Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Originally posted by TarotMage

Pff - blaming the fans for Muzyka & Zeschuk's departure is like blaming the iceberg for the Titanic disaster.

 

Any smart businessman would have first done their research regarding EA's long and ugly history with game companies, followed by a  long pro/con debate, and finally an even longer debate. Maybe it's me but I just get a visual of EA pushing piles of money towards the good doctors, which then cues the classic eyes-turn-into-dollar-signs cartoon cliche' (insert sound of ringng cash register or the first five notes of "We're In The Money" here.)

 

Face it - partnering with EA is pretty much like spending your first night in prison with your three cellmates. The end result is pretty much the same.

 

 

If you would put all your heart into creation of something that you thought was great  and after you finished it everybody would hate and bash the project you spent several years on, would you not like to quit and never touch anything connected to it?

I would. Especially if I would have enough money to not worry what I will put into my mouth tomorrow :)

Big projects have multiple departments.  So yes, If I spent years to develop art,music or story for SWTOR, then I found out that my core company I work for (EA) put a slop job of a graphics engine together to the point where mass multiplayer wasn't even possible (and revenue would be cut because nobody would play this game), then yes .. I probably would resign too.

 

Still hoping for Illum 2.0?  Keep hoping. (thanks EA for the slop job)

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

That's nice, except BioWare is a subsidary of EA.  So when you say BioWare crapped the bed .. you mean EA crapped the bed .. all the people working in BioWare since 2007 were under the payroll of EA.

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

That's nice, except BioWare is a subsidary of EA.  So when you say BioWare crapped the bed .. you mean EA crapped the bed .. all the people working in BioWare since 2007 were under the payroll of EA.

 You can't argue that EA didn't give Bioware plenty of time and tons of money to create what EA thought would be a winning MMO. I'm not arguing that EA paid the bills, because they did. What I'm saying is the Devs and the uppermanagement of Bioware are directly to blame for the failure of SWTOR, EA's portion of the blame is less in this case.

 

Most Developers would shine with the budget and time Bioware had to create SWTOR, unfortunately Bioware completely dropped the ball and are now suffering from the coorporate wrath of EA.

Imagine what Trion would be able to create with 5 years and a $200+ million dollar budget.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

That's nice, except BioWare is a subsidary of EA.  So when you say BioWare crapped the bed .. you mean EA crapped the bed .. all the people working in BioWare since 2007 were under the payroll of EA.

 You can't argue that EA didn't give Bioware plenty of time and tons of money to create what EA thought would be a winning MMO. I'm not arguing that EA paid the bills, because they did. What I'm saying is the Devs and the uppermanagement of Bioware are directly to blame for the failure of SWTOR, EA's portion of the blame is less in this case.

 

Most Developers would shine with the budget and time Bioware had to create SWTOR, unfortunately Bioware completely dropped the ball and are now suffering from the coorporate wrath of EA.

When you sell a company, you (in this case the doctors) might want your company to do well by you, but company morale is way low at this point.  If you were ever in a small company compassionate about your work then you would know what they felt .. there is no reason to continue the passion .. Going to work is more about just showing up and performing.  If your heart isn't into it then it simply isn't in to it.  I see no reason why the original BioWare would keep their same passion for gaming once some conglomorate like EA took over and started telling how things should be really done.

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Link

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/09/28/trent-oster-thinks-fans-negativity-and-ea-drove-muzyka-and-zeschuk-from-bioware/

 

I would say I am not surprised that they would want to quit because of fan negativity. SWTOR "fans" venom could kill every body.

If that were true. the only thing proven is MMO fans are the crappiest fans for anything.  Problem with the cry babys, they dont know technical limitations, they have no patience, and all want something different,

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

That's nice, except BioWare is a subsidary of EA.  So when you say BioWare crapped the bed .. you mean EA crapped the bed .. all the people working in BioWare since 2007 were under the payroll of EA.

 You can't argue that EA didn't give Bioware plenty of time and tons of money to create what EA thought would be a winning MMO. I'm not arguing that EA paid the bills, because they did. What I'm saying is the Devs and the uppermanagement of Bioware are directly to blame for the failure of SWTOR, EA's portion of the blame is less in this case.

 

Most Developers would shine with the budget and time Bioware had to create SWTOR, unfortunately Bioware completely dropped the ball and are now suffering from the coorporate wrath of EA.

When you sell a company, you (in this case the doctors) might want your company to do well by you, but company morale is way low at this point.  If you were ever in a small company compassionate about your work then you would know what they felt .. there is no reason to continue the passion .. Going to work is more about just showing up and performing.  If your heart isn't into it then it simple isn't in to it.  I see no reason why the original BioWare would keep their same passion for gaming once some conglomorate like EA took over and started telling how things should be really done.

 Company morale was not that low right before launch, I seem to remember overbearing cockiness coming out of Bioware. I'm not saying there is no blame to EA, thier history of destroying developers is quite well known. But in this case, I fail to see how EA is entirely to blame considering the budget and time they gave to make this mmo.

 

If the entire failure is because of "morale" then they deserved to fail imo, sometimes you have to man up or shut up and do your job.

They should stop shining themselves (and us) on and own up to making a piece of shit game.

Originally posted by jerlot65

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Link

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/09/28/trent-oster-thinks-fans-negativity-and-ea-drove-muzyka-and-zeschuk-from-bioware/

 

I would say I am not surprised that they would want to quit because of fan negativity. SWTOR "fans" venom could kill every body.

If that were true. the only thing proven is MMO fans are the crappiest fans for anything.  Problem with the cry babys, they dont know technical limitations, they have no patience, and all want something different,

 This is the only thing I can remotely agree with in your post. Consumers in general get testy when they are promised the world and receive a keychain globe. If SWTOR was good, the doctors would be swimming in praise. As far a technical limitations, why isn't every game bad then? Why are some games fun without amazing graphics.

 

SWTOR failure was well beyond "technical limitations".

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Biowares arrogance is to blame.

They saw EA bend over and abuse amongst many great dev teams - origin, bullfrog, mythic, firaxis,maxis, westwood etc.

And thought "yeah but that's them guys, we're better than that, we can take EAs 50 pieces of silver and still keep or integrity"

Now THERE is a statement that's a probably 100% accurate representation of the good Dr's thoughts...

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

When I worked for IBM many, many years ago, they called this "Empowering the employees", which was commonly/colloquially translated as "give them enough rope to hang themselves".

Originally posted by cahenderson

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

When I worked for IBM many, many years ago, they called this "Empowering the employees", which was commonly/colloquially translated as "give them enough rope to hang themselves".

 Well, they certainly hung themselves. When you mess up a $200 million dollar project, someone will have to hang for it.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by jerlot65

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Link

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/09/28/trent-oster-thinks-fans-negativity-and-ea-drove-muzyka-and-zeschuk-from-bioware/

 

I would say I am not surprised that they would want to quit because of fan negativity. SWTOR "fans" venom could kill every body.

If that were true. the only thing proven is MMO fans are the crappiest fans for anything.  Problem with the cry babys, they dont know technical limitations, they have no patience, and all want something different,

 This is the only thing I can remotely agree with in your post. Consumers in general get testy when they are promised the world and receive a keychain globe. If SWTOR was good, the doctors would be swimming in praise. As far a technical limitations, why isn't every game bad then? Why are some games fun without amazing graphics.

 

SWTOR failure was well beyond "technical limitations".

SWTOR is fun for many people. Please do not generalize.

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by jerlot65

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Link

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/09/28/trent-oster-thinks-fans-negativity-and-ea-drove-muzyka-and-zeschuk-from-bioware/

 

I would say I am not surprised that they would want to quit because of fan negativity. SWTOR "fans" venom could kill every body.

If that were true. the only thing proven is MMO fans are the crappiest fans for anything.  Problem with the cry babys, they dont know technical limitations, they have no patience, and all want something different,

 This is the only thing I can remotely agree with in your post. Consumers in general get testy when they are promised the world and receive a keychain globe. If SWTOR was good, the doctors would be swimming in praise. As far a technical limitations, why isn't every game bad then? Why are some games fun without amazing graphics.

 

SWTOR failure was well beyond "technical limitations".

SWTOR is fun for many people. Please do not generalize.

 And SWTOR was a failure to many, including myself. Don't take it personal.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

That's nice, except BioWare is a subsidary of EA.  So when you say BioWare crapped the bed .. you mean EA crapped the bed .. all the people working in BioWare since 2007 were under the payroll of EA.

 You can't argue that EA didn't give Bioware plenty of time and tons of money to create what EA thought would be a winning MMO. I'm not arguing that EA paid the bills, because they did. What I'm saying is the Devs and the uppermanagement of Bioware are directly to blame for the failure of SWTOR, EA's portion of the blame is less in this case.

 

Most Developers would shine with the budget and time Bioware had to create SWTOR, unfortunately Bioware completely dropped the ball and are now suffering from the coorporate wrath of EA.

When you sell a company, you (in this case the doctors) might want your company to do well by you, but company morale is way low at this point.  If you were ever in a small company compassionate about your work then you would know what they felt .. there is no reason to continue the passion .. Going to work is more about just showing up and performing.  If your heart isn't into it then it simple isn't in to it.  I see no reason why the original BioWare would keep their same passion for gaming once some conglomorate like EA took over and started telling how things should be really done.

 Company morale was not that low right before launch, I seem to remember overbearing cockiness coming out of Bioware. I'm not saying there is no blame to EA, thier history of destroying developers is quite well known. But in this case, I fail to see how EA is entirely to blame considering the budget and time they gave to make this mmo.

 

If the entire failure is because of "morale" then they deserved to fail imo, sometimes you have to man up or shut up and do your job.

I remember that cockiness too, and I now see it as a pack of lies, somewhat .. EA did deliver on story for sure.  I sort of feel like I saw a trailer for a movie where the best 2 minutes were put in the trailer and the rest of the movie stunk.  It's kind of hard, and like I said story (also music) were good, but what a letdown overall.

 

Was there someone else to blame?  You can't blame BioWare because they are a subsidery of EA .. EA already tried multiple times to blame the fans ..who else can you blame?

 

It might be sound, morale can be the death of any person, group, or even country.  If your hearts not in it, there is no reason to perform above anyone else.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by jerlot65

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Link

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/09/28/trent-oster-thinks-fans-negativity-and-ea-drove-muzyka-and-zeschuk-from-bioware/

 

I would say I am not surprised that they would want to quit because of fan negativity. SWTOR "fans" venom could kill every body.

If that were true. the only thing proven is MMO fans are the crappiest fans for anything.  Problem with the cry babys, they dont know technical limitations, they have no patience, and all want something different,

 This is the only thing I can remotely agree with in your post. Consumers in general get testy when they are promised the world and receive a keychain globe. If SWTOR was good, the doctors would be swimming in praise. As far a technical limitations, why isn't every game bad then? Why are some games fun without amazing graphics.

 

SWTOR failure was well beyond "technical limitations".

Listen, I'm not saying SWTOR is a great game and the fans are wrong.  What i am saying is in general, MMO fans, at least teh one who cant find a mmo they like, exxagerate how bad games are.  They cite bugs/graphics/ and all other kinds of stuff and the only solutions they give are mostly ones that cannot be done because of technical limitations. 

Is SWTOR a failure?  Yes, because they set such high expectations on the game and did not meet those expectations, in my eyes, they failed.  But would I call the game horrible?  No.  Would I call the game a completed disaster, No.

The graphics are fine, the gameplay is fine.  If you  took  the hype and scope of this game away and compared it to other video games, this game rocks.  But because of the expectations and just based on the fans of this genre, this game appears to be the worst game ever made.

So to say the two docs may have left due to fan negativity is very possible.  But not because of how crappy SWTOR, but because it wasnt popular and that the fans are so bitter.

And for me, I could never be a game developer.  Becuase to spend years of my life dedicated to creating something.  And then haev that something be crapped on by people who are so bitter as to exaggerate the negatives and be so disrepctful to teh devs.  i couldnt handle it.  i would want to jump thru the screnn.

As someone who really doesn't care either way, I think SWG really was a far better game (even post-NGE) for its time than TOR is in its time.  Several hundred million dollars for wow-clone combat is embarrassing for Bioware as a gaming company, I think.  

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

EA, EA, EA, blame EA, derp

 

Did EA create the railshooter? Did EA chose the Hero Engine? Did EA think it's a cool idea to have planets frozen in time with stiff NPCs?

 

Get over it, BW dropped the ball, EA is a freakin' publisher and not the game developer

 As easy as it is to blame EA, this post is exactly right.

 

EA gave Bioware plenty of TIME and MONEY to create a great MMO, Bioware just royally crapped the bed on this one. If anything the Doctors were asked to leave not the other way around.

That's nice, except BioWare is a subsidary of EA.  So when you say BioWare crapped the bed .. you mean EA crapped the bed .. all the people working in BioWare since 2007 were under the payroll of EA.

 You can't argue that EA didn't give Bioware plenty of time and tons of money to create what EA thought would be a winning MMO. I'm not arguing that EA paid the bills, because they did. What I'm saying is the Devs and the uppermanagement of Bioware are directly to blame for the failure of SWTOR, EA's portion of the blame is less in this case.

 

Most Developers would shine with the budget and time Bioware had to create SWTOR, unfortunately Bioware completely dropped the ball and are now suffering from the coorporate wrath of EA.

When you sell a company, you (in this case the doctors) might want your company to do well by you, but company morale is way low at this point.  If you were ever in a small company compassionate about your work then you would know what they felt .. there is no reason to continue the passion .. Going to work is more about just showing up and performing.  If your heart isn't into it then it simple isn't in to it.  I see no reason why the original BioWare would keep their same passion for gaming once some conglomorate like EA took over and started telling how things should be really done.

 Company morale was not that low right before launch, I seem to remember overbearing cockiness coming out of Bioware. I'm not saying there is no blame to EA, thier history of destroying developers is quite well known. But in this case, I fail to see how EA is entirely to blame considering the budget and time they gave to make this mmo.

 

If the entire failure is because of "morale" then they deserved to fail imo, sometimes you have to man up or shut up and do your job.

I remember that cockiness too, and I now see it as a pack of lies, somewhat .. EA did deliver on story for sure.  I sort of feel like I saw a trailer for a movie where the best 2 minutes were put in the trailer and the rest of the movie stunk.  It's kind of hard, and like I said story (also music) were good, but what a letdown overall.

 

Was there someone else to blame?  You can't blame BioWare because they are a subsidery of EA .. EA already tried multiple times to blame the fans ..who else can you blame?

 

It might be sound, morale can be the death of any person, group, or even country.  If your hearts not in it, there is no reason to perform above anyone else.

 The only real difference between us is I'm seperating Bioware from EA while you're not, and honestly you might be right. But the gist of what I'm saying is SWTOR should of been better considering the time they were afforded and the unprecedented budget they had.

Truth is those guys & Bioware were always about shipping high quality games. As soon as they got in bed with EA the quality we had come to expect started to slip. Do you really think the Bioware of old would have conceived & shipped DA2 after what we got in DAO ? The answer is no. The Bioware brand has diminished & I suspect those guys are no longer proud to be a part of it so they left.