Originally posted by Bruise187

I want all your loot.

Good. It's all overdue bills.

Originally posted by Seggallion

Originally posted by ghoul31

Originally posted by Mazer14

UO did it to cater to the care bears and attract that type of player which worked for some time. Most people agree though that Trammel was the start of the end for UO. It just became a money maker for EA at that point and they started releasing expansions like Samurai Empire or the elves thing. Just brutal.

The fact that DF creators know that they are likely losing a lot of players (yet attracting a fair bit) by doing full loot, is an indication that they care more for a solid and honest gameplay experience as opposed to being focused on making money themselves.

Having to replace gear leads to a better ingame economy, people actually buy weapons off other players. What a crazy idea.

Khael also made the good point of down time b/w deaths also. Killing someone will actually give an advantage that lasts more than a minute or two on the battlefield and opens up a lot of new strategic decisions.

The problem is the MMO mindset that Risk vs. Reward is basically non-existant.

Risk vs. Reward should be a focal theme for all MMOs.

 

The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.

 

 

I doesn't have to be that way. You will encounter enemies and PKers but those who enjoy PvP will most likely fight clan vs. clan. And most guilds will have gear and weapon covered for quick resupplying.

And the basic gear will be cheap if you loose your own.

Are you kidding me...

Do you even KNOW what human nature is?

By allowing anyone the ability to full loot people.  EVERYONE will full loot EVERYONE.

And saying most pvp battles will be by clans is well duhh.  But there will be hundreds if not thousands more that find the skills that make it easy to WTFGANK people and run away.

And by not having Factions and FFA pvp anyone that gets pissed of at someone will just follow them around wait for them to attack a mob, once they are at half life WTFGANK them and take their shit.

  Yes, it affects players' ability to enjoy PVP battles. After a full loot you need time to get back and that's actually the penalty apart from getting upset.

But the worst thing is when this happens after a lost connection or a lag death. That's the strongest argument of people who did not enjoy this kind of PVP. (ask the guy who lost the titan in EVE. You will not get a polite answer...).

However it's not fair to see someone that you killed after effort come back to battle like if death never happened. Battles in sandbox mmos unlike mmorpgs with PVP Areas affect economy and that's the other side of coin.

You don't need time to replace gear since it was mostly crafted but it was not cheap especially if you were using reagents to cast spells like in UO.

Ultima is what comes to my mind speaking of full loot PVP. It did not work as intented to and after 2 years of battle between Devs and exploiters EQ came. It was 3D, had quests and it had a damn chat channel.

Ultima failed to evolve, balancing pvp was its main effort, but players who prefered other kinds of interactions were not heard until one day population got low and things started to change.

It's too early to talk about darkfall imo, we' ll see if they will manage to pull this off. Untill then we can just hope.

Originally posted by rikilii

How will full looting in PVP affect the ability of players to enjoy mass PVP battles?

What comes to mind is this: 

In most MMOs, you gather groups of players to PVP for a few hours at a time.  In any particular PVP session, you will most likely die many times.

In a game with full PVP looting, how will this play out?  If I die in PVP and my killer loots all my gear, will I have to spend the next week replacing all my gear before I can PVP again?  If so, how will it really be possible/practical to maintain continuous ongoing PVP battles?

I think that full-loot PVP is a cool idea if implemented properly, but has anyone given any serious thought to how it will affect the playability of the game?

It will depend on how they implement the gear in this game.  It was said it wont be gear centric but until people play it, we have not clue.

About the big battles, it will depend on a lot of factors.  A possible strategy will be run back naked, find a body (if its a big battle there will be plenty), loot it, equip it, fight, die, repeat the process.

It may be like picking up a sword from the ground in the middle of a battle or not... we will have to see (as I said) how they implement gear crafting, itemization (can anyone really use anything?), how quick you can loot and wear gear, etc.

If looting can be make too quickly, then all people may get full looted during the battle... but if guildies see someone looting all around instead of fighting, they may get a kinda upstep. Of course, they may have a designated looter (after all they may be raiding for that). We will have to wait and see.

I was an old school UO player and continued to play through Trammel for a couple of years. I always liked the idea of full looting, but I always found the way how UO implemented it was flawed and catered towards the exploit / gank crowd.

Full loot rules that just require you to drag an icon from their corpse to your inventory will always have a problem unless there is a timer associated to it. If I kill someone, I shouldn't be able to loot that person in 5 seconds flat and run off before his friends or the local NPC killable guards are called.

What does a real thief do? A thief in real life will take what he can in a very short period and run off leaving the rest behind. You know, rummage through the persons sack for small valuable items, coins, jewelry and possibly their sword or other loose weaponry. A thief wouldn't take the time to unbuckle the victom's armor or unstrap his boots unless the thief was specifically targeting that item.

Why? Because it would take too long and someone would catch up to his arse and beat him down. Same thing should hold true in full loot systems. This would discourage those who pirate from thinking that they can steal everything a player has in under 5-10 seconds. It would also encourage people to be less put off on knowing that even if they are killed, they may not loose everything.

This also works on the other end of the PvP extreme. Large scale battles. In war, it is very common for soldiers to be ordered to loot the dead to help outfit their own ranks. This is why in several of our own world wars, Allied soldiers were supplied with less than ideal guns that tended to backfire and kill friendlies. The fear was that if the soldiers were given decent weaponry it would end up in enemy hands.

So, in a large scale (usually planned) battle, loosing everything you have on you would be expected for the loosing side. But, only because the winning army has the time to camp out in the area for a short 5-10 minutes before moving off.

I think the fact that people can loot everything you have in just a few short seconds is what turns people off from this idea and is just another bonus for players to find exploits to use against other players.

Has DF released specifics on how the full looting works yet?

Originally posted by FischerBlack

Originally posted by ghoul31

Originally posted by Mazer14

UO did it to cater to the care bears and attract that type of player which worked for some time. Most people agree though that Trammel was the start of the end for UO. It just became a money maker for EA at that point and they started releasing expansions like Samurai Empire or the elves thing. Just brutal.

The fact that DF creators know that they are likely losing a lot of players (yet attracting a fair bit) by doing full loot, is an indication that they care more for a solid and honest gameplay experience as opposed to being focused on making money themselves.

Having to replace gear leads to a better ingame economy, people actually buy weapons off other players. What a crazy idea.

Khael also made the good point of down time b/w deaths also. Killing someone will actually give an advantage that lasts more than a minute or two on the battlefield and opens up a lot of new strategic decisions.

The problem is the MMO mindset that Risk vs. Reward is basically non-existant.

Risk vs. Reward should be a focal theme for all MMOs.

 

The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.

 

Farming so that resources can be sunk into PvP is exactly what EVE is all about, and its one of the most successful MMOs out there - why would a similar philosophy not work in DF?

Every time I read a post saying "Full loot PvP is doomed to fail", i think to myself..... but what about EVE?

Yes successful.  Most? No way in hell.

At most they only have 250k subs so I've been told on this forums.  But I've heard its as low as 150k subs.  In a the new MMO generation that's a flippin failure.

So by your standards of success this game will flop!

Originally posted by Mazer14

Originally posted by ghoul31

The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.

 

 

It'll just mean the people who prefer to farm will have to *gasp* work together and rely on one another to ensure their safety. You're right a lot of people will give up and go back to easy mode raids in WoW where if you wipe it's not a big deal, but WoW can keep those players.

DF will offer excitement. People can decide if a more fun atmosphere is worth the risk.

And when everyone leaves you will have no one to gank/grief.  And then you wont even have a game to play.

If this game does come out will full looting, ill be the jack ass ganking your ass and stealin your shit. 

O and my name will the same as my forum name =)

Originally posted by onlinenow225

Originally posted by Mazer14

Originally posted by ghoul31

The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.

 

 

It'll just mean the people who prefer to farm will have to *gasp* work together and rely on one another to ensure their safety. You're right a lot of people will give up and go back to easy mode raids in WoW where if you wipe it's not a big deal, but WoW can keep those players.

DF will offer excitement. People can decide if a more fun atmosphere is worth the risk.

And when everyone leaves you will have no one to gank/grief.  And then you wont even have a game to play.

You're not proving anything with baseless assumptions.

Originally posted by onlinenow225

Originally posted by FischerBlack

Originally posted by ghoul31

Originally posted by Mazer14

UO did it to cater to the care bears and attract that type of player which worked for some time. Most people agree though that Trammel was the start of the end for UO. It just became a money maker for EA at that point and they started releasing expansions like Samurai Empire or the elves thing. Just brutal.

The fact that DF creators know that they are likely losing a lot of players (yet attracting a fair bit) by doing full loot, is an indication that they care more for a solid and honest gameplay experience as opposed to being focused on making money themselves.

Having to replace gear leads to a better ingame economy, people actually buy weapons off other players. What a crazy idea.

Khael also made the good point of down time b/w deaths also. Killing someone will actually give an advantage that lasts more than a minute or two on the battlefield and opens up a lot of new strategic decisions.

The problem is the MMO mindset that Risk vs. Reward is basically non-existant.

Risk vs. Reward should be a focal theme for all MMOs.

 

The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats.

 

Farming so that resources can be sunk into PvP is exactly what EVE is all about, and its one of the most successful MMOs out there - why would a similar philosophy not work in DF?

Every time I read a post saying "Full loot PvP is doomed to fail", i think to myself..... but what about EVE?

Yes successful.  Most? No way in hell.

At most they only have 250k subs so I've been told on this forums.  But I've heard its as low as 150k subs.  In a the new MMO generation that's a flippin failure.

So by your standards of success this game will flop!

 

Comparing any MMO to the standard set by WoW automatically makes it a flop in terms of subscription. I'd be content if DF will have 20 servers with 10k players each. But I'm expecting more than that over time.

Originally posted by Mazer14

Originally posted by onlinenow225

Originally posted by Mazer14

Originally posted by ghoul31

The fact is that some people are going to lose a lot more than they win. And those people are going to have to spend most of their time farming, and not much time pvping. They will get tired of that and quit the game. Eventually there won't be enough people left to keep the game running. So people who want full loot pvp are really just slitting their own throats. 

It'll just mean the people who prefer to farm will have to *gasp* work together and rely on one another to ensure their safety. You're right a lot of people will give up and go back to easy mode raids in WoW where if you wipe it's not a big deal, but WoW can keep those players.

DF will offer excitement. People can decide if a more fun atmosphere is worth the risk.

And when everyone leaves you will have no one to gank/grief.  And then you wont even have a game to play.

You're not proving anything with baseless assumptions.

Every single FFA PvP MMO in the MMO history has mutated into a more carebear rule set.  The ones that didnt mutated just died.

History is studied to avoid to repeat the same mistakes.  The denial of the past wont help.  The prove is the history that we will witnessed and if you didnt witnessed because you werent playing them, then consider to read about them.

I still think a FFA PvP w/full looting is possible but will depend a lot in the core design of the game.  We will have to wait and see what Aventurine actually did to know if it will survive or not.