Originally posted by ShakyMo
Someone above said build, build, build, build, build, spend, spend.

Well done for spotting double finishers, but your still doing it wrong.

Some spends do same damage regardless of how much you built, but they do bonus based on state or mob health.
Some spends, get rid of 1, 2 or 3 resources, not the whole pool.
Some passives have you build automatically on triggers
Some attacks are neither spenders or builders, but do more damage when you have full resources
some builders do bonus damage when you have no other resources
then you have the movement thing, using los to telegraph mob attacks and timing your own hard hitters so they don't get interupted.

this is just with the inner wheel in the open beta. it IS better combat than your typical mmo combat, you can't just stand their and spam a rotation if you want to do well.

now that's the mechanics, some animations need work though to make it knit better.

I generally agree gw2 has better combat.

BUT
I take tsw combat over wow/swtor/rift style combat anyway, I actually have to think about what I'm doing, I can't set the thing to a keyboard macro and just stand there, doing entire combat off 1 key press.

agreed.. the flow and feeling could be a lot better but the overall system I enjoy way more than wow and swtor

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

I think this boils down to semantics.

Most mmo's are focused around combat. So does that mean that every mmo had lousy combat? Well, if you ask combat game afficianados they might say "yes". However I don't think, as much as "some" players might want to believe, that developers are dense.

They know what fast paced combat games offer. and as I said part of this might be technology but i think mose of this is to include players who don't have the capacity for fast paced, visceral combat.

 

   GW2, Tera, Raiderz etc. are all showing that that simply isn't the case. This isn't 2004, where WoWs combat will fly, this is 2012, where we have seen and done everything EQ-like.

  It's not a question of being "bad" in the absolute sense, but "bad" compared to what else exists and what our expectations are. Diminishing utility is the operative word and some of us, nay, most of us have played the hell out of WoW/EQ/CoH etc. and NEED something new.

Back in 200X, X <= 4, we didn't have those expectations, because we were all relatively new. AO had absolutely atrocious combat, but a lot of us didn't mind, because it was still relatively new.

It's like releasing  a platformer like super mario bros. for the NES AGAIN during the 64-bit era; it would have not have flown then and it still wouldn't fly today as a superior good.

  Yeah the combat is blah....but the whole game and everything about it is blah.I cancelled my preorder after 3 or 4 hours of beta.The game is just boring.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

I think this boils down to semantics.

Most mmo's are focused around combat. So does that mean that every mmo had lousy combat? Well, if you ask combat game afficianados they might say "yes". However I don't think, as much as "some" players might want to believe, that developers are dense.

They know what fast paced combat games offer. and as I said part of this might be technology but i think mose of this is to include players who don't have the capacity for fast paced, visceral combat.

 

 

   GW2, Tera, Raiderz etc. are all showing that that simply isn't the case. This isn't 2004, where WoWs combat will fly, this is 2012, where we have seen and done everything EQ-like.

  It's not a question of being "bad" in the absolute sense, but "bad" compared to what else exists and what our expectations are. Diminishing utility is the operative word and some of us, nay, most of us have played the hell out of WoW/EQ/CoH etc. and NEED something new.

Back in 200X, X <= 4, we didn't have those expectations, because we were all relatively new. AO had absolutely atrocious combat, but a lot of us didn't mind, because it was still relatively new.

 

It's like releasing  a platformer like super mario bros. for the NES AGAIN during the 64-bit era; it would have not have flown then and it still wouldn't fly today as a superior good.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again,

TSW is not a combat game.

Its true because it almost rhymes.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

I think this boils down to semantics.

Most mmo's are focused around combat. So does that mean that every mmo had lousy combat? Well, if you ask combat game afficianados they might say "yes". However I don't think, as much as "some" players might want to believe, that developers are dense.

They know what fast paced combat games offer. and as I said part of this might be technology but i think mose of this is to include players who don't have the capacity for fast paced, visceral combat.

 

 

   GW2, Tera, Raiderz etc. are all showing that that simply isn't the case. This isn't 2004, where WoWs combat will fly, this is 2012, where we have seen and done everything EQ-like.

  It's not a question of being "bad" in the absolute sense, but "bad" compared to what else exists and what our expectations are. Diminishing utility is the operative word and some of us, nay, most of us have played the hell out of WoW/EQ/CoH etc. and NEED something new.

Back in 200X, X <= 4, we didn't have those expectations, because we were all relatively new. AO had absolutely atrocious combat, but a lot of us didn't mind, because it was still relatively new.

 

It's like releasing  a platformer like super mario bros. for the NES AGAIN during the 64-bit era; it would have not have flown then and it still wouldn't fly today as a superior good.

 

but its not WOW combat, it really really isn't, if you play it like wow you will be disapointed. 

the 2 games it has most in common with combat wise are COH and................................... GW2!

Its ALL about states, combos and movement.

Tera yeah thats more action combat, raiderz I don't know about, it combines my two least favourite things in its very title - raiding and chav spelling.

I went the fight club with my friend, we kept messing with our builds seeing what would beat each other (he had 4 weapeons maxed, i had 3, 2 halfs and a few bits elsewhere), we both commented that the build messing about stuff was just like when we used to do arena back in GW1

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Someone above said build, build, build, build, build, spend, spend.

Well done for spotting double finishers, but your still doing it wrong.

Some spends do same damage regardless of how much you built, but they do bonus based on state or mob health.
Some spends, get rid of 1, 2 or 3 resources, not the whole pool.
Some passives have you build automatically on triggers
Some attacks are neither spenders or builders, but do more damage when you have full resources
some builders do bonus damage when you have no other resources
then you have the movement thing, using los to telegraph mob attacks and timing your own hard hitters so they don't get interupted.

this is just with the inner wheel in the open beta. it IS better combat than your typical mmo combat, you can't just stand their and spam a rotation if you want to do well.

now that's the mechanics, some animations need work though to make it knit better.

I generally agree gw2 has better combat.

BUT
I take tsw combat over wow/swtor/rift style combat anyway, I actually have to think about what I'm doing, I can't set the thing to a keyboard macro and just stand there, doing entire combat off 1 key press.

The problem is that there are only 7 abilities. You can only skin a cat so many ways. Most builders you alternate usage with, like with claw healing/damage; there's little variation to your base rotation once you have it figured out.

The elite active skills generally have cooldowns, so once again the base rotation is trivialized through the button constraint and builder/finisher design.

Take the WoW warrior: You had stance dancing => 3 buttons

Initimidating shout/Stun => 1 button (situationally used)

Base damage abilities => >= 3 with 1 situational (execute) => >= 4 buttons

Situtational defensive abilities => shield wall/spell reflect/healing/fear immunity/damage etc.  => >= 3 buttons

Mobility abilities => >= 2 buttons

Snare abilities => 1 button

etc.

Obviously I omitted some, but that's intentional, the point is that for only so many different effects you need a certain number of buttons.  7 buttons is a serious constraint by itself.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Someone above said build, build, build, build, build, spend, spend.

Well done for spotting double finishers, but your still doing it wrong.

Some spends do same damage regardless of how much you built, but they do bonus based on state or mob health.
Some spends, get rid of 1, 2 or 3 resources, not the whole pool.
Some passives have you build automatically on triggers
Some attacks are neither spenders or builders, but do more damage when you have full resources
some builders do bonus damage when you have no other resources
then you have the movement thing, using los to telegraph mob attacks and timing your own hard hitters so they don't get interupted.

this is just with the inner wheel in the open beta. it IS better combat than your typical mmo combat, you can't just stand their and spam a rotation if you want to do well.

now that's the mechanics, some animations need work though to make it knit better.

I generally agree gw2 has better combat.

BUT
I take tsw combat over wow/swtor/rift style combat anyway, I actually have to think about what I'm doing, I can't set the thing to a keyboard macro and just stand there, doing entire combat off 1 key press.

 

The problem is that there are only 7 abilities. You can only skin a cat so many ways. Most builders you alternate usage with, like with claw healing/damage; there's little variation to your base rotation once you have it figured out.

The elite active skills generally have cooldowns, so once again the base rotation is trivialized through the button constraint and builder/finisher design.

Take the WoW warrior: You had stance dancing => 3 buttons

Initimidating shout/Stun => 1 button (situationally used)

Base damage abilities => >= 3 with 1 situational (execute) => >= 4 buttons

Situtational defensive abilities => shield wall/spell reflect/healing/fear immunity/damage etc.  => >= 3 buttons

Mobility abilities => >= 2 buttons

Snare abilities => 1 button

etc.

Obviously I omitted some, but that's intentional, the point is that for only so many different effects you need a certain number of buttons.  7 buttons is a serious constraint by itself.

 

but you didn't, you used fury stance and fury tree for grinding and raid dps.  you used arms stance and arms build for pvp (ok with stance dance for some cc, but then back to arms), you used tank stance and tank build for tanking. 

most of them wow abilities were just the same ability but more damage and longer cooldown.

OK for tanking you had to actually watch the fight, even though it was pretty much a standard rotation you spammed.

but for dps in wow  - macro your keyboard up and spam that 1 button till your finger bleeds while you watch tv.

Also your talking like in TSW you have ONE build.  I already had 5 viable builds by the end of 2nd beta.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

I think this boils down to semantics.

Most mmo's are focused around combat. So does that mean that every mmo had lousy combat? Well, if you ask combat game afficianados they might say "yes". However I don't think, as much as "some" players might want to believe, that developers are dense.

They know what fast paced combat games offer. and as I said part of this might be technology but i think mose of this is to include players who don't have the capacity for fast paced, visceral combat.

 

 

   GW2, Tera, Raiderz etc. are all showing that that simply isn't the case. This isn't 2004, where WoWs combat will fly, this is 2012, where we have seen and done everything EQ-like.

  It's not a question of being "bad" in the absolute sense, but "bad" compared to what else exists and what our expectations are. Diminishing utility is the operative word and some of us, nay, most of us have played the hell out of WoW/EQ/CoH etc. and NEED something new.

Back in 200X, X <= 4, we didn't have those expectations, because we were all relatively new. AO had absolutely atrocious combat, but a lot of us didn't mind, because it was still relatively new.

 

It's like releasing  a platformer like super mario bros. for the NES AGAIN during the 64-bit era; it would have not have flown then and it still wouldn't fly today as a superior good.

 

Actually I don't think that's correct.

Now keep in mind I'm a huge fan of Tera and I'm planning to be in the game for some time. A good part fo this is the combat.

But Tera has about 700k subs and who knows where that will go down to as we haven't fnished the first month. And you know what I"ve been hearing in the noob area? People saying they are having a tough time getting used to the combat. Soem people having a tough time with not "clicking" the skills. Now this isn't a huge amount of people but it is telling that there is a disconnect for some.

Raiderz is not released and I wonder what the numbers would be.

I played GW2 exactly like the current mmo's with decent results. I wonder how many will try to do the same.

This isn't a huge paradigm shift in combat thinking. You have one game that's a year old in Korea and only 700k subs (good to be sure but not groundbreaking) a game that is not out yet and another that is not out yet.

If every game that was in development was "action combat" I would agree but the only other game that I can recall is planetside 2 and that is just following in the footsteps of it's forerunner.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

 

but its not WOW combat, it really really isn't, if you play it like wow you will be disapointed. 

the 2 games it has most in common with combat wise are COH and................................... GW2!

Its ALL about states, combos and movement.

Tera yeah thats more action combat, raiderz I don't know about, it combines my two least favourite things in its very title - raiding and chav spelling.

I went the fight club with my friend, we kept messing with our builds seeing what would beat each other (he had 4 weapeons maxed, i had 3, 2 halfs and a few bits elsewhere), we both commented that the build messing about stuff was just like when we used to do arena back in GW1

Yeah, it's not.. it's sadly worse than WoWs combat, because the rotations are more trivial. There are less situational abilities, because there are only 7 active abilities period.

GW2 forces you to swap between different weapon sets, in this game you predetermine your set of skills before combat, not during, so regardless of what you pick it's the same old 7.

You're definitely spot on with the GW combat too; GW combat is just as shallow. The whole complexity, just like TSW, is with determining your skills beforehand. The problem is that in GW there wasn't really a lot of grinding and a lot of the PvE stuff was forced grouping, which was great for that particular game.

So far in TSW it feels a lot like CoH where you can progress mindnumbingly easy through the content single player, since the base mechanics are so trivial and finding that optimal heal/sustain build is easy with claws, or sword/blood etc.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

 

but you didn't, you used fury stance and fury tree for grinding and raid dps.  you used arms stance and arms build for pvp (ok with stance dance for some cc, but then back to arms), you used tank stance and tank build for tanking. 

most of them wow abilities were just the same ability but more damage and longer cooldown.

OK for tanking you had to actually watch the fight, even though it was pretty much a standard rotation you spammed.

but for dps in wow  - macro your keyboard up and spam that 1 button till your finger bleeds while you watch tv.

Also your talking like in TSW you have ONE build.  I already had 5 viable builds by the end of 2nd beta.

For PvP in WoW you had to use all stances in the good old days. There are definitely a lot of viable builds in TSW, but all builds are situational at best and that's apparently what they were aiming for, which is good.... but..

The problem is that you can't change builds during combat. You are relegated to a certain way of playing once you're in combat and it's kind of boring, because it can't accomodate strategic play due to constraints.

You're right: You didn't have to use all of those buttons in certain aspects of the game, but there were situtations that required all of them, especially when tanking/pvping etc.

TSW will never have that kind of complexity the way it is now, unless they let you change builds on the fly in future content.

In fact, if they let you did that it would solve a lot of complaints I think and make it more interesting to play.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Actually I don't think that's correct.

Now keep in mind I'm a huge fan of Tera and I'm planning to be in the game for some time. A good part fo this is the combat.

But Tera has about 700k subs and who knows where that will go down to as we haven't fnished the first month. And you know what I"ve been hearing in the noob area? People saying they are having a tough time getting used to the combat. Soem people having a tough time with not "clicking" the skills. Now this isn't a huge amount of people but it is telling that there is a disconnect for some.

Raiderz is not released and I wonder what the numbers would be.

I played GW2 exactly like the current mmo's with decent results. I wonder how many will try to do the same.

This isn't a huge paradigm shift in combat thinking. You have one game that's a year old in Korea and only 700k subs (good to be sure but not groundbreaking) a game that is not out yet and another that is not out yet.

If every game that was in development was "action combat" I would agree but the only other game that I can recall is planetside 2 and that is just following in the footsteps of it's forerunner.

 

 

The problem is that the few who haven't coped yet with hotkey combat are very, very few, because of WoWs immense popularity.

Hell, Teras catchphrase is even "True action combat", partially because that's all it really offers, but still, it's becoming a trend in upcoming titles for good reason.

If GW2 didn't have weapon switching and "dodging" its combat would be conisdered prosaic. GW1s combat is nowadays considered bad for a new game.

The newer titles are catching the trends, or at least trying to. Even the Elder Scrolls MMO that sounds horrific is using GW2s/AoCs system to an extent.

Most people have played WoW, so most people are facing diminishing returns when it comes to the same style of combat, or combat that offers less complexity than WoWs.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Sovrath

Actually I don't think that's correct.

Now keep in mind I'm a huge fan of Tera and I'm planning to be in the game for some time. A good part fo this is the combat.

But Tera has about 700k subs and who knows where that will go down to as we haven't fnished the first month. And you know what I"ve been hearing in the noob area? People saying they are having a tough time getting used to the combat. Soem people having a tough time with not "clicking" the skills. Now this isn't a huge amount of people but it is telling that there is a disconnect for some.

Raiderz is not released and I wonder what the numbers would be.

I played GW2 exactly like the current mmo's with decent results. I wonder how many will try to do the same.

This isn't a huge paradigm shift in combat thinking. You have one game that's a year old in Korea and only 700k subs (good to be sure but not groundbreaking) a game that is not out yet and another that is not out yet.

If every game that was in development was "action combat" I would agree but the only other game that I can recall is planetside 2 and that is just following in the footsteps of it's forerunner.

 

 

The problem is that the few who haven't coped yet with hotkey combat are very, very few, because of WoWs immense popularity.

Hell, Teras catchphrase is even "True action combat", partially because that's all it really offers, but still, it's becoming a trend in upcoming titles for good reason.

If GW2 didn't have weapon switching and "dodging" its combat would be conisdered prosaic. GW1s combat is nowadays considered bad for a new game.

 

The newer titles are catching the trends, or at least trying to. Even the Elder Scrolls MMO that sounds horrific is using GW2s/AoCs system to an extent.

Most people have played WoW, so most people are facing diminishing returns when it comes to the same style of combat, or combat that offers less complexity than WoWs.

 

 

No, it is not happening for good reason.  It's happening because arcade fanatics are pouring into the RPG genre and destroying it.  Bastardizing the beloved turn based, tactical combat we flocked to in order to get away from frakking arcade games. [mod edit]

[mod edit]

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by ShakyMo

 

but its not WOW combat, it really really isn't, if you play it like wow you will be disapointed. 

the 2 games it has most in common with combat wise are COH and................................... GW2!

Its ALL about states, combos and movement.

Tera yeah thats more action combat, raiderz I don't know about, it combines my two least favourite things in its very title - raiding and chav spelling.

I went the fight club with my friend, we kept messing with our builds seeing what would beat each other (he had 4 weapeons maxed, i had 3, 2 halfs and a few bits elsewhere), we both commented that the build messing about stuff was just like when we used to do arena back in GW1

 

Yeah, it's not.. it's sadly worse than WoWs combat, because the rotations are more trivial. There are less situational abilities, because there are only 7 active abilities period.

GW2 forces you to swap between different weapon sets, in this game you predetermine your set of skills before combat, not during, so regardless of what you pick it's the same old 7.

You're definitely spot on with the GW combat too; GW combat is just as shallow. The whole complexity, just like TSW, is with determining your skills beforehand. The problem is that in GW there wasn't really a lot of grinding and a lot of the PvE stuff was forced grouping, which was great for that particular game.

 

So far in TSW it feels a lot like CoH where you can progress mindnumbingly easy through the content single player, since the base mechanics are so trivial and finding that optimal heal/sustain build is easy with claws, or sword/blood etc.

 

 

Here is a nice video on how ths skill system works and what can be done with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=trq9FsjevYE

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

[mod edit]

*Points and laughs*

Naughty cow.

Played enough CoH to know the combat is nothing like that....

Combat reminds me of Matrix Online......game has soooo much going for it, but Combat is such a turn off.......

Originally posted by Arkain

Here is a nice video on how ths skill system works and what can be done with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=trq9FsjevYE

 

At around 4:35 of that video I found a dodging ability! The character jumps backwards, no damage messages on the chat window but a line reading "You succesfully performed "Forced Retreat"" and the second ability symbol from the left gets grayed out with a coold down timer of 30 seconds. Seems like dodging abilities can be seen as confirmed. Nice!

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Sovrath

Actually I don't think that's correct.

Now keep in mind I'm a huge fan of Tera and I'm planning to be in the game for some time. A good part fo this is the combat.

But Tera has about 700k subs and who knows where that will go down to as we haven't fnished the first month. And you know what I"ve been hearing in the noob area? People saying they are having a tough time getting used to the combat. Soem people having a tough time with not "clicking" the skills. Now this isn't a huge amount of people but it is telling that there is a disconnect for some.

Raiderz is not released and I wonder what the numbers would be.

I played GW2 exactly like the current mmo's with decent results. I wonder how many will try to do the same.

This isn't a huge paradigm shift in combat thinking. You have one game that's a year old in Korea and only 700k subs (good to be sure but not groundbreaking) a game that is not out yet and another that is not out yet.

If every game that was in development was "action combat" I would agree but the only other game that I can recall is planetside 2 and that is just following in the footsteps of it's forerunner.

 

 

The problem is that the few who haven't coped yet with hotkey combat are very, very few, because of WoWs immense popularity.

Hell, Teras catchphrase is even "True action combat", partially because that's all it really offers, but still, it's becoming a trend in upcoming titles for good reason.

If GW2 didn't have weapon switching and "dodging" its combat would be conisdered prosaic. GW1s combat is nowadays considered bad for a new game.

 

The newer titles are catching the trends, or at least trying to. Even the Elder Scrolls MMO that sounds horrific is using GW2s/AoCs system to an extent.

Most people have played WoW, so most people are facing diminishing returns when it comes to the same style of combat, or combat that offers less complexity than WoWs.

 

 

No, it is not happening for good reason.  It's happening because arcade fanatics are pouring into the RPG genre and destroying it.  Bastardizing the beloved turn based, tactical combat we flocked to in order to get away from frakking arcade games. [mod edit]

Asheron's Call was more action based than even Tera.  In AC, you could jump anywhere with enough skill, run extremely fast, etc... Having limited movement and a hotbar is as lame and boring as could be.

The more I play this game, the more Im thinking this isnt really a combat mmo. It has combat, yes. But its more of a build-a-deck and try it out type game. Yes, there are visual cues to get out of the fire and abilities are done while moving, but the feel of it plays more like a visual tcg with active dodging. Personally, I think its pretty damn great. Nice change to the current trend of over 9000 combat in mmos

Originally posted by TheSedated

Originally posted by Arkain

Here is a nice video on how ths skill system works and what can be done with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=trq9FsjevYE

 

At around 4:35 of that video I found a dodging ability! The character jumps backwards, no damage messages on the chat window but a line reading "You succesfully performed "Forced Retreat"" and the second ability symbol from the left gets grayed out with a coold down timer of 30 seconds. Seems like dodging abilities can be seen as confirmed. Nice!

Very nice catch.   It's called Tactical Retreat btw and it's awesome.