them are to blame here. So the people being led down very specific skill configurations are being led by whom? And why are they in that situation forcing them to choose specifics?

Your social constructs comparing TSW's skill wheel to skill tree is quite the topic...

 

 

It's simply a perception.  I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim to fully understand all the problems.  I've just been watching threads and taking the claims made by people and looked at it as a whole.  Sure the ability to change and modify ones skills to allow them to play multiple styles is nice in theory, but people have a desire to play in a particular fashion.  That simple fact alone negates the usefullness of three quarters the skills available. And if a persons particular playstyle is not feasible, then they are limited even more. 

So sure, the open skill wheel might be well received by people that want to play multiple playstyles, but the people that are more specific don't feel it the same.  Actually picking a class, and then choosing the skills from the tree may make more sense to them.

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread.  Are you trying to talk yourself out of getting the game?  While some people have come here and said they don't like the system, plenty of others do.  All you can do is try it for yourself.

People always find the most effective builds with systems like this. That's why these types of systems are criticized. "Look at all these options" but only a few are viable.

Originally posted by cronius77
these were the issues that i talked about at the begining when it released and why i left the game myself. You are forced into specific builds for specific tasks and that limits the open illusion of the skill system and my biggest gripe besides pvp. I just hated how you have a few builds that work and the rest are crap. If i want to use one weapon for example and pick and trade between the other weapon sets passives thats an open skill system not an illusion . The secret world is not an open skill system anymore then rifts soul system or SWG open system before the NGE. As it stands when i left some might of changed you had to weapon swap constantly just to do open world content and it takes the fun out of what you want to build as your main build. If you solo you take a rifle build with sword , if you want to tank you take a hammer build, if you want to heal you go with blood etc etc. Its just not a system that is spectacular and quite boring at its roots.

Apparently you didnt play much.  The best tank builds were Chaos (hammer was by far the worst).  Soloing can be done with any build, my first guy did hammer/shotgun to QL10 and my new guy is doing Sword/Fist Affliction build both are very solid, in fact any build that has synergy is pretty solid for soloing IMO.

 

Like I said, the issue isnt with the skills themselves, its the selective toolset used within the build.  Theres a reason why taunts, detaunts, and CC removal effects were placed in the [misc] trees as to not put in those types of skills in every tree,  the problem is you are required to have purge, cleanse and inturrupts in Nightmare modes and since only a very few trees have those abilities then everyone is pigeonholed into playing those weapon sets.  This is the ONLY reason why this system isnt working.  As soon as the developers come to the conclusion that Purge, cleanse and inturrupts are just as, if not more important then taunts, detaunts thyen the issue will only be exaserbated.

Originally posted by MindTrigger
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread.  Are you trying to talk yourself out of getting the game?  While some people have come here and said they don't like the system, plenty of others do.  All you can do is try it for yourself.

I'm just trying to discuss it.  I'm looking for input from both sides.

Originally posted by eyelolled
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

This is one of the reasons I stopped playing.  There were quite a few "good" builds out there, that would excel in one or more of grouping, soloing, PvP, etc.  On the other hand, I've noticed there were a lot of "bad" builds, that made you have to earn additional skill points just to correct the mess of a character you made, instead of continuing on the build you thought would work.  Of course people will state, "That's the fun of the skill wheel, experimenting."  I can see how some were hyped abount the TSW skill wheel, I thought it was a fun idea.  However, when you try to create a legit build of your character, just to have it fumble, because X skill wouldn't synergize with Y skill, it sucks the fun out of it.

The best of this system is we don't need reroll and progress your main everytime you play..if progress they are

Originally posted by jusomdude
People always find the most effective builds with systems like this. That's why these types of systems are criticized. "Look at all these options" but only a few are viable.

I'm constantly changing my build on the fly, and it's fun to do so.  You people sound like you haven't spent any time in the game at all.  Go play it, then come back and talk about it.

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Originally posted by eyelolled

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Originally posted by Eluldor

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Originally posted by eyelolled phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to. As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak. thanks for all the responses btw

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Your X not being viable in one situation may be viable in anther where Y is not. Sounds like you're talking about people who want to play ONE role only and think for some reason it may be suitable for all situations? Groups wanting specific skill sets and elitism exist in all games and will come up regardless of "conventional trees" or not. So people who conform to the social constructs and the folks who create them are to blame here. So the people being led down very specific skill configurations are being led by whom? And why are they in that situation forcing them to choose specifics? Your social constructs comparing TSW's skill wheel to skill tree is quite the topic...    

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It's simply a perception.  I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim to fully understand all the problems.  I've just been watching threads and taking the claims made by people and looked at it as a whole.  Sure the ability to change and modify ones skills to allow them to play multiple styles is nice in theory, but people have a desire to play in a particular fashion.  That simple fact alone negates the usefullness of three quarters the skills available. And if a persons particular playstyle is not feasible, then they are limited even more. 

So sure, the open skill wheel might be well received by people that want to play multiple playstyles, but the people that are more specific don't feel it the same.  Actually picking a class, and then choosing the skills from the tree may make more sense to them.

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It might help the discussion if you gave some real world examples. From what you said I keep getting the image of people trying to heal by punching people in the head with a shot gun. People will do all sorts of nonsensical things and then complain about the fact that those things don't work.

People not having a clue should stop making bald claims.

First of all, you can't master the content by using a single set of abilities. You need to swap out actives and passives all the time, as mobs require you to have certain abilites to beat them.

Second, the skill-system provides you with the option to have several options to beat different mobs, not only a single one. You can specialize your deck into focus, burst, blast, strike-attacks for example and trigger passives that way. You can go for burst-DPS, tank-DPS, or selfheal etc.

I for example switch out builds just for the fun of it and to not get bored by using the same old deck over and over again. I can quest through Transylvania with 10 different builds and all do work to beat the mobs. No problem at all and no requirement to play a very specific build.

And last but not least, the skillsystem of TSW allows us to play every role in the game with a single character by just swapping out abilities and gear. In other MMOs I need to roll atleast three characters, to have a DD, heal and tank and even more if I want to have a melee-DD, range-DD, HoT-heal, AoE-tank, etc etc etc...

So yeah, the skillsystem is hundred times better then the conventional classes of other MMOs.

Originally posted by eyelolled
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

I'm hearing more and more

 

So you don't actually play the game. There seems to be alot of people who don't play the game hanging out here.

Originally posted by TalulaRose

Originally posted by eyelolled
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

I'm hearing more and more

 

So you don't actually play the game. There seems to be alot of people who don't play the game hanging out here.

Yep.  That's about right.

Originally posted by eyelolled
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

Sounds like you're talking to people who don't really understand TSW's build system - either that or have unrealistic expectations.

In TSW, you have to experiment until you find a combination of abilities that fits your particular playstyle like a glove.

But not just one combination - you need to find several closely-related combinations, suitable for solo, teamwork, single target, AoE, and (if you're into teaming) the various roles you can play (given what your weapon can do - i.e. all weapons can DPS, but some are more suited to support as a second role, some to tanking, and some to healing).

And also you need to be aware of abilities you might have to swap in to deal with specific kinds of mobs.

But at no time do you have to play in a style that's uncomfortable to you, if you don't want to.

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by TalulaRose

Originally posted by eyelolled
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

I'm hearing more and more

 

So you don't actually play the game. There seems to be alot of people who don't play the game hanging out here.

Yep.  That's about right.

I didn't think that I ever implied that I did play the game, however I've had an interest in the game since it was announced and have every right to question the system as much as anybody.  The fact remains, that Funcom has been vocal about this "innovative skill system"  and I am just looking for input from both active players and people that have moved on, about the actual merit for the improvement.