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33 posts found
  Karteli

Elite Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

1/23/13 2:37:15 PM#21
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by Karteli

Looks pretty much Pay to Win, regardless of how minor the upgrade over anything obtainable in-game.  Slightly better is still Pay to Win, and now EA is pushing their cashshop in everyones face to buy even the slightest bit of content.

 

It's exceptional boost against knockoffs may not work in section X, but having it work everywhere else is an insult to legitimate MMORPG players who believe in actually playing a game to obtain game rewards.

 

This will likely fall on deaf ears, since people are still claiming that buying high-end ship parts isn't Pay to Win, nor is buying the upcoming reputations instead of legitimately earning them in-game.  Not that I play WoW anymore, but it's little stuff like this that keep WoW #1, and SWTOR somewhere lower.  EA drops the ball again?

 

The fun just gets sucked out of a game when someone can just use real money to buy the best instead of working for it out of enjoyment for the game.  Small boosts or not, the end result to me is about the same - declining interest as a non-cashshop player.

There is another in-game rewarded speeder which has better protection against knock-offs and you will still get knocked off in other places not just section x. Those ship parts are also available to obtain in-game which is therefore not P2W. Try again ?

BTW i'm not denying that the fact it is the fastest speeder and only obtainable through spending real money ( well and the GTN if someone sells one ) , but really "my speeder is faster than yours by nano seconds thus I have payed 2 win" , doesn't really cut it .

Cheers,

BadOrb.

Red: And this in-game rewarded speeder which has better protection against knock-offs would be ... ? ??

 

On the other topic, I haven't seen any actual speed stats (just it's exceptional knockoff avoidance) on the pod speeder so I don't know if what you said was true.  But if the cashshop mount is the fastest then that would wreck havoc on PVP servers for those trying to flee an incoming opponent(s).  Made even worse by the soon to be released Ilum revamp, if it actually includes non instanced PVP, that is.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

1/23/13 2:37:19 PM#22
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by ignore_me

This is a precursor to the next Operation. It's scheduled to be called Gungan Dominance. IN the past the gungans were a super advanced race of tyrants. They show up and you have to close the portal to their dimension. The boss is a 50 foot tall gungan with a terrifying floppy ear attack!

Throw in the chance to kill ewoks and I'd never leave the game ;)

The thing is, if you take the word gungan out, my entry fits the formula. Glad youre having fun though :)

A 50 foot tall Ewok is a helluva lot scarier than a 50 foot tall Gungan.  Perhaps the Ewok could be the nightmare version?

Long as the Ewok isn't pink  with wings. Then my character would die from laughter. 

touche'   That thing was an abomination :)

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4107

Trolls will be ignored

1/23/13 2:39:23 PM#23
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by Karteli

Looks pretty much Pay to Win, regardless of how minor the upgrade over anything obtainable in-game.  Slightly better is still Pay to Win, and now EA is pushing their cashshop in everyones face to buy even the slightest bit of content.

 

It's exceptional boost against knockoffs may not work in section X, but having it work everywhere else is an insult to legitimate MMORPG players who believe in actually playing a game to obtain game rewards.

 

This will likely fall on deaf ears, since people are still claiming that buying high-end ship parts isn't Pay to Win, nor is buying the upcoming reputations instead of legitimately earning them in-game.  Not that I play WoW anymore, but it's little stuff like this that keep WoW #1, and SWTOR somewhere lower.  EA drops the ball again?

 

The fun just gets sucked out of a game when someone can just use real money to buy the best instead of working for it out of enjoyment for the game.  Small boosts or not, the end result to me is about the same - declining interest as a non-cashshop player.

If someone can level faster than you how does that make it pay to win?   Are you competing against the other players in PvE (outside of PvP?).

Time should never be seen as an advantage. Its a convenience.

Pay 2 Win for me is when I can buy 'Lightsaber of Awesome Death' and there is no in-game way for me to obtain it.

Obviously when looking at PvP things change, but the concept of trying to balance a conflict so everyone is equal is an oxy moron to me.   What kills PvP is today people can just go on the internet and look up how to make the best build.  It was more fun when you were left to your own devices to learn the hard way.  By losing.

What you described is the actual definition of Pay To WIn. If it doesn't involve PVP, it isn't pay to win. Period.. 

What kills PVP in games is when Devs listen to the whiners who think their special character should dominate every one on one matchup. Some builds just aren't meant to be one on one. Some are suppose to be support classes and should stay that way.

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  BadOrb

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 641

 
OP  1/23/13 2:54:35 PM#24
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by Karteli

Looks pretty much Pay to Win, regardless of how minor the upgrade over anything obtainable in-game.  Slightly better is still Pay to Win, and now EA is pushing their cashshop in everyones face to buy even the slightest bit of content.

 

It's exceptional boost against knockoffs may not work in section X, but having it work everywhere else is an insult to legitimate MMORPG players who believe in actually playing a game to obtain game rewards.

 

This will likely fall on deaf ears, since people are still claiming that buying high-end ship parts isn't Pay to Win, nor is buying the upcoming reputations instead of legitimately earning them in-game.  Not that I play WoW anymore, but it's little stuff like this that keep WoW #1, and SWTOR somewhere lower.  EA drops the ball again?

 

The fun just gets sucked out of a game when someone can just use real money to buy the best instead of working for it out of enjoyment for the game.  Small boosts or not, the end result to me is about the same - declining interest as a non-cashshop player.

There is another in-game rewarded speeder which has better protection against knock-offs and you will still get knocked off in other places not just section x. Those ship parts are also available to obtain in-game which is therefore not P2W. Try again ?

BTW i'm not denying that the fact it is the fastest speeder and only obtainable through spending real money ( well and the GTN if someone sells one ) , but really "my speeder is faster than yours by nano seconds thus I have payed 2 win" , doesn't really cut it .

Cheers,

BadOrb.

And this better speeder would be ... ?

On the other topic, I haven't seen any actual speed stats (just it's exceptional knockoff avoidance) on the pod speeder so I don't know if what you said was true.  But if the cashshop mount is the fastest then that would wreck havoc on PVP servers for those trying to flee an incoming opponent(s).  Made even worse by the soon to be released Ilum revamp, if it actually includes non instanced PVP, that is.

It's the Avalanche Heavy Tank (90% speed) and drops in the Nightmare Exposive Conflict operation , it used to be immune to knock-offs but now it's almost immune to knock-offs. Link to the drops in that Operation are below.

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/14/swtor-nightmare-exposive-conflict-ec-loot-table/

I think on the subject of PVP and the new speeder you might be right it might effect PVP and PVE ( to a certain extent , like getting to the node before some ninja , which sounds good in a way ). Hopefully they tested that out . One other thing they have ramped up the protection against knock-offs on all their cartel speeders ( hope that doesn't cause more arguments , but it seems that now makes a few speeders redundant , not the CE and DE ones it seems , just some NPC ones ).

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

1/23/13 3:04:46 PM#25

Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did,  there is that new thing where if you bought a cartel speeder:

"Players who have purchased vehicles via the Cartel Market will now find that their protection against being knocked off has been scaled up to Speeder Piloting III regardless of current Speeder Piloting level."

But if you didn't buy a cartel speeder, go fish.

Is this simple convenience (not really vanity since it is functional) or P2W creep?

I'm sure different people will have different opinions on the matter.

  BadOrb

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 641

 
OP  1/23/13 3:09:30 PM#26
Originally posted by tiefighter25

Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did,  there is that new thing where if you bought a cartel speeder:

"Players who have purchased vehicles via the Cartel Market will now find that their protection against being knocked off has been scaled up to Speeder Piloting III regardless of current Speeder Piloting level."

But if you didn't buy a cartel speeder, go fish.

Is this simple convenience (not really vanity since it is functional) or P2W creep?

I'm sure different people will have different opinions on the matter.

They are really cheap on the GTN though and many people have been complaining that they can't vendor such items , so now they can sell them. 

I do believe the game is getting easier though and that is a good example of it. i know of a few others like orange moddable items as heroic mission rewards ( which are very nice ) , various other things like speeder licenses at lower level. More that than P2W creep I feel.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4107

Trolls will be ignored

1/23/13 3:45:01 PM#27
Originally posted by tiefighter25

Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did,  there is that new thing where if you bought a cartel speeder:

"Players who have purchased vehicles via the Cartel Market will now find that their protection against being knocked off has been scaled up to Speeder Piloting III regardless of current Speeder Piloting level."

But if you didn't buy a cartel speeder, go fish.

Is this simple convenience (not really vanity since it is functional) or P2W creep?

I'm sure different people will have different opinions on the matter.

That's IT???? A mount that at top speed doesn't go faster than any other? We're fishing all right. Fishing for reasons to make hay about nothing. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

1/23/13 3:54:39 PM#28
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by tiefighter25

Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did,  there is that new thing where if you bought a cartel speeder:

"Players who have purchased vehicles via the Cartel Market will now find that their protection against being knocked off has been scaled up to Speeder Piloting III regardless of current Speeder Piloting level."

But if you didn't buy a cartel speeder, go fish.

Is this simple convenience (not really vanity since it is functional) or P2W creep?

I'm sure different people will have different opinions on the matter.

That's IT???? A mount that at top speed doesn't go faster than any other? We're fishing all right. Fishing for reasons to make hay about nothing. 

You like the game, I get it.

The reason it's called creep is because each step seems trivial, till of course you reach a point where you look back and all the incremental steps add up to quite a long way.

I stated it was a small step, you're reply is essentially, "Yeah, but is that it? It's such a samll step."

So I guess we're both right in a weird diplomatic way.

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4107

Trolls will be ignored

1/24/13 10:05:42 AM#29
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by tiefighter25

Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did,  there is that new thing where if you bought a cartel speeder:

"Players who have purchased vehicles via the Cartel Market will now find that their protection against being knocked off has been scaled up to Speeder Piloting III regardless of current Speeder Piloting level."

But if you didn't buy a cartel speeder, go fish.

Is this simple convenience (not really vanity since it is functional) or P2W creep?

I'm sure different people will have different opinions on the matter.

That's IT???? A mount that at top speed doesn't go faster than any other? We're fishing all right. Fishing for reasons to make hay about nothing. 

You like the game, I get it.

You hate the game, I get it. See how easy that is?

The reason it's called creep is because each step seems trivial, till of course you reach a point where you look back and all the incremental steps add up to quite a long way.

I stated it was a small step, you're reply is essentially, "Yeah, but is that it? It's such a samll step."

No my reply is along the lines of "Anything is s small step by your definition."

So I guess we're both right in a weird diplomatic way.

No, the question is whether it is a vanity or P2W. The answer to that is NO. On whether it  may or may not lead towards P2W, I'm not interested in debating hypotheticals. 

 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

1/24/13 11:41:20 AM#30

You keep ratcheting up the tone of your posts.

I'm stating that the speeders started out as pure vanity items. Rather quickly they have added quite a bit of extra functionality to the store bought speeders as opposed to the in game obtained speeders.

I'm not saying that they fit the bill of a pay-to-win item, but the certainly seem to be trending that way as opposed to a pure vanity item.

Cartel purchased speeders: The new $18 speeder is the fastest in game. It also has the second highest knock off protection in game. (The highest being an endgame raid drop). Players who buy a speeder have increased knock off protection as opposed to those who don't buy a cartel speeeder since their speed pilot level will automatically be increased from level 1 to level 3.

I don't think I'm fishing for Pay-to-Win creep. In this case, what was once pure vanity items are adding additional functionality.

With creep, the system might not even arrive at full blown pay-to-win, it describes the way the cash shop system is trending.

You may make the argument that the items I described aren't (arguably) the best in the game, and the best in hte game can still be found by traditional means. You could also ask how else are they going to sell items. YOu could also point out that other cash shops in FTP games use a similar system. The thing is, SWTOR is charging a monthly sub to the very people that it is also selling these items to which makes it a bit ethically (for lack of a better term) fuzzy.

You could also say that it's just my opinion, but that is a given.

If you want me to switch from observationalist to hater here:

The new trending to $18 pay-to-win speeder is now the only Large speeder (which seem to be quite popular) in the game.  The other one, the Korrealis speeder was removed.

This was obviously done by Bioware to improve sales of their new pod-racer and also proves that they have been planning on FTP cartel sales since March 2012.

 

There, now you can get annoyed and tell me to take off the tin-foil hat or whatever and it will seem more reasonable.

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

1/24/13 1:08:11 PM#31

I´m sorry but putting a "podracer" type speeder in this game, with the whole flawed concept of wheelchair speed lazy programmed mounts even more ridiculous.

I bet this "podracer" (rofl) has the same 110% snail speed like all others.

How do you imagine "racing" this monstrosity, there is no g-force, no traction, no physical correct behavious of "speeders" whatsoever. Lame.

 

Here, SW Podracer, another 10 year old game besides SWG which kicks SWTOR in the balls:

Watch this first

http://youtu.be/t8FVL46rZm0?t=1m36s

 

then watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPinpmWRrts

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  Karteli

Elite Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

1/24/13 1:32:47 PM#32
Originally posted by FromHell

I´m sorry but putting a "podracer" type speeder in this game, with the whole flawed concept of wheelchair speed lazy programmed mounts even more ridiculous.

I bet this "podracer" (rofl) has the same 110% snail speed like all others.

How do you imagine "racing" this monstrosity, there is no g-force, no traction, no physical correct behavious of "speeders" whatsoever. Lame.

 

Here, SW Podracer, another 10 year old game besides SWG which kicks SWTOR in the balls:

Watch this first

http://youtu.be/t8FVL46rZm0?t=1m36s

 

then watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPinpmWRrts

Haha nice comparison!  The 2nd video didn't seem very .. lively.

 

My first thought was this was a Pod Racer for grandma to ride around inside a sci-fi Walmart.

 

Outside of the best in game speed boost stats, 2nd best knockback only to nightmare raiding, etc .. the Pod Racer really should have been used in an actual race minigame, or not at all.  It just doesn't fit the outside world, and is so wimpy to a "real" Pod Racer it's almost funny.

 

As for Pod Racing not existing in the Old Republic time period, EA already screwed up much of the internal lore with legacy that I don't think it would really matter.  If anything it would have only attracted more people to play.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  BadOrb

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 641

 
OP  1/24/13 1:43:29 PM#33
Originally posted by tiefighter25

You keep ratcheting up the tone of your posts.

I'm stating that the speeders started out as pure vanity items. Rather quickly they have added quite a bit of extra functionality to the store bought speeders as opposed to the in game obtained speeders.

I'm not saying that they fit the bill of a pay-to-win item, but the certainly seem to be trending that way as opposed to a pure vanity item.

Cartel purchased speeders: The new $18 speeder is the fastest in game. It also has the second highest knock off protection in game. (The highest being an endgame raid drop). Players who buy a speeder have increased knock off protection as opposed to those who don't buy a cartel speeeder since their speed pilot level will automatically be increased from level 1 to level 3.

I don't think I'm fishing for Pay-to-Win creep. In this case, what was once pure vanity items are adding additional functionality.

With creep, the system might not even arrive at full blown pay-to-win, it describes the way the cash shop system is trending.

You may make the argument that the items I described aren't (arguably) the best in the game, and the best in hte game can still be found by traditional means. You could also ask how else are they going to sell items. YOu could also point out that other cash shops in FTP games use a similar system. The thing is, SWTOR is charging a monthly sub to the very people that it is also selling these items to which makes it a bit ethically (for lack of a better term) fuzzy.

You could also say that it's just my opinion, but that is a given.

If you want me to switch from observationalist to hater here:

The new trending to $18 pay-to-win speeder is now the only Large speeder (which seem to be quite popular) in the game.  The other one, the Korrealis speeder was removed.

This was obviously done by Bioware to improve sales of their new pod-racer and also proves that they have been planning on FTP cartel sales since March 2012.

 

There, now you can get annoyed and tell me to take off the tin-foil hat or whatever and it will seem more reasonable.

The cartel speeders speeder pilot level doesn't change automatically at all , it is the same as all speeder pilot levels , the only thing that has changed is the knck-off effect , which is now equall to the knock-off effect of speeder pilot level 3's knock-off level , phew.

We also ( as subbs ) get a stipend of 500 CC or more to spend on the cartel market per month , so not so fuzzy really.

finally I agree they have been planing the freemium conversion since about March 2012.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

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