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48 posts found
  Meridion

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 1502

None of you understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me!

 
OP  12/15/12 1:11:05 PM#21
Originally posted by SBE1

The MMO game was developed by a team that was good at single-player story games.  What a shock that the engine for large-scale action sucks, and the large-scale PvP was terrible.  I bet 90% of the beta testing was done on the single-player story part of the game. Heck, with all the voice-overs and time spent on making the story and side-quests, what a shock, right?

Indeed, all the reviews were how the "story" was going to be a gamechanger for MMO development.  Well, it's interesting and refreshing, but it doesn't make it a good MMO.  In fact, it's such a single-player experience that some would argue it makes it a worse MMO as a result.

Even the multi-player story sections like dungeons, people demand that you spacebar through the dialoge....what a waste of resources and misreading of what players wanted.  Players want content as well as a living zone that they can affect. They also want meaningful PvP that has an affect on the world they play in.  

Too bad so much money was spent on part of the game that actually makes it a single-player game instead of an MMO.  The game will never have meaninful large-scale PvP because they would have to use a new graphics engine, and that's not going to happen.  Instead if you like replaying the same warzones and dungeons over and over, then this game is okay.  It's not a bad game, but it isn't very dynamic, and that's what keeps an MMO alive. 

You know, I actually agree. And while I can see other games that misplaced ressources and produced crappy results (Like sub-par animations in LotRO or meaningless PvE in WAR) I never ran across a game that so obviously failed at the most basic concept of MMORPG: World.

M

  cronius77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1313

12/15/12 1:20:38 PM#22

a lot more people have performance issues than just a few lol . There is like a 30 page thread on the offical forums from people that constantly crash to desktop and suffer from memory leaks. SWTOR is a trainwreck when it comes to performance and this has been spanning multiple patches. They do not even address most of the issues with the game honestly and just keep pushing out patches that continue to break stuff further or just release cartel market garbage. I used to be a fan of this game but honestly i cancelled my sub and moved on because they are the most trash company ive ever did business with in the gaming industry and i honestly hope they fail as they deserve it with the decisions they continue to make.

Also Guild Wars 2 is not a good comparison because the playstyle of guild wars 2 is not that fun for everyone including myself. two different concepts completely and IMO neither of them are any value to the genre at all.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

12/15/12 2:17:36 PM#23

It's EA that attempted to convince the press, fans, and anyone using their official forums that the problem wasn't widespread.  Some notable interviews where from people who DID have problems:

 

BioWare claims SWTOR performance issues are being blown out of proportion

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/11/bioware-claims-swtor-performance-issues-are-being-blown-out-of-proportion/

Star Wars: The Old Republic is no Witcher 2, Skyrim, or government-created missile targeting program. It doesn’t exactly look like it should be the Death Star to your rig’s Alderaan. And yet, many players have reported framerates that can barely keep their heads above 20FPS on machines that eat the aforementioned titles/missiles for breakfast. So, what’s the deal? Well, BioWare’s not entirely convinced there is one. With a wave of the hand, game director James Ohlen told Eurogamer that these aren’t the performance issues you’re looking for.

“The thing is, for the most part, 95 per cent – oh I can’t give you the exact percentage – most of our players aren’t really having performance concerns,” he said. “However, we know that it’s important that there is a smaller group of people usually with lower end machines that are having problems in some areas. And one of the most important things for us to grow our service is to continue to bring in more players, including those players who only have low-end machines.”

 

Guild Summit: Interview With Daniel Erickson

From http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19981-guild-summit-interview-with-daniel-erickson/daniel-erickson-interview-part-2

March 14, 2012

Where are you on game engine optimizations? Because I currently get about 5 to 10 frames per second on Alderaan and about 20 in Huttball and I have a PC that can run Crysis 2 at ultra. With no real explanation on what is going on.

Wow. You should do some investigation, because that is not typical. Where we are on game optimization in general is we’ve got some crazy, crazy options that you can turn on in 1.2. I played running around on several of the planets at fully acceptable wonderful running framerates on min spec machines now, which was the thing I wanted to see.

What we got right now is a big texture package pass, and we did it in both directions. So we can say, “Hey, you can take the textures way down, run around, the game works.” We’ve also said, “Hey, you know those textures people keep saying they like so much in the promotional videos? You can turn those on too now.” Because now we figured out how to do it in a small area so it doesn’t try to do it everywhere.
The next big thing we have to hit is effects, and that’s just a standard of what games do is say, “Hey, you know all those crazy crazy effects that everybody else is drawing? Yeah, maybe I don’t want to see all of your lightning storms all at once.” We have a programming team now that literally that’s their only mandate is game run better. Long term target is you should be able to play on your laptop, you should be able to play on your second and third machine in the house. And we are fiercely dedicated to that goal.

 

Whether they are common or not, I do know I have a lot of frame problems, notably when too many players are on-screen at once (game runs fast when I'm all alone).  EA might not acknowledge problems, but they did cap WZ's to 16 (8 vs 8) and Ops to 16, which seems to be the "sweet" player cap before performance starts to deteriorate below what the eye can notice (~24 fps).

 

EA did spend a whole lot of time trying to convince everyone that the problem was uncommon, and really though, if a company gets cornered like that to keep requiring a defense, then they already lost the battle, as others realize that there is merit to the complaints.

 

I also personally don't know any RL friends who didn't have performance issues, as more anecdotal examples, for what it's worth.  It might sound silly, but at the GTN or an overpopulated area, zooming in and looking straight down helps FPS.  This made Illum playable .. look down, hit tab, hit range attack, hit tab, hit range attack, repeat... not very epic though lol.

 

There was some analysis of this before, and perhaps something of interest is how SWTOR uses more CPU power to handle graphics than it does GPU power.  Some people have problems, some don't .. but EA should have tackled this early on to make the game fluid and fun for all, instead of denying that a major problem existed for a significant chunk of their customers (and the interviewers).  As others said, optimization complaint threads have been continuing to crop up onto the SWTOR official forums, even to this day.

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  User Deleted
12/15/12 8:05:57 PM#24
Originally posted by Sevenstar61
Originally posted by snapfusion

The biggest shocker for me when I went back and tried it for "free" was still performance in highly populated areas.  Now that the spacestations are no longer ghost towns the performance with a couple hundred people "present" somewhere in the area is even more abysmal than before.  It takes allot to slow my rig down, but this game can do it, and look really bad at the same time. 

My video card alone was close to 500 bucks 680GTX, SSD drive, 16GB memory , win 7 64bit, 3.4 quad core i7.  This is not your average computer.  This is the worst perfoming MMO Ive ever played when you get a group of people together in one place, they still havent cracked that nut, and at this point they never will

Open world performance when no one is around me is over 100FPS at times, but this is NOT a single player game.  There is still some broken network code in there, and character optimization that still need to be done.

Good luck Bioware, but then again your new "market" could probably care less about performance, some people are just happy getting 15 to 30FPS.  Anyting less than 60 and I walk away.

OK I know that some people have problems with SWTOR performance but I assure you it is not a common experience. I have I7 3.3 with GTX 580 and regular hard drive and in really populated areas like fleet and DK which where I was two days ago had 2 instances and about 370 players there and my FPS was 60. No lag, smooth performace.

In fact never had any problems with SWTOR performance and I have all features maxed and playing in resolution: 2560 x 1600.

So these are isolated incidents but sure very laud.

It IS a common issue. Its SO common issue that they SHUT DOWN ILUM BECAUSE OF IT.

Aand funny thing, people like you never ever present proof of their "hundreds of FPSs on full ffleet".

Sit on your speeder and drive around full fleet, record it so all can see.

You sure DO sound like PR machine.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

12/15/12 9:24:10 PM#25
Originally posted by tort0429
Originally posted by grimal

This again?

Really, in the end the entertainment one gets out of these is entirely subjective.  While many find this game to be the epic bore of our lifetime, there are those who enjoy it to no end.

I'm beginning to feel that talking about a game's enjoyment is as constructive as analyzing "humor" and how one level of comedy is superior to the other.  Absolutely subjective and entirely pointless.

 

I understand your point but I have to disagree.  Isn't discussing one's opinion what this site's all about.   Although I agree wit what  you are saying, it is subjective but I disagree with it being pointless.  I find it intersting to see other's opinion and more importantly when their opinions come very close to mine makes me feel I'm not imagining what I see or feel.

 

I had mixed feelings about SWTOR when I played it.  I was overjoyed about weilding a light saber again, but then, when the newness of the game wore off, I saw it like the OP did for what it really is.   Lifeless planets were the bigest dissapointment for me.  Any MMO I've played, including some F2P games had more life on their planets then SWTOR.   You have to be kidding me that they didn't think players would notice that.   The game is fun, but sadly, could have been so much better.

 

I just meant that so many times conversations turn into this:

User A : "Game 1 is so friggin sweet!  Game feels so alive and the quests are just so awesome"

User B : "Dude, Game 1 sucks.   Game 2 is where its at.  Game 1 is a total Game Z clone.  Why would you ever play it?  Just play Game Z!"

User A : "No way man...Game Z sucks ass! Game 2 blows!  That game is soooooo boring."

User B : "Game 2 sucks?  Dude do you even play MMOs?  I've been playing since UO and Game 2 is closest thing to it.  If you can't see that and think Game 2 sucks then you're just playing it wrong."

User A : "What?!?! Do you work for Game 2's company?  I've been playing since Meridian 59 and Game 2 is nothing like UO. Game 2 is an overhyped mess.  You're just a hater and had too many expectations for Game 1"

User B : "Yeah, I expected it not to suck.  By the way you're a dipshit.  You are now blocked.  Have fun talking to yourself!"

 

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Camaro68

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 52

12/15/12 9:43:39 PM#26

I'm trying to figure out how fully-voiced and animated quest cutscenes are "lifeless" compared to NPCs in all other MMOs who do nothing but silently throw you a wall of text. 

The only thing I can agree on is that the performance is punishing.  Load times are definitely ridiculous. 

But obviously its not the end of the world for SWTOR.  The only MMOs with more players are WoW and GW2(the latter of which may end up with less than SWTOR pretty soon).

 

 

  JKwervo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 140

12/15/12 10:20:58 PM#27
I've played it, and I agree with him regarding FPS issues.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7026

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

12/15/12 10:39:03 PM#28

I feel Khartelli got a lot right,especially the single player game theme that most every game is doing.That is the underlying fault of devs,they simply do not understand how to go outside the box of single player game design.

What i am skeptical about is the "immersion" part,i do not feel immersed in ANY game that has me constantly looking on the map for green markers.That is exactly all you do in this game aside from flashpoints ,but again that is not a MMO factor,just a small instance ,again something i don't like in my games.

I have played a LOT of SWTOR and still play from time to time,but i don't have enough to go on to really compare it to GW2.

I do know there is a HUGE difference between Bioware and Anet.Anet is the most arrogant developer i have seen in my entire life of gaming,yes not even Blizzard comes close.Bioware is more down to earth and respectful.

We really do not know all the ins and outs,Bioware may have had very little control over the design,it might have been an EA push right from day 1.They wouldn't tell us anyhow,the industry needs to kiss each others ass to keep getting employment and keep the money train on  rails.

Personally if i had a choice i would play SWTOR before GW2.Well so happens i do have a choice and i do play SWTOR.

Since the there is this new wave of F2p ,i now rate games on weather i woudl pay or not.Neither SWTOR nor GW2 would get a sub fee from me.That is how i rate AAA from AA gaming.Any game i would pay a sub fee i would rate a AAA game.After that i rate games based on Browser based or just plain crap.

right now i only sub to FFXI and EQ2.I play several games for free because that is really all they are worth to me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  JKwervo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 140

12/15/12 11:22:04 PM#29
That's funny. In my experience, I found Bioware to be profoundly more arrogant than ANY developer I've ever dealt with.
  Camaro68

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 52

12/15/12 11:38:07 PM#30
Originally posted by Wizardry

I feel Khartelli got a lot right,especially the single player game theme that most every game is doing.That is the underlying fault of devs,they simply do not understand how to go outside the box of single player game design.

What i am skeptical about is the "immersion" part,i do not feel immersed in ANY game that has me constantly looking on the map for green markers.That is exactly all you do in this game aside from flashpoints ,but again that is not a MMO factor,just a small instance ,again something i don't like in my games.

I have played a LOT of SWTOR and still play from time to time,but i don't have enough to go on to really compare it to GW2.

I do know there is a HUGE difference between Bioware and Anet.Anet is the most arrogant developer i have seen in my entire life of gaming,yes not even Blizzard comes close.Bioware is more down to earth and respectful.

We really do not know all the ins and outs,Bioware may have had very little control over the design,it might have been an EA push right from day 1.They wouldn't tell us anyhow,the industry needs to kiss each others ass to keep getting employment and keep the money train on  rails.

Personally if i had a choice i would play SWTOR before GW2.Well so happens i do have a choice and i do play SWTOR.

Since the there is this new wave of F2p ,i now rate games on weather i woudl pay or not.Neither SWTOR nor GW2 would get a sub fee from me.That is how i rate AAA from AA gaming.Any game i would pay a sub fee i would rate a AAA game.After that i rate games based on Browser based or just plain crap.

right now i only sub to FFXI and EQ2.I play several games for free because that is really all they are worth to me.

 

I tried EQ2 a few times over the years and couldn't get into it until a couple years ago.  When I did, I found it to be the closest to what alot of MMO players say they want.  Tons of character depth and customization, a huge world, tons of backstory, a pretty neat tradeskill system, personalized housing, etc.

So the last 2 MMO's I've really enjoyed have been EQ2 and SWTOR--ironically they both run like dogs(or did I haven't played EQ2 since I upgraded)--but neither wound being viewed as successful.

  eddieg50

Elite Member

Joined: 6/22/05
Posts: 1548

12/15/12 11:42:02 PM#31
Originally posted by Meridion

Wow...

I reinstalled it, free to play preferred because I spent my 30 days a year ago...

It's hard to describe.

I can turn the pace down now as this game is a sidekick and will stay a sidekick for me. 

But as I went back to it, I could remember the marketing, the hype and the launch a lot clearer than last december. And one thing struck me in the face like a truck. Almost like "willing suspension of disbelif" must be a drug that numbs the brain when you're excited for a game launch...

Star Wars: The Old Republic is - from a technical standpoint - a wreck. 

I purchased a new PC during the year, I7, GTX680, all the good stuff, and upon entering SWTOR I set everything to high, and it performed ok (after having huge troubles last year), but damn, in the light of recent releases like GW2 or Planetside 2, it looks extremely bad. Indoor stuff is blocky, modules stuck together, the world is small and lifeless, there are glitches everywhere. There are on-rails zones with zero choice of diversion...

It really made my jaw drop. I - honestly - said to myself "how on earth could I fall for this a year ago", the game, even now, is terrible...

I mean sure its free now and I don't pay a cent, but paying for this game feels like a really streched expectation now...

In fact, it feels like STO did in 2010.

And I really don't get how games like GW2 can offer that extreme difference in content quantity and quality with just the box price. 

Are developer teams so hugely different in competence? Compared to mobile phones or PC distributors the quality and "bang for the buck"-differences in MMORPGs seem extreme these days.

M

  

Everyone's taste are different, I think GW2 is dull compared to GW1 or Tor, I have had no problems with TOR graphics or lag, althought GW2 has a more animated World its gameplay is dull compared to TOR

  Neo_Liberty

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 437

12/16/12 12:04:35 AM#32

its funny how everyone turned this into a i like this game/ don't like that game thread...

 

the focus was the game's WORLD. GW2 game world is much better than tor's there is no disputing that... mobs move..... npc's move. there is much more variety and graphic quality.. gameplay is something different.. and to each their own.

  baphamet

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2668

110100100

12/16/12 2:16:45 AM#33

i prefer SWTOR over GW2, even though GW2 has a decent single player mmo experience as well.

  comradedoug

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/08
Posts: 31

12/16/12 4:27:05 PM#34

I found GW2 to be utterly lifeless. WvW meant nothing, there was no faction to get behind other than the color red, green or blue. Red is my favorite color, but still...

 

Further, their "dynamic" events repeat themselves. Perhaps it was the idea that the world was truly dynamic that made me realize just how utterly un-dynamic it was. I fail to see how having two zones to go to is somehow ultra liberation from "on rails" given the fact each SWTOR planet has more content than a GW2 zone. Further, the content you do in GW2 zones is on a constant cycle, literally a timed one, I fail to see how that is not "on rails." What's more, GW2's endgame was an atrocious grind for gear. World exploration was even more boring. As stated above, WvW was just a cinematic zerg with some strategy involved.

 

More to the point, SWTOR is not what GW2 is and never claimed to be. If you prefer more "freedom" be it supercial as it is, then you might prefer Gw2. Nohing wrong with that, but that also doesn't suggest there is anything wrong with tor.

  Shadin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/04
Posts: 297

12/16/12 4:44:48 PM#35
The sober approach? See, that's what you're doing wrong then - I always play it drunk!
  Oberholzer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/25/06
Posts: 502

12/16/12 4:51:00 PM#36
I thought the title of this thread meant you tried to play SWTOR sober and it was a mistake.
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

12/16/12 5:06:34 PM#37
Originally posted by Maxima1979
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by WizardryBioware is more down to earth and respectful.
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
[mod edit]

 

To Mikahr's original statement about deleted posts, EA did wipe the old forums, including some juicy stuff about beta testers being told they were idiots / morons (when they insisted that SWTOR should not pursue being a WoW clone) and that the devs knew what they were doing.  Many beta testers were banned from beta testing.  It's been observed and discussed many times over.

Denial is the first sign ...

 

ps: I don't understand all the hate you have for people wanting the game (as well as Star Wars in general) to get better..

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Maxima1979

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/16/12
Posts: 22

12/16/12 5:17:26 PM#38
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Maxima1979
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by WizardryBioware is more down to earth and respectful.

Really? The game which devs said that "most MMO players are idiots?" THAT company?

Man...rofl

By the way here is the proper way to use a quote.  It helps if its a real quote also and in the correct context which your history shows you have an issue with doing.

 

This is a quote from two weeks ago.  They were talking about how successfull f2p has been. 
 
Schubert concurred, and he also mentioned that the numbers support BioWare's current position. "Almost every conceivable metric is better. The numbers have blown away our expectations, which means good things for the players and the game," he said.

Instead of spamming that quote on all your alt accounts on MMORPG.com, you really should get a variety of quotes to mix things up :P

 

Erm incidently, you should also follow your own advice on proper citations and link the source, beyond just quotes.  I'd like to see the context of that statement all the same.  I've read the interview before (somewhere), but since you keep linking it (all around this subforum and in the Pub), I'd like to read it again.

 

To Mikahr's original statement about deleted posts, EA did wipe the old forums, including some juicy stuff about beta testers being told they were idiots / morons (when they insisted that SWTOR should not pursue being a WoW clone) and that the devs knew what they were doing.  Many beta testers were banned from beta testing.  It's been observed and discussed many times over.

Denial is the first sign ...

 

ps: I don't understand all the hate you have for people wanting the game (as well as Star Wars in general) to get better..

Here is your link  http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/30/swtor-livestream-qanda-highlights-f2p-success-bioware-listening/

 

There is no issue with those who truly want the game to get better.  You post on every single SWTOR post also, you provide facts, and links to your arguements and I feel you do want it to get better and have played it.  Just look at his history nothing constructive has ever been brought up by him.  That is the issue.

 

As for beta testers being banned, it happens on every single MMO.  As for the dev calling people idiots sorry unless you two can come up with some links to the quotes I will continue to say they are not true. 

  Maxima1979

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/16/12
Posts: 22

12/16/12 5:49:07 PM#39
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Maxima1979

 

So your going to make a quote on a quote that supposedly has been deleted? Ive been playing mmos for a long time kid so not a noob thanks. And there is a huge difference between "following" a game for years and well hating on a game for years. I guess even a noob as myself can learn how to look at a players history. Mostly lies, false quotes, quotes out context , inaccuate facts, and seems to have some personal beef with SWTOR. Its clear you dont and have never played SWTOR, why spend so much time posting lies, inaccuate facts, quotes that "supposedly " got deleted on a game you dont play?

[mod edit]

Originally posted by JKwervo
[mod edit]

[mod edit]

I would love to have an mature, educated converstation about SWTOR with you, but you clearly have never played the game.  Deleting pre-launch forums is not unusual in an mmo, you being an expert I figured you would have know that. 

 

I was not saying the forums did not get deleted I am saying your quote you used was "supposedly" deleted.  Yes you can go ahead and put anything between "       "  and think its going to be the truth. See watch this Mikahr said "he has never played SWTOR and has some personal beef with the game"  Well us educated people will smell a rat and know that its not always correct. 

  Maxima1979

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/16/12
Posts: 22

12/16/12 5:58:23 PM#40
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Maxima1979

I would love to have an mature, educated converstation about SWTOR with you, but you clearly have never played the game.  Deleting pre-launch forums is not unusual in an mmo, you being an expert I figured you would have know that. 

 

I was not saying the forums did not get deleted I am saying your quote you used was "supposedly" deleted.  Yes you can go ahead and put anything between "       "  and think its going to be the truth.  Well us educated people will smell a rat and know that its not always correct. 

Wow, well you educated people (how weird to call yourself in plural, hmm) facts are facts, and if you want to live in ignrance be my guest. Just dont spam forums with random nonsense in the process pls, thank you.

Wow maybe you should take your own words and use them buddy.  All you do is spam every single post about SWTOR and provide nothing but random nonsense.  I understand you can't comprehend the fact a lot of people enjoy the game.  Maybe some how SWTOR hurt you.  And your way to get back to them is to post lies, inaccurate facts, quotes out of context, quotes that no longer exist, and call others names.  Well if that makes you feel better good for you. 

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