Originally posted by deviliscious

Now silly, I don't paint everything in the game for the worse, I  have seen the potential in this game for many years now, and  Honestly believe, by this point that if this game was in the hands of the right developers it would have been great by now. The problem being Jagex often thinks of the very thing that needs to be improved, and then does the opposite of what  needs to happen.  If they had chosen to go a different direction you could be playing a great game by now. 

Just imagine for a second a Runescape where all items in game are craftable, tradable, socketable, salvagabe, and able to be decorated and colored via the skill system. Game balance put into socketing, gathering skills actually had an end  reward,  like take the idea they had with Miscelania and  instead add mines, lumberyard, fishing boats ect, as you increase in mining you gain more miners, fishing, fishing boats, wc, lumberjacks so that by the time you max those skills you don;t have to continue to do them in order to gain a benefit from the levels you earned. Imagine a game where your crafting/ smithing/ fletching items were actually worth more than the materials you made them from. That you could place your own designs on armor, add more sockets for  added stat bonuses, and salvage the items for the materials you made them from if you cannot sell the item.  Now that would be a crafting system they could boast about. They chose not to go that direction, instead they keep adding more items that devalue the crafting system and  causing more useless items and grind to be in the game.

They are not solving the problems here, they are creating more by not making a new game. Think about the appeal to new members coming in wanting to have  santa suit   at christmas because they see everyone else running around in one and being told " you can never do that"  then seeing a pumpkin head, chicken, scythe, bunny ears .. the same thing. The problem with games that have run as long as this is that it is full of a decades worth of loot newbies can never have, so  there comes a point when the kid asks" where do I get one?" and being told they never will that they  think why bother playing this when I can never attain what I want, or it will take me 10 years to get enough in game cash to even be able to buy the armors and weapons they wish to use as well? Why would anyone new want to come into that environment?

If those problems are not solved in addition to the actual game mechanics that need to be addressed, you can't expect new players to want to stay.  When starting a new game, they really should consider the new guys coming in as well, if they want to keep them coming. For example an idea to resolve that issue for a long term solution, would be to instead of give unattainable items, you  give a craftable item or a way to decorate existing items instead. Then each year you bring back old events, as well as add new events. That way, new players have to do more events in order to obtain he same ability to make items, but still are able to do so. I don;t have a problem letting some new kid have bunny ears too. The more bunny ears available for everyone the better. :)

There really is so much that could be improved on this game to make it a great game, but  I do not see Jagex expanding their niche here, I see them obliterating it by making it medicore by trying to  half ass attempt to immitate other games, rather than giving it unique qualities that make it stand out in the crowd.  If they focused on what sets it apart, and took that to another level, they would gain ground rather than lose it. The ability to  train everything on one character, and be able to switch styles quickly in combat was the only good thing about their combat system. They decided to break that rather than add  to it, making it a very limited class based games, as there are not even that many classes in Runescape to begin with.

It has been hard over the years though watching them destroy their crafting system, player rewards,  game mechanics, community, and now the combat system  when the game really has so much potential.  After so long, you get to the point where you lose faith in them to pull it out.  I give them credit when credit is deserved, but I also let them know when they are making a mess of things as well.

Reading that only makes me more sure of my opinion. We can agree to disagree I guess.

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by deviliscious

Now silly, I don't paint everything in the game for the worse, I  have seen the potential in this game for many years now, and  Honestly believe, by this point that if this game was in the hands of the right developers it would have been great by now. The problem being Jagex often thinks of the very thing that needs to be improved, and then does the opposite of what  needs to happen.  If they had chosen to go a different direction you could be playing a great game by now. 

Just imagine for a second a Runescape where all items in game are craftable, tradable, socketable, salvagabe, and able to be decorated and colored via the skill system. Game balance put into socketing, gathering skills actually had an end  reward,  like take the idea they had with Miscelania and  instead add mines, lumberyard, fishing boats ect, as you increase in mining you gain more miners, fishing, fishing boats, wc, lumberjacks so that by the time you max those skills you don;t have to continue to do them in order to gain a benefit from the levels you earned. Imagine a game where your crafting/ smithing/ fletching items were actually worth more than the materials you made them from. That you could place your own designs on armor, add more sockets for  added stat bonuses, and salvage the items for the materials you made them from if you cannot sell the item.  Now that would be a crafting system they could boast about. They chose not to go that direction, instead they keep adding more items that devalue the crafting system and  causing more useless items and grind to be in the game.

They are not solving the problems here, they are creating more by not making a new game. Think about the appeal to new members coming in wanting to have  santa suit   at christmas because they see everyone else running around in one and being told " you can never do that"  then seeing a pumpkin head, chicken, scythe, bunny ears .. the same thing. The problem with games that have run as long as this is that it is full of a decades worth of loot newbies can never have, so  there comes a point when the kid asks" where do I get one?" and being told they never will that they  think why bother playing this when I can never attain what I want, or it will take me 10 years to get enough in game cash to even be able to buy the armors and weapons they wish to use as well? Why would anyone new want to come into that environment?

If those problems are not solved in addition to the actual game mechanics that need to be addressed, you can't expect new players to want to stay.  When starting a new game, they really should consider the new guys coming in as well, if they want to keep them coming. For example an idea to resolve that issue for a long term solution, would be to instead of give unattainable items, you  give a craftable item or a way to decorate existing items instead. Then each year you bring back old events, as well as add new events. That way, new players have to do more events in order to obtain he same ability to make items, but still are able to do so. I don;t have a problem letting some new kid have bunny ears too. The more bunny ears available for everyone the better. :)

There really is so much that could be improved on this game to make it a great game, but  I do not see Jagex expanding their niche here, I see them obliterating it by making it medicore by trying to  half ass attempt to immitate other games, rather than giving it unique qualities that make it stand out in the crowd.  If they focused on what sets it apart, and took that to another level, they would gain ground rather than lose it. The ability to  train everything on one character, and be able to switch styles quickly in combat was the only good thing about their combat system. They decided to break that rather than add  to it, making it a very limited class based games, as there are not even that many classes in Runescape to begin with.

It has been hard over the years though watching them destroy their crafting system, player rewards,  game mechanics, community, and now the combat system  when the game really has so much potential.  After so long, you get to the point where you lose faith in them to pull it out.  I give them credit when credit is deserved, but I also let them know when they are making a mess of things as well.

Reading that only makes me more sure of my opinion. We can agree to disagree I guess.

What exactly do you disagree with?  You think having skills that are useless in game and a mindless repetition of grind is a good thing for the game? Or that having access to all game content on one character and being able to switch styles quickly was not what set them apart from the rest in regards to pvp combat:? When you look at the class based games on the market, you have many classes to choose from whether it be necromancers or Mesmers, they have a wide variety of classes to choose from. For Runescape to move towards class based mechanics by penalizing switching styles and hardening the combat triangle, you are removing the only niche they did have in regards to their combat system. What now do they have to offer that they do better in regards to combat than other games? Nothing as far as I can tell considering the limited combat styles to choose from and the powered up combat traingle pretty much nerfed the only thing they did have to offer that other games did not. 

In regards to new players,  I have given out Runescape memberships for years for christmas presents to family and friends. My sister would not play it after she found out she could not get bunny ears.  People do not like coming in late to games for the reason that they have already missed out on the fun. If they are paying the same amount coming in ( actually more for new players in Runescape's case)  They want access to the same content everyone else has. If they cannot ever have access to that content, why would they  want to pay  more than others and receive less?

Please clarify what exactly you disagree with, as I am not seeing how  devaluing the crafting system, taking out the best part of pvp combat, and withholding content from new players while charging them more could possibly be benficial for the the health of the game long term. 

Originally posted by Uhwop

I just wanted to give an honest criticism, I didn't read past the first three worlds. 

I would read it, but the red text on black background just makes it awful to try. 

I agree with you. I tried reading it, but lost interest due to trying to stay focused. Not bashing, just wanted the OP to know.

  Draron:

Since  you seem to think that I am just attempting to paint hem in a bad light, as you can see from my post here in developers corner from 2007,   their combat system did have much to offer prior to the EoC that other games did not. If they had just taken that a step further rather than  12 steps backwards, I  would be complimenting them right now instead of telling them  how bad they messed up.

PVP discussion developers corner 2007:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/159765/page/1

And since you seem to think all I do is bash Jagex, here are a just a couple of my posts giving them their credit when Credit is due:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/292553/Runefest-2010.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344284/Verdict-on-new-armour-designs.html

Originally posted by deviliscious

  Draron:

Since  you seem to think that I am just attempting to paint hem in a bad light, as you can see from my post here in developers corner from 2007,   their combat system did have much to offer prior to the EoC that other games did not. If they had just taken that a step further rather than  12 steps backwards, I  would be complimenting them right now instead of telling them  how bad they messed up.

PVP discussion developers corner 2007:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/159765/page/1

 

And since you seem to think all I do is bash Jagex, here are a just a couple of my posts giving them their credit when Credit is due:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/292553/Runefest-2010.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344284/Verdict-on-new-armour-designs.html

You can stop putting words in my mouth and dragging this on, already gave my points about subscription numbers and such.

The EoC isn't a factually bad update. It comes to taste, just as I said over and over yet you have to rebuttle as if it's a proven fact the update is wrong. Like I said before, it's preference only. No need to go back and forth.

Leaving it at that.

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by deviliscious

  Draron:

Since  you seem to think that I am just attempting to paint hem in a bad light, as you can see from my post here in developers corner from 2007,   their combat system did have much to offer prior to the EoC that other games did not. If they had just taken that a step further rather than  12 steps backwards, I  would be complimenting them right now instead of telling them  how bad they messed up.

PVP discussion developers corner 2007:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/159765/page/1

 

And since you seem to think all I do is bash Jagex, here are a just a couple of my posts giving them their credit when Credit is due:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/292553/Runefest-2010.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344284/Verdict-on-new-armour-designs.html

You can stop putting words in my mouth and dragging this on, already gave my points about subscription numbers and such.

The EoC isn't a factually bad update. It comes to taste, just as I said over and over yet you have to rebuttle as if it's a proven fact the update is wrong. Like I said before, it's preference only. No need to go back and forth.

Leaving it at that.

Factually?  Facts are the number of people cancelling their memberships, the number of website hits, the number of bots in the game.. Not say " lets go look at the high score list".

It can be considered a matter of taste as to whether or not you like the update as a whole, but whether or not it is good for the health of the game long term is not really an opinion, it can be backed up with  actual data. When you  have a great number of people cancelling their memberships, leaving the game, and not having new players come and stay,  all you have to do is take a look at what those players are telling you, and the data sheets  to determine whether or not it was a hit or miss.

When you tell me that you disagree, but do not specify what you disagree with, of course I am going to ask you to clarify it.

You can choose not to clarify it,  and leave it at that, but of course I would ask you to simply because I want to better understand your perspective on the issue. 

Originally posted by deviliscious

Factually?  Facts are the number of people cancelling their memberships, the number of website hits, the number of bots in the game.. Not say " lets go look at the high score list".

It can be considered a matter of taste as to whether or not you like the update as a whole, but whether or not it is good for the health of the game long term is not really an opinion, it can be backed up with  actual data. When you  have a great number of people cancelling their memberships, leaving the game, and not having new players come and stay,  all you have to do is take a look at what those players are telling you, and the data sheets  to determine whether or not it was a hit or miss.

When you tell me that you disagree, but do not specify what you disagree with, of course I am going to ask you to clarify it.

You can choose not to clarify it,  and leave it at that, but of course I would ask you to simply because I want to better understand your perspective on the issue. 

Clarify what? I said the game is still in the top subscription numbers - never whether or not the game is losing or gaining subs. There's nothing more to clarify about that. Your making something out of nothing, there's no argument here. 

The only hard data we have to go by whether or not EoC is hurting or helping the game anyways is the amount of players logged in. But the few weeks before EoC the game was lucky to break 100k concurrent users. I see it over that every night now. The forum reaction is definetly not hard data - if you think so you don't know what "hard data" means - and we have to wait a month at least to see how it affects memberships. If anything though, it didn't hurt or help the game concurrent player wise in a really noticeable way.

But again, no argument here. Your fighting a worthless battle when I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Your dragging it on for nothing.

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by deviliscious

Factually?  Facts are the number of people cancelling their memberships, the number of website hits, the number of bots in the game.. Not say " lets go look at the high score list".

It can be considered a matter of taste as to whether or not you like the update as a whole, but whether or not it is good for the health of the game long term is not really an opinion, it can be backed up with  actual data. When you  have a great number of people cancelling their memberships, leaving the game, and not having new players come and stay,  all you have to do is take a look at what those players are telling you, and the data sheets  to determine whether or not it was a hit or miss.

When you tell me that you disagree, but do not specify what you disagree with, of course I am going to ask you to clarify it.

You can choose not to clarify it,  and leave it at that, but of course I would ask you to simply because I want to better understand your perspective on the issue. 

Clarify what? I said the game is still in the top subscription numbers - never whether or not the game is losing or gaining subs. There's nothing more to clarify about that. Your making something out of nothing, there's no argument here. 

The only hard data we have to go by whether or not EoC is hurting or helping the game anyways is the amount of players logged in. But the few weeks before EoC the game was lucky to break 100k concurrent users. I see it over that every night now. The forum reaction is definetly not hard data - if you think so you don't know what "hard data" means - and we have to wait a month at least to see how it affects memberships. If anything though, it didn't hurt or help the game concurrent player wise in a really noticeable way.

But again, no argument here. Your fighting a worthless battle when I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Your dragging it on for nothing.

It is confusing when you state you disagree with me more, then you say you are not disagreeing with me.  Make up your damn mind man!@

Anyhow, Have you seen the EoC bot videos flooding You tube? It is like they had some kind of competition between the bot makers to get their bots up and running first. They were back day one in mass.  The dung bots appear to be pretty popular.

Their forums are indicative as to what is going on when you have entire clans posting they are leaving in mass, listing hundreds of members at a time, in combination with website data showing a decline in numbers.  If you have been monitoring their forums since it went into beta, you would also see a rise in players saying they are done with the game over the Eoc, and when you put that together with the website data, and the new EoC bot programs, you can see that it is not the bots that are leaving, it is the players. When you kill one bot they just make a dozen to replace it with. That is just how it has always been.

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Draron

Originally posted by deviliscious

Factually?  Facts are the number of people cancelling their memberships, the number of website hits, the number of bots in the game.. Not say " lets go look at the high score list".

It can be considered a matter of taste as to whether or not you like the update as a whole, but whether or not it is good for the health of the game long term is not really an opinion, it can be backed up with  actual data. When you  have a great number of people cancelling their memberships, leaving the game, and not having new players come and stay,  all you have to do is take a look at what those players are telling you, and the data sheets  to determine whether or not it was a hit or miss.

When you tell me that you disagree, but do not specify what you disagree with, of course I am going to ask you to clarify it.

You can choose not to clarify it,  and leave it at that, but of course I would ask you to simply because I want to better understand your perspective on the issue. 

Clarify what? I said the game is still in the top subscription numbers - never whether or not the game is losing or gaining subs. There's nothing more to clarify about that. Your making something out of nothing, there's no argument here. 

The only hard data we have to go by whether or not EoC is hurting or helping the game anyways is the amount of players logged in. But the few weeks before EoC the game was lucky to break 100k concurrent users. I see it over that every night now. The forum reaction is definetly not hard data - if you think so you don't know what "hard data" means - and we have to wait a month at least to see how it affects memberships. If anything though, it didn't hurt or help the game concurrent player wise in a really noticeable way.

But again, no argument here. Your fighting a worthless battle when I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Your dragging it on for nothing.

It is confusing when you state you disagree with me more, then you say you are not disagreeing with me.  Make up your damn mind man!@

Anyhow, Have you seen the EoC bot videos flooding You tube? It is like they had some kind of competition between the bot makers to get their bots up and running first. They were back day one in mass.  The dung bots appear to be pretty popular.

Their forums are indicative as to what is going on when you have entire clans posting they are leaving in mass, listing hundreds of members at a time, in combination with website data showing a decline in numbers.  If you have been monitoring their forums since it went into beta, you would also see a rise in players saying they are done with the game over the Eoc, and when you put that together with the website data, and the new EoC bot programs, you can see that it is not the bots that are leaving, it is the players. When you kill one bot they just make a dozen to replace it with. That is just how it has always been.

Since this has reduced to nothing more than running in circles I'll bow out and end it here. I've said all I needed to - no need to repeat myself.

Ruenscape had potential back in the day. Jagex built it into a ridiculously popular money making mmorpg at the cost of the game's heart. Of course I question if the game ever had heart consider the dictator like creators. Alot of us players that have been around since the beginning kept giving it a chance, but we should all know better. You especially Devil, shame on you for going back to Runescat. Just let it go...and you'll feel much better.

Really silly to read how 'veteran' players are getting all upset over the update, quitting after X many years.
Change is part of life and everywhere I go on the internet where a major change occurs people say they can't live by it the first few weeks but ultimately come back again.
I think the EoC is a great update that got rid of the dull click and wait combat and that actually made ranged and magic viable again to restore the combat triangle. The hotbar has brought lots of convenience to me, both for combat and non-combat.