Crazy???? A single player MMO underpreforms????

I only hope the EA employees go first as many of them were heads of bioware.  Bioware did their part the class stories were enjoyable, leveling was fun.  EA did the endgame.

i wonder how much they paid him for trolling sounds like the perfect job for me

It's not just some dev members that were bumped off, the CRM Stephen Reid got bumped off to, a CRM.

Originally posted by tares

Crazy???? A single player MMO underpreforms????

I only hope the EA employees go first as many of them were heads of bioware.  Bioware did their part the class stories were enjoyable, leveling was fun.  EA did the endgame.

Bioware IS EA now.. there is no separation.  You can't blame one without the other.  Bioware ceases to exist for all intents and purposes.

Originally posted by observer

It's amazing how the fanboys still defend this game.  They will still defend this game when it becomes free 2 play soon.  Fanboys will still defend it when it gets shut down like other EA MMO's.

OMG, yes.   And out of complete ignorance as well.  In a different thread I had some fanboy who worked in a data center for a couple of years tell me my 30% estimate of the fully weighted server costs was too high because he made $21 an hour and was the only employee at some 300-server data center...   Some of these fanboys have absolutely no concept of math, forecasting, projecting, finance and accounting or even reality...

WoW, last quarter, took in $251 million in sub revenue.   Their costs for the NA/European servers was $59 million.   They don't pay for the Chinese servers, they license that out to NetEase and get some of the revenue as royalties.   A deal they just, btw, renewed:

World of Warcraft developer Blizzard Entertainment today said that it will continue its partnership with Chinese MMO operator NetEase, with NetEase operating WoW servers in China for at least the next three years.
 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/166857/Chinese_World_of_Warcraft_operator_NetEase_renews_Blizzard_contract.php

So, when we talk about 24% of costs to revenue, it's not entirely accurate.   Blizzard counts all revenues as sub revenues, but only has to bear the costs of the NA/Euro servers.   Since they don't break-out the Chinese subs from all the subs, I can only go by what I have.   And that says that costs are 24% of revenue which includes the 'no cost' Chinese revenue.   Clearly this means that 24% as a cost to direct-operated-server costs is too low. 

Then we have economies of scale..   Blizzard servers are bigger.   Economies of scale will give them an advantage over SWTOR as welll...

And last, server costs to operate have a huge fixed-cost component and a small variable-cost component.   Empty or full, they cost close to the same to operate.   So if it costs $100/month to operate a server and you make $500/month on the server, your cost is 20% (100/500).  But if you loose $250 now your cost is at 40% (100/250).

So, in fairness, I think 30% is a good estimate for the BioWare costs and  I think it could easily be higher.  I don't think $251 million in  WoW sub revenues is the correct denominator and using it understates the percentage costs.  I think the real western sub revenue was about $180 to $190 million as I think they really only have 4 million western subs now  (they didn't even sell 4 million of the last expansion so even that is a bit on the 'hmmmm...' for me).  But Blizzard hides it all behind the 'world-wide' picture and doesn't provide the regional data.    

I think the real fully-weighted server cost percentage for Blizzard is closer to 32%.    But I can't prove it with hard numbers so I go with what I have, which I fully believe understates actual, fully-weighted costs.     So I think I'm being more-than-fair at 30% because I think that's pretty close to Blizzard's and  BioWare has two additional hits -- a lot of EMPTY servers and poor economies of scale.   

Accounting is hard.  Tracking all this stuff is hard.   Making sure you understand all the financial information and issues is hard.   And yet some fanboy who worked in a data center, who is completely devoid of facts and lacking (entirely) in education and experience in this area is telling me I'm full of bull...   Frack me Ray Bradbury...

Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

This short video sums up SW:TOR quite handily!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M9b8zZtoPQ

lawl.

This video sums up SW:TOR better and it's much shorter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuSdU8tbcHY

---

Originally posted by mindsplit
"We executed one of the largest, most successful and stable launches of any MMO yet in industry history."

It's true... doesn't change the fact that it's engame is a total fail.

---

Based upon name/branding alone though, not due to any quality present in the product.

It needed a real engine and another year+ on the dev bench.

Alot of the blame can be dumped on the downies who coded/purchased the Hero engine.

Originally posted by MosesZD

But I can't prove it with hard numbers so I go with what I have, which I fully believe understates actual, fully-weighted costs.

So let's call it by the name that is quite fitting: your "data" is all guesswork.

Here is what I'd suggest: either provide the hard data including obvious links to Blizz and BW/EA's detailed operational costs for running their WoW and their SWTOR operation.

Or just shut up!

Otherwise you just sound like

Originally posted by MosesZD

some fanboy who worked in a data center, who is completely devoid of facts and lacking (entirely) in education and experience in this area is telling me I'm full of bull...

well, I should probably scratch the "fanboy" and replace it with "SWTOR hater"... *shrug*

Anyways, point overall is: there are layoffs at Bioware Austin.

Whatever that means for SWTOR remains to be seen.  

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Darth-Ninja

Maybe TOR will be the last chapter in this book of generic theme-park carrot on a stick game design approach for mmo's. Or maybe not... But I cant see another company rounding up investors to drop this kind of cash on another mmo any time in the near future though, so itll probably be the last one of those any of us will see for a long long time.

Sorry, but Devs havent learned anything

/inc The Elder Scrolls Online

 

To be fair, according to anything that's out there, TESO began development in about 2006-2007 timeframe, roughly same time as SWTOR.  That boat left long ago, and they're not going to change it up to suit longtime TES fans at all.  This far in development?  No way, not unless you want a disastrous revamp late in development like Tabula Rasa had.

To me, as a longtime TES fan, TESO is a lost cause.

As for the BioWare layoffs, maybe this will kick them in the nuts enough to do things the old school BioWare way.  Back when the company was undisputedly the best RPG dev house out there.

But that's being overly optimistic.

They have to fire and replace  the Lead developer and not the small employees.........

again the wrong decision .

Originally posted by tares

Crazy???? A single player MMO underpreforms????

I only hope the EA employees go first as many of them were heads of bioware.  Bioware did their part the class stories were enjoyable, leveling was fun.  EA did the endgame.

I found them to be dull and uninspired.   A lot of this stems from I'm 51 and extremely well-read in Sci-Fi and Fantasy.  So I could see where they came from.    But a lot comes from the writers weren't good enough to palagerize or re-write old cliche's in fresh, interestiing way.

So, we have some of the more obvious palagerized rip-offs of rip-offs such as the Jedi Knight story of Chapter 1.    I mean, seriously, a planet blowing up superweapon...   My mentor is killed by the powerful Sith Lord...    Holy thinly-disguised Star Wars Episode IV rip-off...     And there were others, but that one was so striking I found myself laughing at the blatent rip-off.

Plenty of other stories that were palagerized or were such old cliche's that unless done exceptionaly well, they were going to be problematic.   The 'find the mystery cure' jidi consular arc is a classic plot coupon device done to death.   The Great Hunt plot device for the Bounty Hunter orginated in Medieval literature (Arabian Nights) and has been done (mostly badly, sometimes good (Raiders of the Lost Arc)) to death.    The Smugglers Chapter 1 story arc...   Treasure hunt in space with a princess...    You must be kidding me...   It was so Raiders of the Lost Ark...    Only not as good...

And so it went...   Time and time again.

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by MosesZD

But I can't prove it with hard numbers so I go with what I have, which I fully believe understates actual, fully-weighted costs.

 

So let's call it by the name that is quite fitting: your "data" is all guesswork.

Here is what I'd suggest: either provide the hard data including obvious links to Blizz and BW/EA's detailed operational costs for running their WoW and their SWTOR operation.

Or just shut up!

Otherwise you just sound like

Originally posted by MosesZD

some fanboy who worked in a data center, who is completely devoid of facts and lacking (entirely) in education and experience in this area is telling me I'm full of bull...

well, I should probably scratch the "fanboy" and replace it with "SWTOR hater"... *shrug*

 

Anyways, point overall is: there are layoffs at Bioware Austin.

Whatever that means for SWTOR remains to be seen.  

Oh please.    You expect us to put our brains away because you don't like the news?    Tough.

They lost 900,000 customers in 70-days.    That's 43% of their customer base.    In just 70-days.     That's what BAD MMOS do.  Good ones grow for months or years after release.   Bad ones contract immediately after release.  

So it is, so it has always been with MMOs.   From Asheron's Call to SWTOR.    Good ones grow for months and years.  Bad ones fail right out of the gate.

And calling a failure a failure doesn't make you a hater.    A hater,  in a more realistic sense of the word, is someone that bags on a successful, growing IP over trivial issues and is in a significant minority of the gaming crowd.     Not one of the nine-hundred thousand that found a stinking pile of dung and said "Oh, look, a stinking pile of dung.  Don't step in it."

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Darth-Ninja

Maybe TOR will be the last chapter in this book of generic theme-park carrot on a stick game design approach for mmo's. Or maybe not... But I cant see another company rounding up investors to drop this kind of cash on another mmo any time in the near future though, so itll probably be the last one of those any of us will see for a long long time.

Sorry, but Devs havent learned anything

/inc The Elder Scrolls Online

 

To be fair, according to anything that's out there, TESO began development in about 2006-2007 timeframe, roughly same time as SWTOR.  That boat left long ago, and they're not going to change it up to suit longtime TES fans at all.  This far in development?  No way, not unless you want a disastrous revamp late in development like Tabula Rasa had.

To me, as a longtime TES fan, TESO is a lost cause.

As for the BioWare layoffs, maybe this will kick them in the nuts enough to do things the old school BioWare way.  Back when the company was undisputedly the best RPG dev house out there.

But that's being overly optimistic.

This WAS old-school BioWare:

1.   Over-hype game.   Go back to NWN and the DM tool.   What we got was a shadow of what was promised.   Plus the campaign was pretty crappy.   Every game since then has followed the same pattern.

2.  Do not admit mistakes.    ME3's ending where they made a Deus EX ending ripped off from Deus Ex.   Aristotle pointed out somewhere around 325BC that you dont do that.  THat the solution for story has to come from earlier in the story and not some Deus Ex ending.    It's 2400 years later and they couldn't get it right....    It's one of the oldest and most sacrosanct rules in fiction.   And they blew it trying to be 'clever.'    DA2 was a mistake.

3.  Blatently lie.   Jade Empire was advertised and released as an "XBox exclusive" to only be released on the XBox with no PC release.   Two years later, when they needed money they released it on PC.   They LIED on the forums about what they said.  When people hit the old Internet Way-Back machine and linked up what they said, BioWare banned them as 'disruptive.'

4.  Blame the gamers.   BioWare has a history of shoddy engine and effects work.  When things go bad, they always blame the gamers and say it's just some small percentage of malcontents.   SWTOR is a classic example, but it happened in other games, too.