Originally posted by kcypher2000

I did notice that it turned most mmos into queue fests where people wait around capitals and have become scared of interacting with others.  Btw am i making you angry?  Cause you seem to be getting rather upset.   I am really finding it hard to believe you were born when EQ was around considering how upset you are getting over a small debate on a game. 

Lol...I'm not upset. This is how I always talk. Anyways you started this whole banter :P

Originally posted by Fratman

Bioware/EA basically spent 200 million dollars to barely hold the spot for 2nd best mmo for a few months until GW2 comes out. Ouch.

The worst part will actually be 2-3 years from now when games like Titan and WOD completely put the nail in the coffin of themepark grinders like SWTOR. 

Has there ever been a game developed with less foresight and respect for its playerbase? Bioware actually thought people were going to spend the next 5 years or more grinding out purples in their WoW clone. It boggles the mind that no one on their development team spoke up and pointed out what a bad idea it would be to release a game like this in 2011.

And here comes the doom sayers.  Havent you guys also been preaching that WoW will die for like 7 or 8 years now?  

Here is the real kicker, people whine about the end game content being like WoW, then they whine that the end game content does not have a dungeon finder so they can play this end game content exactly like WoW and if it lacked any of these features they would whine that the game is missing something WoW has.

You can't win.  Then again thats only the loud minority of whiners on gaming forums who also hate any Call of Duty or Halo game just because they too are popular. 

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by kcypher2000

I did notice that it turned most mmos into queue fests where people wait around capitals and have become scared of interacting with others.  Btw am i making you angry?  Cause you seem to be getting rather upset.   I am really finding it hard to believe you were born when EQ was around considering how upset you are getting over a small debate on a game. 

Lol...I'm not upset. This is how I always talk. Anyways you started this whole banter :P

Well then what game do you like more than SWTOR and why?  I am not saying thing to be condescending but trying to direct this debate in a more constructive direction.

One thing I have always wanted in an mmo is more distractions, mini games etc.  Lots of them that might have nothing to do with the rest of the grind.

That and a pvp zone, battle ground whatever that is just a huge death match.  Bring back the fun of old World pvp raids where people didn't fight for gear but just to kill the other faction. 

Originally posted by kcypher2000

And here comes the doom sayers.  Havent you guys also been preaching that WoW will die for like 7 or 8 years now?  

Here is the real kicker, people whine about the end game content being like WoW, then they whine that the end game content does not have a dungeon finder so they can play this end game content exactly like WoW and if it lacked any of these features they would whine that the game is missing something WoW has.

You can't win.  Then again thats only the loud minority of whiners on gaming forums who also hate any Call of Duty or Halo game just because they too are popular. 

Many of the people that have been asking for better lfg mechanics have not been looking for a copy of WoW's dungeon finder. in fact, many have expressly asked that it not be that.

...and frankly I don't see it as whining. Who am I to judge if they aren't able to enjoy the game like myself or you can? Why would haveing better tools in place be such a bad thing to help them form groups or find groups easier? See this is the problem. Some of you are simply incapable of seeing things from other player's perspectives...at all...

Originally posted by kcypher2000

Well then what game do you like more than SWTOR and why?  I am not saying thing to be condescending but trying to direct this debate in a more constructive direction.

One thing I have always wanted in an mmo is more distractions, mini games etc.  Lots of them that might have nothing to do with the rest of the grind.

That and a pvp zone, battle ground whatever that is just a huge death match.  Bring back the fun of old World pvp raids where people didn't fight for gear but just to kill the other faction. 

First to of all I don't hate SWTOR. I enjoyed my time in the game. I knew from the way it was designed it probably was not going to be long term for me but I enjoyed my time there. If PvP wasn't a mess I probably would have stayed another month or two. That is it.

I mainly return to LOTR the most. Been playing that game off and on regulary since it launched. Spend most of my time there anymore. Spent many years playing DDO, EQ, and WoW too. Those are probably the the four I have played the most - WoW being the least out of the four. The thing that probably does me in the most with SWTOR is the lack of community and immersion. Maybe you disagree but I didn't feel it at all. Also, I was not overly impressed with the story lines of SWTOR. The class story lines aren't bad but I found the planets to be awful. To the extent that much as I tried I could not stomach making an alt.

Main things I enjoy in Rings? The community, the world, and the dungeon gameplay and designs. Although lately the game has been going downhill. No denying that. Ironically, on this very forums I have been called a hater of that game too. Simply because regardless how much I like the game I am well aware of its shortcomings and have no problem discussing them or stating that it needs to be improved upon. Granted been quite some time since I've wandered over there.

I would love the old world pvp raid days. I don't know if players will support it though. Different mentality these days for better or worse I suppose. GW2 appears to be attempting something along these lines. We'll see how it pans out. I'll admit I'm interested but we'll see if it can hold players' interests or if it fizzles out after a short time. I would think not but I've been wrong before.

Originally posted by kcypher2000

What mmo you playing where all the dungeon finders are instant?  I played rift and WoW and both of those it takes up to an hour sometimes for a dps to find a group. 

They're not instant (or well...they kinda are for me because I prefer healers, and occasionally tanks.)

But they're much faster than manual group finding.

And even as DPS it was very rare to take an hour to find a group.  Typically it was 15 or less minutes.

Originally posted by kcypher2000

And here comes the doom sayers.  Havent you guys also been preaching that WoW will die for like 7 or 8 years now?  

Here is the real kicker, people whine about the end game content being like WoW, then they whine that the end game content does not have a dungeon finder so they can play this end game content exactly like WoW and if it lacked any of these features they would whine that the game is missing something WoW has.

You can't win.  Then again thats only the loud minority of whiners on gaming forums who also hate any Call of Duty or Halo game just because they too are popular. 

"Loud minority"

There's that term again.

That's pretty funny considering the "loud minority" is almost half of SWTORs population judging from the recent sub count.

Keep in mind that 1.3 million number includes those who took the extra free 30 days. Paid sub numbers will be arguably quite below 1 million.

I think this level of degradation of active subs will continue, and will spike when GW2 comes out because while people may not unsub to play it, they will take time to play it which will:

add to emptiness of servers   ---> lead to people quitting due to even smaller population.

Anecdotally, I hear people in game (even in general not just in guild) talking about going to D3, TSW, and GW2 all the time. These releases will eat into SWTOR and it's not a slander to say that.

At some point the subs will more or less level off and it will be the fanbois, casuals, biodrones, etc. who will be left. Question is will those same devs be there? I hope not, because they have made monumentally stupid decisions and aren't showing any real signs of being capable of adapting SWTOR.

The game has payed for it's development already and is currently turning a nice profit and so long as they don't dip below their target which was 400k they'll continue to make money on their investment.

Even if the worst case senario plays out for the game they can cut the dev team and bleed out the remaining subs and as long as they shut it down at the right time the game would still be a business success.

I'm sure they would prefer to have a successful game with all of the subscription profits that go with it but while you haters are giggling in your pants over their number losses don't forget that the game is a $ucce$$.

Originally posted by Hazelle

The game has payed for it's development already and is currently turning a nice profit and so long as they don't dip below their target which was 400k they'll continue to make money on their investment.

Even if the worst case senario plays out for the game they can cut the dev team and bleed out the remaining subs and as long as they shut it down at the right time the game would still be a business success.

I'm sure they would prefer to have a successful game with all of the subscription profits that go with it but while you haters are giggling in your pants over their number losses don't forget that the game is a $ucce$$.

 

Reasoning like yours is why we have mediocre games.
Calling TOR a success might be a very short sighted conclusion, if you take in consideration the bad PR for EA and the BioWare brand.

Originally posted by kcypher2000

 

Then team with people, SWTOR encourages teaming more than most mmos ive played, you actually get points for teaming and its funny when people pick different decisions.  My wife is pure evil and im a hero, makes thing interesting and led to some duels. 

Btw that last paragraph just proves to me how horribly biased and hypocritical you are.  You want to see SWTOR a game many people enjoy, even if you dont, buried because their publisher does some things you don't agree with.  Wow talk about a hypocrite. 

Lets be honest, that proves my point that some people want SWTOR to fail no matter what they do with the game, they can make it your dream mmo and you will still hate it just because you are biased.

The developers are arrogant, incompetent and dishonest, have no clue about the game or its players, and have produced with an insane amount of money a mediocre, lazy MMO that they wrecked further with bad decisions and foolish priorities in the 1.2 patch.

When provided with feedback, the corrupt moderators on the swtor.com forum deleted any negative feedback and infractioned/banned those who posted the feedback, while providing a platform for EA viral marketing shills to bait out any naysayers and marginalise them.

In any case, EAware lead developers dismissed the feedback about 1.2 and continued on, convinced they were right despite all the players who came up with in-depth theorycraft and constructive proposals on how to fix everything from class balance to server issues to Ilum world PVP.

Everything about SWTOR from its lead developers to its marketeers is rotten to the bone.

It's great that SWTOR has failed. We can use it as an example of the obnoxious, corrupt and incompetent practices that no other company or MMO should follow.

Sooo, they didnt give numberz as of 31st march lol.

"We sold 2,4m units. At some point in time we had 1,7m subs, and as of end of april (when we gave pretty much everyone 30 free days) we have 1,3m "subs" (read: active accounts, because sub means actual payment, not F2P 30 days)"

It was transparent 30 free days had more uses than to "win hearts everywhere" lol.

Spicing sub numbers obviously one of those uses :)

In fact it may also be experiment for "what happens if we go F2P"

The thing is: they cant give free days forever and eventually they will have to confront investors with PAYING customer numbers.

That being end of Q2/13 as all of 6 months subs+gimmicks(free days) will run out...unless we get new gimmicks.

And for those who say they are even on investment: not even close

And for those that think game can operate on this level with 500k subs: dream on.

I bet Vanguard with 1000? subs is "profitable".

It's quite funny to read fanboi rage :) I remember when SWTOR fanbois had sigs like "VIP member since (insert pre-order date)." Got even warning for pointing out how funny those clowns were :) Those sIgs disappared like spring snow after launch.

Quite enjoyed my 2,5 months in SWTOR though. Nice single player RPG with a chat window. Republic stories were all cheesy garbage though compared to Imperial ones.

Originally posted by Hazelle

The game has payed for it's development already and is currently turning a nice profit and so long as they don't dip below their target which was 400k they'll continue to make money on their investment.

Even if the worst case senario plays out for the game they can cut the dev team and bleed out the remaining subs and as long as they shut it down at the right time the game would still be a business success.

I'm sure they would prefer to have a successful game with all of the subscription profits that go with it but while you haters are giggling in your pants over their number losses don't forget that the game is a $ucce$$.

 

It would not have even remotley come close to paying its development costs let alone its on goings.

People seem to forget interest on investor loans, the IP from Lucas, the hero engine, tax, dev staff, customer service staff, web development staff, community managers, middle management, finance staff servers, bandwidth, real estate, utilities  and on and on the list goes.

Interest,tax and the IP license alone would of eaten the entire launch box sales.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by kcypher2000

 

Then team with people, SWTOR encourages teaming more than most mmos ive played, you actually get points for teaming and its funny when people pick different decisions.  My wife is pure evil and im a hero, makes thing interesting and led to some duels. 

Btw that last paragraph just proves to me how horribly biased and hypocritical you are.  You want to see SWTOR a game many people enjoy, even if you dont, buried because their publisher does some things you don't agree with.  Wow talk about a hypocrite. 

Lets be honest, that proves my point that some people want SWTOR to fail no matter what they do with the game, they can make it your dream mmo and you will still hate it just because you are biased.

 

The developers are arrogant, incompetent and dishonest, have no clue about the game or its players, and have produced with an insane amount of money a mediocre, lazy MMO that they wrecked further with bad decisions and foolish priorities in the 1.2 patch.

When provided with feedback, the corrupt moderators on the swtor.com forum deleted any negative feedback and infractioned/banned those who posted the feedback, while providing a platform for EA viral marketing shills to bait out any naysayers and marginalise them.

In any case, EAware lead developers dismissed the feedback about 1.2 and continued on, convinced they were right despite all the players who came up with in-depth theorycraft and constructive proposals on how to fix everything from class balance to server issues to Ilum world PVP.

Everything about SWTOR from its lead developers to its marketeers is rotten to the bone.

It's great that SWTOR has failed. We can use it as an example of the obnoxious, corrupt and incompetent practices that no other company or MMO should follow.

Nailed it right on the money.  Watching this thing go down in flames is more than enough entertainment for me.  Too bad we'll have to watch TESO do the same :(

Threads on official forums heavy with suggestions on how to keep subs. Even over there in wonderland there is some panic. sheesh. Wouldn't want to be working at BW right now.

Originally posted by ignore_me

Threads on official forums heavy with suggestions on how to keep subs. Even over there in wonderland there is some panic. sheesh. Wouldn't want to be working at BW right now.

yeah it's looking pretty brutal right now.  There are a ton of the posters on that board that were white-knighting this even last night, but when that call dropped today, there's this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=447688

Tough position.

I think we all k new that the subscription numbers have diwndled. You can see this by just logging on and seeing an excess of low population servers. There's no easy fix there...not really. It's going to be difficult to get subscribers back because you are going to need a lot of sweeping changes to the game. I'm subscribed through June but my future after that is pretty hazy at the moment. The end-game content is pretty non-existent and it's becoming harder and harder for someone like me to justify subscribing to the game. You have Tera that was just released and Guild Wars 2 and Diablo 3 are just around the corner along with the new WoW expansion, so I think there are going to be a lot of people who have compelling reasons to play something else.

I'm not sure if we're there yet but I suspect by the end of the year, there has to be a Free to Play announcement beecause I think this is the only real way to get people back into the game in signficant numbers and perhaps even more paying customers than the peak of the game. Merging servers will also have to happen along with continued improvements to the game. But yeah, at this moment, the future isn't dire but it's not real great either.

Have to wait and see before passing judgement IMO.  Still not very old, and it is hard to predict until the initial server merge happens.  A server merge is inevitible for a new game, but if there is a second merge too quickly after the first one, then I'll sit up and take notice.