Originally posted by Krytycal

Originally posted by Candomble

Originally posted by Krytycal

So like I said way back, it's not mindless two-button spamming once you learn the system.

 

Herein lies the problem. You are using 4-5 buttons to do what other builds can accomplish with two. This would normally not be a problem, except there is a limit of how many abilities you can actually use. Those who only use 2-3 abilities for DPS can do just as much damage and in addition will have more room for defensive abilities and CC, and thus kick your ass.

 

The massive homogenization of abilties and the 7/7 limit actually punishes you for using more than 2-3 bread-and-butter attacks. Thus leading to incredibly repetitive gameplay being the most effective way to play the game.

No they can't. Only if you are using the wrong skills.

I can and I do. I can show you as soon as the servers come back up. 

What abilities are you using?  And are you QL10 from FATE vs non-QL10 people whom didn't level themselves up the same way?

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by Krytycal

Originally posted by Candomble

Originally posted by Krytycal

So like I said way back, it's not mindless two-button spamming once you learn the system.

 

Herein lies the problem. You are using 4-5 buttons to do what other builds can accomplish with two. This would normally not be a problem, except there is a limit of how many abilities you can actually use. Those who only use 2-3 abilities for DPS can do just as much damage and in addition will have more room for defensive abilities and CC, and thus kick your ass.

 

The massive homogenization of abilties and the 7/7 limit actually punishes you for using more than 2-3 bread-and-butter attacks. Thus leading to incredibly repetitive gameplay being the most effective way to play the game.

No they can't. Only if you are using the wrong skills.

I can and I do. I can show you as soon as the servers come back up. 

What abilities are you using?  And are you QL10 from FATE vs non-QL10 people whom didn't level themselves up the same way?

So you say that abilities that insta build 5 resources, mob debuffers or char buffers, or weapon / ability sinergies, do not improve your dps? 

The resource building attacks is one of the worst design decisions of this game as far as combat goes.  That, and the fact that a lot of resource burners have no cooldowns associated with them.  You can literally play the game off 2 skills if you wanted to for any setup.  While adding a few more skills help, most are limited use and situational (aside from the elite).

I've had a few people in my community complain about the combat in the videos I've made already about how I'm pretty much just spamming my resource builder the whole time.  Though the instances and encounters are generally well designed the combat doesn't do the game much justice.  If I had to pick one aspect of the game I don't like the most it would be the combat for sure and that's generally a REALLY important part of liking the game for me.

Here are full videos of the first two dungeons where you can see I'm pretty much spamming my resource builder the whole time and only really make use of two other skills in rotation while my other skills are extremely situational:

Polaris

Hell Raised

EDIT:  One more thing worth mentioning is how terrible the support skills are.  They don't last very long, there isn't enough of them, and they don't really feel like they have a powerful effect on the group.  In other MMOs group support skills are one of the most powerful ways you can increase your party (or raid's) DPS and in TSW they almost feel like a wasted slot.

I was talking about DPS and don't know how healing is.

However if you can go through an instance using only 2 heals, something is wrong; how much mobs hit, how much healing abilities do, gear outleveling the instance, healing design problems, don't know, but something is wrong there in the game.

It's worth noting that you are doing the two first dungeons in the game on the lowest difficulty they come in. Your builds or execution doesn't need to be top-notch to do these, especially since you will have a quite limited selection at this point. The game gets a bit more difficult along the way as you get access to more abilities.

Originally posted by Candomble

I was talking about DPS and don't know how healing is.

However if you can go through an instance using only 2 heals, something is wrong; how much mobs hit, how much healing abilities do, gear outleveling the instance, healing design problems, don't know, but something is wrong there in the game.

Seen screenshots of healers running with 5+ heals and the rest being support abilities.

Think about HoTs. Those stack. Why put 2 on the main tank when you can put 3 or 4? etc.

I would imagine as you unlock better passives and find better gear, you could drop the amount of HoTs on the main tank from 4 to 3 and then maybe even to 2, but that's how it goes when you overgear content. It requires less effort.

Another consideration is how many passives you spent buffing the hell out of those heals, even if it's only 2 of them. If, hypothetically, all 7 of your passives benefit your 2 heals, then you effectively spent 9 our of 14 slots for it.

Originally posted by Blackbrrd

It's worth noting that you are doing the two first dungeons in the game on the lowest difficulty they come in. Your builds or execution doesn't need to be top-notch to do these, especially since you will have a quite limited selection at this point. The game gets a bit more difficult along the way as you get access to more abilities.

Looking at the abilities though and as a thereocrafter I can tell you that is mostly BS.  I already fully unlocked an outer tier in Blood.  The other Blood healing trees are mostly the same (the only ability I might want to add is the "chain" heal) in fact a lot of abilities are similar just with different numbers.  The one thing that might change is I'd get better fist healing skills and rotate those in for the HoT effect so my rotation would be as complicated as 4 skills with the ocassional use of 1 extra.  If I bind my resource builders to 1 and 2 and the others to 3 and 4 it would look something like this:

1, 1, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 4 repeat ad infinitum.  Right now this game is making WoW rotations look complex.

There are numerous problems right now:

• The game relies too much on the "resource builder" which means you'll be spamming it for resources constantly.
• Since most skills have no cooldowns there isn't much reason to not spam your best skills over and over.
• Passives are way too specific, meaning there is no little reason to use Scarlet Arts over Angelic Aegis as an example because the passive for it is way too good.  I still use it in the dungeon, but honestly I would have been just as (possibly more so) effective using just that one skill as my resource consumer.
• Abilities aren't balanced at all.
• Many abilities are similar. (I have the exciting choice of being able to create a stronger barrier and minor heal on my resource builder or a weaker barrier and stronger heal on my resource builder!)
• Support skills suck.
• There isn't much need to go down misc trees for aggro reduction and hate building as tank aggro doesn't seem to be an issue at all without it.

Originally posted by Blacknd

Originally posted by Candomble

I was talking about DPS and don't know how healing is.

However if you can go through an instance using only 2 heals, something is wrong; how much mobs hit, how much healing abilities do, gear outleveling the instance, healing design problems, don't know, but something is wrong there in the game.

Seen screenshots of healers running with 5+ heals and the rest being support abilities.

Think about HoTs. Those stack. Why put 2 on the main tank when you can put 3 or 4? etc.

I would imagine as you unlock better passives and find better gear, you could drop the amount of HoTs on the main tank from 4 to 3 and then maybe even to 2, but that's how it goes when you overgear content. It requires less effort.

Another consideration is how many passives you spent buffing the hell out of those heals, even if it's only 2 of them. If, hypothetically, all 7 of your passives benefit your 2 heals, then you effectively spent 9 our of 14 slots for it.

HoTs are only available through the fist tree and like the blood "Afflicted" they might stack from individual healers, but they don't stack from each individual HoT cast by the player.  The HoT effect from the fist HoT healed for a whooping 12HP a tick in QL 5 gear while my barriers were healing for 100 and placing a barrier on the target.  Since both are spammable there is little reason to use the HoT resource builder at the moment as building up 1/3 of a use of the more powerful heal gives more of a benefit than the HoT does over 10 seconds (and that's WITH the passive).  I don't know who handles the numbers at Funcom, but they really need to learn some math.

Originally posted by Magnum2103
...

I haven't played a healer like this, but it does sound like you are only healing and not doing any damage?

Regarding the resource building mechanic, see my post earlier in this thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5086472 about how you can use resource consumers without building resources one at a time through assorted mechanics.

Originally posted by Redemp

 Does it ever get any better? Excuse my lack of patience but my typical rotation was " 2 - 1 1 1 1 1 - 2 - 4 - 1 1 1 1 1 - 2 - 4 " , with only my utility abilities being my wild cards. Is spamming the resource building skill ever marganilzed, is it addressed in the CB ... because currently it feels like a HUGE flaw making combat tedous and finger straining.

Unfortunatey, no. It doesn't seem to.

A friend and I were playing around w/ some insta-cast builds. There are some skills that can be used w/ out resources, however there's not enough of them. And, maybe this was different for some people, but with the parts of the tree my friend & messed around w/, we found that the resource builders / spenders were the way to go if you wanted a viable build. Any build we tried to use to get away from this mechanic just didn't work all that well.

Using some of these skills help, but unfortunately all classes basically work off this mechanic from what I've seen.

Originally posted by Blackbrrd

Originally posted by Magnum2103
...

I haven't played a healer like this, but it does sound like you are only healing and not doing any damage?

Regarding the resource building mechanic, see my post earlier in this thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5086472 about how you can use resource consumers without building resources one at a time through assorted mechanics.

I've only had reason to do damage on one fight so far.  Why do damage when I can spam heal the entire time?  Hybriding is not as effective as focusing on one role, any thereocrafter could tell you that.

Originally posted by Magnum2103

HoTs are only available through the fist tree and like the blood "Afflicted" they might stack from individual healers, but they don't stack from each individual HoT cast by the player.  The HoT effect from the fist HoT healed for a whooping 12HP a tick in QL 5 gear while my barriers were healing for 100 and placing a barrier on the target.  Since both are spammable there is little reason to use the HoT resource builder at the moment as building up 1/3 of a use of the more powerful heal gives more of a benefit than the HoT does over 10 seconds (and that's WITH the passive).  I don't know who handles the numbers at Funcom, but they really need to learn some math.

Ya, the healer I was rolling w/ said the same thing.

According to him he found that pretty much the only viable way to go for healing seemed to be blood / ar. Decent damage from AR + leech, and with blood, as soon as you get linked veins & cold blooded it's a no brainer. You get AOE shielding, & heals out the arse.

i think developers should start looking other way of combat, more actiony or something with no resource building. Resource building promotes the 2 button mashing combat.

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

follow this repetitions a few more times and the monster is dead.

Only 7 active skills on the hotbar 3 builders and 4 finishers, only 2 animations for all skills then why not use 1 builder and 1 finisher?... let the mashing begins.... again.

same routine.....

that happens with the resource building skill system.

At least WoW and Rift have a huge variety of different spells on screen to use at any given time...... with different spell visual effect most of them and more flowing animations. Although those 2 games also have the mashing part when it comes to build build buuild then finish.

Originally posted by Magnum2103

I've only had reason to do damage on one fight so far.  Why do damage when I can spam heal the entire time?  Hybriding is not as effective as focusing on one role, any thereocrafter could tell you that.

Well, you are assuming every fight is basically tank-and-spank, which you are quite right, many can be if you are overgeared. Some abilities and encounters probably need some tuning though, to keep them interesting and not a 2-ability spam fest.

Originally posted by rojo6934

i think developers should start looking other way of combat, more actiony or something with no resource building. Resource building promotes the 2 button mashing combat.

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

follow this repetitions a few more times and the monster is dead.

Only 7 active skills on the hotbar 3 builders and 4 finishers, only 2 animations for all skills then why not use 1 builder and 1 finisher?... let the mashing begins.... again.

same routine.....

that happens with the resource building skill system.

At least WoW and Rift have a huge variety of different spells on screen to use at any given time...... with different spell visual effect most of them and more flowing animations. Although those 2 games also have the mashing part when it comes to build build buuild then finish.

About the hotbar, well, you choose what you place there. If you wanto to waste room with 3 builders and 4 finishers it's your problem, not the game.

Talking about animations, we are playing different versions, for sure. Mine as a lot more.

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Originally posted by rojo6934
i think developers should start looking other way of combat, more actiony or something with no resource building. Resource building promotes the 2 button mashing combat.

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

follow this repetitions a few more times and the monster is dead.

Only 7 active skills on the hotbar 3 builders and 4 finishers, only 2 animations for all skills then why not use 1 builder and 1 finisher?... let the mashing begins.... again.

same routine.....

that happens with the resource building skill system.

At least WoW and Rift have a huge variety of different spells on screen to use at any given time...... with different spell visual effect most of them and more flowing animations. Although those 2 games also have the mashing part when it comes to build build buuild then finish.

---

Your deck should include 2 builders (one per ressource), 2 finishers (1 single target / 1 AoE) and 3 utility-abilities. If you try something else, then you're doing it wrong.

And if you think that all skills use the same animations, then you're looking at a way outdated version of the game.

There's nothing wrong with this system, especially when you need to use different decks for different tasks/mobs. And in WoW I've basically only used 10 skills at max aswell. A typical rotation in the raid used some 5 skills maximum.

Originally posted by Yalexy

 

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Originally posted by rojo6934
i think developers should start looking other way of combat, more actiony or something with no resource building. Resource building promotes the 2 button mashing combat.

 

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

mash mash mash mash mash finisher

follow this repetitions a few more times and the monster is dead.

Only 7 active skills on the hotbar 3 builders and 4 finishers, only 2 animations for all skills then why not use 1 builder and 1 finisher?... let the mashing begins.... again.

same routine.....

that happens with the resource building skill system.

At least WoW and Rift have a huge variety of different spells on screen to use at any given time...... with different spell visual effect most of them and more flowing animations. Although those 2 games also have the mashing part when it comes to build build buuild then finish.

---

 

Your deck should include 2 builders (one per ressource), 2 finishers (1 single target / 1 AoE) and 3 utility-abilities. If you try something else, then you're doing it wrong.

And if you think that all skills use the same animations, then you're looking at a way outdated version of the game.

There's nothing wrong with this system, especially when you need to use different decks for different tasks/mobs. And in WoW I've basically only used 10 skills at max aswell. A typical rotation in the raid used some 5 skills maximum.

most builders build resources for both weapons... my build has

1- healing skill

2- builder

3- consumer 1

4- consumer 2

5- elite skill

6- support 1

7- support 2

I'm a tank so I don't need that many attacks.

[quote]Originally posted by rpgalonmost builders build resources for both weapons... my build has

1- healing skill

2- builder

3- consumer 1

4- consumer 2

5- elite skill

6- support 1

7- support 2

I'm a tank so I don't need that many attacks.[/b][/quote]

That's true, most builder build ressources for every attack, there's differences however, especially when looking at the abilities in the outer wheel.