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Star Wars: The Old Republic Forum » General Discussion » GDC - James Ohlen - Voiceovers didn't drive the cost up, it was getting the engine to work right that drove costs (through the roof)

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205 posts found
  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

4/07/13 1:55:45 AM#41

Bottom line, they messed up the whole shabang.

 

They got a hold of one of the best IP's in the WORLD arguably a top 3 IP and they shenaniganzed it starting with not making their own engine, then continuing with not making a proper mmo. I can only guess what all those network tv commercial spots cost. What's a 7:30pm TV commercial spot cost these days? 

  Phoebes

Novice Member

Joined: 10/29/06
Posts: 70

4/07/13 2:01:15 AM#42
How do people manage to play 120 hrs/week?
  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 2:08:17 AM#43
Originally posted by Phoebes
How do people manage to play 120 hrs/week?

They don't. A  few people at ToR's launch did nothing but play the game while awake, just like they do in WoW. Ohlen cherry picked the data to misrepresent it that there was a ton of ToR content, but misanthropes burned through it. Even if that were true, then he still seriously misjudged his customer base.

His statements in all regard ring hollow. It is pretty common for MMO enthusiats to play about 30 hours a week, not the 7 to 14 he is alluding to for the 3-5 months of initial ToR content.

It is also not unheard of for a lot of MMO players to only care about their main; and not roll alts for a Legacy system that didn't exist at launch, and didn't really do altogether too much once it was started.

He's being disingenuous.

  trash656

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 378

It is easier to Fight for Principles then it is to Live up to them.

4/07/13 2:17:24 AM#44

Lazy (Because they ripp other peoples ideas, and can't be bothered to come up with their own ideas), incompatent (Because they are not organized, or professional and lack the experiance to deal with a major MMORPG development team), and a sorry excuse for an industry we have today (Because all that matters is getting the game out the door as fast as they can eventhough the game is a total peice of dogshit) There is no excuse for it.

This shit has been going on for 13 years, you'd figure they would of looked at the past companys and applied things to their development phaze they shouldn't do or create a carbone copy from Blizzard, not thinking that maybe people are tired of the WoW Formula, and want to play something new related to starwars? Seriously? Are developers this stupid and out of touch with gamers and the community as a whole? It seems to me the chinese and japanese have more brains and common sense then us westerners do. No offence, to any of you developers out there, but 80% of developers in our countrys are just plain strait stupid, even from a buisness perspective your suppost to take economic history into account and observe what the customers want, because what the customer likes/dislikes changes all the time. This is basic common sense of any Buisnessman or even a flippin car salesmen. Stupid

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

4/07/13 3:59:21 AM#45
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 4:10:36 AM#46
Originally posted by ignore_me
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.

Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

4/07/13 4:21:47 AM#47
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Impulse47

I posted a thread long ago about how the engine would fundamentally and irreversibly handicap this game and got crucified for it.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344364

You're blaming hero in that thread, while ignoring the engine used was nothing of what Hero is today, it was an alfa build that was no where near done, many things were missing (as in not developed), this topic is only soldifying that fact. It's Bioware's screw up, not Hero's. They received no parts of Hero code outside of what they licensed, all additions were developed by bioware, from alfa up. The issue you're reporting is on Bioware not hero.

The corporate finger-pointing goes in both directions, in that each company has blamed the other for the fiasco.

As is typical in post-disaster scenarios in all corporations. The classic Scapegoat Scramble could be an olympic event.

  User Deleted
4/07/13 6:26:41 AM#48
Originally posted by trash656

Lazy (Because they ripp other peoples ideas, and can't be bothered to come up with their own ideas), incompatent (Because they are not organized, or professional and lack the experiance to deal with a major MMORPG development team), and a sorry excuse for an industry we have today (Because all that matters is getting the game out the door as fast as they can eventhough the game is a total peice of dogshit) There is no excuse for it.

This shit has been going on for 13 years, you'd figure they would of looked at the past companys and applied things to their development phaze they shouldn't do or create a carbone copy from Blizzard, not thinking that maybe people are tired of the WoW Formula, and want to play something new related to starwars? Seriously? Are developers this stupid and out of touch with gamers and the community as a whole? It seems to me the chinese and japanese have more brains and common sense then us westerners do. No offence, to any of you developers out there, but 80% of developers in our countrys are just plain strait stupid, even from a buisness perspective your suppost to take economic history into account and observe what the customers want, because what the customer likes/dislikes changes all the time. This is basic common sense of any Buisnessman or even a flippin car salesmen. Stupid

Problem is that they hired "experienced" (read washed up old fashioned "it has always been that way") devs and it certanly went hand in had with what EA/LA wanted (copy of WoW with WoW numbers/income which probably in their corporate mind seemed logical). Throw tons of money/time/best IP/know developer studio, make clone of most successful MMO and it just cant fail!

Result was...well SWTOR, in some parts it was even more backwards that LOTRO in 2007, its really outdated game.

Blaming it all on the engine...i mean, they got early alpha engine, got shitload of people working on it that should have been able to rewrite it all 3 times around in 7 years (they got it in 2005), and they still somehow didnt notice its crap in 5 years. Doesnt add up, sorry. It seems whole dev team involved in SWTOR shouldnt be proffesionally involved with any software...ever.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3342

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

4/07/13 6:40:16 AM#49


Originally posted by Normandy7
Bad choice of engine it seems. Bummer they didn't get it to work properly. I would have chosen Unreal 3 instead of the hero engine.

Why UR3?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13576

4/07/13 8:59:37 AM#50
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Heh, I had serious doubts about the Hero engine from the very start, but kept getting shouted down by supposed "armchair expert programmers" on this very site.  I had read previously that the Hero engine was not well suited for MMOs.  In fact, many of the current engines meet that sad criteria, such as the one that keeps getting regurgitated by Cryptic Studios.

You know why Cryptic's engine works for their games?  Because they made their own engine for the express purpose of making the sort of games that they wanted to make.  If EA had tried to use Cryptic's engine to make SWTOR, it's far from guaranteed that it would have worked out any better than using the Hero Engine.  It could easily have turned out much worse.  That's not a knock on Cryptic; their engine was built for Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and Neverwinter, but not for SWTOR.  If it wouldn't have worked for SWTOR, well then, maybe that's because it was never intended to.

As for Hero Engine, yes, it was built with MMORPGs in mind.  The original game was Hero's Journey, which may or may not have since been cancelled.  The problem is that you can build an engine to do what you want to do in one particular game, but you can't build it to efficiently do everything that any MMORPG could ever want.

  paulocafalli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/11/05
Posts: 258

4/07/13 9:26:15 AM#51

It is really amazing how a major company like EA could do such a mistake. Indeed they should have writen their own engine from scratch focusing it for the game they were building.

SWTOR was one if not the most antecipated game for me and probably the biggest disappointment.

paulocafalli Xfire Miniprofile
  severius

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/10/04
Posts: 1528

4/07/13 9:34:38 AM#52

Well James that would mean that the fault lies entirely with the producer of the title and whomever out there was so brilliant as to think that Simutronics was ever going to release Hero's Journey.  No, you got suckered in and rather than being a decent, ethical, moral human being and accept the fact that you are a fool, you decided to pass it on and sell us a shoddy piece of work telling us its KOTOR's 3-9.  

a-hole.

 

 


  stragen001

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 1737

Mr Flibble is VERY cross

4/07/13 9:48:49 AM#53
Originally posted by paulocafalli

It is really amazing how a major company like EA could do such a mistake. Indeed they should have writen their own engine from scratch focusing it for the game they were building.

SWTOR was one if not the most antecipated game for me and probably the biggest disappointment.

And although I have no proof to substantiate it, I am almost certain that the Hero Engine was forced on Bioware by EA. Its just the kind of thing that EA do. 

Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2650

4/07/13 9:57:16 AM#54

It seems like a huge mistake, I mean this is one of the biggest gaming companies, with veteran people, they should of known what they needed.....But I also do not believe much of what they say, they mislead/lied so much during TOR, about so many things that at this point, does it really matter?

 

I guess if they blame the engine, it makes it even worse, because that may also mean their is no 'fixing' things, and it is basically what it is.  You may be able to optimize things a little here and there, but it may never be what you want.

 

 

I also wonder if this is why they went away from having a more open game, that a developer was talking about, well before release?  Maybe the functionality of things prohibited that also?

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 9:58:43 AM#55
Originally posted by stragen001
Originally posted by paulocafalli

It is really amazing how a major company like EA could do such a mistake. Indeed they should have writen their own engine from scratch focusing it for the game they were building.

SWTOR was one if not the most antecipated game for me and probably the biggest disappointment.

And although I have no proof to substantiate it, I am almost certain that the Hero Engine was forced on Bioware by EA. Its just the kind of thing that EA do. 

Actually it was the Gordon Walton of Bioware (formely of SOE's SWG) who first expressed interest in 2005, 2 years before EA purchased Bioware. EA had nothing to do with the decision.

 

*EDIT* Gordon Walton was also the first of Bioware's chief muckity-mucks to leave Austin in Feb. 2011 (prior to launch) to go work at a social-media game company. Draw your own conclusions.

  cylon8

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/07
Posts: 312

4/07/13 10:03:48 AM#56
im confused wasnt this game something like  2-3 year in dev prior to the ea purchase of bioware...if thats the case who actually bought the engine..id assume bioware cause they would get the untested engine cheap...i doubt ea because ea owns severa amazing engines..maybe more proof the dr's were just in it to cash out?

so say we all

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

 
OP  4/07/13 10:23:26 AM#57
Originally posted by cylon8
im confused wasnt this game something like  2-3 year in dev prior to the ea purchase of bioware...if thats the case who actually bought the engine..id assume bioware cause they would get the untested engine cheap...i doubt ea because ea owns severa amazing engines..maybe more proof the dr's were just in it to cash out?

There is a good deal of unaccounted time around then.

 

Hero mentions that BioWare purchased the engine for an upcoming MMO, but then it comes out later that the Hero alpha engine was not massively multiplayer friendly.  Unofficial "rumors" were being posted about the next KOTOR game coming out.

 

Could BioWare have originally intended for a co-op KOTOR?  SWTOR the MMORPG wasn't announced to the press until after BioWare was sold to EA (http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199726, 2008).  The dollar signs around a big name MMO sound like something EA had their eyes on, and thus they were willing to spend that $860 million to acquire BioWare (http://www.gamespot.com/news/ea-buying-bioware-pandemic-for-860m-6180818, 2007).

 

Alpha footage of SWTOR even back to a couple years before release does show a game that appears very early in development (ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAMggd_Z9zU)

 

Making an MMORPG seems more of an afterthought.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Morgaren

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/09
Posts: 394

For me, the gates will open.

4/07/13 10:30:55 AM#58
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by cylon8
im confused wasnt this game something like  2-3 year in dev prior to the ea purchase of bioware...if thats the case who actually bought the engine..id assume bioware cause they would get the untested engine cheap...i doubt ea because ea owns severa amazing engines..maybe more proof the dr's were just in it to cash out?

There is a good deal of unaccounted time around then.

 

Hero mentions that BioWare purchased the engine for an upcoming MMO, but then it comes out later that the Hero alpha engine was not massively multiplayer friendly.  Unofficial "rumors" were being posted about the next KOTOR game coming out.

 

Could BioWare have originally intended for a co-op KOTOR?  SWTOR the MMORPG wasn't announced to the press until after BioWare was sold to EA (http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199726, 2008).  The dollar signs around a big name MMO sound like something EA had their eyes on, and thus they were willing to spend that $860 million to acquire BioWare (http://www.gamespot.com/news/ea-buying-bioware-pandemic-for-860m-6180818, 2007).

 

Alpha footage of SWTOR even back to a couple years before release does show a game that appears very early in development (ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAMggd_Z9zU)

 

Making an MMORPG seems more of an afterthought.

Thats what I think, everything about the game screams single player game with co-cop capability. I think it was an afterthought too. I love Bioware games, I refuse to believe that they would purchase an untested engine and put that on the gamble it could work. A year prior to launch they were saying 10 people tops, sounds like 5v5 pvp over network to me. EA got in and said, "make it work" imo. I think they could have done better keeping swtor as a single player game and using a different engine and making a new game.

  Gaborik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 313

4/07/13 10:33:55 AM#59
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by ignore_me
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.

Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.

I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR).  Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on.  Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.  

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

4/07/13 10:42:39 AM#60
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by ignore_me
The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.

While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.

Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.

I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR).  Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on.  Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.  

I said I would stop posting in the other thread, which I haven't. Stalk much?

I hardly think the on again/off again smal scale Gree Event counts as a replacement for Ilum.

*EDIT* I've also written in other threads that I liked the Gree Event, that it displayed progress and a somewhat new dynamic in SWTOR. Most players instead bemoaned that it forced PVP on PVE players. If you want to post specifically to point out my dumb haterness, at least research your stuff better.

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