I never was interested in anything Funcom before. I played some AoC for a friend but never quite hooked. It wasn't my type of game.

I don't mean to hate on this game quite so much, and possibly should apologize, but I'm initimately familiar with the combat and all I see is the same abilities spammed again and again.

My biggest complaint, as I've said before, is this 7/7 nonsense. Seven abilities makes me feel like I want nothing to do with CDs because .. I want to have a complex and fun game. Each ability with a 20, 25, or even 90 second cooldown on my bars takes away from the precious seven. It makes my rotation and combat style that much simpler.

I think the game could do a lot in just expanding to 10 each or 14 each. At least in abilities. The balance of passives might be too delicate to just *do this*.

I feel like charges and jumpbacks are fun, but I feel like any toys like this that I have equipped just simplify my rotation.

Funcom makes it different by describing something wildly different. Build your own class they said. They lied.

nope they didnt.

But isnt it based on builders not cooldowns?

The system is pretty much Rifts system, just with a wheel rather than a tree.

I really dont know why people seem to not listen/call troll to me and others wo say blantanly obvious things months beforehand, then cry foul at launch or the last marketing beta. 

Originally posted by Deathofsage

I never was interested in anything Funcom before. I played some AoC for a friend but never quite hooked. It wasn't my type of game.

I don't mean to hate on this game quite so much, and possibly should apologize, but I'm initimately familiar with the combat and all I see is the same abilities spammed again and again.

My biggest complaint, as I've said before, is this 7/7 nonsense. Seven abilities makes me feel like I want nothing to do with CDs because .. I want to have a complex and fun game. Each ability with a 20, 25, or even 90 second cooldown on my bars takes away from the precious seven. It makes my rotation and combat style that much simpler.

I think the game could do a lot in just expanding to 10 each or 14 each. At least in abilities. The balance of passives might be too delicate to just *do this*.

I feel like charges and jumpbacks are fun, but I feel like any toys like this that I have equipped just simplify my rotation.

Funcom makes it different by describing something wildly different. Build your own class they said. They lied.

nah, 7/7 is good.

I will help with your build:

 

7 ACTIVE

1- Builder

2- 1st weapon spender

3- 2nd weapon spender

4- Elite Active

5- Utility

6- Utility

7- Utility

 

7 PASSIVE

1- Elite Passive

2- Utility

3- Utility

4- Utility

5- Utility

6- Utility

7- Utility

Originally posted by DaezAster

But isnt it based on builders not cooldowns?

Yes, but there is a GCD, skills have cast times, and the more powerful finishers have cooldowns.

You can definitely make a build with no long cooldowns though.

And the fans of the game constantly want to call anyone, like me, who dislikes the combat a troll, a bad, or just that I don't understand the game.

I've been told the problem is that I want simple cookie cutters.

It's none of the above. I feel confined by such a simple rotation.

---

Originally posted by karmath
The system is pretty much Rifts system, just with a wheel rather than a tree.

---

No. It really isnt...

The combat is based on decks, that is where the challenge is supposed to come from. Not so much in finding one generic deck to be fitted into every situation but to create a deck for each individual situation/boss/mob and yes, group you encounter.

Say you want to play a tank. But what kind of tank? In most games, if you are build X tank, that is the build you are and you can't change. But what if the healer you are with isn't much good? In most games you just bitch (because changing your tactics is unheard off for most players). In TSW, you can change decks on the fly and give yourself a self-healing tank build instead.

Or what if you are with a fantastic healer? Ditch the emergency self-heal and go full agro generation to offset the high heals.

Gosh, it might even be possible for DPS to switch to a support healing deck if a battle needs extra healing. Nah, what am I thinking, people actually changing tactics to deal with a tactical situation? Rather just bitch that you can never find a healer to keep my dps zero survivability build alive! 

Healers could switch to a DPS deck for trash mobs or soloing.

It is a novel idea. But my joking about people rather bitching then changing tactics is based on longtime observation especially Lord of the Rings Online were for a thinking group there were plenty of alternatives to needing a minstrel along for the ride.

During last beta I already saw examples of how the instant deck switching could work if people are capable of more then one play style AND on how some players just cannot adjust themselves to the group they are in or the enemies they face.

Most players right now seem to build a single deck and use that to judge how combat is across all mobs. You are then faced with a real weakness in the TSW experience, the first mobs are grouped mobs of (for your level) rather though zombies. For the few weapons (blades especially) that start with a AoE (multiple enemies hit with a single attack) builder, this is easy. For classes that start and only have a single target attack, this is far less easy. The experience difference is steep. 

I hope Funcom makes it easier to switch decks on the fly, without having to open a menu. It helps to switch decks even for individual mobs. The zombie group mobs and single "hard" mobs fight radically different and a hybrid build that suits all would indeed feel very boring after a while.

I think Funcom made an oversight. They fixed the usual rigid class system where everyone is looking for a pure healer for a instance  while to poor pure healer is looking for help with the solo parts but were rigid class systems give each class a lot of different skills to help them deal with different situations, Funcom seems to have thought, you got 500 skills, what more do you want and forgot that selecting the right deck for each mob is to much work. 

The new system ain't bad, but it needs fine tuning. And the problem is that fine tuning a live MMO rarely works, people don't come back to a game they have left. You get one chance with players. Only games that start small can grow big but if you want to start big, you can't afford to loose them because of unfinished mechanics and then hope to win them back.

Never worked, never shall. Right now, for solo play, some functional decks are boring in solo play, you won't last with them in group play but the boring solo play may already be losing you customers before the group stuff is ever encountered.

Originally posted by sfc1971

 

You know, other games have had multiple specs for years. Some people just like to heal or like to dps or like to tank and really dislike breaking that mold. Just because a dps has dual spec doesn't mean he'll switch from ret to holy because the group can't find a healer.

There's nothing novel in the basic idea, but "we" will see if TSW players are any more inclined to adapt when the group needs it.

I'm aware that abilities can be switched out once learned, pretty readily. I state again that I feel like having a toy like a charge or backwards jump on my bars will haunt me when I die because I needed the cd, or an aoe because someone screwed something up.

Originally posted by sfc1971

The combat is based on decks, that is where the challenge is supposed to come from. Not so much in finding one generic deck to be fitted into every situation but to create a deck for each individual situation/boss/mob and yes, group you encounter.

Say you want to play a tank. But what kind of tank? In most games, if you are build X tank, that is the build you are and you can't change. But what if the healer you are with isn't much good? In most games you just bitch (because changing your tactics is unheard off for most players). In TSW, you can change decks on the fly and give yourself a self-healing tank build instead.

Or what if you are with a fantastic healer? Ditch the emergency self-heal and go full agro generation to offset the high heals.

Gosh, it might even be possible for DPS to switch to a support healing deck if a battle needs extra healing. Nah, what am I thinking, people actually changing tactics to deal with a tactical situation? Rather just bitch that you can never find a healer to keep my dps zero survivability build alive! 

Healers could switch to a DPS deck for trash mobs or soloing.

It is a novel idea. But my joking about people rather bitching then changing tactics is based on longtime observation especially Lord of the Rings Online were for a thinking group there were plenty of alternatives to needing a minstrel along for the ride.

During last beta I already saw examples of how the instant deck switching could work if people are capable of more then one play style AND on how some players just cannot adjust themselves to the group they are in or the enemies they face.

Most players right now seem to build a single deck and use that to judge how combat is across all mobs. You are then faced with a real weakness in the TSW experience, the first mobs are grouped mobs of (for your level) rather though zombies. For the few weapons (blades especially) that start with a AoE (multiple enemies hit with a single attack) builder, this is easy. For classes that start and only have a single target attack, this is far less easy. The experience difference is steep. 

I hope Funcom makes it easier to switch decks on the fly, without having to open a menu. It helps to switch decks even for individual mobs. The zombie group mobs and single "hard" mobs fight radically different and a hybrid build that suits all would indeed feel very boring after a while.

I think Funcom made an oversight. They fixed the usual rigid class system where everyone is looking for a pure healer for a instance  while to poor pure healer is looking for help with the solo parts but were rigid class systems give each class a lot of different skills to help them deal with different situations, Funcom seems to have thought, you got 500 skills, what more do you want and forgot that selecting the right deck for each mob is to much work. 

The new system ain't bad, but it needs fine tuning. And the problem is that fine tuning a live MMO rarely works, people don't come back to a game they have left. You get one chance with players. Only games that start small can grow big but if you want to start big, you can't afford to loose them because of unfinished mechanics and then hope to win them back.

Never worked, never shall. Right now, for solo play, some functional decks are boring in solo play, you won't last with them in group play but the boring solo play may already be losing you customers before the group stuff is ever encountered.

I dont know what to say other than: well said sir.

---

Originally posted by Deathofsage
I never was interested in anything Funcom before. I played some AoC for a friend but never quite hooked. It wasn't my type of game.

I don't mean to hate on this game quite so much, and possibly should apologize, but I'm initimately familiar with the combat and all I see is the same abilities spammed again and again.

My biggest complaint, as I've said before, is this 7/7 nonsense. Seven abilities makes me feel like I want nothing to do with CDs because .. I want to have a complex and fun game. Each ability with a 20, 25, or even 90 second cooldown on my bars takes away from the precious seven. It makes my rotation and combat style that much simpler.

I think the game could do a lot in just expanding to 10 each or 14 each. At least in abilities. The balance of passives might be too delicate to just *do this*.

I feel like charges and jumpbacks are fun, but I feel like any toys like this that I have equipped just simplify my rotation.

Funcom makes it different by describing something wildly different. Build your own class they said. They lied.

---

They didn't lie. What you try to avoid to understand is, in TSW you can have that special super Tank AOE block skill even if you are a healer. You just spend 1 active or passive , or 2 whatever.

Besides 7 Slots in TSW go way deeper than 40 in all themepark mmos.
Last time i checked your other game, one spec or even one whole class with all the different specs couldn't have:

Dots that heal, slow and stuns that heal or dot, roots than increase damage, slows that increase your defense and % heal based on damage, all that while you are a healer or tank or DD.

In any combination. If you are willing you can make a build that has almost 3 to 5 purposes to each (slot) key.

that 7x5 skills there. (!)
My Pumpgun slow can be used as CC.
Can be used as an status changer which applies DOT damage
Which can result in a heal and/or defense buff
And overall it's a builder for both weapons i carry.

Depending when i use this cooldown i can get so many different results.

All i read is TSW has a far to complex combat system and you keep trying to build a rotation based class with not the slightest idea about the combat mechanics, especially status effects. Sorry but when you worry only about the cooldown of your skills there is something fundamentaly wrong.

There is a reason each target frame and your own have 4 indicators for the status effects. Status effects are THAT important.

GW had a limited deck of only 8 skills where if you were not a healer, 1 slot would often already taken up by a resurrection signet, leaving you only 7 skills to choose from, not even passives around to enhance your effectiveness. Yet you'd find the most creative and ingenious builds and team builds and tactics, more so than in other MMO's that offered the traditional class decks.

Limited skill decks like in GW and TSW, it's all about choices and the forethinking and planning that goes with it. Every skill in your limited deck is valuable, so if you put 1 thing in then another has to go. It adds the element of smart deck construction and additional planning to the regular combat tactics, and in this way it reminds me of Magic the Gathering, where you'd often fuss about adding 1 more land or this or that skill to have a great rotation.

I can see why this element isn't for everyone, some hate this fussing or having to choose, especially with the limitation of only 7 active skills. But like said, the 8 skill limitation in GW didn't prevent it from having some of the most impressive and creative strategies and team builds seen in MMO's.

---

Originally posted by Deathofsage
I never was interested in anything Funcom before. I played some AoC for a friend but never quite hooked. It wasn't my type of game.

I don't mean to hate on this game quite so much, and possibly should apologize, but I'm initimately familiar with the combat and all I see is the same abilities spammed again and again.

My biggest complaint, as I've said before, is this 7/7 nonsense. Seven abilities makes me feel like I want nothing to do with CDs because .. I want to have a complex and fun game. Each ability with a 20, 25, or even 90 second cooldown on my bars takes away from the precious seven. It makes my rotation and combat style that much simpler.

I think the game could do a lot in just expanding to 10 each or 14 each. At least in abilities. The balance of passives might be too delicate to just *do this*.

I feel like charges and jumpbacks are fun, but I feel like any toys like this that I have equipped just simplify my rotation.

Funcom makes it different by describing something wildly different. Build your own class they said. They lied.

---

You state that you're intimately familiar with the combat, then make very broad generalizations about why you don't like it. I feel like you may not be as familiar with the combat as you think. My first couple weeks of CB, I thought I pretty much had it figured out. Then as I started finishing off some outer ring abilities, I got this "oh shit" moment like when you used to stare at those stupid 3d posters and you finally see the sailboat. It is ridiculously complex and addicting as hell once you get the swing of it. There were people in CB that had been playing 20+ hours a week for months and just last week in Agartha, most of the "vets" conceded that they felt like they were still just scratching the surface concerning the amount viable deck combinations.

I think the guys that developed the ability wheel were doing some crazy ass math. It feels like an algorithm.

We all like different things...

Me i usually play sandbox mmorpgs as thats my thing.. but i actually enjoy TSW and i like the combat as well..

Still a game cant be for everyone but there are enough MMORPGs out there that you should find one that you like :)

Originally posted by smh_alot
GW had a limited deck of only 8 skills where if you were not a healer, 1 slot would often already taken up by a resurrection signet, leaving you only 7 skills to choose from, not even passives around to enhance your effectiveness. Yet you'd find the most creative and ingenious builds and team builds and tactics, more so than in other MMO's that offered the traditional class decks.

 

Limited skill decks like in GW and TSW, it's all about choices and the forethinking and planning that goes with it. Every skill in your limited deck is valuable, so if you put 1 thing in then another has to go. It adds the element of smart deck construction and additional planning to the regular combat tactics, and in this way it reminds me of Magic the Gathering, where you'd often fuss about adding 1 more land or this or that skill to have a great rotation.

 

I can see why this element isn't for everyone, some hate this fussing or having to choose, especially with the limitation of only 7 active skills. But like said, the 8 skill limitation in GW didn't prevent it from having some of the most impressive and creative strategies and team builds seen in MMO's.

Aye, GW2 uses a limited ability system just like TSW, the difference being that TSW is built completely around builders and finishers with a few utility things tossed in there.  GW2 has...a lot more going for it when it comes to weapons and what they can do.

I'm not claiming this is the end all be all, just my opinion, but GW2 combat is fun, TSW combat is stiff and disjointed and frankly repetative and boring.

I disagree,  I like only having 7 skills to use I am sick and tired on having to work in macros because a game floods you with so many skills that you need to prioritise rotate and emergency cooldown.

We have only scratched the surface of the skill wheel there are so many skills. Besides this game isn't really about the combat though I find nothing wrong with it, this game is about puzzle solving and adventure.  I'll take that over alot of other games that use time/grind constantly.

Originally posted by Wicoa

I disagree,  I like only having 7 skills to use I am sick and tired on having to work in macros because a game floods you with so many skills that you need to prioritise rotate and emergency cooldown.

We have only scratched the surface of the skill wheel there are so many skills. Besides this game isn't really about the combat though I find nothing wrong with it, this game is about puzzle solving and adventure.  I'll take that over alot of other games that use time/grind constantly.

I completely agree.  As players were saying with Tera... each player is going to have to experience it for him/herself.  It is familiar but different.

At the end of the day, you will eventually have 500+ abilities spread between actives and passives.  Your deck will dramatically impact how you play the game solo and in a group.  You can change it up practically on the fly to suit your current situation.

I didn't have an issue with CD's much.  Yes, some abilities have them.  But many do not.  One of the first builds I created was awful.  It gave me a very poor impression of combat.  However, after taking a few tips from more experienced players... it was like night and day.  I find the combat very fun and engaging.  Its not going to knock your socks off or blow anyones mind.  But the way the advancement and combat system is wrapped together... its fun, it works..

I can see balking over some skills in tiers being virtually identical. Because...well...a few are essentially making them worthless. A few mind you.

I can even see balking about some skill sets. Because they are not all on equal footing. Some are a lot better than others in every aspect.

What I don't get is the issue with 7/7. So many other times you don't even come close to using all the abilities your character has except for under certain conditions. Which would be the same here...and then you switch out your abilities for those types of scenarios. No difference between the two except some apparently feel naked or lost without fifty fucking hotbars on their screen.

I will say I personally think there should be a hot key setup available for potion use. Kind of annoying having to click those.

Originally posted by Caldrin

We all like different things...

Me i usually play sandbox mmorpgs as thats my thing.. but i actually enjoy TSW and i like the combat as well..

Still a game cant be for everyone but there are enough MMORPGs out there that you should find one that you like :)

so, you are playing eve i guess? :P

 

just wondering since you used plural ^^