Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Originally posted by cronius77

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Originally posted by cronius77
yeah ive never ever in my life actually hated a video game company for anything as its just games but to be perfectly honest i can say i really do hope this game dies out and people lose their jobs especially Jeff Hickman.

I hope you know that intentions like this can hit you back tenfold. It''s called karma. I don't wish you to loose your job, but in the future if I would be you I would be more careful with my wishes, especially if the intent is to hurt or harm other people.

On other note. It is so heartless and horrible thing to say. To wish anybody to loose their job in economy like this is the worst wish possible.

I hope nobody ever say anything like this to you in the future sir.

Good luck to you though.

first off im not some new age hippie that belives in that sort of mess nor will you ever convince me to . Second just because you are in love with the game no matter how much they screw over just about everyone doesnt mean that i do not have a right to post what i feel like needs to be done. If you want the truth i started my career in the game industry and left about 5 years ago and will NEVER EVER go back into it because of guys like jeff hickman and rob denton. Game companies regardless of what your personal love for this game need to be held to a standard the same as any hotel restuarant store etc and they are not. They are constantly forgiven for every single mistake no matter how large . Then on top of that the same exact idiots like Hickman are recycled back into the industry when one of their buddies makes a new company or gets promoted on some new studio and the same exact mentality and mistakes are made over and over again in a endless cycle as you have seen for the last what 8 years now?

I may sound harsh but let me tell you from experience the mmorpg industry is run period just like any shipyard or brewery in the USA , its all family members and idiots who continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Just like matt witter mr hickmans nephew who was laid off from live team at mythic is now one of the lead devs at Anet because of mr hickman and look at how many months of not fixing issues with world vs world ? Stop giving these guys excuses and free passes when they screw things up royally they do not deserve it , in fact i think the local teenager at the drive thru at burger king should get more of a free pass than these guys .

I want to see better games released like the old days of asherons call 2 DAOC EQ heck even wow vanilla , but as long as these same guys are at the helms in games nothing will ever change. Wait til ESO gets here and see the hate that gets when you have another outspoken mythic know it all dev ruining that game.

From my perspective:

- I love the game and enjoy it.

- all subscribers got 1 month of free play in June or July, as appreciation - how many MMOs in history ever did it?

- altough they initially promissed the update as free - things change as game did not perform as EA expected. Other games have changes too... see TSW - B2P.

- the price of this expansion is very cheap for subscribers.

I do not see that they actually rip me off on every corner, you know? I got so far probably around I don't know 1500 h of play if not more, totally worth it.

To be realistic, and I do play SWTOR so I have no axe to grind, the free month given out was as the games population was tanking and they needed to report the active subs to their investors that month, to say it was in appreciation is disingenuous at best.

Originally posted by ObiClownobi

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Originally posted by cronius77

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

Originally posted by cronius77
yeah ive never ever in my life actually hated a video game company for anything as its just games but to be perfectly honest i can say i really do hope this game dies out and people lose their jobs especially Jeff Hickman.

I hope you know that intentions like this can hit you back tenfold. It''s called karma. I don't wish you to loose your job, but in the future if I would be you I would be more careful with my wishes, especially if the intent is to hurt or harm other people.

On other note. It is so heartless and horrible thing to say. To wish anybody to loose their job in economy like this is the worst wish possible.

I hope nobody ever say anything like this to you in the future sir.

Good luck to you though.

first off im not some new age hippie that belives in that sort of mess nor will you ever convince me to . Second just because you are in love with the game no matter how much they screw over just about everyone doesnt mean that i do not have a right to post what i feel like needs to be done. If you want the truth i started my career in the game industry and left about 5 years ago and will NEVER EVER go back into it because of guys like jeff hickman and rob denton. Game companies regardless of what your personal love for this game need to be held to a standard the same as any hotel restuarant store etc and they are not. They are constantly forgiven for every single mistake no matter how large . Then on top of that the same exact idiots like Hickman are recycled back into the industry when one of their buddies makes a new company or gets promoted on some new studio and the same exact mentality and mistakes are made over and over again in a endless cycle as you have seen for the last what 8 years now?

I may sound harsh but let me tell you from experience the mmorpg industry is run period just like any shipyard or brewery in the USA , its all family members and idiots who continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Just like matt witter mr hickmans nephew who was laid off from live team at mythic is now one of the lead devs at Anet because of mr hickman and look at how many months of not fixing issues with world vs world ? Stop giving these guys excuses and free passes when they screw things up royally they do not deserve it , in fact i think the local teenager at the drive thru at burger king should get more of a free pass than these guys .

I want to see better games released like the old days of asherons call 2 DAOC EQ heck even wow vanilla , but as long as these same guys are at the helms in games nothing will ever change. Wait til ESO gets here and see the hate that gets when you have another outspoken mythic know it all dev ruining that game.

From my perspective:

- I love the game and enjoy it.

- all subscribers got 1 month of free play in June or July, as appreciation - how many MMOs in history ever did it?

- altough they initially promissed the update as free - things change as game did not perform as EA expected. Other games have changes too... see TSW - B2P.

- the price of this expansion is very cheap for subscribers.

I do not see that they actually rip me off on every corner, you know? I got so far probably around I don't know 1500 h of play if not more, totally worth it.

To be realistic, and I do play SWTOR so I have no axe to grind, the free month given out was as the games population was tanking and they needed to report the active subs to their investors that month, to say it was in appreciation is disingenuous at best.

No matter what their intentions were... free months is free month - it pays in full for the Makeb expansion /grin

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

From my perspective:

- all subscribers got 1 month of free play in June or July, as appreciation - how many MMOs in history ever did it?

 From my perspective:

- all subscribers got 1 month of free play at a time players were leaving in MASS and they needed a stop gap to stem people leaving in hope the upcoming massive greatest update in the whole of history, a UI upgrade, would hold them longer.

- several games gave free months and rewards for those that stayed...all were hurting massively. Example: Anarchy Online gave players free ships/mounts and a ton of other items for sticking with them. Sure it was only around 8-9,000 players out of the 100k+ that left the game after what was then the worst launch in history...but you get the idea.

Look, its GREAT that you like the game. but you liking the game does not mean that you need to keep acting like nothing is wrong or that the company does everything right. SWTOR failed to keep the majority of its players for a REASON. Most people working on the game got FIRED for a reason...and was replaced by people who then got FIRED for a reason...and yes, it did drop the subscription for a REASON.

The reason? It isnt good enough to make the kind of money it could have.

see i agree with this right here but some people will always blindly never admit when a company is at fault and continue to support them no matter what they do . It sucks i know but thats what free will is all about .

This game went free to play because it was on a one way trip to the fastest shut down in the history of big budget mmorpgs. Anyone who knows the EA louse story will tell you he was 150% right with every single thing said. This game continues to not get it and what its player base wants. People are playing it now because its free to play and im sure some subbed as 15 bucks isnt much money. But instead of saying hey you guys are believing in us again we can make things right and get back more and more subs , they decide to rip off their own playerbase selling free patch content to subs with the new planet and nickle and diming everyone with stupid gambling packs.

Making limited time products is nothing new nor is EA the only coorporation doing it.

The answer seems simple to me - don't buy it if you don't want it.

Personally what rubs me the wrong way is that the whole liveday shenanigans was just made up to promote their shopitems.

I mean there are lots of reasons to put RL seasonal holidays into a game ... but that has got to be the worst. I'll bet veterans day, independence day, valentins day etc are next. Up to now we had:

P2P = Pay to Play

F2P = Free to Play

B2P = Buy to Play

P2W = Pay to Win

Congrats to EA for creating a new one:

P2C = Pay to Celebrate.

I have to admit , anyone who thinks that free month wasn't specifically because they were past the bleeding and on the life support stage for subs at the time really is not being honest or truly gullible.

Like the game or not , (and am considering coming back to try it again here ), the only reason a massive budget tripple AAA mmorpg like SWTOR gave a free month barely 6 months after launch was due to the publically stated failure in sub/retention numbers. EA's financial reports early to mid 2012 admitted as much.

They did not give a free month to be good the players , they gave a free month to try and salvage what subs they had at the time just a little longer till F2P cartel shop time.

I don't quite grasp how some of you can spin everything SWTOR/Bioware does as "good" while accusing others of being the opposite/haters.

It's fairly hypocritical wouldn't you say ?

EA has admitted they have failed in expectations , massively , why try and make everything they do positive spin ? It's obvious they made bad decisions in the past , couldn't current ones be bad also ?

EQ devs made idiotic decisions at times and die hard fans would (including myself) would call them out on it then ,I just don't understand trying to spin everything positive. 

I hate the get it now or it will be gone tactic.  Kind of reminds me of the timeshare guy trying to convince you what a great deal it is, the only problem is you have to do it right now.  The same with car salesman, I can only offer you this deal for a limited time. 

It just shows me how greedy and cheap EA has become, acting like used timeshare sales folks. 

Originally posted by SuperDonk

Making limited time products is nothing new nor is EA the only coorporation doing it.

 

The answer seems simple to me - don't buy it if you don't want it.

I do want the stuff, but I am not wasting Cartel Coins (which are only attainable by spending real money) on them, as rather spend the CC unlocking parts of the game to make it more viable in F2P

 If they had done an event and earned special Life Day tokens or whetever to get them, then I would do the event and get the items. They did a couple of events since its release, the Raghoul one I missed but the 2nd one I did not, and it was a bit of fun - One part had you help a robot finish a race as the competitors were cheating and another part was finding some items. It just seems now they have the Cartel Market in, they are exploiting that instead of coming up with some fun events.

If they had stuck the items on some existing vendors and could be bought by in game credits or commendations, then I would have played the game (if I did not have enough credits or commendations) until I had enough to buy them

If they had only given this stuff to subscribers, and you had to subscribe to get them, then I may have even subscribed to get them

But to put them on the Cartel Market and subbers even have to buy them with real money through Cartel Coins, is just scummy, especially every single Life Day item.

In SWG they gave some items free by clicking on the Life Day tree, and then  the rest were acquired after doing an event,  and even had a leaderboard to see how many trees you all could decorate or how many presents you could stomp on within 30 mins. Also there was another short mission to get a stap, and some other goodies, which just incvolved travvelling around the planets and questioning NPCs, which probably took 30 mins to do, as I created something similar using Chronicles system within that time. Almost every other MMO does an event too.

Games are meant to be played, not payed (and payed some more)!

Originally posted by Sevenstar61

 

No matter what their intentions were... free months is free month - it pays in full for the Makeb expansion /grin

I mean seriously? We are that low that people need to find such excuses for explaining the price of a DLC on top of the sub?

The F2P model is just not right, they try to make money on stuff that really should be sort of basic gameplay.

I mean, limited XP? Limited commendations?

The road they have taken with creating disadvantages and try to make you pay to get rid of them.

What i would prefer, and pay for, is to get something tangible for my money.

DLC, sure, and advantages no doubt.

The current model will never get any money from me, i see a challenge in not paying.

Sure, i run around alot and level slower, but so what, LOL!

Originally posted by IG-88

DLC, sure, and advantages no doubt.

The current model will never get any money from me, i see a challenge in not paying.

Sure, i run around alot and level slower, but so what, LOL!

This. I have no problem with F2P/Freemium games, but their monetization scheme has to make sense.

Right now, there is almost nothing in the CM that is enticing to a thinking customer who actually considers price vs. value before throwing money at the screen. Not only does this not help keep F2P players, but it also drives subbed players who feel slighted at the fact that they have received almost none of the free content they where promised (Just take a look at their forums).

Everything in the CM, from gambling packs to $18 mounts that are not account-wide to charging subbed players $10 for a content update, just screams "SHORT-TERM MONEY GRAB". EA clearly doesn't care about the long term health of the game, they just wanna try to recover their loses as soon as possible and that's it.

You know, for all that people talk about the 'horrible PR' on official and external forums, I don't think it makes that much difference. I'm watching a Facebook conversation right now where a bunch of people are picking a new MMORPG. No one cares about any of the PR, good or bad. People are talking about their own experience, and generally speaking, it's good.

I think the only people affected by the horrible PR are the original subscribers. All the new players could really not care less about whatever it was EA did. They're just going to try the games out.

Originally posted by lizardbones

I think the only people affected by the horrible PR are the original subscribers. All the new players could really not care less about whatever it was EA did. They're just going to try the games out.

That is very much true. However, those types of players (i.e. the kind that doesn't care about a company's behaviour/direction) do not stick around for a very long time, which is exactly the opposite of what an MMO looks for in their playerbase.

The key word in your sentence is "new": Those players will not be new forever, and at some point they will either invest themselves in the game or leave. Guess which of those two outcomes bad PR promotes?

If people are new to SWTOR they will soon wise up to the ways of the game, like millions did at launch. The game had nothing but good PR then, but people soon saw through all the crap.

It does not matter too much with the Life Day items being lmited as you would only want them around christmas, although I bet they will start to do this more with other stuff. Even LOTRO does limited time mounts, so chances are EA will come along and do more non-seasonal items too, but at least LOTRO adds in seasonal events too. EA think that just chucking stuff on the market is what makes F2P a success. They seem to have given up adding gameplay, and just using the cartel market for more money from subscribers. Having some items on the CM would have been ineviitable, but not doing an event or giving out at least one Life Day item for free to subscribers, is just rotten.

Other MMOs use F2P to make the game viable but you pay for what you want instead of sub to all of it, but if you want all of it you sub. In SWTOR no matter how you play in F2P, it always pushes you towards subbing more so.

Instead of the locking out UI bars, reduced XP and quest rewards etc, they should have made a planet or two after Corusant / Dromund Kaas purchaseable, and up to level 15 the same as the trial completely free and less restricted. Purchasing more content with loads of gameplay feels more value for money than having the game restricted.

Ohh Nooo Reduced EXP... the horror

Sorry But I'm not a content locust and personally think to many games now-a-days have the easy button exp grab set to high. I've stopped playing games because it felt like the publisher was pushing me out of a zone without seeing everything there was to offer before it reached "level cap" for the area.

Ohh NOOOO I need to buy another hotbar to be superkoolelite. Yeah well, if you feel the need to be superkoolelite then you can easily plunk down some cash, it takes very little, heck Subs do it all the time

OHH NOOO I can't grind instances/PVP. Well to be honest if that is a complaint then you obviously knew nothing about the game so you can just suck it. They flat out said this is a story driven game. They even went so far was to suggest that the PVP was an afterthought. Instances are not what make a game. End content is not what makes a game, the WHOLE GAME is what makes a game. Just becuase a single aspect sucks does not invalidate the game. (it only validates YOUR OPINION of the game)

I did take a break from the game. FOR 1 REASON, It was simply WoW in space and I hated WoW.

Yes of course there are limites to the F2p and premium accounts. they need to put some sort of restrictions in order for people to buy things. Why does AION survive (personally that game is also a loaded pile of donkey scraps) Becuase the audience that it targets has a giant "need" to have their anime looking stickfigure females in huge frilly goddess gear.

Ok there are a few things thta I have beef with in the f2p model

Not being able to increase the size of my money pouch. In the long run this sucks

Not being able to trade or send mail (However While I have a beef I do feel it is justified as they are trying to stop gold farmers/laundry mules from saturating the f2p level, yeah yeah I know all they have to do is get prefered status but at least they are forcing them to do what every other GF has to do is at least invest in the game)

SWTOR was not going to be SWG2, They flat out said this. Quit with the "it didn't live to my expectations" becuase they flat out said what they were going to do if it didn't meet you expectations then you obviously were looking at a different game.

I'm not a SW fanatic, a SWTOR fanatic, Heck the only reason I'm playing right now is because it is f2p. I went to the show knowing what I was going to get and expecting exactly what I got, so how could it be bad?

Originally posted by mrrshann618

Ohh Nooo Reduced EXP... the horror

 

Sorry But I'm not a content locust and personally think to many games now-a-days have the easy button exp grab set to high. I've stopped playing games because it felt like the publisher was pushing me out of a zone without seeing everything there was to offer before it reached "level cap" for the area.

 

Ohh NOOOO I need to buy another hotbar to be superkoolelite. Yeah well, if you feel the need to be superkoolelite then you can easily plunk down some cash, it takes very little, heck Subs do it all the time

OHH NOOO I can't grind instances/PVP. Well to be honest if that is a complaint then you obviously knew nothing about the game so you can just suck it. They flat out said this is a story driven game. They even went so far was to suggest that the PVP was an afterthought. Instances are not what make a game. End content is not what makes a game, the WHOLE GAME is what makes a game. Just becuase a single aspect sucks does not invalidate the game. (it only validates YOUR OPINION of the game)

 

I did take a break from the game. FOR 1 REASON, It was simply WoW in space and I hated WoW.

Yes of course there are limites to the F2p and premium accounts. they need to put some sort of restrictions in order for people to buy things. Why does AION survive (personally that game is also a loaded pile of donkey scraps) Becuase the audience that it targets has a giant "need" to have their anime looking stickfigure females in huge frilly goddess gear.

 

Ok there are a few things thta I have beef with in the f2p model

Not being able to increase the size of my money pouch. In the long run this sucks

Not being able to trade or send mail (However While I have a beef I do feel it is justified as they are trying to stop gold farmers/laundry mules from saturating the f2p level, yeah yeah I know all they have to do is get prefered status but at least they are forcing them to do what every other GF has to do is at least invest in the game)

 

SWTOR was not going to be SWG2, They flat out said this. Quit with the "it didn't live to my expectations" becuase they flat out said what they were going to do if it didn't meet you expectations then you obviously were looking at a different game.

I'm not a SW fanatic, a SWTOR fanatic, Heck the only reason I'm playing right now is because it is f2p. I went to the show knowing what I was going to get and expecting exactly what I got, so how could it be bad?

They said there would be large scale , I believe 100 on 100 , massive battles on Illum. It was advertised directly by them.

That's what I wanted to play , and then they revealed they were clueless on their own game's capabilities , and clueless on how to have a large scale PVP planet.

They advertised Illum gameplay then abandoned it (going on a year now).

How is that not failed expectations for me ?

Originally posted by MMOdad72

 

They said there would be large scale , I believe 100 on 100 , massive battles on Illum. It was advertised directly by them.

That's what I wanted to play , and then they revealed they were clueless on their own game's capabilities , and clueless on how to have a large scale PVP planet.

They advertised Illum gameplay then abandoned it (going on a year now).

How is that not failed expectations for me ?

So What you are saying is that the ONLY reason you wanted to play SWTOR was for Illum.

I personally never had that much in the way of problems on Illum, then again I'm not a PVPer. However acting on the few times that I did play all I saw were people running around like lemmings, taking control point A then the WHOLE MOB moving towards B. Is that EA's fault for crappy PvP?

They gave people Illum to kill each other. Yeah not much else to do there (if you ignore the PVE aspects) but isn't that what PvP is all about? Ganking, crushing, destroying the enemy and hear the lamenting of you enemies?

Or is it all about grinding for Uber gear?

If your answer is Uber gear then refer to my comments about grinding and instancing. End game isn't the game

There are/were/have been many PvP oriented "arena" combat games out there where all you do is kill the other person. yeah there may not be Star Wars themed ones, but that is not the problem of EA, That is the problem of the IP owner.

You can blame EA/Bioware all you want for a "empty Illum" but if you want 100 vs 100 then you need 200 first. That requires people to be there, even a crappy PvP system (which as far as I can tell the only difference is the controller behind the toon) can be fun with that many people there. You just have to have had the people there in the first place. I blame peoples feeling of entitlement or needed to be rewarded for EVERY STINKING LITTLE THING as more a downfall of things rather than the WHOLE blame being on the developers shoulders.

Just to point out. early MMO's had absolutely CRAP systems in place but people LOVED them. That points to me that the blame is NOT wholely on the developers side.

Originally posted by mrrshann618

Originally posted by MMOdad72

 

They said there would be large scale , I believe 100 on 100 , massive battles on Illum. It was advertised directly by them.

That's what I wanted to play , and then they revealed they were clueless on their own game's capabilities , and clueless on how to have a large scale PVP planet.

They advertised Illum gameplay then abandoned it (going on a year now).

How is that not failed expectations for me ?

So What you are saying is that the ONLY reason you wanted to play SWTOR was for Illum.

 

I personally never had that much in the way of problems on Illum, then again I'm not a PVPer. However acting on the few times that I did play all I saw were people running around like lemmings, taking control point A then the WHOLE MOB moving towards B. Is that EA's fault for crappy PvP?

 

They gave people Illum to kill each other. Yeah not much else to do there (if you ignore the PVE aspects) but isn't that what PvP is all about? Ganking, crushing, destroying the enemy and hear the lamenting of you enemies?

 

Or is it all about grinding for Uber gear?

 

If your answer is Uber gear then refer to my comments about grinding and instancing. End game isn't the game

There are/were/have been many PvP oriented "arena" combat games out there where all you do is kill the other person. yeah there may not be Star Wars themed ones, but that is not the problem of EA, That is the problem of the IP owner.

 

You can blame EA/Bioware all you want for a "empty Illum" but if you want 100 vs 100 then you need 200 first. That requires people to be there, even a crappy PvP system (which as far as I can tell the only difference is the controller behind the toon) can be fun with that many people there. You just have to have had the people there in the first place. I blame peoples feeling of entitlement or needed to be rewarded for EVERY STINKING LITTLE THING as more a downfall of things rather than the WHOLE blame being on the developers shoulders.

 

Just to point out. early MMO's had absolutely CRAP systems in place but people LOVED them. That points to me that the blame is NOT wholely on the developers side.

EA/Bioware themselves admitted they screwed up Illum and didnt know how to fix it. 

You don't have to white knight for them on everything ,(but obviously are going to ) even they admit they f'd up on this part.

You admit you aren't PVP'r yet you try and say its the players fault.

EA/Bioware had terrible design for Illum along with their horrible coding not being able to handle it correctly even in its crappy design.

Sorry to say , but they advertised it , pushed it  ,and it didnt work.

That's  a failed expectation.

And yet some want to spin it even on this issue that the developers themselves admitted they were cluess on what to do about it.

I'm being a "white knight" more as a stance against people's feeling of entitlement,

against people's "dismay" that it wasn't SWG2,

agsint people's "I hate this aspect of the game so you should feel bad becuase you don't hate it too" feeling that a lot of the SWTOR bashing threads project.

I was not there for the attempted fixing with the rackghoul patches. I had alread jumped ship for the reasons I've already stated. I'm definately NOT a WHITE knight to the cause. I know that they flat out admitted that Illum was a Failure, however what is their incentive for fixing it if EVERYONE simply boycots it and jumps ship?

Why fix a sinking boat if everyone has already left?

However you can play a free game, no investment truely needed with as much fun as any console game, for free, for up to 2 characters without buying anything, for free, with ability to unlock further aspects such as race, for free.

Not sure why so many people bitch about a completely free game except for a feeling of entitlement.

Problem is it is a cyclic argument

Players: I'm not comming back until you fix this BS!!!!!

Bioware (not EA): We cannot divert resources needed to fix "at this time" unless we can show EA (who has a history or yanking projects) that we can actually actract people, Hey Lets see if the "Fad" of f2p will work long enough so we can fix this!

EA: GIMME MONEY!!!

Players: Your f2p Model is Crap, I can't be leet for free!!!!

Bioware: If your Leet why pay for anything? At least we do not force you to buy endurance/action point potions like alot of other f2p games. You get the whole meat and potatos of the game for free.

EA: GIMMEE MOOONNEEEY!!!!

Player: Yeah but your f2p is epic-fail I'm not comming back till it's fixed to my liking

Bioware: we cannot divert resources till we can prove we can make money for fear that EA will pull plug

EA: MOOONEYYY!!!!!!