Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.  

 

Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. 

 

But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.

You could make the same argument about any game without levels couldn't you?  

I think this "gear is levels" nonsence has a lot to do with people trying to force a tsw round peg into a wow shaped square hole of how they think mmo progression works.

Despite it being a sandbox, I personally feel tsw has more in common progression wise with eve than it does with typical themepark mmos. You expand in raw power early game but the majority of the games is about played longer > got more options

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think this "gear is levels" nonsence has a lot to do with people trying to force a tsw round peg into a wow shaped square hole of how they think mmo progression works.

Despite it being a sandbox, I personally feel tsw has more in common progression wise with eve than it does with typical themepark mmos. You expand in raw power early game but the majority of the games is about played longer > got more options

 Not a sandbox. Kinda sandboxie...but not. More like a "true" themepark in which, like Disney Land, you get to pick which ride to ride and when.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Kuinn

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I get what you're saying. Progression in any form can (will) be compared to levels more or less. It's just that, concrete "hard" levels does not have to be a rule. I thought the progression would not be so straight forward as in most RPG's, but it pretty much is.

 

It's not a bad thing, I've gotten used to, and have no problem with that in about any rpg/mmorpg, I just thought the system would be vastly different based on the basic information and by most striking hyping chants heh, and because I believe the system can be vastly different if only someone wants to actually make it so.

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It doesn't really matter what you do with it, it's still going to be some form of progression. Developing a character to become something other than what you start with is a baseline mechanic of RPG and the fantasy stories that helped fuel the creation of the games. Even if a game doesn't have any sort of progression mechanics built in (like a Minecraft public server), players will still engage in forms of progression by claiming land or collecting diamonds to sell in a marketplace. It's just a fundamental aspect of the genre. If you play an RPG, you will somehow progress, whether it's with levels, skills, gear or some combination of the three.

 

 

Yeah, I've played computer RPG's for over 15 years, I have pretty good idea of what a computer RPG can be or cant be, and the basic formula very much is the passive-power-levels system where you get stronger when a number gets bigger in your char sheet.

 

Personally, I think a MMORPG would be better with a lot softer system, not boxing people into small areas for their current level range. Afterall a MMORPG is a game with huge open world where thousands of people set off to adventure right? So why is it that devs make games where you only spend time in an area untill you level past it and then it becomes useless for you?

 

All I'm saying, as a veteran computer RPG player that MMORPG's would do better with a system where hard passive power-levels are not present, where progression is handled by world events, knowledge of the gameworld, quests, faction standings, ability & skill progression, non-meta achievements, various unlocks, items, puzzles and the likes (TSW does some of this, hooray for that, however while also utilizing the passive power-level system). There's a ton of possibilities to handle progression, without dropping people into a world where you can draw your in-game roadmap entirely based on level ranges, rendering the open world useless besides a few "endgame" areas and instanced content eventually.

 

TSW does not go entirely into the basic category since you can equip and un-equip levels in this game, but it pretty much has still the same system where an old area is a meaningless and easy chore once you've leveled past it, and you have no business into later basic areas if you are not high enough level, once again boxing the content into slices based on passive power-level.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think this "gear is levels" nonsence has a lot to do with people trying to force a tsw round peg into a wow shaped square hole of how they think mmo progression works.

Despite it being a sandbox, I personally feel tsw has more in common progression wise with eve than it does with typical themepark mmos. You expand in raw power early game but the majority of the games is about played longer > got more options

Curious to why you call it a sandbox?

Even Ragnar has called it (quoting from memory): "A Themepark where you can catch any ride you like".

Originally posted by Kuinn

TSW does not go entirely into the basic category since you can equip and un-equip levels in this game, but it pretty much has still the same system where an old area is a meaningless and easy chore once you've leveled past it, and you have no business into later basic areas if you are not high enough level, once again boxing the content into slices based on passive power-level.

I went from a QL1 to a QL3 weapon and my damage increased by.... 10%*. Your player skill and build matters more than the gear within a few quality levels. Since about half the game is QL8 or higher, the difference in damage output is really low.

My point is that about half the game is what other games would have called "endgame" and consists of a fairly horizontal progression through skills and gear.

*It's worth noting that a player with too low weapon skill gets a chance to glance a harder mob, this is not true in the other direction.

Originally posted by Kuinn

 

Personally, I think a MMORPG would be better with a lot softer system, not boxing people into small areas for their current level range. Afterall a MMORPG is a game with huge open world where thousands of people set off to adventure right? So why is it that devs make games where you only spend time in an area untill you level past it and then it becomes useless for you?

 

All I'm saying, as a veteran computer RPG player that MMORPG's would do better with a system where hard passive power-levels are not present, where progression is handled by world events, knowledge of the gameworld, quests, faction standings, ability & skill progression, non-meta achievements, various unlocks, items, puzzles and the likes (TSW does some of this, hooray for that, however while also utilizing the passive power-level system). There's a ton of possibilities to handle progression, without dropping people into a world where you can draw your in-game roadmap entirely based on level ranges, rendering the open world useless besides a few "endgame" areas and instanced content eventually.

 

TSW does not go entirely into the basic category since you can equip and un-equip levels in this game, but it pretty much has still the same system where an old area is a meaningless and easy chore once you've leveled past it, and you have no business into later basic areas if you are not high enough level, once again boxing the content into slices based on passive power-level.

Really ? So, as a newb, did you explore all the warehouses at the Kingsmouth airport, the ones infested with packs of zombies that a character in QL3 weapons/gear can't even scratch ? And that little cove full of Filth-infected mobs near the Overlook Motel in SC ?

There is high-level content in the starter areas, whether players want to go "back" for it or not is up to them.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Really ? So, as a newb, did you explore all the warehouses at the Kingsmouth airport, the ones infested with packs of zombies that a character in QL3 weapons/gear can't even scratch ? And that little cove full of Filth-infected mobs near the Overlook Motel in SC ?

There is high-level content in the starter areas, whether players want to go "back" for it or not is up to them.

 Yeah...it seems that every zone has at least one area with higher level content compared to the rest of the zone.

Blackbrd:

I was referring to eve as the sandbox, not tsw obviously tsw is a themepark (but its progression curve reminds me of eve which us a sandbox)

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Originally posted by Kuinn
<lots of snip> 

All I'm saying, as a veteran computer RPG player that MMORPG's would do better with a system where hard passive power-levels are not present, where progression is handled by world events, knowledge of the gameworld, quests, faction standings, ability & skill progression, non-meta achievements, various unlocks, items, puzzles and the likes (TSW does some of this, hooray for that, however while also utilizing the passive power-level system). There's a ton of possibilities to handle progression, without dropping people into a world where you can draw your in-game roadmap entirely based on level ranges, rendering the open world useless besides a few "endgame" areas and instanced content eventually.

TSW does not go entirely into the basic category since you can equip and un-equip levels in this game, but it pretty much has still the same system where an old area is a meaningless and easy chore once you've leveled past it, and you have no business into later basic areas if you are not high enough level, once again boxing the content into slices based on passive power-level.

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Paragraph One: I'm pretty sure I agree. I'd like to see a system less distinct than what TSW uses.

Paragraph Two: I think that's because having combat related incentives to not skip content are easy to implement, and they are effective. I'd want to ask an actual developer why it's so important to keep people together from Area to Area.

I agree, gear does determine your level. The system suggests the difficulty of enemies based the highest skill value of your equipped weapons (NOT, the quality level of the weapons themselves). Your talisman skills should also be kept around the same value for optimal results.

The highest skill value of your equipped weapons is determining your level, that's what determines the difficultly color on an enemy and also how much experience you get from them.

If your gear is below that level than you are under geared and enemies that are white, for example, will be harder than the game thinks they should be for you and will probably be more like a yellow. 

Having mix quality level gear also means you are under geared for your skill 'level'.

Just like being level 60 in another game and having equipment ranging from level 30-50 requirement means you are under geared and will perform worse than someone useing a full level 60 set. The same applys in TSW, if you have level 10 skills but are only using QL 5-7 equipment then you are undergeared.

Skill level = Level of gear you can wear = Your level

Builds play a major part in your killing ability though, but your skill levels determine what you should be wearing, where you should be questing, what you should be killing and how much exp you get from said kills... just like traditional levels do.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Kuinn

 

Personally, I think a MMORPG would be better with a lot softer system, not boxing people into small areas for their current level range. Afterall a MMORPG is a game with huge open world where thousands of people set off to adventure right? So why is it that devs make games where you only spend time in an area untill you level past it and then it becomes useless for you?

 

All I'm saying, as a veteran computer RPG player that MMORPG's would do better with a system where hard passive power-levels are not present, where progression is handled by world events, knowledge of the gameworld, quests, faction standings, ability & skill progression, non-meta achievements, various unlocks, items, puzzles and the likes (TSW does some of this, hooray for that, however while also utilizing the passive power-level system). There's a ton of possibilities to handle progression, without dropping people into a world where you can draw your in-game roadmap entirely based on level ranges, rendering the open world useless besides a few "endgame" areas and instanced content eventually.

 

TSW does not go entirely into the basic category since you can equip and un-equip levels in this game, but it pretty much has still the same system where an old area is a meaningless and easy chore once you've leveled past it, and you have no business into later basic areas if you are not high enough level, once again boxing the content into slices based on passive power-level.

Really ? So, as a newb, did you explore all the warehouses at the Kingsmouth airport, the ones infested with packs of zombies that a character in QL3 weapons/gear can't even scratch ? And that little cove full of Filth-infected mobs near the Overlook Motel in SC ?

There is high-level content in the starter areas, whether players want to go "back" for it or not is up to them.

 

This is true, that there's high-level content in starter areas, which is a great thing, something that TOR for example missed completely. However, my point still stands, what you are actually quoting, that the content you have out-leveled becomes meaningless, which is most of the areas.

 

It does not make the content bad, I love the content in TSW, the questing is fresh and fun, but read the green part once more.

 

I just expected something else based on the hype/advertisement from fans and Funcom, because it can be done differently, and actually without levels, while also making it to work. Anyway I like the game, I even spent 5€ on the item shop to get the aviator glasses!

This gear is your level thing.

If your in level 10 gear only halfway through the quest content, how does that work then?

It doesn't because the game is about both horizontal and vertical progression and when you hit mid game its way mire about the former than the later.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
This gear is your level thing.

If your in level 10 gear only halfway through the quest content, how does that work then?

It doesn't because the game is about both horizontal and vertical progression and when you hit mid game its way mire about the former than the later.

Just means you reach cap fast, just like in GW1. In fact, it's exactly like GW1 just without the level number. At that point when you have all level 10 gear, if you've chosen all the right skills and socketed all the right glyths, you could have a top notch endgame build as well. There's just very little before game (compared to most other MMOs) and lots of endgame, like GW1 also.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by ShakyMo
This gear is your level thing.

If your in level 10 gear only halfway through the quest content, how does that work then?

It doesn't because the game is about both horizontal and vertical progression and when you hit mid game its way mire about the former than the later.

Just means you reach cap fast, just like in GW1. In fact, it's exactly like GW1 just without the level number. At that point when you have all level 10 gear, if you've chosen all the right skills and socketed all the right glyths, you could have a top notch endgame build as well. There's just very little before game (compared to most other MMOs) and lots of endgame, like GW1 also.

 Does anyone know the level of range though between different types of QL10 gear? I mean if there are varying drops in Nightmares and regular dungeons you still could have a pretty big gap in QL10 gear. The difference in stats between a normal QL piece and blue dungeon piece is rather significant.

Originally posted by Terronte

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Can someone fill me in on what crime has been comitted here, exactly? Why all the debate over something being exactly what it's supposed to be? Are you people that desperate for something to argue about?

I think it's basically every game uses all this marketing speak to say what it has or doesn't. I suppose the issue is this game is as level based as any other, despite the clever marketing.

Well, I don't know if it's "tricky marketing", and am not sure why they would need to trick anyone. I'm not aware of anyone who out and out hates leveling of any kind to the point that they wouldn't play any game with it. They'd have a pretty short "games I will play" list if that were so. So, I don't see it as being something Funcom, or any developer, would need to "trick people" with.

TSW does not have levels in the traditional sense, just as it does not have classes in the traditional sense.

It has skill-based progression and various "builds" (aka 'decks').

I don't recall anyone from Funcom ever saying "TSW is a progression-less MMORPG". I do recall them saying "it's a non level-based system". I don't know about anyone else, but when I think of "level-based", I think character levels, as in level 1, 30, 50, etc. And in that context, they're correct. It is not a level-based MMORPG.

Like I said before... there are skill-based progression systems, and level-based (as in character level) progression systems, among others. TSW has the former. Or, you can look at it as gear-based progression if you want to look strictly at the "QL" of various gear.

Regardless.. it's not a "level-based" system in the traditional sense, and I think anyone trying to spin it that way is performing some interesting logical acrobatics.

 

Now, having read through more threads and seeing some of the rather spiteful posts by some, it seems to me there are people who are, perhaps, bitter because TSW didn't have the disaster of a launch they were hoping for. The game has been well-received overall, both critically and by players. And it's actually turned out to be a pretty successful launch for Funcom.

Some folks are not getting the rolling trainwreck in progress they gleefully anticipated. Quite the opposite. So, now they have to find other things to nit-pick at to try and bring it down instead.

If that's so, and the worst they can come up with is to split semantic hairs over whether or not its progression system is "level based", just so they can say "a ha! Funcom lied!" -  a dubious claim at best - then I'd say TSW doing damn well. To those people, have fun fussing over petty non-issues, I guess?

I've been playing quite a lot since I first got it (going on 2 days play time so far) and I've crashed exactly once. I've had smooth performance, even in high traffic areas. Other than the chat system issue, which is being worked on, and some random camera or rendering quirks, I've had no problems with the game that have been even remotely game-breaking or that ruined my experience. It's been a great ride so far.

 

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.  

 

Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. 

 

But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.

So basically instead of removing the endless gear treadmill they actually found a way of making the gear treadmill worse?! didn't think that was possible but okay.

Oh, so you never played Anarchy Online, a game that was out long before WoW was and introduced this type of gear system... or any other MMO that has had a similar position in game playover the last 2 decades.

I don't know if it has been stated in this thread, but..

What you "con" versus mobs has nothing to do with what you have equipped. Seriously.

Go up to a mob. It's yellow. Unequip your talismans and weapons. Still yellow.

Now go into your skills and put a point into your two main weapons. Should have shifted to white.

Your skill level for the highest TWO weapons AND your 3 talisman skills are what determines your level. Not your equips. After all, those are the only things holding back what you can equip or not, just like in, say, WoW where you have to be 85 to equip the best gear. At rank 10 of Blades, you can equip the best blade.

Originally posted by Kuinn

People may call this "system" whatever they want, but it damn well feels pretty much the same as levels in other games, and it certainly was a dissapointment as I expected this game to have vastly different kind of a system.

 

It's not a gamebreaker at all, just feels like I got promised something else/new, but ended up with the same stuff in different wrapping (considering this feature). It feels like the old system disguised as something else, the difference is that gear and levels are now combined into one, the result is very similar to the basic formulae, just imagine any basic mmorpg where you could actually equip/unequip levels.

 

Good thing is, if a friend decides to try the game later, you can equip lower level for your self and go play with the friend without being overpowered by default / by level.

Who cares its fun.

Originally posted by Jesterftk

i have a QL 8 Hammer and a ql 1 shotgun. rest is a mix of 3 -8.

What level am i?

 

This second post was basically /thread.