Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by SuperDonk

SWTOR will be used as an example of what not to do when developing and maintaining an MMO.

 

HAHA

 

Same was said for Vanguard and then AoC, then WAR and also STO

Dont forget NGE.

 

There are a long list of games in the "What NOT to do" pile.

Problem is, Devs (for some insane reason) keep rooting around in that pile and putting that same crap back in these new games.

I think the exact opposite is true. MMO developers think "I got this great idea" lock themselves up in an ivory tower for half a decade, then proudly launch their great creation on the huddled masses below and wonder why they don't regonize a single thing in the world around them anymore and everyone goes "who the hell are you and what is this montrosity you call a MMO, have you been living in a game? It is missing all the essential features and includes all the mistakes of half a decade ago".

Games evolve, take very basic stuff like saving. F5 for save? It didn't used to exist, now it is near standard. The number keys for item/action selection? Someone invented that. And others copied and it became the norm.

And you either learn from that and made sure your game stands on the shoulders of others OR have to re-invent everything yourself the hardway. Like dealing with spammers.

If I wish for one thing and one thing alone, it is a MMO that at launch has the well established basic mechanism for dealing with spam ready at the start. 

If MMO's were cars, every new car would launch without brakes and the developers would go "A means to stop? Gosh whatever are you thinking user, go away, maybe in 1.6"

Agreed! Arrogant and egotistical describes their attitudes.

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Originally posted by Vocadi

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Originally posted by galphar Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums: 1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad" 2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad" 3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"   Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.

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On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  

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Galphar is just pointing out the repetitive nature of these forums. The responses and opinions expressed seem almost independent of the games themselves. Every new game that releases follows the same trends on these forums. You can literally watch it happen. It's worse than being bad, it's boring.

Everyone can express their opinion, but it might be more interesting if they engaged in a discussion instead of a shouting match trying to "win" the thread.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Vocadi

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Originally posted by galphar Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums: 1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad" 2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad" 3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"   Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.

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On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  

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Galphar is just pointing out the repetitive nature of these forums. The responses and opinions expressed seem almost independent of the games themselves. Every new game that releases follows the same trends on these forums. You can literally watch it happen. It's worse than being bad, it's boring.

Everyone can express their opinion, but it might be more interesting if they engaged in a discussion instead of a shouting match trying to "win" the thread.

 

Considering the route most of the newer mmos have gone and their cycle is it the least surprising people's response and remarks on it has followed the same pattern? I think believing it is simply the nature of this forum is a tad shortsighted frankly.

Star Wars is dead due to lack of forsight from ea/blizzard and the devs using an old engine that limited what they could do and how they could do it.  It also is dead becasue it did not go outside the box, it stayed with the 10 rats,fedex, that we all know too well.

We were all warned but I fell for the hype anyways. 

Star Wars is going to be looked at as how not to do an mmo.

Originally posted by erictlewis

Star Wars is dead due to lack of forsight from ea/blizzard and the devs using an old engine that limited what they could do and how they could do it.  It also is dead becasue it did not go outside the box, it stayed with the 10 rats,fedex, that we all know too well.

We were all warned but I fell for the hype anyways. 

Star Wars is going to be looked at as how not to do an mmo.

What does Blizzard have to do with it?

Originally posted by garretth

players have a long memory.

 

I'd suggest that Bioware talk to the folks over at Turbine about AC2 and its sad demise years ago.

Turbine had the bones of a great game and ruined it...simply threw it down a stinkpit...by not understanding or listening to their playerbase.

 

 

I liked everything up to and including Moria (especially Moria).  The problem was they just stopped developing new content.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Vocadi

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Originally posted by galphar Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums: 1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad" 2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad" 3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"   Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.

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On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  

---

Galphar is just pointing out the repetitive nature of these forums. The responses and opinions expressed seem almost independent of the games themselves. Every new game that releases follows the same trends on these forums. You can literally watch it happen. It's worse than being bad, it's boring.

Everyone can express their opinion, but it might be more interesting if they engaged in a discussion instead of a shouting match trying to "win" the thread.

 

Of course these forums are repetitive.  Every new mmorpg game that comes out is a WoW clone.  It sucks for the same reasons that the last WoW clone sucked and it gets the same responses.  When every game makes you kill 10 rats, and you don't like killing 10 rats, then maybe you will post that every game sucks for being boring or whatever.   Developers wanted to make shit loads of money by copying WoW.  As predicted, this ended up as massive fail.  Now that SWTOR's head is on a pike as a warning to other game companies, products will be more innovative.  We already have some more innovative games coming out this year, like GW2 and TSW.  I'm not as sure about TSW but at least with GW2 I am pretty certain you won't find the same kind of complaints you got about WoW clones.  The game is very different

Originally posted by holdenhamlet

Originally posted by garretth

players have a long memory.

 

I'd suggest that Bioware talk to the folks over at Turbine about AC2 and its sad demise years ago.

Turbine had the bones of a great game and ruined it...simply threw it down a stinkpit...by not understanding or listening to their playerbase.

 

 

I liked everything up to and including Moria (especially Moria).  The problem was they just stopped developing new content.

moria was great, what came after som was terible I left at that point.  I don't even keep up with the game I think they added isengaurd,  but I left when they took it free to play and never looked back.

i hate to say it but i would not have re-subbed when knowing what kinda arrogant persons these BW developers are.....

I was following SWTOR development since late 2008 and their arrogance was visible from the very beggining.

However, at that time they had Mass Effect and DA:O and their arrogance was riding on the wave of success of those games, which was understandable.

Meanwhile, quality of their products started to decline  (DA2, SWTOR, ME3) and they still kept their patronizing attitude towards their customers.

Actually, their attitude is the main reason why a lot of people are bashing Bioware and SWTOR. Serves them right IMHO.

 

Its sad. Beta's used to be about fine tuning and improving your product wether it be content or coding. Now they its just another marketing ploy. My husband was in the SWTOR early beta  (July 2011 round there). He provided alot of feedback on content and possible future foibles. In fact he along with alot of other testers were very active on several hot issues on the official forums

Nothing that was advocated for change was implemented. Obviously by the time beta rolls around, developers already know what they are keeping and are only looking for certain things.  A beta now is just a glorified demo.

If they had listened to us peon's from the top of their high horses, they might just have been able to salvage another year or more of solid gaming and subscriber numbers instead of the joke TOR has turned into.

Originally posted by Vocadi

Its sad. Beta's used to be about fine tuning and improving your product wether it be content or coding. Now they its just another marketing ploy. My husband was in the SWTOR early beta  (July 2011 round there). He provided alot of feedback on content and possible future foibles. In fact he along with alot of other testers were very active on several hot issues on the official forums

Nothing that was advocated for change was implemented. Obviously by the time beta rolls around, developers already know what they are keeping and are only looking for certain things.  A beta now is just a glorified demo.

If they had listened to us peon's from the top of their high horses, they might just have been able to salvage another year or more of solid gaming and subscriber numbers instead of the joke TOR has turned into.

 They didn't listen to shit. Hell, there were some great threads on their forums long before beta even began suggetsing everything from warning about server management to how PvP should be (and should not) be incorporated into the game that none of which was heeded by BW. Shame really because if they would have bothered to pay attention to their own forums they could have saved themselves a lot of headaches.

All the feedback in beta was ignored and thats why the game isin a sad state. 

SWTOR is not dead.  To call it dead is just silly.  However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.

You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.

The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.

Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.

I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most.  If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.

Originally posted by Pogmahone

All the feedback in beta was ignored and thats why the game isin a sad state. 

it is frustrating when genuine concerns are ignored, and makes you wonder why even bother with having a Beta, if all its going to be is some kind of early access reward for buying the game.  Maybe real innovation will only happen when Devs themselves have a more open mind, and open ears...

Originally posted by DeaconX

SWTOR is not dead.  To call it dead is just silly.  However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.

You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.

The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.

Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.

I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most.  If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.

i would buy that game...  but i don't see it happening in my lifetime

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Pogmahone

All the feedback in beta was ignored and thats why the game isin a sad state. 

it is frustrating when genuine concerns are ignored, and makes you wonder why even bother with having a Beta, if all its going to be is some kind of early access reward for buying the game.  Maybe real innovation will only happen when Devs themselves have a more open mind, and open ears...

During beta, I really got the sense that my feedback was a tiny voice in an ocean and the currents were really against me.  So, I'm not sure if beta feedback was largely ignored, or the majority of the people were simply pushing in a different direction.

I think it's most likely the head honchos at BioWare Austin simply had their design set in stone years ago and weren't really going about creating the game in an agile manner, thus there were situations like 'Players are saying this is no good? Well too bad we've spent so much time making it this way - it's too late to change now.'

I understand. They had deadlines, budgets, all being juggled by some of the most notable names in the business.  I still wish the game were simply a different kind of beast but ah well... it's too late to change now.

 

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by DeaconX

SWTOR is not dead.  To call it dead is just silly.  However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.

You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.

The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.

Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.

I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most.  If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.

i would buy that game...  but i don't see it happening in my lifetime

Indeed :(

SWTOR isn't 'dead'. At least not yet, and probably won't be for a long time, however they're rapidly waning and I don't quite understand *why*. I've read peoples opinions on this matter and honestly so many of them make 0 sense and seem rather baseless.

 

I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.

 

SW:TOR has so many great qualities to it, yet it's picked apart relentlessly by people who've never really PLAYED the game. People have been waiting in such eager anticipation for the "next big release" for this genre, that I honestly believe ANY game that had come out with such a heavy spotlight on it would of been facing this. If GW2 had come out first, it would of been picked apart relentlessly, faced bad press and generally just fallen apart so to speak.

The truth is, SW:TOR is so much better right out the gate than ANY mmo release over the last 5 or 6 years has been. It has leagues more content than other games have had,  and in reality it doesn't have many bugs. I've almost come to the conclusion that what a lot of this MMO community wants out of a game is still very simplistic and boring. I think people would still rather have a game that's pretty vapid and based more on numbers, shallow character building, and would rather still be delusional about their competitiveness in PvP,  than to have a game that has a very strong emphesis on immerssive properties such as story, choice, and a relatively customized experience based off those things. I'd dare say that it's like many people weren't *ready* for this type of stuff yet.

I know I'll get flamed endlessly, and it's sad that I can genuinely expect that from this community but it will just further confirm my beliefs about the whole thing. I find it really depressing, and disappointing that really it's the people in the MMO community that are arrogant, and not the developers as much as you would like to think. I'm over blaming every little thing on developers instead of the community, when many things that happen with these games are based off of communities and there's only so much you can do to mitigate it. I never was a big Star Wars fan, and I never really kept a close eye on this game until maybe a year and a half before it came out...But when i got it I found myself experiencing what I've wanted so badly in this genre for a long time and now I have it, and people are ruining it for me and because of that I'll probably have to end up playing boring, run of the mill, textbox MMO's for the next 5 or 10 years if I decide to follow the genre at all anymore.

Originally posted by Valentina

SWTOR isn't 'dead'. At least not yet, and probably won't be for a long time, however they're rapidly waning and I don't quite understand *why*. I've read peoples opinions on this matter and honestly so many of them make 0 sense and seem rather baseless.

 

I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.

 

SW:TOR has so many great qualities to it, yet it's picked apart relentlessly by people who've never really PLAYED the game. People have been waiting in such eager anticipation for the "next big release" for this genre, that I honestly believe ANY game that had come out with such a heavy spotlight on it would of been facing this. If GW2 had come out first, it would of been picked apart relentlessly, faced bad press and generally just fallen apart so to speak.

The truth is, SW:TOR is so much better right out the gate than ANY mmo release over the last 5 or 6 years has been. It has leagues more content than other games have had,  and in reality it doesn't have many bugs. I've almost come to the conclusion that what a lot of this MMO community wants out of a game is still very simplistic and boring. I think people would still rather have a game that's pretty vapid and based more on numbers, shallow character building, and would rather still be delusional about their competitiveness in PvP,  than to have a game that has a very strong emphesis on immerssive properties such as story, choice, and a relatively customized experience based off those things. I'd dare say that it's like many people weren't *ready* for this type of stuff yet.

I know I'll get flamed endlessly, and it's sad that I can genuinely expect that from this community but it will just further confirm my beliefs about the whole thing. I find it really depressing, and disappointing that really it's the people in the MMO community that are arrogant, and not the developers as much as you would like to think. I'm over blaming every little thing on developers instead of the community, when many things that happen with these games are based off of communities and there's only so much you can do to mitigate it. I never was a big Star Wars fan, and I never really kept a close eye on this game until maybe a year and a half before it came out...But when i got it I found myself experiencing what I've wanted so badly in this genre for a long time and now I have it, and people are ruining it for me and because of that I'll probably have to end up playing boring, run of the mill, textbox MMO's for the next 5 or 10 years if I decide to follow the genre at all anymore.

Usually flaming occurs when you generalize or negatively lump a populace into a specific group... Your not the only person who enjoyed SWTOR and so good for you. There are a number of threads and subscibers on these forums who indicated they like the game. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion different then someone else.

I must say I am confused on your statement that the mmo community wants a simplistic, vapid game based on numbers and character building instead of immersion. In my opinion a true feeling of immersion is when a game hits on all the things that feel complex and deep. Character choices, exciting gameworlds with ample opportunity to explore, quests which make me feel like I truly am a player in a community, not another avatar running back and forth collecting egg sacks.

Unfotunately I think you may have opened yourself up for a few heated responses because it seems you may have negatively generalized the posters on this website...