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Star Wars: The Old Republic Forum » General Discussion » GDC - James Ohlen - Voiceovers didn't drive the cost up, it was getting the engine to work right that drove costs (through the roof)

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205 posts found
  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 10:45:37 AM#61

As to the idea that ToR was meant to be a SRPG with co-op features and not an MMO, Bioware Austin was talking about its upcoming MMO before they were acquired by EA. EA is not the root of all evil.

AN example of BW Austin talking about it's upcoming MMORPG in 2006: http://www.1up.com/news/bioware-austin-talks-upcoming-mmo

In fact, it's widely believed EA was especially keen on buying BW because it had landed the SW MMO license from LA.

  Darth-Batman

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 715

Bruce, I am your father.

4/07/13 10:47:42 AM#62
These guys are just a bunch of dishonest fools trying to save face, I opt for not believing a word slung from their slippery tongues.
  JKwervo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 140

4/07/13 10:48:59 AM#63
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by ignore_me
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.

Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.

I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR).  Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on.  Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.  

 

I play the game. Open world pvp is a joke, and at this point, extinct and an afterthought.
  Gaborik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 313

4/07/13 10:49:25 AM#64
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by ignore_me
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.

Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.

I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR).  Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on.  Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.  

I said I would stop posting in the other thread, which I haven't. Stalk much?

I hardly think the on again/off again smal scale Gree Event counts as a replacement for Ilum.

HAHA its not stalking when everytime you see SWTOR on a thread you cant read 5 post without it being you or K.  I am just letting you know since you dont play a video game you spend so much time posting/bashing that it hasnt been a year since you could open world pvp in Ilum.  

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 10:52:05 AM#65
I replied to your Ilum point in my earlier comment with an edit Gabby. Read it or not.
  Gaborik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 313

4/07/13 10:52:37 AM#66
Originally posted by JKwervo
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by ignore_me
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.

Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.

I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR).  Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on.  Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.  

 

I play the game. Open world pvp is a joke, and at this point, extinct and an afterthought.

I never said it was good or bad just letting him know his comment about it being a year since Ilum had open world pvp were false, inaccurate and misleading.  If its not a direct quote from '06 -'10 usually his comments are false, inaccuate or misleading, even those quotes he like to copy/paste are pre-launch and also misleading.  

  JKwervo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 140

4/07/13 10:52:49 AM#67
Ilum is still the worst excuse of an open world pvp planet meant for endgame.
  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

4/07/13 10:58:45 AM#68
So wiat...what they rleeased they consider a working right  engine?Hero engine untested?I would of thoguht Warhammer Online proved how crappy that engine was.
  Tyvolus4

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 163

4/07/13 11:02:25 AM#69
I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op.  And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6699

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

4/07/13 11:09:29 AM#70

Well i already knew Voiceovers don't cost much ,i guess unless you hire a big name super star,but why.All these guys do is grab a piece of paper and start reading off the lines.Then later a guy or two start editing it in.They might only need those VO people for 2 minutes maybe an hour at the most.

As for the game engine trying to handle multiplayer,i am only assuming they mean with several players on screen because there is nothing else this game does that i have not seen before.Then if we assume he is talking about many players on screen,this game doesn't do that either.

I played the game quite a bit,not once did i see a ton of players,maybe a dozen at once,usually my view only consisted of maybe a handfull of players.Then you realize this game was not a high poly game,so it was not very demanding.

It sounds more to me like an amateur team that wanted a premade template where they could just punch in some numbers and tie quests  together.

I don't think it is any wonder the game lacked depth of design,this team was not capable of it,it really felt to me just like another console Star Wars game with added internet.The game world acted like it was just there to fill in the boxes,there was literally no movers or interaction,it really was a lazy effort.IMO the TYPE of game it was designed to be was just too much for them to handle,both cost wise from EA and the scope of it from Bioware who was used to making console games.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

4/07/13 11:09:37 AM#71
....so the game and graphs engine was a bigger flop then we even knew it was to be.   WoW good think Lucas arts was shut down.....maybe disney will make a mmo worthy of following SWG

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 11:13:31 AM#72
Originally posted by Tyvolus4
I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op.  And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.

They most certainly did make an MMO. They also always spoke about an MMO.  The game is criticized for feeling like an SRPG with co-op features, but it is an MMORPG.

The Hero Engine was designed specifically with the intention of making theMMORPG "Hero's Journey".

Right now the, biggest game schedeuled to launch with the Hero Engine is the MMO sandbox "The Repopulation".

TESSO even used the Hero engine to block out some of their game world.

Taking a citicism of a game and then start working backwards to alter truth to make that criticism a fact is, in my view, unfruitful.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

 
OP  4/07/13 11:14:43 AM#73
Originally posted by tiefighter25

As to the idea that ToR was meant to be a SRPG with co-op features and not an MMO, Bioware Austin was talking about its upcoming MMO before they were acquired by EA. EA is not the root of all evil.

AN example of BW Austin talking about it's upcoming MMORPG in 2006: http://www.1up.com/news/bioware-austin-talks-upcoming-mmo

In fact, it's widely believed EA was especially keen on buying BW because it had landed the SW MMO license from LA.

Indeed.  A bizarre quote in there too:

James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: We've got a lot designed -- we've got the GDD [game design document] done, we've finished more than three quarters of the detail design documents. We've got a couple prototypes up.

We've licensed [Simultronics'] HeroEngine. It's a very good engine, and we're very impressed with it so far.

 

Their ambitions in 2006 for an MMORPG may well have been to sweeten the pot for a sales pitch of the company to EA.  They had some sort of vision, but no product.

Some darker forces at work before 2007 as well.  BioWare was losing control for some time.  Riccitiello played his cards good, although EA ended up getting the short end of the stick.  EA players (past, present, future) were becoming intertwined in BioWare back to 2005.

 

Elevation Buys Majority In BioWare, Pandemic

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7053

November 3, 2005

 

Officials from private equity firm Elevation Partners have announced that the company has bought majority stakes in developer BioWare Corp. and Pandemic Studios. Both companies will continue to operate separately but Elevation has formed a new holding company called BioWare/Pandemic Studios.

The deal has cost Elevation Partners $300 million, and is one of the first of its kind in the games industry, which has previously generally seen high profile buyouts of publishers, not developers. This is not Elevation’s first attempt to break into the games industry, though, with the company previously having been involved in the
bidding for British Tomb Raider publisher Eidos Interactive.

Founded by ex-Electronic Arts president John Riccitiello in 2004 ,the company - which counts U2 lead singer Bono as one of its managing partners - has raised a total of $1.9 billion to invest in media and entertainment deals. Riccitiello will serve as CEO of the new holding company, which will have its headquarters in Elevation’s Menlo Park, California offices. Former Electronic Arts executive Greg Richardson will head marketing and business development.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Gaborik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 313

4/07/13 11:16:43 AM#74
Originally posted by Tyvolus4
I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op.  And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.

Well I am pretty sure nobody is saying that except the haters.

 

MMO standards:

Here are a few standards most all MMO's have that SWTOR also has.

Guilds

PVP

Flashpoints (instances) 4 players

Ops (raids) 8-16 players

Auction Halls: this is where other players sell stuff they make or find to other players.  

World Bosses: These takes usually 16 players to take down

Datacron hunting (exploration): Some of these take multiple people.  

Crafting.

 

Now its fine if you don't like swtor for whatever reason, you can say its not a very good mmo, but to say its not an mmo and that ALOT of other people also say that is ignorant.  

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1912

4/07/13 11:18:19 AM#75
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Heh, I had serious doubts about the Hero engine from the very start, but kept getting shouted down by supposed "armchair expert programmers" on this very site.  I had read previously that the Hero engine was not well suited for MMOs.  In fact, many of the current engines meet that sad criteria, such as the one that keeps getting regurgitated by Cryptic Studios.

You know why Cryptic's engine works for their games?  Because they made their own engine for the express purpose of making the sort of games that they wanted to make.  If EA had tried to use Cryptic's engine to make SWTOR, it's far from guaranteed that it would have worked out any better than using the Hero Engine.  It could easily have turned out much worse.  That's not a knock on Cryptic; their engine was built for Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and Neverwinter, but not for SWTOR.  If it wouldn't have worked for SWTOR, well then, maybe that's because it was never intended to.

As for Hero Engine, yes, it was built with MMORPGs in mind.  The original game was Hero's Journey, which may or may not have since been cancelled.  The problem is that you can build an engine to do what you want to do in one particular game, but you can't build it to efficiently do everything that any MMORPG could ever want.

How's it feeling there in that armchair?

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

4/07/13 11:23:28 AM#76
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix
Do we really need more details of their incompetence?

 

this

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 11:25:22 AM#77

Yes Karteli, JR orchestrated the Bioware acquisition, which in turn put him back in charge of EA.

That is part of the reason why SWTOR's quarterly subscription numbers were such a big aso for the investors.

Not only was it a major investment by EA, but it was specifically JR's baby. His head was on the line if the investment didn't pan out. 

  rwyan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 430

4/07/13 11:34:06 AM#78

I think it's unfair to throw HeroEngine and Simutronic under the bus for this.  I remember, Simutronics was at some point pushing forward with their own game, Heros Journey.  Shortly after SWTORs release, many players themselves were throwing the "untested" engine under the bus - so it makes sense for EA to adopt a narrative many players already believe.

 

Having followed SImutronics and Heros Journey closely however, I remember at some point, the "goal" shifted.  Clearly, their own game took a backseat in order to productize the engine (as they apparently couldn't get a publisher but were getting lots of attention for their tools).  As a small developer with limited resources... do you fall in line with what the market is wanting (a sexy set of development tools) or do you continue chasing a product that just isn't exciting potential publishers/investors.

 

So EA/Bioware got an early/alpha/beta version of the toolset and had a difficult time optimizing it for their needs.  This isn't Simutronic's fault... its EA/Biowares.  Unreal Engine isn't built with MMOs in mind.  We've seen some very performant MMOs released on that tech and some very glitchy MMOs released on that tech (all of which are heavily modified).

  niceguy3978

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 1992

4/07/13 11:57:57 AM#79
Originally posted by Drakynn
So wiat...what they rleeased they consider a working right  engine?Hero engine untested?I would of thoguht Warhammer Online proved how crappy that engine was.

Why would you think that?  Warhammer online didn't use the Hero engine.

  allegria

Novice Member

Joined: 3/10/07
Posts: 685

4/07/13 3:45:14 PM#80
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by Tyvolus4
I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op.  And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.

Well I am pretty sure nobody is saying that except the haters.

 

MMO standards:

Here are a few standards most all MMO's have that SWTOR also has.

Guilds

PVP

Flashpoints (instances) 4 players

Ops (raids) 8-16 players

Auction Halls: this is where other players sell stuff they make or find to other players.  

World Bosses: These takes usually 16 players to take down

Datacron hunting (exploration): Some of these take multiple people.  

Crafting.

 

Now its fine if you don't like swtor for whatever reason, you can say its not a very good mmo, but to say its not an mmo and that ALOT of other people also say that is ignorant.  

Note: I have returned from beta and enjoying the smuggler class..

Your post above is exactly what Bioware did wrong... you are correct in saying there are certain features which are expected so to speak in an MMO... however, its how you implement those features within the "world" or "universe" that tells the tale... and this is unfortunately where SWTOR just fell on its face.  They took a laundry list of WoW features and said, ok implement these and throw it all together with little creativity and deisgn responsibility... everything was streamlined, linearly created and made  . . .   this sadly spoils many of the features you talk about above...

For example.. exploration ( yes there is some ) is spoiled by the seemingly one connected map zone phenomenon in SWTOR.. The areas make me feel closterphobic and like i am on a train i can't get off from time to time.. its the way they designed it.. Just imagine simply taking wold+spaceport designs and travel options from SWG how much better TOR would be..

Its all too linear and controlled.  Maybe with Skyrim' success EA will realize they need some open world goodness in TOR and we will get it someday... i sure hope so... ohh and real space ;)

 

I was very pleased to see good graphics come back to SWTOR ( as they were in beta ) ... the new textures look fantastic..

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