Darkfall Forum » General Discussion » Claus Grovdal, Creator of Darkfall and its Lead Designer/Producer and other Darkfall developers CV's.*Update Razorwax AS Bankrupt 2006

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by Silvarch

Originally posted by Zorvan

I don't think it'll hurt interest in this type of game.

Not in playing it, surely, but it will hurt interest to invest in this type of game. While as a dev you might be very enthusiastic about a concept, it's hard to sell it to an investor only interested in the bottom line if all of its previous examples have been failures, and the more examples the harder it is to argue that there isn't any correlation between the base concept and all its past failures.

 

But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".

This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.

Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?

And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.

This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.

Uhhh... No I think he didn't go with big name companies because no one wanted a FFA full loot game. They all wanted to make another WoW clone, and would probably say stuff like, "Sure, we'll fund you, you need to put safe zones into the game though."

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Zorvan

 

But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".

This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.

Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?

And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.

This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.

Uhhh... No I think he did go with big name companies because no one wanted a FFA full loot game. They all wanted to make another WoW clone, and would probably say stuff like, "Sure, we'll fund you, you need to put safe zones into the game though."

Please name these “big name companies” and provide any evidence that Aventurine has any involvement with them.

Originally posted by Polarization

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Zorvan

 

But you have to consider who Tasos/Aventurine targeted for investing. Small, no-name companies and single individuals. Companies and people who probably didn't have the knowledge of gaming and what a developer should be bringing to the table when asking for investments. People who could be easily blinded by "big returns".

This is why they didn't go to SOE, Mythic, Codemasters, etc.,etc. and get funded. Not because the game idea was bad, but because those companies know what to look for and would have smelled the burn a 100 miles away.

Edit: Doesn't this make alot more sense now? Instead of "We turned all the big boys down"?

And why do you think not one of these "big boys" ever admitted that Aventurine approached them? Because Aventurine didn't.

This is exactly what Colton Burgess did with Thrones of Chaos ( Mourning ). Found no-name individual investors while he hawked screenshots and a "tech demo" of the game before running with the money.

Uhhh... No I think he did go with big name companies because no one wanted a FFA full loot game. They all wanted to make another WoW clone, and would probably say stuff like, "Sure, we'll fund you, you need to put safe zones into the game though."

Please name these “big name companies” and provide any evidence that Aventurine has any involvement with them.

 

My mistake, I had a typo. I meant DIDN'T. No big company these days would be interested in funding a niche game based on a sandbox free open world. They're all too busy making instanced pieces of crap like AoC and more WoW/EQ clones based on loot and raiding. Thats where the money is.

I think there are probably many other much more important reasons why “big name companies” are not or have not been interested in funding Darkfall or Razorwax/Aventurine, but ill leave it at that.

Originally posted by Polarization

I think there are probably many other much more important reasons why “big name companies” are not or have not been interested in funding Darkfall or Razorwax/Aventurine, but ill leave it at that.

Well go ahead, instill us with some of your grand speculative knowledge. None of us know the state of the game, making assumptions isn't going to really get anywhere.

The only people I can think of are Ten Ton Hammer, Asp, and Women's Gamers. Asp loved it, but he was sort of noobish in his presentation of the material, women's gamers back in 06 doubted the devs would ever be satisfied enough to release the game because they were obsessed with having it be perfect.

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.

 

It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0

good raw information,  but crackpot theories on how and why.

Let see what was the last theory?  Henning owning everything while the rest of the crackpot devs mooch off his hard work.

How the hell does painting card game pictures on nights and weekends pay for a studio of 30 devs?

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.

 

It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0

 

good raw information,  but crackpot theories on how and why.

Let see what was the last theory?  Henning owning everything while the rest of the crackpot devs mooch off his hard work.

 

How the hell does painting card game pictures on nights and weekends pay for a studio of 30 devs?

I don't care about this buffoonery you call theories or your white knighting, I deal with facts, and these are it.

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.

 

It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0

 

good raw information,  but crackpot theories on how and why.

Let see what was the last theory?  Henning owning everything while the rest of the crackpot devs mooch off his hard work.

 

How the hell does painting card game pictures on nights and weekends pay for a studio of 30 devs?

 

I don't care about this buffoonery you call theories or your white knighting, I deal with facts, and these are it.

No this is odd random  fact babble babble babble.  Another odd random fact babble babble babble.  I am trying to filter through the facts right now,  but cutting them from Polars mindless rants is a tad time consuming.  I am sorry by the sad fact I have a life and am not keeping pace with mr stalker over there.

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.

 

It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0

 

good raw information,  but crackpot theories on how and why.

Let see what was the last theory?  Henning owning everything while the rest of the crackpot devs mooch off his hard work.

 

How the hell does painting card game pictures on nights and weekends pay for a studio of 30 devs?

 

I don't care about this buffoonery you call theories or your white knighting, I deal with facts, and these are it.

 

No this is odd random  fact babble babble babble.  Another odd random fact babble babble babble.  I am trying to filter through the facts right now,  but cutting them from Polars mindless rants is a tad time consuming.  I am sorry by the sad fact I have a life and am not keeping pace with mr stalker over there.

The facts are not random, nor do you have to filter through "babble", unless you include your own.  Perhaps if you spent your limited time reading, rather than making knee-jerk remarks/insults, you could eventually add to the discussion.

Polar quick question,  where are you getting that Jade El Mehdawi and Tasos were orginally involved in Razorwax from its very beginning?

I am seeing Mehdrawi taking major shares of Razorwax around 2003?  which goes hand in hand with them merging with his other large investment aventurine.

Also tasos has said before in journals that they have done Military Gaming Consulting with other companies in their group.  Those companies could be the ones mentioned owned by other darkfall developers.

I am really also confused where the hell your conjecture is heading,  one minute they are poor till they get some funds up and hire outside contracts,  next minute they are rich hiring major  consulting firms.  This also goes against multiple eye witness accounts of a major studio with 20 or so developers working.  Not to mention photos.

Plus the gambling with razorwax?  that is probably just a general heading categorizing that type of business.

You speculation off the Henning changes from owner to partner off a social networking site is just insane black helicopter thinking.  All the people here who used that service basically told you that already so i will stop repeating it.

Originally posted by gotha

 This also goes against multiple eye witness accounts of a major studio with 20 or so developers working.  Not to mention photos.

lol. You think just because someone rents out an office space and some people behind computers there that it means it's "Major Studio" ?

I can rent an office tomorrow with 20 computers and bring in college kids working for peanuts too and fund it all for years if i wanted to. I guess that makes me a Major Studio?? I'll even invite you in to take photo's!

Originally posted by gotha

No this is odd random  fact babble babble babble.  Another odd random fact babble babble babble.  I am trying to filter through the facts right now

The fact that this things been in development since 2001 and has jack shit to show for it should be more than enough fact for anyone to conclude that its a dirty stale bird.

Still waiting for that new video they promised to release "in the next few weeks"  over 5 weeks ago.  I mean it's not like they only have 5 months left to a commercial launch or anything..

Oh wait.. they do only have 5 months left.

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=59283

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.

 

It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0

 

good raw information,  but crackpot theories on how and why.

Let see what was the last theory?  Henning owning everything while the rest of the crackpot devs mooch off his hard work.

 

How the hell does painting card game pictures on nights and weekends pay for a studio of 30 devs?

 

I don't care about this buffoonery you call theories or your white knighting, I deal with facts, and these are it.

 

No this is odd random  fact babble babble babble.  Another odd random fact babble babble babble.  I am trying to filter through the facts right now,  but cutting them from Polars mindless rants is a tad time consuming.  I am sorry by the sad fact I have a life and am not keeping pace with mr stalker over there.

 

The facts are not random, nor do you have to filter through "babble", unless you include your own.  Perhaps if you spent your limited time reading, rather than making knee-jerk remarks/insults, you could eventually add to the discussion.

I am reading,  and I am not making stupid speculation off changes in social networking website.  As far as I am concerned i am still way above the fold.  So many if ands or buts too that any speculation off it is pointless.

Right now out of all the findings the only thing that actually find interesting is this razorwax deal with past investors.  But i would like someone from norway,  who actually has some knowledge of business to look at it before i start spouting off conspiracies theories.

Polar makes it sounds like some giant sin that one of the early founders was not mentioned in a generalized interview to a gaming website.  Maybe besides some nice funding he was not important to the damn early development.  You are not going to go into insane detail about every investor,  inspiration figure and any other crap in that kind of an interview. 

There are some other things that indicate possible and semi likely odd business dealings.  Looks really possible that the Devs left some investors to rot when they switch over to aventurine.  But the evidence also shows that is a major studio of 20-30 devs plus subcontractors working on this game.  Eye witness accounts and even pictures prove this.  The fact some have moved on to other jobs is not odd at all.  Because some 3d artist were contracted to assist in the art work is not by any means a red flag.

Originally posted by Ztalin

 

Originally posted by gotha

 This also goes against multiple eye witness accounts of a major studio with 20 or so developers working.  Not to mention photos.

 

lol. You think just because someone rents out an office space and some people behind computers there that it means it's "Major Studio" ?

I can rent an office tomorrow with 20 computers and bring in college kids working for peanuts too and fund it all for years if i wanted to. I guess that makes me a Major Studio?? I'll even invite you in to take photo's!

Originally posted by gotha

No this is odd random  fact babble babble babble.  Another odd random fact babble babble babble.  I am trying to filter through the facts right now

 

The fact that this things been in development since 2001 and has jack shit to show for it should be more than enough fact for anyone to conclude that its a dirty stale bird.

Still waiting for that new video they promised to release "in the next few weeks"  over 5 weeks ago.  I mean it's not like they only have 5 months left to a commercial launch or anything..

Oh wait.. they do only have 5 months left.

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=59283

 

Ok so now they are shipping people in to make it look like a studio extremely fast?  What are you now Alex Jones?

This is the kind of stupid paranoid speculation I am talking about.  hell forumfallers/fanois here are being portrayed as snitches and some sort of spy on your neighbor gestapo.  That is insane,  all they are is just another large dumb  fanbase like any other game.

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

There are some other things that indicate possible and semi likely odd business dealings.  Looks really possible that the Devs left some investors to rot when they switch over to aventurine.  But the evidence also shows that is a major studio of 20-30 devs plus subcontractors working on this game.  Eye witness accounts and even pictures prove this.  The fact some have moved on to other jobs is not odd at all.  Because some 3d artist were contracted to assist in the art work is not by any means a red flag.

 

HAHA thats funny. I'm not even really following darkfall but that is just funny. Sorry bud but Eye witness's and prictures prove nothing what-so-ever. If you cant figure out why pictures and what someone "says" they have seen doesnt prove crap then there is no hope for you.

Originally posted by gotha

I am reading,  and I am not making stupid speculation off changes in social networking website.  As far as I am concerned i am still way above the fold.  So many if ands or buts too that any speculation off it is pointless.

 

Right now out of all the findings the only thing that actually find interesting is this razorwax deal with past investors.  But i would like someone from norway,  who actually has some knowledge of business to look at it before i start spouting off conspiracies theories.

 

Polar makes it sounds like some giant sin that one of the early founders was not mentioned in a generalized interview to a gaming website.  Maybe besides some nice funding he was not important to the damn early development.  You are not going to go into insane detail about every investor,  inspiration figure and any other crap in that kind of an interview. 

 

There are some other things that indicate possible and semi likely odd business dealings.  Looks really possible that the Devs left some investors to rot when they switch over to aventurine.  But the evidence also shows that is a major studio of 20-30 devs plus subcontractors working on this game.  Eye witness accounts and even pictures prove this.  The fact some have moved on to other jobs is not odd at all.  Because some 3d artist were contracted to assist in the art work is not by any means a red flag.

 

Regardless of the validity of eye witness accounts, that's an oxymoron.

I'm still interested in reading the "intelligent conclusion" you talked about coming to after looking "over the shit". Now there's more "shit" to look over, though some would call it verifiable facts, so I'm sure I'm not the only one who's interested in reading your spin on it, not simply discounting Polarization's.

Originally posted by gotha

You speculation off the Henning changes from owner to partner off a social networking site is just insane black helicopter thinking. All the people here who used that service basically told you that already so i will stop repeating it.

Polar quick question, where are you getting that Jade El Mehdawi and Tasos were orginally involved in Razorwax from its very beginning?

Where are you getting that I said they were originally involved in Razorwax from the very beginning?

I am seeing Mehdrawi taking major shares of Razorwax around 2003? which goes hand in hand with them merging with his other large investment aventurine.

Razorwax did not “merge” with Aventurine in Oct/Dec 2002, it continued as a separate company until it was decreed by court insolvent and bankrupt in 2006.

Please provide your evidence to support your claim that Jade El Mehdawi made a “large” investment in Aventurine.

Also tasos has said before in journals that they have done Military Gaming Consulting with other companies in their group. Those companies could be the ones mentioned owned by other darkfall developers.

Please provide evidence to support your claim that Aventurine has other companies in its group.

Please provide evidence that Darkfall developers own any “Military Gaming Consulting” companies.

Please provide evidence that any of these have ever been successfully in “Military Gaming Consulting”.

I am really also confused where the hell your conjecture is heading, one minute they are poor till they get some funds up and hire outside contracts, next minute they are rich hiring major consulting firms. This also goes against multiple eye witness accounts of a major studio with 20 or so developers working. Not to mention photos.

So now my conjecture and “analytical skills” which you said “are about as useful as a special needs class” are confusing you?, oh dear.

Please explain how you have deduced that hiring some outside contractors for limited periods of time and using consultants for something indicates Aventurine are definitely “rich”.

If you are referring to “eye witness accounts” of 20 developers working on Darkfall like the GameRifts.com article from 2004, that is precisely the list of developers I have been using to help find information.

Plus the gambling with razorwax? that is probably just a general heading categorizing that type of business.

Please provide evidence that sweepstakes, bingo or gambling were definitely “probably just a general heading” for the company’s publicly stated business, and do not have any indication as to what the owners and investors of Razorwax originally intended it for or attempted to run it as at some time.

http://paulneale.com/clients.htm

2004

Adventurine Games:

• Wrote custom tools for Adventurine Games for the online game Darkfall.

2003

• Adventurine Games:
  • Scripted tools for a gaming company in Greece called Aventurine. I created tools for stitching together meshes and averaging vertex normals that were then written to an XML format for export to the game.

http://www.imaginefx.com/02287754333084841675/henning-ludvigsen.html

Now and then
 

For Henning, life seems to have its own rhythm at the moment: “Living in a foreign country means it’s hard to make any long term plans, so I live more in the moment than I did before,” says the artist, “and lately I’ve had too many requests to be able to deal with half of it, and have to turn down decent offers.”

It’s not surprising that time seems to be slipping away given the number of projects Henning has on the boil: “Besides working fulltime on the Darkfall game I’m also working on some more trading cards for Fantasy Flight Games, a website and a magazine.” Then the thing to watch for: “A secret project I can’t talk about yet.”

“I’ve always been quite ambitious,” says Henning, “I work hard to reach the milestones I set for myself.” Fortunately, those milestones are things we can all identify with: “I want to be able to work fulltime with things I really enjoy doing, like 2D digital art.” Looks like he might just get that wish.
 

http://www.persistentworldz.com/mmogdevelopment.html

The following MMOGs are either in development (that includes non-English language games being localized), or beta trial. It should be noted that during our last review it became apparent that some development/beta had not progressed in over a year; these MMOGs have been set as cancelled/closed. In other cases development does see some activity but at a pace that is so slow that these MMOGs are already outdated and "unlikely to be commercially released"; they have been included until our next review at which time if no significant progress has been made they will be moved to the cancelled/closed list.

Date of last update: October, 2007

---

Originally posted by Polarization
http://www.persistentworldz.com/mmogdevelopment.html
The following MMOGs are either in development (that includes non-English language games being localized), or beta trial. It should be noted that during our last review it became apparent that some development/beta had not progressed in over a year; these MMOGs have been set as cancelled/closed. In other cases development does see some activity but at a pace that is so slow that these MMOGs are already outdated and "unlikely to be commercially released"; they have been included until our next review at which time if no significant progress has been made they will be moved to the cancelled/closed list.
Date of last update: October, 2007

Darkfall Online
Under development by Adventurine but unlikely to be commercially released

---

Interesting that they say that about Chronicles of Spellborn too.

*shrug*

At the end of the day that is only their opinion as outsiders without any inside knowledge. There are a lot of people on these forums who are the same.

http://www.gamedevmap.com/index.php?tool=location&query=Athens

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Originally posted by gotha

Originally posted by BosamMaster

Good stuff man, slowly, but surely we are unvealing Aventurine's true form.It seems to me like these guys sold the idea of DF, then got started on the game, and were tremendously overwhelmed by reality of game development, bunch of rookies.Would explain a lot of things.

 

It also reassures me that this game is indeed never coming out, or if it is it'll be DnL2.0

 

good raw information,  but crackpot theories on how and why.

Let see what was the last theory?  Henning owning everything while the rest of the crackpot devs mooch off his hard work.

 

How the hell does painting card game pictures on nights and weekends pay for a studio of 30 devs?

 

I don't care about this buffoonery you call theories or your white knighting, I deal with facts, and these are it.

 

No this is odd random  fact babble babble babble.  Another odd random fact babble babble babble.  I am trying to filter through the facts right now,  but cutting them from Polars mindless rants is a tad time consuming.  I am sorry by the sad fact I have a life and am not keeping pace with mr stalker over there.

 

The facts are not random, nor do you have to filter through "babble", unless you include your own.  Perhaps if you spent your limited time reading, rather than making knee-jerk remarks/insults, you could eventually add to the discussion.

 

I am reading,  and I am not making stupid speculation off changes in social networking website.  As far as I am concerned i am still way above the fold.  So many if ands or buts too that any speculation off it is pointless.

 

Right now out of all the findings the only thing that actually find interesting is this razorwax deal with past investors.  But i would like someone from norway,  who actually has some knowledge of business to look at it before i start spouting off conspiracies theories.

 

Polar makes it sounds like some giant sin that one of the early founders was not mentioned in a generalized interview to a gaming website.  Maybe besides some nice funding he was not important to the damn early development.  You are not going to go into insane detail about every investor,  inspiration figure and any other crap in that kind of an interview. 

 

There are some other things that indicate possible and semi likely odd business dealings.  Looks really possible that the Devs left some investors to rot when they switch over to aventurine.  But the evidence also shows that is a major studio of 20-30 devs plus subcontractors working on this game.  Eye witness accounts and even pictures prove this.  The fact some have moved on to other jobs is not odd at all.  Because some 3d artist were contracted to assist in the art work is not by any means a red flag.

 

Polar did a lot of work on this, and I can respect that. While I take everything I see on the internet with a grain of salt, a lot of this raises eyebrows.
 

I havent seen a comparable level of commitment in disproving  any of this Gotha, in fact, it seems you are working with less proof, and have little more than conjecture to "debunk" any of this.

So on one hand I have a guy who spent a lot of time looking this stuff up, on the other hand I have a guy who says "nuh uh!" with little more than insults to back it up.

I think if Darkfall crashes and burns, and more of this comes to light, you sir, would owe someone an apology.

Another freelance concept Artist who contributed work for Aventurine on Darkfall at some time, for some period of time.

http://www.deligaris.com/

http://www.metafysiko.gr/fantasygate/index.php?module=writeit&action=read&id=37

http://deligaris.deviantart.com/

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/contractor_display.php?contractor_id=4359

Wicked RGB

Wicked RGB is a new comprehensive collection of international superb elite computer artists. And we are here to stay.
We are here to push your project to the maximum level of graphical quality.

Our artists have contributed to...
Games
"Darkfall online" - Aventurine S.A (MMORPG game)

The work of our artists is usually performed remotely.

http://www.animationinsider.net/article.php?articleID=880

http://www.fxguide.com/modules.php?name=press&file=print&id=174

WickedRGB no longer seems to exist as a company, presumably Aventurine contracted this company’s services in the 2004-2005 time period.

with all this digging, which i have to say is hilarious and showcases what a sad, sad individual you must be in real-life, i think you've forgotten about the 5 released videos, several hundred screenshots, and several hundred pages of released developer updates and journals.

the game looks amazing and there is a ton of released media. you'd have to be beyond stupid to think this has all been fabricated.

who gives a crap about how long it takes as long as it's good.