Originally posted by dirtknap69

with all this digging, which i have to say is hilarious and showcases what a sad, sad individual you must be in real-life,

What you call "digging" I call spending a few mins putting some words in google, what I find interesting is that so few of the supporters of this project or company appear to of done this over the last 8 years, perhapes because they dont like what they find, or are afraid of what they have found or more importantly not found.

But let me guess, people who spend time defending this company and its game by attacking anyone who is critical is definately not hilarious or showcases what sad, sad individual's  they must be in real-life?

i think you've forgotten about the 5 released videos, several hundred screenshots, and several hundred pages of released developer updates and journals.

Nope, I'm well aware of them, they may impress people who are desperate to believe or have very low standards, I myself require something much more substantial from a project that has been in development for 8 years and promised so much.

the game looks amazing and there is a ton of released media. you'd have to be beyond stupid to think this has all been fabricated.

I never said it was fabricated, not sure who your talking too, your opinion that this game looks "amazing" or that there is a "ton" of released media is just your opinion, many people dont agree with you, myself included.

who gives a crap about how long it takes as long as it's good.

Unfortunatly things that take a long time (over 8 years) are not normaly "good", for obvious common sense reasons and the multible examples from previous MMO's development historys.

Polar, your arguments border on the sphere of paranoia; just wait for the Open Beta and make any claims afterwards...

Odd thing about those videos, we have not seen a new one in over a year and I have yet to see a UI in them.

Some games actually reach beta before the reality hits that the game is a real oops, like Gods and Heros, we have not even seen a video of the current state of the game in how long and you are going to use them as evidence that they are near beta?   Sorry this game is not even close to alpha yet or we would have seen some videos of a working game lately. 

If we see beta by 2009 we will be extremely fortunate.

Originally posted by Friction2u

 

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Originally posted by Polarization
http://www.persistentworldz.com/mmogdevelopment.html
The following MMOGs are either in development (that includes non-English language games being localized), or beta trial. It should be noted that during our last review it became apparent that some development/beta had not progressed in over a year; these MMOGs have been set as cancelled/closed. In other cases development does see some activity but at a pace that is so slow that these MMOGs are already outdated and "unlikely to be commercially released"; they have been included until our next review at which time if no significant progress has been made they will be moved to the cancelled/closed list.
Date of last update: October, 2007

 

Darkfall Online
Under development by Adventurine but unlikely to be commercially released

 

 

---

 

Interesting that they say that about Chronicles of Spellborn too.

*shrug*

At the end of the day that is only their opinion as outsiders without any inside knowledge. There are a lot of people on these forums who are the same.

Don't you mean that all of the people (who do not work at Aventurine) everywhere (including Forumfall) are only voicing their opinion as outsiders without any inside knowledge?  Or are you saying that some privileged supporters get inside scoops that are not publicly available?

Originally posted by Friction2u

 

---

Originally posted by Polarization
http://www.persistentworldz.com/mmogdevelopment.html
The following MMOGs are either in development (that includes non-English language games being localized), or beta trial. It should be noted that during our last review it became apparent that some development/beta had not progressed in over a year; these MMOGs have been set as cancelled/closed. In other cases development does see some activity but at a pace that is so slow that these MMOGs are already outdated and "unlikely to be commercially released"; they have been included until our next review at which time if no significant progress has been made they will be moved to the cancelled/closed list.
Date of last update: October, 2007

 

Darkfall Online
Under development by Adventurine but unlikely to be commercially released

 

 

---

 

Interesting that they say that about Chronicles of Spellborn too.

*shrug*

At the end of the day that is only their opinion as outsiders without any inside knowledge. There are a lot of people on these forums who are the same.

Bah, that could go for Bioware's MMO. 3 years of development and not even a title has been announced.

I call vaporware

http://www.flickr.com/groups/ggdc2008/pool/

For those who enjoy playing spot the Tasos.

How’s this for a paranoid, insane, crackpot black helicopter thinking conspiracy theory for you.

Did Tasos really go to two game developers conference’s to make presentation’s for Aventurine on Darkfall less then 6 months before it’s officially scheduled to start open beta and launch apparently with nothing more then a few old videos and screenshots already previously released.

And by the looks of things appeared to of had some technical difficulty’s even demonstrating just those (or whatever it was) at the second conference.

http://www.thegame.gr/forum/index.php?showtopic=61428&mode=linear

http://www.pcmaster.gr/newforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13486

http://www.e-global.gr/forum/index.php?showtopic=416

http://forum.bnb.gr/showthread.php?t=43090

Here’s another paranoid conspiracy theory for you, “professional testers” recruited from various Greek online gaming/computer websites who are expected to work locally for free as interns part time and full time,

Are almost certainly not going to be adequate to sufficiently Beta test the most ambitious and largest featured MMO ever.

Likewise a company attempting to recruit “Level designers” from various Greek online gaming/computer websites with “some experience in level design” is likewise hardly reassuring considering what we have been told about how wonderful and exciting the Darkfall world is/ will be.

I like this thread

I dunno how you manage to find this stuff Polar, but keep it comin

Maybe its just me, but i cant find Aventurine listed as a greece company, i wanted to see their financial reports:

Audiovisual is the same kind of company (S.A) and i have no problems finding the,.

Audiovisual Enterprises S.A.

http://www.crmz.com/directory/CountryGR.htm

http://www.crmz.com/Report/ReportPreview.asp?BusinessId=8439698

http://www.ase.gr/content/en/announcements/dailypress/Daily_Announcements.asp?announ_id=16290

why cant i find that kind of info for aventurine S.A. ? They arnt even listed there.

http://www.ase.gr/content/en/Companies/ListedCo/Profiles/ListedCo_SearchResults.asp?co=aventurine&submit3.x=28&submit3.y=12

Is it because they havnt filed their accounts, not once since 2003? or whenever it was.

Polar,

thanks for the pics, those were a nice find!

However I'm not sure I follow your argumentation; what exactly do these prove? That Tasos was not there? He was, can be seen in many of the pictures.

That they wanted to recruit testers from the local market? But we knew they were going to do that, it had been mentioned many Dev. Journals back.

We don't know how many of those testers they recruited, and we don't know whether they have others, more 'professional' testers at work too (they had mentioned something about the difficulties of flying-in testers from abroad)...

So all in all, nice finds, but

Originally posted by Galadourn

Polar,

thanks for the pics, those were a nice find!

 

However I'm not sure I follow your argumentation; what exactly do these prove? That Tasos was not there? He was, can be seen in many of the pictures.

What?

Let me try again.

Tasos recently represented Aventurine at two separate Greek game developers conferences, and made presentations of Darkfall and his company at both.

But apparently only showed old screen shots and videos, some from a couple of years ago, that have already been released to the community.

Under 6 months before Darkfall a “feature complete” game, currently in “internal beta” is scheduled to start public beta and then launch.

Tasos is still using old videos and screenshots to demonstrated the game, the very same screenshots and videos they have already used previously over the years to “demonstrate” the game to the community.

 

That they wanted to recruit testers from the local market? But we knew they were going to do that, it had been mentioned many Dev. Journals back.

Let me try again.

Apparently the most ambitious , largest feature list MMO with a massive amount of content, with the most dynamic and complex game play systems ever attempted , with a huge world etc. etc., is being Beta tested by Interns recruited locally from colleges and university’s or from online gamming websites at the Aventurine offices.

That sounds completely ridiculous to me, almost as ridiculous as the claim that AI “bots” are also helping them adequately test Darkfall.

 

We don't know how many of those testers they recruited, and we don't know whether they have others, more 'professional' testers at work too (they had mentioned something about the difficulties of flying-in testers from abroad)...

As far as I’m concerned these are the only “testers” they have recruited, if you can provide evidence that they have any others then please disclose it.

So all in all, nice finds, but

ok, ok, now I follow...

According to gameworld.gr there were two videos: an old one (the one posted in Youtube) and another one. That other one remains to be seen apparently.

And those ads for testers, are just that: ads. They don't prove they hired any of those guys (although common sense would indicate that they hired at least a few).

I can't quite understand what's wrong with posting ads for needed positions. That's what ads are for anyway, they just chose to advertise in the greek sites, which is a very sound decision if you want to recruit locals for some of the testing...I don't think there is any question of 'professionalism' there

or, let me phrase that a bit more eloquently:

The guys they probably recruited are most probably all computer-science students; they are not a random individual picked up from the street.

They probably have in-depth knowledge of how computers work, and I'd also assume that prior to testing they'd have been given a small seminar from the developers explaining to them how the game works and what is regarded as normal behavior of the engine and what not.

So all in all, I don't see those guys as random employment choices.

Originally posted by Galadourn

ok, ok, now I follow...

 

According to gameworld.gr there were two videos: an old one (the one posted in Youtube) and another one. That other one remains to be seen apparently.

No it does not, we know that both videos that were shown are old ones that have been previously shown to the community, please read the appropriate threads that have proven this already.

Or you could simply go to the two Darkfall videos posted by GameWorld on Youtube and see for yourself.

The screenshots were from 2006 and 2007.

And those ads for testers, are just that: ads. They don't prove they hired any of those guys (although common sense would indicate that they hired at least a few).

I can't quite understand what's wrong with posting ads for needed positions. That's what ads are for anyway, they just chose to advertise in the greek sites, which is a very sound decision if you want to recruit locals for some of the testing...I don't think there is any question of 'professionalism' there

 

or, let me phrase that a bit more eloquently:

 

The guys they probably recruited are most probably all computer-science students; they are not a random individual picked up from the street.

They probably have in-depth knowledge of how computers work, and I'd also assume that prior to testing they'd have been given a small seminar from the developers explaining to them how the game works and what is regarded as normal behavior of the engine and what not.

So all in all, I don't see those guys as random employment choices.

If you cant see anything wrong with Darkfall still only being Beta tested under 6 months before launch by “professional testers” recruited from Greek gaming websites and local colleges/university’s, who are expected to work for free as interns, and are expected to do so in-house at the Aventurine offices.

Or AI “bots” then I don’t know what to say, in my opinion and judging by the numerous past examples of MMO’s that have not had adequate public Beta testing in the past, this sounds like a complete disaster waiting to happen when the public Beta starts as planned “a few weeks” before launch this year.

 

Originally posted by Artermis

Maybe its just me, but i cant find Aventurine listed as a greece company, i wanted to see their financial reports:

Audiovisual is the same kind of company (S.A) and i have no problems finding the,.

Audiovisual Enterprises S.A.

http://www.crmz.com/directory/CountryGR.htm

http://www.crmz.com/Report/ReportPreview.asp?BusinessId=8439698

http://www.ase.gr/content/en/announcements/dailypress/Daily_Announcements.asp?announ_id=16290

why cant i find that kind of info for aventurine S.A. ? They arnt even listed there.

http://www.ase.gr/content/en/Companies/ListedCo/Profiles/ListedCo_SearchResults.asp?co=aventurine&submit3.x=28&submit3.y=12

Is it because they havnt filed their accounts, not once since 2003? or whenever it was.

Aventurine is not a publicly traded company. The web site you are trying is the athens stock exchange site. Two companies can have the same legal form (S.A.) but they dont all have to be publicly traded in a stock exchange. No wonder why you did not find Aventurine there.

Originally posted by Galadourn

ok, ok, now I follow...

 

According to gameworld.gr there were two videos: an old one (the one posted in Youtube) and another one. That other one remains to be seen apparently.

 

And those ads for testers, are just that: ads. They don't prove they hired any of those guys (although common sense would indicate that they hired at least a few).

I can't quite understand what's wrong with posting ads for needed positions. That's what ads are for anyway, they just chose to advertise in the greek sites, which is a very sound decision if you want to recruit locals for some of the testing...I don't think there is any question of 'professionalism' there

 

or, let me phrase that a bit more eloquently:

 

The guys they probably recruited are most probably all computer-science students; they are not a random individual picked up from the street.

They probably have in-depth knowledge of how computers work, and I'd also assume that prior to testing they'd have been given a small seminar from the developers explaining to them how the game works and what is regarded as normal behavior of the engine and what not.

So all in all, I don't see those guys as random employment choices.

 

Just to clarify, the term professional is not used for people that don't get paid to do that work.  So while I paint pictures, I am not a professional painter until I sell that crap.

So college students working for free with aren't exactly 'professional testers'.

Originally posted by huxflux2004

Aventurine is not a publicly traded company. The web site you are trying is the athens stock exchange site. Two companies can have the same legal form (S.A.) but they dont all have to be publicly traded in a stock exchange. No wonder why you did not find Aventurine there.

Here’s some information about Aventurine SA.

OBJECTIVE “SERVICES ON THE DEVELOPMENT & DESIGN SOFTWARE”

DESCRIPTION “SOFTWARE CONSULTANCY AND SUPPLY”

http://jobs.acci.gr/bs/eng/do_search.asp

http://jobs.acci.gr/bs/eng/details.asp?am=%09O%2E%FE%E8%1Ap%29m%7C%A1%DD%8A%8A%BF%92%60%3A%C1%EC%DF%01%9B%98G%85%8C%1Br%BC%B8i%23%B2

Can you please translate or explain what this means?

anyone paid to perform a specific role is a professional. if they are paid to test a game, then they are professional testers.

Originally posted by dirtknap69

anyone paid to perform a specific role is a professional. if they are paid to test a game, then they are professional testers.

There not paid, they are interns, do try to actually read things before you comment on them.

Originally posted by dirtknap69

anyone paid to perform a specific role is a professional. if they are paid to test a game, then they are professional testers.

So, these chickens are professional musicians?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFKfIkSzQp4&feature=related

Give me a break.  As has been mentioned, Aventurine's "pro testers" are interns, they dont get paid.  At least those chickens get room and board for their work, but I still would not call them pro musicians.

More delightful Darkfall weirdness, from “Game Developer’s Market Guide” published in 2003.

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by dirtknap69

anyone paid to perform a specific role is a professional. if they are paid to test a game, then they are professional testers.

 

So, these chickens are professional musicians?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFKfIkSzQp4&feature=related

Give me a break.  As has been mentioned, Aventurine's "pro testers" are interns, they dont get paid.  At least those chickens get room and board for their work, but I still would not call them pro musicians.

LOL

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by dirtknap69

anyone paid to perform a specific role is a professional. if they are paid to test a game, then they are professional testers.

 

So, these chickens are professional musicians?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFKfIkSzQp4&feature=related

Give me a break.  As has been mentioned, Aventurine's "pro testers" are interns, they dont get paid.  At least those chickens get room and board for their work, but I still would not call them pro musicians.

Hey, if someone gives me money to play the piano at their wedding, I hope they don't mind that I can't play the piano. After all, they paid me, so I'm a professional.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1121902

Aventurines and Darkfalls reputation is so notorious that people have even started using them as examples in research papers now.

"New Product Preannouncement as a Signaling Strategy: An Audience-Specific Review and Analysis"

1. Introduction Firms in several highly competitive industries and markets often use deliberate signaling as a strategic product management tool.

One of the most widely used signaling tools is new product preannouncement (NPP)1, a versatile and ambiguous communication process that companies utilize to send messages to target groups before launching the new product (Herbig 1997).

Use of new product preannouncements is pervasive in many industries, varying from automobiles to airplanes, from consumer electronics to movies, from computer software to hardware.

Firms use a variety of media such as tradeshows, news conferences, company websites, interviews, and speeches to make such preannouncements.

Some recent well-known examples include Microsoft’s Windows Vista, Apple’s iPhone, and J. K. Rowling’s new book “Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows”.

Preannouncements can bring both benefits and costs to firms. In general, the benefits of new product preannouncements include creating demand for the preannounced new products, providing early information of innovative features to customers or distributors, helping firms to test new product designs and prices, forecasting future market potentials, reducing customers’ costs of switching to the new products, and deterring entry of competitors.

The costs and risks of new product preannouncements, however, may include information spillover, cannibalization to the firm’s existing products, risks of losing credibility if unable to launch as preannounced, retaliatory action from competitors, and risks of antitrust litigations.

However, the benefits and costs of preannouncements from an audience-specific perspective are less well understood. This article divides the target audience of the new product preannouncement into four groups: customers, competitors, investors, and distributors.

Benefits and costs of a preannouncement vary among these groups and firms need to apply group-specific weights in assessing the overall benefits and costs prior to making new product preannouncements. They also need to consider the expected reactions of the preannouncements from these four groups in the preannouncement decisions.

Table 4. An Incomplete List of Well Known Vaporware in Recent Years

They also list TF2 as vaporware, which is weird because I played it last night Doesn't say much about the quality of their research, how embarrassing...

What a sad life you must lead Polar to spend time digging up all this irrelevant stuff.

Originally posted by chokepoint

They also list TF2 as vaporware, which is weird because I played it last night Doesn't say much about the quality of their research, how embarrassing...

 

What a sad life you must lead Polar to spend time digging up all this irrelevant stuff.

 

 

I beg to differ.  I believe it's quite relevent to educate people on at the very least the dudious state of affairs regarding this or any other entity practicing this type of business.

However, what I think is sad is how you and others here take personal potshots at people who actually do some investigative work and time and time again refute and or rebuff the fanbois comments with facts.  Were as the others and you included just spout rhetoric.