Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Breitbart

 

Just be patient for GW2, as is probably your plan.

 

Honestly, how long do you think people will play GW2 before they move onto something else?  I'm guessing a week max when you can get max level in less than a week.

Considering there is no monthly subs.... I am guessing people will be playing GW2 for a lot longer than 2 weeks.

Not to mention that this is a damn near perfect game for Gaming parents to get their kids involved in (with moderation of course). I for one am getting this game for myself and my son, buy the game once and it is always there to play with no more need to spend money on it until an expansion comes along. Plus there will be more content and replay ability than most if not all console games.

Originally posted by bartoni33

I agree with this 100%!

They should have kept this game the way it was meant to be: A SP Bioware RPG with co-op aspects. THAT would have been epic! THAT is what all the Biodrones/whatever wanted. A KotOR 3 or whatever. PvP should have NEVER been in this game, at least not at launch. Who the fuck wants to PvP in a Bioware RPG? That is not what we are here for. We are here for the story, cutscenes/mini-movies, and the chance to get our groove on with some space chick/dude. If you are playing TOR for the PvP then you are doing it wrong.

But as some people have pointed out, the game "looks" great but the enviroment is dead at best. Wax museum-esk someone has said. Sounds right. Little things like that is what makes this game not as good as it could have been. Less (or no) time spent on bullshit PvP... bullshit would have been better served spent on RPG aspects like a dynamic world and actually being able to sit down when you are in a Cantina.

I'm still enjoying the game (my XFire stats prove that; yes some of us are actually playing) and will do so for quite a while it looks like. This is the first time I have stuck with a MMO from launch to over 100 hours at one time. I'm usually bored after a few months. So far so good.

Yah, they should have sticked to original plan and not listen to "mmo fans" and EA.

Now "mmo fans" have their copy of WoW and they dont like it, because, gasp, they are bored of it (not that quite a few people can now say "we told you so")

RPG/BW fans got watered down RPG (to level of generic MMO), and of course its well below standard for acceptable game, especially when they expexct you to pay monthly sub.

If someone doesnt know what was original plan:

Leveling with strong personal class story (they even mentioned you could level on class story alone) with optional group quests (guess those are heroics now) and FPs, no quest hubs and very small amount of generic MMO fetch quests. Endgame was supposed to be crossover between themepark and sandbox.

I would have played that. If for nothing else , for 8 class stories, which would take considerable more time and fun than repeating myriad generic MMO quests ala WoW/LOTRO/Rift...with a very sparse sprinkle of unique class quests.

WoW clone...i really tried to like it, but its just too generic and boring, its like ive been playing same game for...well..forever now.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by colddog04

 

I just figured I might as well make shit up that was on the other extreme.

 

I see, well I was basing my estimate off of actual people's accounts of getting to level 30-40 in one weekend.  I wasn't pulling these numbers out of nowhere.  And typically, a large majority of people leave once they reach peak level.

I find your estimate laughable. Any sane person would.

 

I also find the evidence that you use to support the estimate to be lacking. 

You're really going to make me copy and paste because you're too damn lazy and trollish to believe me?  Fine.  From these very forums:

From thread "What level did you get to?"

saurus123: "level 30 human ranger"

Vannor: "I got to 18 this weekend but played very very little, about 8-10 hours. In the previous beta weekend I got to 32."

gaenprayor: "30 here, halfway to 31 before the weekend ended but by 30 I stopped bothering, any exp I got after that point was from PvP and the finale event."

moosecatlol: "I may have been level 34, but Furion Ticklepits was easily a level 81 legendary boss."

---

So why is my estimate laughable again?

Your premise is that getting to 80 will make people quit. There is no evidence to back that up. So right off the bat, the rest is just worthless opinion based on nothing.

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. For instance, I can say, "For every person that hit 30, there are 20 people that never hit 20 in the 35-40 hours of play." That isn't legitimate since I really have no clue about the numbers.

Everyone will quit GW2 in a week because you can level fast! HERP

Originally posted by colddog04

Your premise is that getting to 80 will make people quit. There is no evidence to back that up. So right off the bat, the rest is just worthless opinion based on nothing.

 

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. For instance, I can say, "For every person that hit 30, there are 20 people that never hit 20 in the 35-40 hours of play." That isn't legitimate since I really have no clue about the numbers.

 

Everyone will quit GW2 in a week because you can level fast! HERP

I think the figure of like 90-100 hours or so was mentioned by some, with dev remarks as that the leveling speed flattened from L30 onwards, and that a level would take 1.5 hour on average from that point.

So, you'll probably have powerlevelers who'll reach level cap within 4-5 days, but you'll always have those in any MMO.

The more interesting point of discussion will be, how will the gameplay be after the first 200 hours. How much is still interesting and entertaining at that point for the majority of GW players? Only time can really answer that question, I think, as for any MMORPG.

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by colddog04

Your premise is that getting to 80 will make people quit. There is no evidence to back that up. So right off the bat, the rest is just worthless opinion based on nothing.

 

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. For instance, I can say, "For every person that hit 30, there are 20 people that never hit 20 in the 35-40 hours of play." That isn't legitimate since I really have no clue about the numbers.

 

Everyone will quit GW2 in a week because you can level fast! HERP

I think the figure of like 90-100 hours or so was mentioned by some, with dev remarks as that the leveling speed flattened from L30 onwards, and that a level would take 1.5 hour on average from that point.

So, you'll probably have powerlevelers who'll reach level cap within 4-5 days, but you'll always have those in any MMO.

The more interesting point of discussion will be, how will the gameplay be after the first 200 hours. How much is still interesting and entertaining at that point for the majority of GW players? Only time can really answer that question, I think, as for any MMORPG.

Yeah, I agree. They seem to be basing their endgame around PvP and that should certainly keep a portion of people playing. I know that there is going to be that draw for me personally. I'm hoping they shore up some of the systems and clunkiness that I found in the beta.

PvE content will consist of dungeons and achievements it looks like. Perhaps they will have a few world bosses that are exceptionally hard for people to get together and take down.

In the end, what kept me playing WoW and EVE for so long was the PvP. I think that there is a strong place for a completionist type PvE player, but for the raider, this isn't really the right game.

Originally posted by cutthecrap

I think the figure of like 90-100 hours or so was mentioned by some, with dev remarks as that the leveling speed flattened from L30 onwards, and that a level would take 1.5 hour on average from that point.

So, you'll probably have powerlevelers who'll reach level cap within 4-5 days, but you'll always have those in any MMO.

The more interesting point of discussion will be, how will the gameplay be after the first 200 hours. How much is still interesting and entertaining at that point for the majority of GW players? Only time can really answer that question, I think, as for any MMORPG.

It seems like there is lot of fun beside leveling, but yah, in the end you cant know until you are 200 hours into "endgame" and if you still want to play it, thats it.

Guess WvWvW is their strongest card, hope they put a lot of work and dedication into it, so it is very strong at release, and not to have to wait 2-3 months until they "fix" it.

Originally posted by colddog04

Your premise is that getting to 80 will make people quit. There is no evidence to back that up. So right off the bat, the rest is just worthless opinion based on nothing.

 

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. For instance, I can say, "For every person that hit 30, there are 20 people that never hit 20 in the 35-40 hours of play." That isn't legitimate since I really have no clue about the numbers.

 

Everyone will quit GW2 in a week because you can level fast! HERP

I simply used it as a counter-argument since one of the primary arguments against TOR in this thread (and others)is how fast people seemed to get to max level.   They then go on  to say how GW2 will be different...you will play it forever, etc.  Well, if it took people (on average) 2x time to reach 50 in TOR (and people complain that is too little), but GW2 only takes .5x time, how is that longer playtime?   See? Makes no sense. 

Originally posted by grimal

I simply used it as a counter-argument since one of the primary arguments against TOR in this thread (and others)is how fast people seemed to get to max level.   They then go on  to say how GW2 will be different...you will play it forever, etc.  Well, if it took people (on average) 2x time to reach 50 in TOR (and people complain that is too little), but GW2 only takes .5x time, how is that longer playtime?   See? Makes no sense. 

Its matter of what theres is to play, and not how long it takes to max level.

What you sayin is that game without levels will be playrd for 0 time units because your..."max level" from the start?

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Dwarfman420

If you treat the game like Kotor 3 (prelude) w/ the option to party with others for access to group content then your good for a few months, then it's great.

If you expect a good mmo that will keep you locked in for 6+ months you will most likely be disappointed.

I lasted for 2 months.

Space combat is fun the first 10 times. That's it.

Your companion does all the "crafting" missions etc so it made it feel even more impersonal.

Shame they had to shut down SWG for this.

Honestly, how many MMOs can you play for longer than 6 months?  I've played quite a few and only encountered four that kept my interest for that long.

I played SWG, EQ2, WoW, and POTBS for more than 6 months, so same here.

But at the same time, we shouldn't be embracing the soft bigotry of low expectations, which is all a lot of TOR defenders do.  They act as if the MMO industry hasn't changed in 8 years, so they compare it to WoW at launch.  They say "well every other MMO most people leave before 6 months, so this is no different" as if that's something praiseworthy.

Me typically, when I play an MMO, I play for a long time.  Didn't even make it through the first month.

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by colddog04

Your premise is that getting to 80 will make people quit. There is no evidence to back that up. So right off the bat, the rest is just worthless opinion based on nothing.

 

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. For instance, I can say, "For every person that hit 30, there are 20 people that never hit 20 in the 35-40 hours of play." That isn't legitimate since I really have no clue about the numbers.

 

Everyone will quit GW2 in a week because you can level fast! HERP

I think the figure of like 90-100 hours or so was mentioned by some, with dev remarks as that the leveling speed flattened from L30 onwards, and that a level would take 1.5 hour on average from that point.

So, you'll probably have powerlevelers who'll reach level cap within 4-5 days, but you'll always have those in any MMO.

The more interesting point of discussion will be, how will the gameplay be after the first 200 hours. How much is still interesting and entertaining at that point for the majority of GW players? Only time can really answer that question, I think, as for any MMORPG.

It will depend on how balanced the pvp is.  If PvP is engaging and there's a reasonable chance people will have a shot, people will be playing that for a looooonnnnng time.  If the pvp is insanely borked, then people won't play it.

For the PvE side, if the dynamic events are fun, people will play it.  If there are incentives to go explore other quest lines of other races, they will play for awhile.  The raidtards might not like it, but honestly, too much emphasis on raiding kills MMO's.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by colddog04

Your premise is that getting to 80 will make people quit. There is no evidence to back that up. So right off the bat, the rest is just worthless opinion based on nothing.

 

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. For instance, I can say, "For every person that hit 30, there are 20 people that never hit 20 in the 35-40 hours of play." That isn't legitimate since I really have no clue about the numbers.

 

Everyone will quit GW2 in a week because you can level fast! HERP

I simply used it as a counter-argument since one of the primary arguments against TOR in this thread (and others)is how fast people seemed to get to max level.   They then go on  to say how GW2 will be different...you will play it forever, etc.  Well, if it took people (on average) 2x time to reach 50 in TOR (and people complain that is too little), but GW2 only takes .5x time, how is that longer playtime?   See? Makes no sense. 

No, you really didn't understand.  It was more once they hit max level and were done with their story quest...... there was nothing to do.  The ops weren't that engaging (up until recently some of them simply couildn't be played due to bugs), and the "hardmode" and "nightmare" gimmicks were just that, gimmicks.  It was the same raid, except now there was a timer!

With GW2, one could experience the dynamic events, and most importantly, take part in their WvWvW.  You could do the dungeons, explore other races pve content, etc.  Now will this work?  Who knows.  But it's a lot more than farming the instance for a daily quest, except now you do it on HARDMODE!!!!!!!

Originally posted by iceman00

No, you really didn't understand.  It was more once they hit max level and were done with their story quest...... there was nothing to do.  The ops weren't that engaging (up until recently some of them simply couildn't be played due to bugs), and the "hardmode" and "nightmare" gimmicks were just that, gimmicks.  It was the same raid, except now there was a timer!

With GW2, one could experience the dynamic events, and most importantly, take part in their WvWvW.  You could do the dungeons, explore other races pve content, etc.  Now will this work?  Who knows.  But it's a lot more than farming the instance for a daily quest, except now you do it on HARDMODE!!!!!!!

Raids were engaging as raids are. In the end they are same scripted ecncounters.

Adding more/harder raids/dailies, lowering the drop rates...wont do much, or make SWTOR endgame less stale.

Originally posted by iceman00

No, you really didn't understand.  It was more once they hit max level and were done with their story quest...... there was nothing to do.  The ops weren't that engaging (up until recently some of them simply couildn't be played due to bugs), and the "hardmode" and "nightmare" gimmicks were just that, gimmicks.  It was the same raid, except now there was a timer!

With GW2, one could experience the dynamic events, and most importantly, take part in their WvWvW.  You could do the dungeons, explore other races pve content, etc.  Now will this work?  Who knows.  But it's a lot more than farming the instance for a daily quest, except now you do it on HARDMODE!!!!!!!

End-game SWTOR, you can:

1) OPs/FPs

2) PVP Warzones

3) World PVP (in zones that allow it)

4) kill heroic bosses

5) Explore other races

6) Explore additional PVE content

End-game GW2:

1) DE

2) WvWvW

3) Dungeons

4) Explore other races

5) Explore additional PVE content

To me, it looks like you have the same amount of endgame choices per game.  A lot of people became quickly bored with TOR's content; who's to say that they wont with GW2 also?

Originally posted by grimal

End-game SWTOR, you can:

1) OPs/FPs

2) PVP Warzones

3) World PVP (in zones that allow it)

4) kill heroic bosses

5) Explore other races

6) Explore additional PVE content

 

End-game GW2:

1) DE

2) WvWvW

3) Dungeons

4) Explore other races

5) Explore additional PVE content

 

To me, it looks like you have the same amount of endgame choices per game.  A lot of people became quickly bored with TOR's content; who's to say that they wont with GW2 also?

A lot of complaints I saw was more frustration over people being able to find groups or enough players to complete the content. So whether things end up going the same for GW2 really boils down to ease of group functionality, community focus, and population levels. Which SWTOR failed miserably at.

Whether GW2 will succeed in this area remains to be seen. It wouldn't have solved everything but if BW would have focused on these areas more they would have a much better retention rate than I believe they currently are experiencing. The amount of people I ran into in that game that skipped heroics or fps simply because they couldn't find a group for them was stunning. Which is a hsame since that is a rather significant portion of the game.

SWTOR's ship has sailed concerning it being the big AAA MMO of the moment. With each new release there will be more miles put behind the launch and realization of what BW did wrong in this massive drama (pre-release hype, to beta, to launch). Regardless of how you feel about the game, it's 15 minutes are probably up.

Unless something really amazing were to happen, the window of opportunity has pretty much closed. It's downhill from here on out, which is pretty much normal.

In a side note on decline:

Another poster pointed out something really interesting, that SWTOR is a niche setting even for having used the SW IP. Some of the problems concerning atmosphere in SWTOR are linked with this because the creative license they took, due to the era, mostly resulted in leaving a bad taste in the mouths of the fans (see Endgame Consular Armor, or ships that look like refrigerators). After considering the art design, I think they shold have just went with a "technology has reached it's plateau and remains that way until GCW times" approach. Then things could have been more like the familiar things of the SW universe. 

In  some cases they kept the look the same, and others are changed so there doesn't seem to be continuity in the art design.

Originally posted by grimal

End-game SWTOR, you can:

1) OPs/FPs

2) PVP Warzones

3) World PVP (in zones that allow it)

4) kill heroic bosses

5) Explore other races

6) Explore additional PVE content

 

End-game GW2:

1) DE

2) WvWvW

3) Dungeons

4) Explore other races

5) Explore additional PVE content

 

To me, it looks like you have the same amount of endgame choices per game.  A lot of people became quickly bored with TOR's content; who's to say that they wont with GW2 also?

Im no fan of GW2.

But this comparison is rediculous.

1) OPs/FPs - Desite being the same as 4 and 6, are a complete joke. The idea of removing the gear treadmill via handing out absurd amounts of loot per kill is retarded and the mechanics while they seem somewhat decent are all buggy as hell and honestly offer no real challenge.

2) PVP Warzones - I'm not a pvper but, really? Just bad

3) World PVP (in zones that allow it) - Non-exsistant. PVP requires more than 1 person

4) kill heroic bosses - This should read kill bosses. Not a one is very heroic short of the cute must have push off to kill the final 5 man boss int he game.

5) Explore other races - What..... Roll new alts to experience 90% of the game again, the other 10% being a mediocre story (imo ofcourse)

6) Explore additional PVE content - DAILIES Weeeeee

I'm not trying to pick on you but SWTOR fails as an MMO so comparing its... stuff with another MMOish game is asinine.

The biggest difference between SWTOR and GW2 (and GW1) is not the content - about which one can argue ad nauseum. It is the pricing model: you don't have to subscribe to GW2. You can play it the month in which you buy it and in 6 months time you can re-install it and play it again.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

A lot of complaints I saw was more frustration over people being able to find groups or enough players to complete the content. So whether things end up going the same for GW2 really boils down to ease of group functionality, community focus, and population levels. Which SWTOR failed miserably at.

Whether GW2 will succeed in this area remains to be seen. It wouldn't have solved everything but if BW would have focused on these areas more they would have a much better retention rate than I believe they currently are experiencing. The amount of people I ran into in that game that skipped heroics or fps simply because they couldn't find a group for them was stunning. Which is a hsame since that is a rather significant portion of the game.

This x100.

Lack of endgame content or lack of ranked warzones is not what's wrong with SWTOR.

There are so many other issues which are killing this game: no group finder, complete lack of exploration, no alternative leveling zones, no raid-grouping for warzones, loading screens everywhere, travel time etc. The list could go on forever.

For every aspect of this game, whether it is PVE, PVP, crafting or whatever, Bioware was not able to remove specific design/technical "roadblocks" to make people fully enjoy the content.

If your in to Ops (raids) and PVP then end-game has just as much as wow ever did and still does.

With the added benefits of: leveling which isn't a pure grind and with voiced cutscenes, class story etc.  Crafting that's actually useful and end-game content which is challenging...

Why "too late" ?

Is there anything forcing you to play games only near their release ?

SWTOR even has outdated graphics even when it got released, so even that motivation isnt there.