Originally posted by Vixtrola

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by Vixtrola

i been following this forum for awhile but have been hesitant to post mostly the fact people seem so angry here most the time.. Anyway wanted to comment because this has been a major gripe with me and this game. For me I feel the "amount" of content the game provides is plenty sufficent in a sense there IS a lot to do.. you got all the basic stuff from other MMOs to keep you busy and some extra's like the ship stuff and the nice companions. My main issue is to really keep people around it doesn't matter if you have 100 flashpoints and 100 warzones or 100 planets to explore if all of them are dull and boring then what's it matter? 

The stories are fun but getting from point A to B of my story is just not very fun. The worlds themselves and the graphics are pretty and I enjoy the art direction but for what ever reason they decided to make the worlds themselves feel like a diorama for your character to move through. You hardly see very many actual people, the actual fights between the npc's in all the planets feel so fake and unconvincing they might as well just not be there at all. I can see why people complain because it doesn't feel like they wanted people to really enjoy the worlds they built. I don't know it's very odd to me they would decide to do this and when I see videos of some of the upcomming MMOs it looks like the devs when out of their way to make you feel like the world is alive and things are really going on around you..

 

For me I love star wars and love to feel a part of the star wars universe I just wish the "worlds" and not just the story in SWTOR made me feel this way...

It was the devs choice in design for some dumb reason lol.

I didn't even know that until last year november.

 

They want the mood and feeling to be the same for everyone, so you will have the same experiences.

I.e making the peristent world not so persistent.

Which is why just having story over gameplay/world in MMOs is not smart, neither is the opposite but more so an good middle yet good quality ground in both aspects.

Actually it was smart since they chose the right IP to get money. But retention wise it wasn't.

I get that's why they did away with night and day cycles and such but I still don't understand why not make the actual worlds  fun to explore and go through aside from just being a backdrop to getting from point to point in your story.. I just don't understand why design a monthy subscription based game like this?

Their main focus was on story that's why. I mean I didn't understand until OB that it clearly was their only focus which is why I decided to wait and see what would happen.

Originally posted by RizelStar

 

Their main focus was on story that's why. I mean I didn't understand until OB that it clearly was their only focus which is why I decided to wait and see what would happen.

which is nice and it's a nice change to the standard MMO fair.. but I mean they had to of had lots of previos MMO devs or at least people working for them who made and played MMOs in the past. Story content is the shortest and fastest content people go through in these games. They had to of known people would get through a story in a pretty quick amount of time even if they take their time.. I don't know maybe I still don't understand i know bioware is known for games like mass effect and dragon age in those games the worlds while linear drew you into the action and made you feel apart of the world itself.. i dunno it's sort of a hard feeling to describe in words I guess.

Originally posted by Robsolf
 

If developers used your standards, they'd never release.  All the while that TOR was developing, Blizzard was developing content, too.  "ooops.  Looks like WoW has a new Xpac out.  Gotta postpone launch again til' we have everything they do.   Ooops... LotRO has X system out there... back to work..."

And here's the faulty logic.  They do not have to postpone until they "have everything the others do". I know that's the standard in the business, but it's not the way to go. They can be creative. They can create something different enough and interesting enough and fun enough to make me chose their game and not the competition. At least Rift tried with their dynamic events. GW2 is trying also, let's see how that goes. TOR's aim was to sell the box, which they did and it worked out extremely well. 

Why would I, as a customer, not keep buying my old full-option product and change for a worse copy? I might do it a few times, it's in our nature to try new things but, when i realise it really is a cheap copy....

If people used your standards and only created inferior underdeveloped copies of each other's work, we would totally lack progress.

Originally posted by Vixtrola

Originally posted by RizelStar

 

It was the devs choice in design for some dumb reason lol.

I didn't even know that until last year november.

 

They want the mood and feeling to be the same for everyone, so you will have the same experiences.

I.e making the peristent world not so persistent.

Which is why just having story over gameplay/world in MMOs is not smart, neither is the opposite but more so an good middle yet good quality ground in both aspects.

Actually it was smart since they chose the right IP to get money. But retention wise it wasn't.

I get that's why they did away with night and day cycles and such but I still don't understand why not make the actual worlds  fun to explore and go through aside from just being a backdrop to getting from point to point in your story.. I just don't understand why design a monthly subscription based game like this.

I don't get it either. Many of the things that I really don't like about the game would not have been  issues if I wasn't being forced to pay a sub for a game that i felt had little to warrant it. I would have bought 2 copies of the game and probably  extra content if they had done it as B2P. As it stands though the game isn't deep enough to hold my interest longterm and I can't muster enough hours to finish a single storyline before they start nickle and diming me with a monthly sub. 

Originally posted by Vixtrola

Originally posted by RizelStar

 

Their main focus was on story that's why. I mean I didn't understand until OB that it clearly was their only focus which is why I decided to wait and see what would happen.

which is nice and it's a nice change to the standard MMO fair.. but I mean they had to of had lots of previos MMO devs or at least people working for them who made and played MMOs in the past. Story content is the shortest and fastest content people go through in these games. They had to of known people would get through a story in a pretty quick amount of time even if they take their time.. I don't know maybe I still don't understand i know bioware is known for games like mass effect and dragon age in those games the worlds while linear drew you into the action and made you feel apart of the world itself.. i dunno it's sort of a hard feeling to describe in words I guess.

I bet part of it also deals with what's being said an shown is happening in gameplay as well.

Even in the class stories the battle on coruscant was very static, guards standing there and occasionally running up and attacking.

Least that's what I felt it was.

Like the scene was nice but when it came time to play it felt very akin to side quests and really just quests in other MMOs.

Originally posted by kartool

So, the OP is basically complaining about how all themepark MMO's are designed? There is variation with the class quest, but I really don't understand the complaint about having to repeat quests on alts. Did you expect each character to have a completely different series of quests? Point me to a single MMO that's done that and I'll buy that this is really a valid complaint.

You're not unhappy with TOR, you're unhappy with the current state of themepark MMO's.

did you just decide to skip all the other posts in this thread?  MULTIPLE posts pointing out how WoW AT LAUNCH! has completely different series of quests for at the least 6 characters, 3 per faction.  That's on questing alone.

Originally posted by gestalt11

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

 

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

 

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

 

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

 

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

How the hell is that different form ANY other theme park MMO ??

Does WoW have different quest paths for any alt you make? I can honestly say that the only different quest path you can take in Everquest 2 is the Mythical weapon quest in RoK . Maybe there a couple more quest lines but I cant remember them now. ALL the other quests are the same . It doesnt matter if you make a troll inquisitor of a half elf wizard , you will go through the exact same quest lines . 

I have made 9 alts in EQ2 and after my second the path to 90 is set in stone ...commonlands ->fallen gate -> runneye-> cazic thule-> clefts of rujark -> poa -> rok and dov quests . I mean who in his right mind would go do the tombs of night quests more than twice ? We just grind to 90 on mobs and some questline that are needed like epic repercussions. 

In SWTOR on the other hand you have a huge different questline for any alt you make. My smuglers story is nothing like my inqusitors story which is nothing like my Jedi Knights story . Sure , if you do a zone you will get the exact same quests ....LIKE IN ANY OTHER MMO. But you also get the option to do a whole different  quest storyline that will keep the game fresh.

As an MMO SWTOR is mediocre ...not bad but not that great . There're much better games out there with more content and more polish and better balance . But when it comes to quests and solo play SWTOR simply has no competition . It's in a galaxy far far away from the closest competitor . If you put 10 on SWTOR for quality of quests and character progression you would have to move the second closest game to 4 . Thats how good it is . 

There are so many other things you can critisize SWTOR for . Like the sily character models , lack of a decent customizable UI , not much character diversity ,  no community tools , extremely fast leveling speed etc .

Why would you choose to critisize for something that is done so good , it feels like a single player game instead of solo play. 

I've found that by doing some PvP and spending a little time in space, I'm quickly outlevelling the side quests, meaning I don't have to complete them all... which means, on my next character, there will be more quests to choose from that I have not yet experienced.

I also started out on the Republic side, and i'm lvl 48 now.  I have a newish toon on the Empire side, lvl 12.  Once my empire side is higher level, i'll probably start another on the rupublic side, etc. 

The focus is on personal story, and for that, the replayability is higher than any other MMORPG that i've played.

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by gestalt11

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

 

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

 

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

 

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

 

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

 

How the hell is that different form ANY other theme park MMO ??

Does WoW have different quest paths for any alt you make?

already asked and answered.  

Originally posted by rendus

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by gestalt11

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

 

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

 

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

 

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

 

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

 

How the hell is that different form ANY other theme park MMO ??

Does WoW have different quest paths for any alt you make?

already asked and answered.  

Do you mean that thing about WoW having different starter areas and trying to convince us that an Undead warlock can follow a different path from an undead shaman (or whatever other class they have? ) . That was a serious argument ?

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by rendus

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by gestalt11

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

 

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

 

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

 

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

 

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

 

How the hell is that different form ANY other theme park MMO ??

Does WoW have different quest paths for any alt you make?

already asked and answered.  

Do you mean that thing about WoW having different starter areas and trying to convince us that an Undead warlock can follow a different path from an undead shaman (or whatever other class they have? ) . That was a serious argument ?

It does and has been shown and could be proved both then and now.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by kartool

So, the OP is basically complaining about how all themepark MMO's are designed? There is variation with the class quest, but I really don't understand the complaint about having to repeat quests on alts. Did you expect each character to have a completely different series of quests? Point me to a single MMO that's done that and I'll buy that this is really a valid complaint.

You're not unhappy with TOR, you're unhappy with the current state of themepark MMO's.

did you just decide to skip all the other posts in this thread?  MULTIPLE posts pointing out how WoW AT LAUNCH! has completely different series of quests for at the least 6 characters, 3 per faction.  That's on questing alone.

You completely missed my point which brings your reading skills into question. I'll reiterate just for you elocke, ALL themepark MMO's these days are linear and alts are forced down the same leveling paths. The complaint shouldn't just be about TOR. It should be about the genre in general. Pointing out a flaw in TOR that exists in all other themeparks and acting like it's something new is disingenious. Is that any clearer for you?

I could go on about how so many people seem to forget the xp gaps in vanilla you had to fill by grinding mobs to get to the next quest area, or the fact that you had to do most of the content anyway to get to end game on each character but I won't bother because you know WoW did it all perfect from day one, right?

IMO the most important part of a themepark-wow clone is having multiple paths to lvl up alts.

WOW and LOTRO are probably the 2 most successful WOW themeparks, and both of them had great replayability at launch.

WOW also had great open world PVP...

I mean... when you finally make it to lvl 50, what are you going to do? instanced raids? instanced pvp? instanced dungeons? WOW crafting?

No.... you are going to reroll...

Originally posted by kartool

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by kartool

So, the OP is basically complaining about how all themepark MMO's are designed? There is variation with the class quest, but I really don't understand the complaint about having to repeat quests on alts. Did you expect each character to have a completely different series of quests? Point me to a single MMO that's done that and I'll buy that this is really a valid complaint.

You're not unhappy with TOR, you're unhappy with the current state of themepark MMO's.

did you just decide to skip all the other posts in this thread?  MULTIPLE posts pointing out how WoW AT LAUNCH! has completely different series of quests for at the least 6 characters, 3 per faction.  That's on questing alone.

You completely missed my point which brings your reading skills into question. I'll reiterate just for you elocke, ALL themepark MMO's these days are linear and alts are forced down the same leveling paths. The complaint shouldn't just be about TOR. It should be about the genre in general. Pointing out a flaw in TOR that exists in all other themeparks and acting like it's something new is disingenious. Is that any clearer for you?

I could go on about how so many people seem to forget the xp gaps in vanilla you had to fill by grinding mobs to get to the next quest area, or the fact that you had to do most of the content anyway to get to end game on each character but I won't bother because you know WoW did it all perfect from day one, right?

 

I think you are missing the point, vanilla WOW did have a great levelling experience and many different routes in a huge open world that felt alive, it is why the game was so successful in 2005.  There was gaps in the xp route, but you did not mind grinding or even shock horror helping strangers with their quests because the world was interesting and it was a good alternative to constant questing.  SWTOR copied the later WOW model where levelling became an irrelevance, a short interlude until you hit end game again (even blizzard aknowledge mistakes here and are changing things back with their next expansion).  

RE recent themeparks you refer to, there has been 1 AAA themepark of note - Rift, and it also had the linear quest issues.  Both SWTOR and Rift suffered from a terminal lack of imagination and mmorg development experience and skill.

If you want a benchmark of where a 1/4 of a billion pound game should be then look at the forthcomming GW2 this year, the devs get it there, no linear questing, dozens of new ideas, a reboot and focus on the social and rolepalying aspects, and no ancient tier based end game raiding dull cycle.  Nothing to do with the genre, it is how poor development houses have tried to copy old games because they made lots of money rather than looking forward at how the genre could be moved forward.   

Originally posted by Bladestrom

me should be then look at the forthcomming GW2 this year, the devs get it there, no linear questing, dozens of new ideas, a reboot and focus on the social and rolepalying aspects, and no ancient tier based end game raiding dull cycle. 

 

 

As someone who partook in Gw2 Alpha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naAjBlLBe0Q

Originally posted by Bladestrom

 

 

If you want a benchmark of where a 1/4 of a billion pound game should be then look at the forthcomming GW2 this year, the devs get it there, no linear questing, dozens of new ideas, a reboot and focus on the social and rolepalying aspects, and no ancient tier based end game raiding dull cycle.  Nothing to do with the genre, it is how poor development houses have tried to copy old games because they made lots of money rather than looking forward at how the genre could be moved forward.   

 So they say. We'll see when the game gets here. I'm not interested in the least of playing GW2, but since you guys love to prop this game up on the TOR forums on a continuing basis I'll be looking forward to watching it fall hard on its face. 

 

Originally posted by Bladestrom
What on earth are you gibbering about?

Good question and convenient that you asked, I was going to ask you the same thing. The WOW part of your post I agree with, but bringing up a game hardly anyone has seen nor played in this discusion makes absolutely no sense. GW2 may be great, but then again it might not be (especially for replayability), it is unproven, and until it is proven it's a moot point.

Originally posted by Bladestrom
What on earth are you gibbering about?

Bladestorm you kinda struck a nerve when you brought up GW 2.

I.E that will bring out Snaylor and many others.

I mean of course this won't be an issue with the game it's so obvious it's ridiculous but bringing it up will again bring out some people.

It'd be best to focus on Tor you know?