Originally posted by maskedweasel

Polar, what is fact?  Its something that you can prove without a shadow of a doubt, not what you can prove to the best of your knowledge.

I'll come back to that in a second, first I want to address me "putting words in your mouth"   What you quoted was basically a your arguments as they translate to the Princess Bride.  But of course perhaps you're not trying to say Darkfall will never release?  But what are you trying to prove then? That developers have lives and don't spend all their time developing games as you think they should?

Now back to what you CAN prove.   Tasos lied about his work history.  Well thats yet to be proven 100% truthfully.  You don't know because you haven't spoken with the companies he says he's worked for, and you haven't spoken with Tasos to get clarification.   There was no retraction printed on his work history. 

As for Darkfall not going into beta and the string of development for the past 5 years, well, not much I can say about that.  However I can say that games have been pushed back before, and they will be again.  Maybe not 5 years, then again, perhaps, longer .... we would never know ... this game was announced way early in development whereas many games wait until they're about ready to launch.

So "potentially" being "demonstrated" as a liar is far from fact my friend.   Selling art for "extortionate" prices and "probably" continuing involvment in "similar activities" just leaves too many holes in the "facts" for me to take it as something solid.   Sorry but while there are holes in the argument it leaves people to believe what they want as you do with your "facts"  

By the way, do you know how much art sells for?  I once saw a canvas painted blue, just a blue canvas.. no strokes or anything like that and it was selling for 300 dollars.  Ridiculous.   Someone bought that too.  I could buy a canvas and paint it blue myself.    People can sell art for whatever they want because its art, it's supposedly about emotion, feeling, but moreso in my eyes, decoration.   And the painter sets the price, if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.    Maybe someone will.   

Sorry Maskedweasel I wont continue a conversation with someone who selectively quotes only parts of my previous posts out of their original context and purposely excludes the relevant and verifiable sources of evidence I have provided as part of those posts, presumably to fabricate something said by me that somehow “proves” your point.

All I can say is perhaps you should actually follow your own advice and “just ignore” all of this which you personally consider has “nothing to do with actual games development”.

Of course your entitled to hypocritically continue to do precisely the opposite of your own advice , as you have been doing, and which I’m quite certain you will continue to do, but I wont be responding to you considering your behavior.

Originally posted by Polarization

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Polar, what is fact?  Its something that you can prove without a shadow of a doubt, not what you can prove to the best of your knowledge.

I'll come back to that in a second, first I want to address me "putting words in your mouth"   What you quoted was basically a your arguments as they translate to the Princess Bride.  But of course perhaps you're not trying to say Darkfall will never release?  But what are you trying to prove then? That developers have lives and don't spend all their time developing games as you think they should?

Now back to what you CAN prove.   Tasos lied about his work history.  Well thats yet to be proven 100% truthfully.  You don't know because you haven't spoken with the companies he says he's worked for, and you haven't spoken with Tasos to get clarification.   There was no retraction printed on his work history. 

As for Darkfall not going into beta and the string of development for the past 5 years, well, not much I can say about that.  However I can say that games have been pushed back before, and they will be again.  Maybe not 5 years, then again, perhaps, longer .... we would never know ... this game was announced way early in development whereas many games wait until they're about ready to launch.

So "potentially" being "demonstrated" as a liar is far from fact my friend.   Selling art for "extortionate" prices and "probably" continuing involvment in "similar activities" just leaves too many holes in the "facts" for me to take it as something solid.   Sorry but while there are holes in the argument it leaves people to believe what they want as you do with your "facts"  

By the way, do you know how much art sells for?  I once saw a canvas painted blue, just a blue canvas.. no strokes or anything like that and it was selling for 300 dollars.  Ridiculous.   Someone bought that too.  I could buy a canvas and paint it blue myself.    People can sell art for whatever they want because its art, it's supposedly about emotion, feeling, but moreso in my eyes, decoration.   And the painter sets the price, if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.    Maybe someone will.   

 

Sorry Maskedweasel I wont continue a conversation with someone who selectively quotes only parts of my previous posts out of their original context and purposely excludes the relevant and verifiable sources of evidence I have provided as part of those posts, presumably to fabricate something said by me that somehow “proves” your point.

All I can say is perhaps you should actually follow your own advice and “just ignore” all of this which you personally consider has “nothing to do with actual games development”.

Of course your entitled to hypocritical continue to do precisely the opposite of your own advice , as you have been doing, and which I’m quite certain you will continue to do, but I wont be responding to you considering your behavior.

Its just a cop out, and thats fine.  You take your positions on the battles you know you can win.  Because I didn't quote your whole post you take it as not putting in "verifiable" and "relevant" data.  Relevant to what though?  You never answer my questions, and you always say you won't respond to my because of this or that.  This is the second time you've done this in a thread.  The first time you've personally attacked me. And the second time you haven't proven anything other then conjecture.

All I did was point out the "probably" and the "maybe" in your very own posts.  If you don't want people poking holes in your ----flawless depiction of the failure of Darkfall ----- then be careful on what you write and make sure your information is 100% fact before you spout it off as being.  Thats all I'm saying.

The only thing I'm trying to prove, like I said before, is that you have just as much information regarding the actual state of Darkfall as everyone else.  Your tidbits on their personal lives gives no fact on the actual state of Darkfall, and your unwillingess to answer my questions proves as much without a shadow of a doubt.  Your personal attack on me because of a quote that can easily be found not but 4 posts upwards makes no sense, and the information

"

Yes the Bjorn Erik Larsen who was officially listed as Darkfalls only AI programmer in 2004.

Might not be this Bjorn Eirik Larsen on Garagegames

http://www.garagegames.com/my/home/view.profile.php?qid=42501

Profile: Bjorn Eirik Larsen

Who was saying this on the garage games forum in 2004 about his ideas for NPC AI.

http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=21869

Good thinking Nathaniel. In fact, I'm playing around with the same ideas myself! Consider this:

The Information Game:

Think of the NPCs forming an artificial socal network. If one NPC knows something, he might spread this knowledge by telling other NPCs. The player can make NPCs act directly or indirectly by inserting information into this network. Do you tell the truth? Do you tell a lie? What end result do you want? Any side effects? It doesn't have to be verbal information. What if an NPC sees you murder someone?

The Interaction Game:

An NPC has a personality defined by a few main traits. These traits colour the way the NPC talks and interacts with the player. How reliable is the information the NPC gives you? What can you read between the lines? How can you get the cooperation from an NPC? Can you make the NPC like you, feel attracted to you, respect you, or follow you?

-Bjorn

"

That I left out has no sway on the conjecture of the last part of the post which I was referencing.   SO you can bow out of your own posts again if you want, but don't get mad at me because I point out the faults in your own posts.

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by maskedweasel

This isn't a horse race Theodgrim, this is game development. 

I do minor web development along with minor programming -- but my main function is IT direction at the company I work for.  Last weekend I went to the beach and spent the weekend having a good time with my fiance.  Meanwhile I have a website to rebuild for the company I work for and 2 small batch programs that i need to test for automation this week.

Will the website not get done because I was at the beach last weekend?

Well will darkfall not release because

"Also might not be the same Bjorn Eirik Larsen credited with music composition for The longest journay and "special effects" for Anarchy Online, but hopefully he is becuase at least he would have some credentials and previous experience within the undustry unlike most of the developers.

And he might not be the same Bjorn Eirik Larsen whos enjoying hiking trips in Greece at the same time another Bjorn Eirik Larson was working for Aventurine in Greece.

It might all just be a coincedence, but i doubt it, but of course you or anyone else is free to decide for themselves."

Also, there are many many companies that shut down -- some that even go bankrupt -- and what, do you think the people that worked for those places just disappear?   Just because they go other places, and seek other ventures does not make everything they do a failure.

Again, this isn't a horse race, and if it were a horse race Darkfall wouldn't be just a one trick pony. Maybe the trainer got drunk the night before the race, but maybe the next race that horse will win.  Its conjecture, and nothing I've seen so far is definite enough to change the state of Darkfall right now.

 

Lets not pretend you dont understand an analogy.  You do understand, right?  Then take it for what it was.  And please, read what I wrote.  I already stated that none of the factors in my analogy indicated the "horse" cant or wont "win". 

And still, you misrepresent the OP.  I give up, further discussion seems rather pointless.

I misrepresented nothing, the post was clearly visible on the very same page, and my quote of him was referencing just the portion of his conjecture.  I didn't change his words, and anyone wanting to read the post could have done so.  I understand your analogy.  But in your analogy you have very direct parts to very direct things related to the race.

So in this which part Does Bjorn Larsen play?  Which part does Razorwaxes Bankruptcy play? Which part does Tasos play?   These are the answers needed to truly understand if the horse will win the race.

Furthermore, what is any of this really proving, or meant to prove? I mean Polar clearly has a bias against Darkfall because he thinks it will "end in a whimper"  so what, he thinks it won't release? If thats what he's trying to prove he's not doing that at all.

So what are we really proving here?

Originally posted by maskedweasel

For the benefit of anyone else that might be reading this thread, I will add a few more comments.

Now back to what you CAN prove.   Tasos lied about his work history.  Well thats yet to be proven 100% truthfully.  You don't know because you haven't spoken with the companies he says he's worked for, and you haven't spoken with Tasos to get clarification.   There was no retraction printed on his work history. 

Indeed, it has not been proven "100%" that he didnt work on all the games he listed.  I also dont know the moon isnt made of green cheese, because I have not been there.  This is a quote from Tasos regarding the article in question:

"About an article that appeared on a Greek game site on a short presentation I made at a Greek game developer conference, it's obvious that it contains many inaccuracies and mistakes due to limited knowledge on our game and company. I'm misquoted and misrepresented in the article and I sent them a correction request a few days ago but I see they haven't fixed it yet."

So we have Taso saying how obvious it is that it contains many inaccuracies and mistakes and that he is misquoted and misrepresented.  The only correction he gave them was his job title.  Now why would he go on about all these mistakes when there was only one he corrected?

Why would he not be listed in the credits for any game he worked on, when even interns and testers received credit?  Even if he had some remote relation to all the games he listed, isnt it clear that he implies much more? 

I worked at Jet Propulsion Labratory.  100% true.  So I guess I can claim some small part in the Mars mission.  (I was a contractor installing data communications equipment.)  If I leave out this last part, it is still "true" but gives the wrong impression, doesnt it? 

... this game was announced way early in development whereas many games wait until they're about ready to launch.

No.  This game was announced in 2001 for an expected 2003 release. 

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 I didn't change his words, and anyone wanting to read the post could have done so. 

You didnt change his words, you attributed your own assumed conclusion as the OP's conclusion. 

Furthermore, what is any of this really proving, or meant to prove? I mean Polar clearly has a bias against Darkfall because he thinks it will "end in a whimper"  so what, he thinks it won't release? If thats what he's trying to prove he's not doing that at all.

So what are we really proving here?

If you really understood my analgy, you would know we are not trying to prove anything.  Does a bookie prove a horse is going to lose because he has odds at 40:1?  Of course not. 

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by maskedweasel

For the benefit of anyone else that might be reading this thread, I will add a few more comments.

Now back to what you CAN prove.   Tasos lied about his work history.  Well thats yet to be proven 100% truthfully.  You don't know because you haven't spoken with the companies he says he's worked for, and you haven't spoken with Tasos to get clarification.   There was no retraction printed on his work history. 

Indeed, it has not been proven "100%" that he didnt work on all the games he listed.  I also dont know the moon isnt made of green cheese, because I have not been there.  This is a quote from Tasos regarding the article in question:

"About an article that appeared on a Greek game site on a short presentation I made at a Greek game developer conference, it's obvious that it contains many inaccuracies and mistakes due to limited knowledge on our game and company. I'm misquoted and misrepresented in the article and I sent them a correction request a few days ago but I see they haven't fixed it yet."

So we have Taso saying how obvious it is that it contains many inaccuracies and mistakes and that he is misquoted and misrepresented.  The only correction he gave them was his job title.  Now why would he go on about all these mistakes when there was only one he corrected?

Why would he not be listed in the credits for any game he worked on, when even interns and testers received credit?  Even if he had some remote relation to all the games he listed, isnt it clear that he implies much more? 

I worked at Jet Propulsion Labratory.  100% true.  So I guess I can claim some small part in the Mars mission.  (I was a contractor installing data communications equipment.)  If I leave out this last part, it is still "true" but gives the wrong impression, doesnt it? 

... this game was announced way early in development whereas many games wait until they're about ready to launch.

No.  This game was announced in 2001 for an expected 2003 release. 

 

Unfortunately we don't know exactly what those inaccuracies are.  Perhaps it had to do with the video shown as being new, perhaps it was just his game title, perhaps it was his experience with the games he's worked on.  Perhaps the article misrepresented him on things he never said at all.  We don't know.

Maybe he didn't design anythings for the studios he worked for, maybe he designed something for a contracted vendor and worked for the company indirectly.  We don't kow.

The game announced in 2001 for release in 2003 can be argued as a different game, it was created by a different company with a different set of funds with much less resources.  Then again, its still being managed in some form by the same people.  Even still, the game was announced too early in my opinion because if they would have waited until it was like.. a year from launch.. or in their case recently.. 6 months from launch, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 I didn't change his words, and anyone wanting to read the post could have done so. 

You didnt change his words, you attributed your own assumed conclusion as the OP's conclusion. 

Furthermore, what is any of this really proving, or meant to prove? I mean Polar clearly has a bias against Darkfall because he thinks it will "end in a whimper"  so what, he thinks it won't release? If thats what he's trying to prove he's not doing that at all.

So what are we really proving here?

If you really understood my analgy, you would know we are not trying to prove anything.  Does a bookie prove a horse is going to lose because he has odds at 40:1?  Of course not. 

I only attributed the intended conclusion as I saw it, just as he gives his intended conclusions of what he finds, or even more personally my character.   The point I made was simply that he didn't know, and everyone likes to argue with me about this that his evidence means so much. But it leads to him not knowing. 
 

Sure he has an "educated guess" from the information he found and believes to be viable, but it can be interpreted differently.  To me he's always looking at it from a pessimistic angle with a focus on *proving* that "darkfall will end"  "not with a beta"  "but a whimper"      --- does that sound like someone who is posting unobjective, unbiased information for the purpose of not proving anything? 

Does someone learn all they can about a horse so that they can win a betting game? Yes, thats exactly what they do.  He follows this information because he wants to be right.  You both even take something so miniscule as quoting a half post (which I ended up quoting fully later, with little difference to the point being made)  as a way to skirt answering my questions. 

For anyone who actually cares, which I doubt very many people do.

And also being fully appreciative of the fact that internet arguments are rather sad and pathetic, which obviously never seems to prevent me from partaking in them regularly or anybody else for that matter.

But in the interest of clarity this is the context formed by Trogg13’s post 243 which my response post 244 was selectively quoted from.

Trogg13 in post 243 said:-

“Also, you realise that's an extremely common name in scandanavia, roughly equivalent to John Erik Smith or the like. Very good chance it's not even the same person.”

i.e. the assertion that all of these Bjorn Eirik Larsens I have found information about might not be the same Bjorn Eirik Larsen listed as working for Aventurine as their AI programmer in 2004, despite the identical name and other circumstantial and correlative facts that support the contention that it probably is or at least has a good chance of being.

My reply, post 244, to that assertion was a sarcastic reply to that highly unlikely (in my opinion) statement that this was only a coincidence, and their was no relation to them because they are all separate people sharing the same name, Bjorn Eirik Larsen, all of which where involved with game development and/or being in Greece around the time of 2004.

All of my statements about Bjorn Eirik Larson, whether they are indeed all different Bjorn Eirik larsens or not, were backed up with verifiable 3^rd party information I had posted previously or in the post itself.

As anyone can see clearly for themselves Maskedweasel, 25 posts later selectively quoted only part of my reply to another poster and removed the supporting evidence and my remarks context because he/she considered “its not necessary”or "not important".

Well I’m afraid I do consider all those things to be necessary and important when conducting debate or discourse etc. and I wont engage in a conversation with someone who does not consider them necessary or important.

Originally posted by Polarization

 

For anyone who actually cares, which I doubt very many people do.

And also being fully appreciative of the fact that internet arguments are rather sad and pathetic, which obviously never seems to prevent me from partaking in them regularly or anybody else for that matter.

But in the interest of clarity this is the context formed by Trogg13’s post 243 which my response post 244 was selectively quoted from.

Trogg13 in post 243 said:-

“Also, you realise that's an extremely common name in scandanavia, roughly equivalent to John Erik Smith or the like. Very good chance it's not even the same person.”

i.e. the assertion that all of these Bjorn Eirik Larsens I have found information about might not be the same Bjorn Eirik Larsen listed as working for Aventurine as their AI programmer in 2004, despite the identical name and other circumstantial and correlative facts that support the contention that it probably is or at least has a good chance of being.

My reply, post 244, to that assertion was a sarcastic reply to that highly unlikely (in my opinion) statement that this was only a coincidence, and their was no relation to them because they are all separate people sharing the same name, Bjorn Eirik Larsen, all of which where involved with game development and/or being in Greece around the time of 2004.

All of my statements about Bjorn Eirik Larson, whether they are indeed all different Bjorn Eirik larsens or not, were backed up with verifiable 3^rd party information I had posted previously or in the post itself.

As anyone can see clearly for themselves Maskedweasel, 25 posts later selectively quoted only part of my reply to another poster and removed the supporting evidence and my remarks context because he/she considered “its not necessary”.

Well I’m afraid I do consider all those things to be necessary when conducting debate or discourse etc. and I wont engage in a conversation with someone who does not consider them “necessary”.

Ahem, well since you must obviously be new to posting on these forums, you'll notice people quote half-posts all the time.  I'm sorry if it offends you your majesty, but I went on to quote the rest of the post in a following post.

I would also like to point out that Polar has very strict replying rules if you want to challenge his posts.

1) He will reply to personal attacks. #205 and #213 are good examples BUT...

2) He won't respond to you if you consider yourself unobjective, or try an inbiased approach to srgument or be devils advocate to his flame war.  http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/188158/page/2 #47

3) He won't respond to you if you post a partial post and reference it in the same thread, or post all the data thereafter even if what you're quoting has mostly to do with his own wording of his own post. #272 #276 referencing posts #270 and #277

4) He will tell you he's unbiased, unobjective, and wants to let people make up their own mind, but what he doesn't tell you is that he really expects everyone to agree with his pessimistic view.  http://mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Polarization 5 most recent posts and Quote

Are there any more rules I need to know so that I can respond to your next post?

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Unfortunately we don't know exactly what those inaccuracies are.  Perhaps it had to do with the video shown as being new, perhaps it was just his game title, perhaps it was his experience with the games he's worked on.  Perhaps the article misrepresented him on things he never said at all.  We don't know.

Well, we know what he asked to be changed.  Job title.  And we know that in his own words, he seemed to see many inaccuracies.  Why he would not ask to have these other inaccuracies corrected is indeed a mystery.   Funny that he has not addressed these inaccuracies directly with his fan base.   He clearly chooses not too.

Maybe he didn't design anythings for the studios he worked for, maybe he designed something for a contracted vendor and worked for the company indirectly.  We don't kow.

No we dont.  And why not?  Wasnt the purpose of disclosing the info to inform us?

The game announced in 2001 for release in 2003 can be argued as a different game, it was created by a different company with a different set of funds with much less resources.  Then again, its still being managed in some form by the same people.  Even still, the game was announced too early in my opinion because if they would have waited until it was like.. a year from launch.. or in their case recently.. 6 months from launch, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Darkfall is the same game, with the same major players.  The name on the door changed, and different people sign their checks.  You could argue this is a different game, but it is a weak argument.

If they had waited six months to a year before launch, they would likely have announced some time in 2002.  And little would have changed.

Sure he has an "educated guess" from the information he found and believes to be viable, but it can be interpreted differently.  To me he's always looking at it from a pessimistic angle with a focus on *proving* that "darkfall will end"  "not with a beta"  "but a whimper"      --- does that sound like someone who is posting unobjective, unbiased information for the purpose of not proving anything? 

How about this: the data he uncovered lead him to his own conclusion, rather than the other way around.  He never said it can only be interpreted in one way.  He also made it clear that he doesnt expect all of his conclusions to be completely accurate.  You dont seem to be reading those posts.

Does someone learn all they can about a horse so that they can win a betting game? Yes, thats exactly what they do.  He follows this information because he wants to be right. 

And?  Do you not want to be right?  If you do, dont you use the best information available to you?

I fully expect Darkfall to release.  I believe Polar does as well.  However, I have serious misgivings about the frankness of the dev team and even their ability to deliver on their promises.  That is not because I am a dirty mean pessimist.  It is because I have experience and have seen all of this before.  Of course there is a chance that my past experiences are not an accurate predictor of this situation and I accept that.  I hope I am wrong, I just dont think I am.  Most fanatics hope they are right...the end.

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Unfortunately we don't know exactly what those inaccuracies are.  Perhaps it had to do with the video shown as being new, perhaps it was just his game title, perhaps it was his experience with the games he's worked on.  Perhaps the article misrepresented him on things he never said at all.  We don't know.

Well, we know what he asked to be changed.  Job title.  And we know that in his own words, he seemed to see many inaccuracies.  Why he would not ask to have these other inaccuracies corrected is indeed a mystery.   Funny that he has not addressed these inaccuracies directly with his fan base.   He clearly chooses not too.

Maybe he didn't design anythings for the studios he worked for, maybe he designed something for a contracted vendor and worked for the company indirectly.  We don't kow.

No we dont.  And why not?  Wasnt the purpose of disclosing the info to inform us?

The game announced in 2001 for release in 2003 can be argued as a different game, it was created by a different company with a different set of funds with much less resources.  Then again, its still being managed in some form by the same people.  Even still, the game was announced too early in my opinion because if they would have waited until it was like.. a year from launch.. or in their case recently.. 6 months from launch, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Darkfall is the same game, with the same major players.  The name on the door changed, and different people sign their checks.  You could argue this is a different game, but it is a weak argument.

If they had waited six months to a year before launch, they would likely have announced some time in 2002.  And little would have changed.

Sure he has an "educated guess" from the information he found and believes to be viable, but it can be interpreted differently.  To me he's always looking at it from a pessimistic angle with a focus on *proving* that "darkfall will end"  "not with a beta"  "but a whimper"      --- does that sound like someone who is posting unobjective, unbiased information for the purpose of not proving anything? 

How about this: the data he uncovered lead him to his own conclusion, rather than the other way around.  He never said it can only be interpreted in one way.  He also made it clear that he doesnt expect all of his conclusions to be completely accurate.  You dont seem to be reading those posts.

Does someone learn all they can about a horse so that they can win a betting game? Yes, thats exactly what they do.  He follows this information because he wants to be right. 

And?  Do you not want to be right?  If you do, dont you use the best information available to you?

I fully expect Darkfall to release.  I believe Polar does as well.  However, I have serious misgivings about the frankness of the dev team and even their ability to deliver on their promises.  That is not because I am a dirty mean pessimist.  It is because I have experience and have seen all of this before.  Of course there is a chance that my past experiences are not an accurate predictor of this situation and I accept that.  I hope I am wrong, I just dont think I am.  Most fanatics hope they are right...the end.

 

Theodgrim there are many questions regarding certain parts of Darkfalls ethical and relational background, Tasos in particular.  He obviously doesn't always do the right thing, or say the right thing, and unfortunately he, right now, is the only Public Relation we have.  Again, I wish we could simply find out what information was incorrect, all of it, and put this thing to rest, but unfortunately in this -- and many -- circumstances with regards to the Darkfall team, we don't have the luxury of a personal one on one news story with each of them to get all the answers we desire. Perhaps Tasos in his own words may have exaggerated the amount of inaccuracies.  Or perhaps after watching a film of his statement he found he did say all those things, and could only nitpick just to not look like a fool.

That being said, its not that I have a particular problem with you, or with Polar for that matter although its obvious he has a problem with me.  I just poke holes where I find them as he has been doing with darkfall. 

I also see a problem with the quote I gave about "how darkfall ends" on his profile.  To me it screams bias.  At times  I can appreciate the information he finds, but it always seems like theres a twist to each and every post.  Such as his twist on Bjorn and the paintings. Even if it is the same guy he makes it sound like the Darkfall dealbreaker is that his guy would be selling his paintings.  Not everything the developers do is make or break for darkfall.   A lot of the time he does say certain things are not accurate.. but other times he claims they are fact, and I believe Tasos lying about his involvement in certain games is supposed to be one of those "facts."  I'm just trying to weed out the good information from the bad.

I mean I could be totally out there on this, but the fact his quote says darkfall will end without a beta doesn't make me believe he thinks the game will launch.  Noone knows what agenda he has, for all we know he could be misleading when he says he wants Darkfall to release. 

Personally I could be right or I could be wrong, I'm not waiting for Darkfall to launch or fail, but if it launches, I'll play it.  I'm really waiting on Spore more then anything else :)

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Theodgrim there are many questions regarding certain parts of Darkfalls ethical and relational background, Tasos in particular.  He obviously doesn't always do the right thing, or say the right thing, and unfortunately he, right now, is the only Public Relation we have.  Again, I wish we could simply find out what information was incorrect, all of it, and put this thing to rest, but unfortunately in this -- and many -- circumstances with regards to the Darkfall team, we don't have the luxury of a personal one on one news story with each of them to get all the answers we desire. Perhaps Tasos in his own words may have exaggerated the amount of inaccuracies.  Or perhaps after watching a film of his statement he found he did say all those things, and could only nitpick just to not look like a fool.

But for you (your opinion) did Tasos lie or not?  OJ Simpson was found innocnet but many people think he is guilty.  You are entitle to have your opinion.  Of course, your opinion can be "I dont know".

That being said, its not that I have a particular problem with you, or with Polar for that matter although its obvious he has a problem with me.  I just poke holes where I find them as he has been doing with darkfall.

You think you find hole.  You think you poked in the holes.  That's your opinion.

My opinion is that you deliberated quoted him out of context.  You posted a set of phrases which had a different meaning when they are quoted separately from the rest he wrote and that's exactly quoting out of context.  Its very difficult not to do it... that's what I learned writting my thesis and other papers.  It's pretty difficult not to fall in miss quoting people.

And calling him Princess Bride... does it has a negative or a positve meaning in englihs?  It sounds like a negative one.  Do you think that in a discussion calling others negative things will help the discussion?  Most probably will get an emotional answer from the other (pretty much negative)... actually... that's trolling.  I had andwered to names in the past until I had a second to think what I am doing.  After cooling down, usually I stop talking to the other person.  there is no point in discussing someone that would use negative names or miss quote things.  So I do understand Polar in that one.

I also see a problem with the quote I gave about "how darkfall ends" on his profile.  To me it screams bias.  At times  I can appreciate the information he finds, but it always seems like theres a twist to each and every post.  Such as his twist on Bjorn and the paintings. Even if it is the same guy he makes it sound like the Darkfall dealbreaker is that his guy would be selling his paintings.  Not everything the developers do is make or break for darkfall.   A lot of the time he does say certain things are not accurate.. but other times he claims they are fact, and I believe Tasos lying about his involvement in certain games is supposed to be one of those "facts."  I'm just trying to weed out the good information from the bad.

I think its pretty clear that he is biased.  That's my opinion, of course.   Does that mean that the info presented by him should not be analyze by us?  No, we should analyse it as any other info presented here.  Does that mean that his opinion my be biased?  Yes, of course.  Does that mean I should not read his opinion? No.  I have to read his opinion and I want to cuz actually I think he is a rational person and I like how he discuss.  Remember discussion doesnt mean that anyone will change the others way of thiking or opinion.  We dont change othes opinions.  Each of us can only change ourselves.

Now, you said that nothing can be prove beyond doubt but you do think Polar is biased just because a phrase in his profile!  That's cool... as I said we all have our opinions.  I think he is baised too.  So I ask you... even with doubts... do you think Tasos lied to all of us when he listed his previous works or did he spoke the truth?  What is your opinion with the info we have?  If you can reach a conclution about Polar, I think you may had reach a conclution about Tasos too.  A conclution that, of course, maybe wrong (that's after all what opinions are).

You said you trying to weed the good info from the bad.  Here is a huge problem.  How you do it?  Do you have some special process to do it?  You do know that's pretty hard to do?  One think is to give you opinion about some information, another thing is to be able to weed about the good from the bad.  You can decide what is good and bad info but its your opinion again.  Nothing more.  And its perfect.  We do it all the time.  Polar do it all the time too.  I do it.  All the people you know do it.  Its part of how our brain works.  But the funny thing is you accuse Polar of deciding what a fact is and what is not.  But then you will weed the good from the bad... doing exactly whaty Polar does.  Not sure if I explain myself good here.  English is difficult for me.  In essence you are accusing Polar of doing exactly what you are doing.

I mean I could be totally out there on this, but the fact his quote says darkfall will end without a beta doesn't make me believe he thinks the game will launch.  Noone knows what agenda he has, for all we know he could be misleading when he says he wants Darkfall to release. 

The agenda he has?  He = Polar?  What agendo do you have?  How can I know trust your words now?  I think you are in fact attacking the person (in this case Polar) and not discussing the Subject of the thread.  I think you are just trolling.

Personally I could be right or I could be wrong, I'm not waiting for Darkfall to launch or fail, but if it launches, I'll play it.  I'm really waiting on Spore more then anything else :)

Is having alts agreeing with each other ina  post an infringement of forum rules ?

Originally posted by Isane

Is having alts agreeing with each other ina  post an infringement of forum rules ?

Major Infractions

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• Multiple Accounts
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Also it's a little bit sad imo

Interesting post keeper2000, rather existential, certainly is fascinating to see other peoples perspective of my character and my perceived attitudes, and don’t worry your English in my opinion is certainly adequate enough to articulate some rather sophisticated concepts.

Originally posted by Isane

Is having alts agreeing with each other ina  post an infringement of forum rules ?

Yes and you can report anyone you think it does that.

You should read the forum rules so you wont need to ask these kind of questions in threads and then you wont be hijacking the subject discussed, which is in itself an infringment to the forum rules too.

Originally posted by Polarization

 

If the developers do indeed release this comprehensive game play video using in game footage soon, and successfully launch the game in the next 5 months and it has the majority of the features, content and game play they have talked about for the last 7+ years then I will be playing it and publicly accepting my interpretation’s of these facts was incorrect.

We are all entitled to opinions as long as we don't confuse them with facts. That said given that time and energy is finite, wouldn't your time and energy be used on being positive and constructive rather than negative and destructive? Instead of being active in the community to make suggestions, you spend trying to disprove something you cannot possible disprove because you don't have access to all the facts.

I guess you have placed yourself in a loose-loose situation. If the game isn't released, what good is that to you ? The only loosers are the devs and their investors. If the game release, you have wasted time you could have been doing something else - like supporting another game.

Originally posted by Keeper2000

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Theodgrim there are many questions regarding certain parts of Darkfalls ethical and relational background, Tasos in particular.  He obviously doesn't always do the right thing, or say the right thing, and unfortunately he, right now, is the only Public Relation we have.  Again, I wish we could simply find out what information was incorrect, all of it, and put this thing to rest, but unfortunately in this -- and many -- circumstances with regards to the Darkfall team, we don't have the luxury of a personal one on one news story with each of them to get all the answers we desire. Perhaps Tasos in his own words may have exaggerated the amount of inaccuracies.  Or perhaps after watching a film of his statement he found he did say all those things, and could only nitpick just to not look like a fool.

But for you (your opinion) did Tasos lie or not?  OJ Simpson was found innocnet but many people think he is guilty.  You are entitle to have your opinion.  Of course, your opinion can be "I dont know".

That being said, its not that I have a particular problem with you, or with Polar for that matter although its obvious he has a problem with me.  I just poke holes where I find them as he has been doing with darkfall.

You think you find hole.  You think you poked in the holes.  That's your opinion.

My opinion is that you deliberated quoted him out of context.  You posted a set of phrases which had a different meaning when they are quoted separately from the rest he wrote and that's exactly quoting out of context.  Its very difficult not to do it... that's what I learned writting my thesis and other papers.  It's pretty difficult not to fall in miss quoting people.

And calling him Princess Bride... does it has a negative or a positve meaning in englihs?  It sounds like a negative one.  Do you think that in a discussion calling others negative things will help the discussion?  Most probably will get an emotional answer from the other (pretty much negative)... actually... that's trolling.  I had andwered to names in the past until I had a second to think what I am doing.  After cooling down, usually I stop talking to the other person.  there is no point in discussing someone that would use negative names or miss quote things.  So I do understand Polar in that one.

I also see a problem with the quote I gave about "how darkfall ends" on his profile.  To me it screams bias.  At times  I can appreciate the information he finds, but it always seems like theres a twist to each and every post.  Such as his twist on Bjorn and the paintings. Even if it is the same guy he makes it sound like the Darkfall dealbreaker is that his guy would be selling his paintings.  Not everything the developers do is make or break for darkfall.   A lot of the time he does say certain things are not accurate.. but other times he claims they are fact, and I believe Tasos lying about his involvement in certain games is supposed to be one of those "facts."  I'm just trying to weed out the good information from the bad.

I think its pretty clear that he is biased.  That's my opinion, of course.   Does that mean that the info presented by him should not be analyze by us?  No, we should analyse it as any other info presented here.  Does that mean that his opinion my be biased?  Yes, of course.  Does that mean I should not read his opinion? No.  I have to read his opinion and I want to cuz actually I think he is a rational person and I like how he discuss.  Remember discussion doesnt mean that anyone will change the others way of thiking or opinion.  We dont change othes opinions.  Each of us can only change ourselves.

Now, you said that nothing can be prove beyond doubt but you do think Polar is biased just because a phrase in his profile!  That's cool... as I said we all have our opinions.  I think he is baised too.  So I ask you... even with doubts... do you think Tasos lied to all of us when he listed his previous works or did he spoke the truth?  What is your opinion with the info we have?  If you can reach a conclution about Polar, I think you may had reach a conclution about Tasos too.  A conclution that, of course, maybe wrong (that's after all what opinions are).

You said you trying to weed the good info from the bad.  Here is a huge problem.  How you do it?  Do you have some special process to do it?  You do know that's pretty hard to do?  One think is to give you opinion about some information, another thing is to be able to weed about the good from the bad.  You can decide what is good and bad info but its your opinion again.  Nothing more.  And its perfect.  We do it all the time.  Polar do it all the time too.  I do it.  All the people you know do it.  Its part of how our brain works.  But the funny thing is you accuse Polar of deciding what a fact is and what is not.  But then you will weed the good from the bad... doing exactly whaty Polar does.  Not sure if I explain myself good here.  English is difficult for me.  In essence you are accusing Polar of doing exactly what you are doing.

I mean I could be totally out there on this, but the fact his quote says darkfall will end without a beta doesn't make me believe he thinks the game will launch.  Noone knows what agenda he has, for all we know he could be misleading when he says he wants Darkfall to release. 

The agenda he has?  He = Polar?  What agendo do you have?  How can I know trust your words now?  I think you are in fact attacking the person (in this case Polar) and not discussing the Subject of the thread.  I think you are just trolling.

Personally I could be right or I could be wrong, I'm not waiting for Darkfall to launch or fail, but if it launches, I'll play it.  I'm really waiting on Spore more then anything else :)

 

I can comment on a number of things here but I'm not going to make this tough, I'll stick to what I feel are most important to the conversation.  First of all, and most importantly, how does what I said change when you read his whole post other then just the partial post I wrote?  Answer, it doesn't. Read it with all the information, read it with only the quote I posted.  My reply was to Polars demeanor towards the developers doing other things. Like when he posted about how Tasos was in some greek gaming club or something... like because of this the game won't be finished.  Thats a pretty lame excuse, and paper thin nomatter how you slice it.  Misquote or not, it gives the same effect.  Don't you agree?

What is my agenda?  I don't have to repeat myself, but check my post history in regards to Darkfall, I've always shown my true colors, and its only to keep things fair.  For every reason a DarkFall hater wants to come here to bring grief to the believers, I'll be here to poke holes in their "maybe" "probably" arguments until the game is confirmed abandoned, or its been released.  You seem to think its fine for him to post negative comments to others, and on these boards about this game, but why is it a problem when someone challenges his own statements?

NOW my opinion on what Tasos says?  I take it all with a grain of salt.  I don't know if he's going to follow through or not, but I take his word as the only word we've got, so I can only go on what he says.  Not what joe or mick or polar says, because they aren't involved.  Only tasos, or the few the have actually seen the game.  Furthermore do I think he actually worked for those companies?  Truthfully I don't care.  If you've ever seen dinner impossible, that guy apparently lied about his work history. His show was cancelled and they aren't sure if they will give him back another season.  But does that change how great he's been in all the seasons thus far?  No, and he still gets the job done... and thats all I care about, is a finished product.  I don't care if Tasos does it or SOE, or if Razorwax opens back up and Burt Reynolds develops the thing, I'd just like to see it finished.

They left Razorwax running so noone could take the money they were getting with Aventurine and so they kept RW running long enough to file for bankruptcy... Wasnt Razorwax created in 2001? So 2006 makes 5 years... Interesting indeed.

Originally posted by SlyLoK

They left Razorwax running so noone could take the money they were getting with Aventurine and so they kept RW running long enough to file for bankruptcy... Wasnt Razorwax created in 2001? So 2006 makes 5 years... Interesting indeed.

it is just we really dont have all the info needed to go with this to make a judgemeant on anything

Originally posted by Xris375

 

We are all entitled to opinions as long as we don't confuse them with facts.

I agree, thats why I posted all the facts I based my opinion on, and not just my opinion.

That said given that time and energy is finite, wouldn't your time and energy be used on being positive and constructive rather than negative and destructive?

I believe I am being positive and constructive, I'm providing new information and facts for the community to discuss, with my opinion of what they might mean.

If those facts and information are indeed negative and destructive then that is the developers fault, not mine, they are responsible for them, not me, and it will be positive to help reveal the truth, whatever that truth might be.

Instead of being active in the community to make suggestions, you spend trying to disprove something you cannot possible disprove because you don't have access to all the facts.

I was "active in the community" making suggestions  many years and 2 failed beta starts ago. now its under 5 months before open beta and launch, i dont need to prove or disprove anything.

I agree i dont have access to all the facts, but at least i provided some new facts, and those facts as well as everything else leads me to believe beyound reasonable doubt that a skeptical opinion is waranted.

But It's the developers and their supporters that have to prove their claims in under 5 months time, not me that has to disprove them, if you cant see this then it's hopeless.

I guess you have placed yourself in a loose-loose situation.

On the contrary i believe it is a win/win situation.

If the game isn't released, what good is that to you ?

I get the predictable satisfaction of bieng proven correct, yet again, and get to enjoy another MMO disaster and all the ensuing drama, without any frustration or disapointment.

The only loosers are the devs and their investors.

And the community members who have hoped,dreamed and kept the faith for 7+ years and  anyone who potentially wants to see more MMO's like Darkfall developed in the future.

And the supporters and defenders who have spent years promoting and attacking anyone whos been critical and skeptical all these years.

If the game release, you have wasted time you could have been doing something else - like supporting another game.

If the game releases and its everything thats been promised, thats great, i get to play the holy grail of MMO's in under 5 months, and all i have to do is publicaly admit i was wrong, hardly a high price to pay.

But at the same time, if it does not, because i have zero expectations about anything regarding this project anymore, it will be impossible for me to be disapointed or frustrated.

So like i said, its win / win for me all the way baby, like it is everytime this happens.

And I have not wasted my time because i enjoy my time spent on these forums, irespective of the outcome.

Originally posted by Keeper2000

Originally posted by Isane

Is having alts agreeing with each other ina  post an infringement of forum rules ?

Yes and you can report anyone you think it does that.

You should read the forum rules so you wont need to ask these kind of questions in threads and then you wont be hijacking the subject discussed, which is in itself an infringment to the forum rules too.

 

But it is relevant and this thread is all over the place... and I have already reported due to your advice thanks.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010124014300/www.razorwax.com/company/index.html

Frode johannesen, listed as one of Darkfall's programmers in 2001.

Is another developer who’s no longer involved with Darkfall’s development.

• Frode Johannesen

  View Profile

  Senior Software Engineer at Point Carbon

  Location:

  Norway

  Industry:

  Computer Software

  Current:

  Senior Software Engineer at Point Carbon

  Past:

  T-Rank AS; Retriever Norge AS; INN AS; Razorwax AS

More evidence, like so many of the other developers for this project, that Bjorn Tore Oren, “one of the original minds behind Darkfall” and one of Darkfalls designers and “lead world designer” has no previous experience or credentials in the industry.

 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/b0/659

Bjørn Tore Øren

Or has decided not to list them on his CV for some reason, but at least he still appears to be working on Darkfall.

Did you expect that everyone involved with this project is people with 20+ years of gaming development experience?

I will give you a lesson; People have to start somewhere, you can't expect them to have several years of experience if they say they wont.

And nice diggin' Mr. Prosecutor

Originally posted by Vansinne

Did you expect that everyone involved with this project is people with 20+ years of gaming development experience?

Nope, But I did expect at least one of them to have previous game development experience.

I will give you a lesson; People have to start somewhere, you can't expect them to have several years of experience if they say they wont.

Thanks for that, condescending captain obvious, even though I’m not quite sure exactly what you were trying to say.

Of course they have to start somewhere, but starting with an incredibly ambitious and complex MMO with the most amazing proposed feature and content list ever is probably not the best place to start in my opinion.

And nice diggin' Mr. Prosecutor

30 min’s on google, linkedin and web.archive.org ,but thanks anyway, and well worth it if I don’t say so my self.