I expect it to successfully combine a BioWare RPG with a modern MMO. That is what they set out to do and that is what I expect.

I don't expect much else.

Although that single expectation already comprises that there should be a high degree of persistance, of storytelling, that there should be ample opportunity to group and that there should be things like PvP present.

Furthermore, each of them should be meaningful in order to be successful.

Being a long time Bioware fan, my expectation has always been that this would be a great Bioware game. I also consider the original Knights of the Old Republic to be one of my very favorite single-player RPGs of all time... if not my absolute favorite.

I have only ever wanted this game to be true to the Bioware RPG tradition and to the KOTOR universe. From everything I have seen and read so far, it looks like it will be. None of my beloved Bioware games ever included anything akin to a space sim like Jump To Light Speed, so I really don't care that it is absent from the game. As long as they stay true to KOTOR and make the game fun, I will be a happy camper come 2011.

I think I will only really be disappointed if Bioware somehow manages to screw up their own tried and true formula...

  Looks like it will be pretty sweet. I do wish it was rated M with sexy chicks and gore but its cool. I never played SWG but from what my friends tell me about it I hope some elements make it into this game depth, crafting, housing, ect. 2011 is gona be hard for me with this Tera, GW2, Black Prophesy all lookin good. Still playin AOC but I need to limit myself to 2 subs so its gona be a hard choice.

I expect it to be a story heavy game and detailed since that is what Bioware does best i am sure it will be fun and i am glad that space combat is a mini game.  Some one else pointed out that all the iconic starwars moments were an on rails type of action sequence most noteable the destruction of the deathstar.  It is frusterating to me that any game that has starwars attached to it has to be drug down by the incessant whining of "SWG vets" that cant after this long get over it.  Its a new and different game with a different development team that has a reputation of making really good RPG's with great storys and gameplay.  If you expect anything less or different out of ToR  you are going to be sorely dissapointed.  In short stop crying about NGE and stop latching on to every starwars game and dragging it down with your emotional baggage.

Space combat seems to be a side issue taking on to much importance, and with out actually playing the game and rating the fun aspect of it, critiquing it seems like dissecting a frog with out the frog.

No matter what, you can't please everyone.  Initially I would have said "if you touch a known IP.." but now I realize it doesn't matter.

If it's a known IP, there will always be those "Han Shot First"ers who see it how they see it.  Lucas himself could write this game and there'd be loud complainers.  People whine, it's a fact.

However, even games with no known IP (CoH, EQ, etc), people develop expectation in a vacuum and then are irked when these imaginary terms aren't met.

In the end, Bioware should pick it's vision, stay true to that vision, and make the game they want.  Lots of people will buy and play it, some will complain, but cater to their target audience, their defined demographic, they'll be fine.

This game is pretty much a disappointment to me.   When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.  The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc.   The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters.  There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit.   I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard.  With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark.   Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.

Originally posted by Paragus1

This game is pretty much a disappointment to me.   When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.  The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc.   The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters.  There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again a new character, or you can quit.   I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard.  With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark.   Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.

But see , you are doing the same thing others are doing .. making assumptions. How do you know that there is no Content after the Story is over  ?!? Do you have some magic insight into the Game that the rest of us dont have ?!? People need to chill and stop assuming this and that. We know very little about the actual game and its full blown Content , so why go around throwing fiction ?!?

I`ll guarantee you this game will do well and will bring in loads of Bioware Fans that never even touched an MMO in their life. They will play it and they`ll love it.

Just like the People above , I expect a good Bioware RPG and nothing more.

Expectations for me usually lead to disapointment, I think to long and hard (thats what she said) about it.

I'm trying not to have high expectations, I do know Bioware never has disapointed me (although I didn't really get in to Dragon Age, like some).

Yea on rails is rather disapointing, I loved SWG space where I could park and sit, go where I wanted, or chill out in my Yacht 'club' with my friends.

As well as being the best Starfighter in the Galaxy, I hope to have that opportunity again in TOR.

I expect it to be a fun, lasting adventure. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Truthfully people need to chill out about this. This isnt a SWG and truthfully 50% think its gonna be...its not. Thank god its not SOE. Basically what they have here is instanced space combat which I think is a great idea. why? well lets look a SWG since everybody is expecting a SWTOR to be that game even though its made by different publishers SWG space combat was dull! dull as crap! and grinding in space was fricking lame to!  NOW! there just letting us hope in and blow up crap and maybe even pvp! instead of ok well I gotta grind on land but NOW i have to grind in space! with the care bear people around they wouldnt be happy. You will hope in break the grind and have tons of fun blowing up crap....its a great idea. Also its 2 different companys making the game...if u were making a game would u want it the same as that same game before you that failed? If you dont remeber back in the day with SWG the INCREDIBLE whining about space combat and blah blah blah. Truthfully with your article poeple are gonna start even whining even more about it BUT im sure everyone that is whinning about it will still play but they looked at this game with expectations that is gonna be SWG its not! they didnt even have to add space combat and if its that bother some just remove it. Personally i think everybodys expectations are getting little to high FOR what a company can do for example(everybody likes to compare SWG) swg didnt release space combat until the expansion came out then why ur expecting it now? i will repeat THIS ISNT SWG MADE BY SOE! THIS IS SWTOR BY BIOWARE! If SWG didnt exist i gurantee u guys wouldnt have a prob about the space combat. Think about it! :)

P.S. Chill out fan boys this is my thoughts and facts. Please dont attack my grammar and spelling im hungarian i can speak 3 languages. can u?

Well as a X-Wing, Tie-Fighter and SWG veteran I am disappointed too.  But after the disappointing StarTrek Online my expectations for all new mmos are very low.

Besides the space combat I have the feeling that SWG somehow spoiled me for all other mmos. Especialy the lack of crafting complexity and housing in most of them. I have the feeling the MMOs are all aiming very low. In Ultima and a few of the following mmos I realy had the feeling that they devs aim for a "living and breathing world" - for more then an ordinary solo RPG. But most of the new games just aim for beeing not much more then a (very bad) Diablo clone where you meet in a city instead of a chatroom. And even a lot of the gamejournalists don't expect much. I remember an interview with the SWTOR devs where someone ask if there are Badges like the ones in the Tie-Figther games or if this is asking for too much. In my opinion an mmo should always deliver much more then a solo game - I mean you pay the equivalent of a game all 3 months. 

Sometimes I realy have the feeling that the MMO marked is degrading, no wonder that no one beats WoW. Most times I read about mmos and expansions and then remember the resource gathering and crafting in SWG or how you could spend 20+h decorating a single house or the space combat and wonder if there will ever be such a game again.  When friends tell me how the enjoy the dances in WoW or playing with the auction house I always start to tell stories about how much better dancing and business where SWG ;)

well i went back and tried the swg 14 day trial and I have to sya they've cleaned the game up some. bugs are still there and graphics glitches but the whole open world is really still captivating and fun to explore.  I doubt biowares game is going to have the same feel.

Another whiny article about space combat?! COME ON!

Get over it and write some interesting stuff. I'm just about getting sick of all the whining and nagging on this particular subject. It's not important in this mmorpg. If you want to fly a ship, go play EVE. End of. SW:TOR is not a space flight game. It's not. NOT.

OKAY?! Ok.

Just a side comment on Bioware in general - if they pump out content as fast as they did with Dragon Age, they could save face. Now Dragon Age II is slated to launch in March of next year. They just might want to stick with the single player COPRG style like Guild Wars and pump out expansions to keep us wanting more.

Dunno what will happen, but just posting another what if..

you can speak 3 languages but can you type coherently in any of them up there?

This is actually kinda funny. I LOL'D hard when u said...  

When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.  The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc.

...this is why. I could see why you say that and in some ways ur right and many ways u are very wrong. Heres the thing all those games are mmorpgs and what are mmorpgs its a genre of game. so guess what?! HA! They are gonna be the same as in the way of a mmorpg! Just like i could say starcract is just like command and conquer and warcraft. whhhy??? because there both RTS. I can say CoD 1,2,3,4, Battlefield BC, BC2, Wolfteam, Crossfire etc are the same even though there different why??? cuz there both FPS!!! HA! So if u think that an mmorpg wont be like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc. then stop playing fricking mmorpgs if ur sick of playing the same thing or genre go play Starcraft or Dragon Age. Those are the worst assumptions ive seen truthfully and u know what ass- u- mptions do right??? :) and those statics? LOL what did u do pull it out of a hat? and the whole fail gameplay or u said its like WoWs im pretty sure that WoW is the most succesfull mmorpg out and has been people have been playing for years. fail? maybe in ur opnion

yes 1 of the 3 would be hungarian which is my native language so yes it would be much easier for me to type in that.

Originally posted by fallup11

If SWG didnt exist i gurantee u guys wouldnt have a prob about the space combat. Think about it! :)

 I still would have, due to Tie-Figther beeing a much better game then Rebel Assault ;)

You should of titled the article "Lowered Expectations"

bioware is king of single player rpg's, yes we know! and........ THIS ISNT A FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER RPG!

this is a mmorpg they are trying to create and all you blind bioware fanatics are just going around "i dont care about this or that, i just want a fun bioware game!"  well good job, cause thats what were gonna get.  a nice fun single player bioware rpg and you get the joy of paying for this fun single player game every month! oh and you can group with a few buddies too, if you have any. if your a wandering mmo vet like me all your oldschool mmo friends are all scattered out across the board.

i was hyped up out the ass when BW announced SWTOR.  and ive watched the downward spiral the entire time. from the interviews, videos, articles, every piece of media this game has released all ive seen is bland linear crap that ive been playing for the last 10 years.

I remember one of the first interviews about swtor the dude answering the questions stated they wanted to blend the world of linear and sandbox together in creating SWTOR. where the fuck is the sandbox part?!  sure as fuck aint in space, sure as fuck aint on systems. all ive seen is talk to guy, have long epic conversations, go kill mob, rinse repeat. 

a lot of us old time mmo'ers are explorers. we got into this genre because we were tired of console games putting us on a track from start to finish. we wanted the restrictions removed.  UO and EQ1 took off the rails.  You could wander anywhere anytime you wanted and do anything.  Players drove the world, and now gaming companies have successfully been mashing linear console gameplay into what is suppsed to be a vast open ended virtual world.

all you people and your sandbox is fuckin boring arguement can go take a flying leap. no, no it wasnt.  what makes it boring for you is you are so dependent on the producing company to hold your hand and pat you on the head regularly going GOOD BOY! YOU DID A QUEST! HERES SOME CANDY! that when a game comes out that gives you total freedom of choice your like DUR.....

and i was hoping with SWTOR that the sandbox elements they were supposedly implementing was gonna be the freedom of exploration. i mean its fuckin star wars for fucks sake.  An entire universe to see and experience.  And yeah, the space combat looks real fun, how can it not be? console games are real fun for a while, star fox.

but... this is supposed to be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game. and sometimes in star wars people went into space for other reasons then to "blow shit up".

bioware makes great single player games, they should of stayed where they belong. blizzard made great single player games too, but those games had a multiplayer element with them that taught them how to incorporate their style into the mmo world.

im gonna buy the game myself when it launches because im bored with the whole mmo scene. all the games are the same with a different name.  so ill settle with the fun bioware kotor sequel online because nothing I or any of you say will change the product were gonna get handed in 2011.

Originally posted by Dhraal

Originally posted by fallup11

If SWG didnt exist i gurantee u guys wouldnt have a prob about the space combat. Think about it! :)

 I still would have, due to Tie-Figther beeing a much better game then Rebel Assault ;)

 

i doubt it

Originally posted by Bunnyking

Another whiny article about space combat?! COME ON!

Get over it and write some interesting stuff. I'm just about getting sick of all the whining and nagging on this particular subject. It's not important in this mmorpg. If you want to fly a ship, go play EVE. End of. SW:TOR is not a space flight game. It's not. NOT.

OKAY?! Ok.

 

It is OK to admit you don't get it. ;)

But then this all speaks to something about SWTOR in particular.  It is like picking a Pope.  Lots of people with serious interest in what comes next.  Most all of them are dissapointed their specific view isn't run-up the flag poll and made the next big thing.

SWTOR is a Star Wars IP.  Some of us have lusted for a game we can't name or totally describe since the late 70s.  MMOs are quickly evolving into second lives for many gamers, and thus, we want that other life to be as cool as it can be.  No harm in that, no sin here.  Space combat is hand-and-foot the Star Wars universe.  There is one MMO with great space combat.  There wasn't any reason NOT to expect the same here, if not at launch, then later.  We may yet get something better than we are being given.  But history does not favor that.

This game is a cross-roads of many coming at it from different angles.  The SWG exiles waiting for a new home.  The Bio-bois who would accept anything Bioware pumps out, even if it were a bag of dung with the logo on it.  And there are the general MMO fans, WoWfugees, and Star Wars fans for whom this is a new adventure.

So we have a lot more folks that don't "get it" from any one of many points of view, than we see with most MMOs.

I wanted more from Space Combat, I will hope for better later, but not expect it.  It is still a great looking game, and though it WILL be flawed, until or unless is proves lousy, I'll look forward to it anyway.  Should be a fun adventure, even for the casual folks!

www.SonsOfNumenor.com/republic

Bottom line - when you strip the starwars theme , and Bioware name -

what is SWTOR having to show for ?

Positive:

1. Completely voiced content

2. CRPG style quests

3. Dialogue choices

Negative

1. Old fashion MMO combat

2. Toony graphic ( not in spirit of Star Wars for grown ups )

3. Heavy focus on soloing

4. Same (Named) companions following every player

5. Game uses the same principles behind single player RPGs having same story for each player

6. Space combat is singleplayer only

7. It feels like Bioware is trying to copy their single player game and slap multiplayer brand on it.

On the end negative heavily outweight the positive aspects.

And its hurting the game now, and it will hurt it in a long run.

Its also very obvious that SWTOR is nothing else but rehash of same ol' formula Bioware is pushing in all its recent games.

But this time they added possibility to play with friends. This does not feel like MMO. And in no way it feels like MMO 2011.

Bugger! I agree completely with the writer of this article so now I have nothing to critisize in it :(

Dont do that again please

I really don't understand how people can hate on this game so much.  I've been following this game alot, and especially recently, I've been stumbling on Leaked Beta footage of questing, and combat.  Looking up more videos from the recent Gamescom, and I have to say that the game is really shaping up nicely.  The fact alone that each time you re-roll an alt, the game is going to be COMPLETELY different, in and of itself if incredible enough.   As Paragus was complaining about "You'll maybe play through it twice".   You really need to do a little more investigating on the game before you make acinine assumptions like that.  There are other means of finding out info on the game other than this web-site, which doesn't really do a great job on that.

As far as I'm concerned, while playing WoW, I roll alts all the time, I just enjoy leveling a new toon to the cap.  In this game, everytime I do that, the game is going to be completely different, I get to be good or evil within my faction AND on top of that I get a choice on how to pick up a quest AND turn it in?!  Sign me up!  I know this because of watching some of the Beta on top of it being announced in their different Panels throughout the years.  And no, the captain of the ship will still be alive after you leave if you choose to kill him, but at least for my own personal storyline it'll seem as if my choice made an impact.  What else can you ask for from an MMO?  They have to have content intact for the next player to come across, but this game is the next best thing to a world that reacts to your decisions. 

So while all the haters are hating on the game,  I'll be enjoying the game for MYSELF and the group of friends/family that are going to be playing it.  One more side note:  if the Mass Effect Series has pulled me into it as incredibly as it did, then I can't imagine what this game will do since I'll be able to share it with friends and it'll be in the SW universe.  This was my expectation... for it to be as involved as ME but to have MMO stuff in it as well and experiencing it with friends.  And EVERYTHING I've seen has met my expectation.   So if you're a SWTOR hater, then just stay away from it.... far away.

Personally, I could care less if its a mini game so long as I'm not forced to take part. I've never much liked space combat simulators. The z axis majorly messes with my head and I can't seem to orient myself easily after. 

Its Star Wars, which is a major plus in my book. I love Star Wars and have since I was 5 years old. Its Bioware whom I consider the best game company on the planet.

But will it be good? I hope so. Honestly, I'm... worried. And not because of anything I've been shown in any of the video's or any info on the game thats been released. In fact, all thats been released looks good to me.

But here's the thing... I've played so many MMO's. I've beta'd a bunch. ALL of the ones I beta'd turned out to be a major disappointment to me. Though I really must say that LOTRO has so massively improved that its almost an entirely different game and I currently have an active account with them (unless I get a reply to all our concerns from the devs at EQ2, that account will end on the 27th).

One of my major MMO's that I was really looking forward to this year was Star Trek. I love it too, almost as much as I love Star Wars. And honestly, I beta'd it and was so massively disappointed that I honestly could not bring myself to buy the game, much less subscribe. In fact, I'd advise anyone against paying for that massive piece of garbage (long story as to why I hate it, and thats a separate topic so I won't address it here).

I WANT SWTOR to be good. Really really bad. Its Bioware. I don't think they'll blow it. Doesn't mean I'm right. I'm not looking for a replacement for SWG, just a good Star Wars universe that I can be a part of. Will it? I don't know. So I'm keeping my praise and my negativity in check and saying "I just don't know and we'll see". 

Great Expectations? No. I don't have those. Only fools have those in either direction. Lets just say.. I face it with trepidation and we'll leave it at that. I'm actually frightened that they will blow it like what happened to Star Trek.

Originally posted by EATtheDEAD

You should of titled the article "Lowered Expectations"

bioware is king of single player rpg's, yes we know! and........ THIS ISNT A FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER RPG!

this is a mmorpg they are trying to create and all you blind bioware fanatics are just going around "i dont care about this or that, i just want a fun bioware game!"  well good job, cause thats what were gonna get.  a nice fun single player bioware rpg and you get the joy of paying for this fun single player game every month! oh and you can group with a few buddies too, if you have any. if your a wandering mmo vet like me all your oldschool mmo friends are all scattered out across the board.

i was hyped up out the ass when BW announced SWTOR.  and ive watched the downward spiral the entire time. from the interviews, videos, articles, every piece of media this game has released all ive seen is bland linear crap that ive been playing for the last 10 years.

I remember one of the first interviews about swtor the dude answering the questions stated they wanted to blend the world of linear and sandbox together in creating SWTOR. where the fuck is the sandbox part?!  sure as fuck aint in space, sure as fuck aint on systems. all ive seen is talk to guy, have long epic conversations, go kill mob, rinse repeat. 

a lot of us old time mmo'ers are explorers. we got into this genre because we were tired of console games putting us on a track from start to finish. we wanted the restrictions removed.  UO and EQ1 took off the rails.  You could wander anywhere anytime you wanted and do anything.  Players drove the world, and now gaming companies have successfully been mashing linear console gameplay into what is suppsed to be a vast open ended virtual world.

all you people and your sandbox is fuckin boring arguement can go take a flying leap. no, no it wasnt.  what makes it boring for you is you are so dependent on the producing company to hold your hand and pat you on the head regularly going GOOD BOY! YOU DID A QUEST! HERES SOME CANDY! that when a game comes out that gives you total freedom of choice your like DUR.....

and i was hoping with SWTOR that the sandbox elements they were supposedly implementing was gonna be the freedom of exploration. i mean its fuckin star wars for fucks sake.  An entire universe to see and experience.  And yeah, the space combat looks real fun, how can it not be? console games are real fun for a while, star fox.

but... this is supposed to be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game. and sometimes in star wars people went into space for other reasons then to "blow shit up".

bioware makes great single player games, they should of stayed where they belong. blizzard made great single player games too, but those games had a multiplayer element with them that taught them how to incorporate their style into the mmo world.

im gonna buy the game myself when it launches because im bored with the whole mmo scene. all the games are the same with a different name.  so ill settle with the fun bioware kotor sequel online because nothing I or any of you say will change the product were gonna get handed in 2011.

 So....... this whole entire rant you just wasted your time on, only to then say, "I'm gonna buy it"..... WOW... just.......wow. 

The space combat does look like alot of fun, and adding it as either a mini game or not is no issue for me.

With the devs telling us the game is bigger than all of their previous titles put together, there really is going to be more content than you can shake a stick at.

I too played SWG from the start, I enjoyed it but loathed the sandbox element of the game and actually enjoyed the massive changes they made to the game.

I'm expecting a game with the atmosphere and quality that is inherent to Bioware games but in the setting, massiveness and open worldness of a MMO.

So far it seems they're on the right track.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Bottom line - when you strip the starwars theme , and Bioware name -

what is SWTOR having to show for ?

 

Positive:

1. Completely voiced content

2. CRPG style quests

3. Dialogue choices

 

Negative

1. Old fashion MMO combat

2. Toony graphic ( not in spirit of Star Wars for grown ups )

3. Heavy focus on soloing

4. Same (Named) companions following every player

5. Game uses the same principles behind single player RPGs having same story for each player

6. Space combat is singleplayer only

7. It feels like Bioware is trying to copy their single player game and slap multiplayer brand on it.

 

On the end negative heavily outweight the positive aspects.

And its hurting the game now, and it will hurt it in a long run.

 

Its also very obvious that SWTOR is nothing else but rehash of same ol' formula Bioware is pushing in all its recent games.

But this time they added possibility to play with friends. This does not feel like MMO. And in no way it feels like MMO 2011.

 

 

 

Your points are well taken and most likely true. But I have one question. How many million boxes do you think they will sell? I figure they will make most if not all of their money back on box sales alone.

As a SWG player since beta who lived through the entire NGE debockle before I eventually quit never to return, my expectattions are pretty low.  I am excited because I love Bioware but I expect LA to do a bit of content c**k blocking eventually just like they did to SOE.  Yes, there was a point when SWG was looking up.  That said, I am also disapponted in the space portion of the game thus far.  One of the best parts of Jump To Lightspeed was the vastness of the space zones and being able to just explore space for hours.  Also, did anyone else notice the lack of barrel rolls in the new video?  It looks like the space portion of Lego Star Wars with better skin. It looks fun for short time but too simple for an MMO.  I sure hope I turn out to be wrong.  The ground game looks pretty solid thoug.  If it turns out to be KOTOR with a little multplayer I think people will enjoy it for a while but eventually it will run it's course.

So far I like the stuff I have seen in the videos. But none of that matters until I play the game. Waiting for the free trial.

Oy, guys... stop using the "cartoony graphics" as an excuse. ALL MMO's have cartoony graphics by their very nature. Its just cartoons of different styles. 

As for a free trial, then you'll be waiting until at least 6 months after the game is released to try it. Free trials never exist when the game is created. They only start after the mad rush to join initially is over.

Originally posted by EATtheDEAD

You should of titled the article "Lowered Expectations"

bioware is king of single player rpg's, yes we know! and........ THIS ISNT A FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER RPG!

this is a mmorpg they are trying to create and all you blind bioware fanatics are just going around "i dont care about this or that, i just want a fun bioware game!"  well good job, cause thats what were gonna get.  a nice fun single player bioware rpg and you get the joy of paying for this fun single player game every month! oh and you can group with a few buddies too, if you have any. if your a wandering mmo vet like me all your oldschool mmo friends are all scattered out across the board.

i was hyped up out the ass when BW announced SWTOR.  and ive watched the downward spiral the entire time. from the interviews, videos, articles, every piece of media this game has released all ive seen is bland linear crap that ive been playing for the last 10 years.

I remember one of the first interviews about swtor the dude answering the questions stated they wanted to blend the world of linear and sandbox together in creating SWTOR. where the fuck is the sandbox part?!  sure as fuck aint in space, sure as fuck aint on systems. all ive seen is talk to guy, have long epic conversations, go kill mob, rinse repeat. 

a lot of us old time mmo'ers are explorers. we got into this genre because we were tired of console games putting us on a track from start to finish. we wanted the restrictions removed.  UO and EQ1 took off the rails.  You could wander anywhere anytime you wanted and do anything.  Players drove the world, and now gaming companies have successfully been mashing linear console gameplay into what is suppsed to be a vast open ended virtual world.

all you people and your sandbox is fuckin boring arguement can go take a flying leap. no, no it wasnt.  what makes it boring for you is you are so dependent on the producing company to hold your hand and pat you on the head regularly going GOOD BOY! YOU DID A QUEST! HERES SOME CANDY! that when a game comes out that gives you total freedom of choice your like DUR.....

and i was hoping with SWTOR that the sandbox elements they were supposedly implementing was gonna be the freedom of exploration. i mean its fuckin star wars for fucks sake.  An entire universe to see and experience.  And yeah, the space combat looks real fun, how can it not be? console games are real fun for a while, star fox.

but... this is supposed to be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game. and sometimes in star wars people went into space for other reasons then to "blow shit up".

bioware makes great single player games, they should of stayed where they belong. blizzard made great single player games too, but those games had a multiplayer element with them that taught them how to incorporate their style into the mmo world.

im gonna buy the game myself when it launches because im bored with the whole mmo scene. all the games are the same with a different name.  so ill settle with the fun bioware kotor sequel online because nothing I or any of you say will change the product were gonna get handed in 2011.

 

thats nice but ur making assumptions and alot of em. u could be right could be wrong.  but ur also expecting alot from an mmorpg genre. Apprently u dont know whats involved to make an mmorpg and thats why ur expecting so much. You still can explore and do whatever and in any mmorpg go get some exploration achivements done in WoW :) and TOR never said it would be a full sanbox so dont cry about it. Look at what makes the mmorpg genre and what u want. u actually want more of a fall out 3 try it out but that game has quest if u want a sand box go play Darkfall but that has quest to but i know of some that dont but then thats called grind which everyone hates. Look at one of the things thats makes an mmorpg...an xp bar and lvls how do u get lvls by filling up the xp bard with xp how do u get xp? by doing things that give u xp such as quest dungeons pvp achivements etc. even fricking CoD and BC2 has xp bar. Take away that bar and still have an mmorpg? havent been seen yet. Would the game ur talking about come out? maybe and i would like that game ur looking for but there isnt one. and from what i see not for a while Tera is supposed to be the next gen mmo but it has everything that makes an mmorpg quest grind xp baretc . but it also has alot of diff features like every other mmorpg trys to differ themselves different from the rest of the mmorpg genre. just like CoD and BF2 for FPS or Starcraft and C&C for RTS. All the games are the same cuz there all the same genre there all mmorpgs! Just like RTS and FPS have been the same for years and year and YEARS! yet we still play them but each one has a new idea and thats what evolves genres each genre has its own elements which makes the genre. u cant have a FPS without some sort of weapon. or u cant have a RTS without some sort of base. Do u understand what im trying to say here?

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Bottom line - when you strip the starwars theme , and Bioware name -

what is SWTOR having to show for ?

 

Positive:

1. Completely voiced content

2. CRPG style quests

3. Dialogue choices

 

Negative

1. Old fashion MMO combat

Old fashioned how?  Through there being no auto attack and having to plan out your skills, or is i because the combat is dynamically choreographed?  Doesn't sound old fashioned to me.

2. Toony graphic ( not in spirit of Star Wars for grown ups )

When was star wars for grown ups?  I see a bunch of muppets in every movie.

3. Heavy focus on soloing

And just as heavy of a focus on grouping.  Grouping from level 1, overarching group only quests, extra rewards for groups.  

4. Same (Named) companions following every player

But, every player has the option to use or not to use said companion.

5. Game uses the same principles behind single player RPGs having same story for each player

Whereas most MMOs rehash the same content for every class and race.  Every race and class story is exactly the same where BioWares story allows you to change your story at every turn.   Thats not even remotely close to any of the current MMOs out.

6. Space combat is singleplayer only

At this time, but they've already spoken at plans to expand it.  Who knows,  might even happen before Launch.

7. It feels like Bioware is trying to copy their single player game and slap multiplayer brand on it.

 That was the entire point,  to bring the level of polish of their single player titles to an MMO.  Fortunately for us, they aren't calling a single player game an MMO,  they are taking some of the best features of single player games and integrating them with an MMO.  

On the end negative heavily outweight the positive aspects.

And its hurting the game now, and it will hurt it in a long run.

 

Its also very obvious that SWTOR is nothing else but rehash of same ol' formula Bioware is pushing in all its recent games.

But this time they added possibility to play with friends. This does not feel like MMO. And in no way it feels like MMO 2011.

 

 

 

It doesn't FEEL like an MMO?  Even after all that time you spent playing it?  Oh,  no you didn't play it though,  so how could it FEEL like an MMO to you?  No matter what you say it "feels" like,  I'll just cut to the chase and let you know,  this game IS an MMO.  I hope that clears it up for you.

Originally posted by Comstrike

Originally posted by Bunnyking

Another whiny article about space combat?! COME ON!

Get over it and write some interesting stuff. I'm just about getting sick of all the whining and nagging on this particular subject. It's not important in this mmorpg. If you want to fly a ship, go play EVE. End of. SW:TOR is not a space flight game. It's not. NOT.

OKAY?! Ok.

 

It is OK to admit you don't get it. ;)

But then this all speaks to something about SWTOR in particular.  It is like picking a Pope.  Lots of people with serious interest in what comes next.  Most all of them are dissapointed their specific view isn't run-up the flag poll and made the next big thing.

SWTOR is a Star Wars IP.  Some of us have lusted for a game we can't name or totally describe since the late 70s.  MMOs are quickly evolving into second lives for many gamers, and thus, we want that other life to be as cool as it can be.  No harm in that, no sin here.  Space combat is hand-and-foot the Star Wars universe.  There is one MMO with great space combat.  There wasn't any reason NOT to expect the same here, if not at launch, then later.  We may yet get something better than we are being given.  But history does not favor that.

This game is a cross-roads of many coming at it from different angles.  The SWG exiles waiting for a new home.  The Bio-bois who would accept anything Bioware pumps out, even if it were a bag of dung with the logo on it.  And there are the general MMO fans, WoWfugees, and Star Wars fans for whom this is a new adventure.

So we have a lot more folks that don't "get it" from any one of many points of view, than we see with most MMOs.

I wanted more from Space Combat, I will hope for better later, but not expect it.  It is still a great looking game, and though it WILL be flawed, until or unless is proves lousy, I'll look forward to it anyway.  Should be a fun adventure, even for the casual folks!

www.SonsOfNumenor.com/republic

 

Well said on all points, Comstrike. +1.

What are my expectations for Star Wars: The Old Republic?

A fun, exceptionally polished game that focuses on Bioware's greatest strength: storytelling.

Do I really feel they are realistic?

Probably not, but it is what it is. I won't feel betrayed or outraged if it doesn't live up to expectations; they just won't get my money. It's really as simple as that.

How has the information revealed on the game up to this point affected those expectations?

I won't lie, not all, but a considerable amount of it hasn't been encouraging.

While I most certainly don't take issue with "stylized" art direction (I absolutely adore games like Team Fortress 2 and Borderlands), the initial videos and screenshots so far are underwhelming. They just strike me as flat and generic, with arbitrary proportions. (Though to be fair, many of the environments/landscapes look quite lush and appealing; it's mostly the character art I'm referring to.)

I might add that I can't help but levy significant blame here on the promotional Blur cinematics. Don't get me wrong; they're stunning to behold. It's just the chasm of disparity between them and the actual gameplay visuals contribute strongly to this feeling of "meh".

Then there's what little we know of the game's mechanics themselves.

Though I'm generally fine with classes, levels, and so forth… classes, levels, class-restricted races, tiered (and appearance altering) loot, yet-another rehash of the "holy trinity" system, and what appears to be a carry-over of the generic WoW UI, talent and skillbar setup (albeit with a Star Wars theme) is a bit much. Is ArenaNet the only developer (somewhat) trying to break new ground here?

I wasn't expecting UO, Eve Online or pre-CU SWG. It's neither a shock nor necessarily a disappointment so much of the game resembles the 11-million subscriber, 800lb gorilla in the room. But really… four of the (meager) eight classes are Jedi… two of which appear to be little more than heal-bots? Bounty Hunters and Smugglers are faction exclusive? Really? Would a third, more morally-nebulous faction be too much to ask?

I guess what I'm driving at here is I'm still hoping (perhaps in vain) that these long-in-the-tooth MMO tropes take a backseat to the meat and potatoes of the game; that they're merely a means to an end, rather than the end itself. God help me if a typical login experience revolves around grinding to get a new cool helmet or the Lucas-inspired version of Fireball 3. Yawn.

Originally posted by Philby

 

Your points are well taken and most likely true. But I have one question. How many million boxes do you think they will sell? I figure they will make most if not all of their money back on box sales alone.

I expect the game to sell around 1.5 mil copies in first month. After that its up to one thing only - how much content there is in the game.

This is the only thing that will make or break this game.

Since its not true MMO - but heavily quest based rpg. Once you run out of quests the game is more or less over.

Judging from such heavy focus on production, voice overs, story. Its almost impossible there will be real big number of quest all together.

I expect that hardcore mmo player will burn trough the game in month time. And than find there is nothing more to do.

And than the problems for swtor will start

Starwars graphics are garbage

Rift or Tera for the win

Originally posted by MacAllen

...If it's a known IP, there will always be those "Han Shot First"ers who see it how they see it.  Lucas himself could write this game and there'd be loud complainers.  People whine, it's a fact.

I resemble that!

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Bottom line - when you strip the starwars theme , and Bioware name -

what is SWTOR having to show for ?

 

7. It feels like Bioware is trying to copy their single player game and slap multiplayer brand on it.

 

 

Its also very obvious that SWTOR is nothing else but rehash of same ol' formula Bioware is pushing in all its recent games.

But this time they added possibility to play with friends. This does not feel like MMO. And in no way it feels like MMO 2011.

 

 

Allot of good points in your post.

But this has been said allot about this game and others out there recently. But what gets me is what are you talking about. What is an MMO?

Quick break down is Massively Multiplayer Online game. So another words many people on one server playing a game. It doesnt suggest you have to interact with each other if that is what you are getting at. It just states you are playing a game in which many people share the same enviornment.

Now does the game sound like most of it can be soloed pretty much all the way through? Maybe, but I still think its to early to tell. Either way, you can group with your friends to do the solo content if you want more interaction. Plus its been said you get better rewards for doing so.

MMO play styles are what you make it to be. To group or not to group.

I try to expect nothing so what I'm served will be palatable.  Those of us who are old enough, or have done the dew diligence to understand the amount of dissapointment in almost (there are exceptions) all Star Wars media should know what I mean by this:

The stranglehold on the franshise has kept the Star Wars a lot of people (me included) want from maturing, and I guess I expect that strangulation to show up again in this incarnation. So expecting it to be a chocolate cake that I also get to eat is beyond my abilities at this point. I only hope that the cake doesn't taste like shit.

My expectations for this title are great to say the least but my reasoning in all honesty does nothing for the fact that many of the "naysayers" may be right about certain things as far as TOR is concerned.

If the fact that the entire game may exist on many levels on rails you may not like it but I for one still play console games with "on rail" stories that guide my character to a specific point in time.  With an mmo how long that takes you is up to you and in theory we have to assume the game has to have some type of appeal past the story and Bioware has to know this.  Maybe I could be wrong but I doubt they would make a mistake so great as to assume that there is no point in having a robust world that entertains the community outside of the quest line.

I consider myself a part of the mmo community because I think it's like a club that once your in your in I've tried to get friends to play and if they don't make it past the first weekend or so they never try again and of course there are those who once they try and get into a game will never say "no".  There are legions out there I think and that is often why I say the hardcore mmo community is simply out of touch with the fact that everyday gamers are the "mass market" of mmo's if they want to grow beyond the 400k-500k range which with the money they are spending they need to.  I often hear the phrase that "a game doesn't begin until end game" and I have never believed it because for me I have paid attention to all the quests and the lore and the history if available.

I played WOW for a few years and I quit after TBC but I think the real reason I quit was because I had reached the point where the game was no longer about "the world" the conflict between the factions it was just about grinding to get phat lewt and raiding for this thing or that.

I've played LOTRO for maybe two years now and one of the things that have helped me last is I enjoy the "experience" of the story, I enjoy the journey, no I don't always read the quests over again but I still "live" that characters life and travel that characters "path" which is not necessarily the same as the last three alts I took through it.

My expectations as far as TOR though is that they will produce a game that will give me the same feeling I got when I tried WOW for the first time and that is that mmo's have finally caught up to the rest of the video game industry.  The graphics might not be my favorite of any game but I know they will be of the highest quality I know the world will be vivid and rich and I know if they follow suit and simply do what they said that sticks out in my mind which was "this game is going to have more content than all of our other games combined" then I will be satisfied and I will be able to play it for years as I did Baldurs gate series and KOTOR.

I think Bioware are capable enough that if people don't go into the game with a closed mind they would be surprised by how good they do on capturing every aspect of mmo's in addition to adding the story element to the game world that many expected AOC to deliver on.

Originally posted by Paragus1

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.

No offense brother, but if they deliver on all of that alone, they'll have already (far) exceeded what every other MMO has failed to accomplish before.

Not to sound like I'm trolling or like an apologist, but the main jibe of your beef seems to be "will this game offer infinite content?" Frankly, short of repetitive, obsessive-compulsive laden grinding and/or a glorified chat-room interface, no game has been able to offer that so far. You may want to reel in your expectations a scooch.

I really think that those of you who can't get over the space combat issue just need to swallow your pride and go back to SWG. It really is the best you are going to get in the foreseeable future and no amount of whining is going to change that. Bioware is NOT going to change their game to appease a small vocal minority when the majority of their fans don't really care about space combat... I mean when are you guys going to give up!?

If the only Star Wars MMO that will make you happy is one with sandbox features and a more fleshed-out space combat, there is only one place for you to go. The game is still running and most of the old beloved features are still there. Stop complaining, suck up your pride and please go back to SWG for the love of God... I know SOE could certainly use your subscription money at this point.

As for expectations, I think you guys have only yourselves to blame. Everyone who is truly familiar with Bioware knows what to expect from their games. They all have a very similar formula and feel. Anyone expecting Bioware (of all people) to suddenly decide to make a sandbox game was only setting themselves up for disappointment.

I have a bad feeling about this, i can't really say what it is but its and mixture of salvador dali and waterworld,Dali fantatic pictures, small details, work of art, and on the other side (waterworld) ones your seen it you will never buy that ticket again.

Iv lost my faith in MMO, sooo meny bad ones and here i am again trying too grasp the sand in my hand as it slowly disolvs into the thin air, hopeing for something greater.

Status quo

Originally posted by EATtheDEAD

bioware is king of single player rpg's, yes we know! and........ THIS ISNT A FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER RPG!

Be that as it may, and I'm only speaking for myself… but it's precisely all the standard (aka: cliche) MMORPG trappings (aka: crap) that's lowering my expectations.

Frankly, I'd rather a strong, OPTIONALLY cooperative/competitive, single-player RPG where the focus is storytelling in the Star Wars universe, first and foremost.

Yet-another UO or EQ1 clone (albeit with a $150 million budget's worth of polish) that just happens to be skinned in a (pseudo) Star Wars theme ain't cutting the mustard. To put it simply, and again speaking only for myself, the MMO genre is well past the point of feeling "played out". Raph Koster, Brad McQuaid and Richard Garriott are dead to me.

I appreciate that is most likely an unpopular opinion given this forum, but I'm sick of militant, self-appointed MMO purists demanding the industry cater to their overblown (and frequently contradictory) sense of nostalgia.

I just want an exceptionally fun Star Wars game I can play with my friends. If that doesn't quite measure up to popular opinion of what the oh-so-sacred MMORPG acronym is 'supposed' to mean, then as far as I'm concerned… it's probably for the best.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

...Next,  if you weren't expecting JTLS,  and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie,  but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter,  what exactly are we expecting here?

To be able to turn my ship around, or stop altogether if it strikes my fancy? I'd dare even ask for the option of an alternative cockpit view, though that might be asking too much?

Originally posted by rmazin

...Also, did anyone else notice the lack of barrel rolls in the new video?

Definitely needs moar barrel rolls, Peppy.

Originally posted by Paragus1

This game is pretty much a disappointment to me.   When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.  The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc.   The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters.  There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit.   I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard.  With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark.   Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.

So it is a dissapointment to you. Who died and made you king anyways?

Oh I remember, you annointed yourself with that title when you tried selling this MMO site on Darkfall. How did that work out for ya anyways? Those 10 or 20k subs sure dont impress me. Oh well, you did your best shilling that game....dont blame yourself.

The story aspect alone will be worth the box purchase of TOR I do believe. The 8 story-lines are supposed to have more content than all previous BW games combined. Couple in the fact that MAYBE BW gets the MMO portion right, and how can you go wrong with your money? If this game sells less than 2M boxes the first couple of months I will really be suprised.

I think what it boils down to is both jealousy and fear. If this themepark game does well, you can kiss sandboxes good -bye by mainstream publishers. If this game had been directed towards sandboxers, they would be BW's biggest fans as evidenced by the SWG vet forums on this site. Until BW announced an action laden game, those folks were all high on getting the PRECioUs back.

I look forward to TOR, and I hope every sandbox fan flaming this game stays away. Dont care to see BS(this is read DF/SWG/whatever sandbox is better than TOR) in  general chat.

Originally posted by Paragus1

...  When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing. 

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit. ...

I think this sums up the core of the problem.

1. Lore never sells long term subscriptions alone.

2. Voice acting and cutscenes were never the driving force behind long term MMO play.

With the EA hype behind it, I see massively quiters after 1 month playing sessions.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

...Next,  if you weren't expecting JTLS,  and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie,  but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter,  what exactly are we expecting here?

To be able to turn my ship around, or stop altogether if it strikes my fancy? I'd dare even ask for the option of an alternative cockpit view, though that might be asking too much?

Thats an acceptable answer, turn your ship around, so that you could, dogfight?  Stop the ship so that you could hang out in the battle zone?   

I'm not being facetious here, understand I  know the reasons for wanting the ability to free roam,  but I don't think its absolutely necessary,  I think what is necessary is focus.  If they want to focus on the action and they can deliver on that focus with the system at hand,  and provide some fun in the meantime,  I don't know why I would complain.  If they can do the same thing later with PvP or free roaming, I'm okay with that too.  

I just don't believe people passing judgment on this because its not the exact same space combat as their favorite Star Wars game.  They say it doesn't have to be like these games,  but yet, they still hold it to the standards of these games.   I'm afraid that you just won't be able to win with some people,  and it appears those people are vindictive about it.

Originally posted by KingKong007

Originally posted by Paragus1

...  When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing. 

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit. ...

I think this sums up the core of the problem.

1. Lore never sells long term subscriptions alone.

2. Voice acting and cutscenes were never the driving force behind long term MMO play.

With the EA hype behind it, I see massively quiters after 1 month playing sessions.

Then its obvious you know very little about what this game offers if all you think it has is lore and voice acting and cutscenes....

Originally posted by alextodo

Originally posted by Paragus1

This game is pretty much a disappointment to me.   When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.  The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc.   The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters.  There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again a new character, or you can quit.   I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard.  With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark.   Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.

But see , you are doing the same thing others are doing .. making assumptions. How do you know that there is no Content after the Story is over  ?!? Do you have some magic insight into the Game that the rest of us dont have ?!? People need to chill and stop assuming this and that. We know very little about the actual game and its full blown Content , so why go around throwing fiction ?!?

I`ll guarantee you this game will do well and will bring in loads of Bioware Fans that never even touched an MMO in their life. They will play it and they`ll love it.

Just like the People above , I expect a good Bioware RPG and nothing more.

 

I totally agree. People with unrealistic expectations or the types that will never be happy with whatever comes out continue to pick apart and make unfounded assumptions based on the small grains of info that has been released. I for one continue to stay optimistic, can't wait for this game to come out, and have faith in Bioware based on the quality of what they continue to offer despite this being their first MMO.

As far as this article goes, I think its ridiculous. Any thing that Bioware adds is a plus. The sum most likely will be greater than its parts.

Well, Mike, I'm also a SWG vet who prefers my SW IP in the sandbox variety. I was hopeful that was the direction Bioware/EA were going to take the game but it was very clear very early on (crafting comments by Vogel and Walton which I pointed out various times and, well, looks like I was right) that this was not to be.

So you ask what are my expectations? Well, I have none. I'm not interested in playing what they have put together. That's not the SW universe I envision being a part of. Fortunately I have another new game to choose that will be out before TOR as well.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

...Next,  if you weren't expecting JTLS,  and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie,  but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter,  what exactly are we expecting here?

To be able to turn my ship around, or stop altogether if it strikes my fancy? I'd dare even ask for the option of an alternative cockpit view, though that might be asking too much?

Thats an acceptable answer, turn your ship around, so that you could, dogfight?  Stop the ship so that you could hang out in the battle zone?  

Pretty much. Unless you're under the impression that dogfighting should be exclusively white-knuckled barreling in a fixed trajectory tunnel at full throttle from a third-person perspective.

I've said as much in another thread but perhaps it bears repeating here:

The trailer looks absolutely gorgeous and by all appearances the gameplay seems quite accessible and fun (both are very, very good things worthy of high praise). It just strikes me as a bit shallow—not quite as shallow as the original KotOR's turret play minigame, but I suspect the novelty of a constrained railshooter will start wearing thin fairly quickly for those of us hoping for a smidgen more depth.

As far as free roaming goes, personally I'm not asking to venture off into the vast void of empty space and leave all the cinematic-focused goodness behind me… I'd just like the ability to turn around (if for no other reason, to get a second look at some eye-candy I might have missed), and maybe watch the splendor from my cockpit view (strategically tweaking my power/shield settings and/or flying/fighting with a buddy on top of that would just be icing on the cake).

Absolutely necessary? Not by even the greatest stretch of imagination. But would it rekindle fond childhood memories and get this 40-something manchild even more giddy about a video game than age and maturity should allow? You bet your ass.

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

I'm going to start by saying I think this was one of Mikes better written articles, especially over the past few articles he's released.  

 

Now, I've got to ask,  why do people think that this type of gameplay cannot be expanded later on.  I've got to pose this specifically to Mike, as it appear he has founded his opinion on something -- maybe inside information -- or something that I do not know.   As BioWare has already mentioned,  they plan on adding PvP, and more multiplayer capabilities,  so this leads me to ask the question on how this is possible with a "run of the mill" rail shooter.

 

Next,  if you weren't expecting JTLS,  and you weren't expecting X-Wing vs Tie,  but you wanted more then a Rail Shooter,  what exactly are we expecting here?  Pay very close attention to the gameplay you are looking at when you watch that video.  What do you actually see?  You see astroids being nearly missed,  you see lasers flying by,  and you see very fast paced gameplay indicative of a cinematic style experience. The gameplay captures specifically the excitement of star wars space combat.  This isn't something that was prevalent in JTLS, even in all its glory.  Sure you'd have some great missions,  incoming fighters here and there,  but there would also be times where you would be flying for many minutes without anything happening at all.  

 

To that, I feel BioWare is directing this gameplay to accentuate the good areas like the action oriented combat while taking out the lengthy, time consuming, boring parts.  

 

I'll bite. I think I've explained this in the previous articles, but wisdom would suggest developers wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater in order to implement something else entirely later on. Now you might say, well they'll add more features to this, etc etc. Yes, they have already said they will expand on the feature by allowing for group play and perhaps even PvP missions post-launch, but the problem is with the base design of being a rail shooter. You can layer all you want on it but in the end its still a rail shooter.  It's like riding in the passenger seat of a car, you may see all the sights, hear all the sounds, and feel the wind blowing through your hair with the window open, but you're not in control of the ride.

What I am looking for, personally? The basic freedom to fly around and explore space would have been a fine start (and of course blow things up!). The actual combat gameplay and depth could be as simple as Star Wars: Battlefront (i.e. fire lasers, fire missiles) or as complicated as JTL, but I was personally looking to be able to you know, control my own ship, have a variety of ships, and perhaps customize them (not a single ship per class, though this can certainly be expanded on, it shouldn't be tied to class in the first place), and gameplay that is within the spirit of an MMO game (there's nothing massively multiplayer about this feature), at the very least.

Basically, I'd like to see the basic elements of a "sim" like XvT or JTL, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have the same depth to be satisfactory. I don't need to be able to customize and reverse engineer ship components or design droid programs and reroute energy systems for it to have been sufficient, though that isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate something a bit more ambitious.

Adventures across the stars and on the ground are equally important to me, and while many gamers may or may not care about the presence of space gameplay in SWTOR, no one should be dismissing those who do, and this was part of what i was trying to get at in this week's column. All gamers who are fans of SW:TOR and are looking forward to this game have certain expectations for it and while our expectations may vary greatly, we shouldn't be insensitive and dismiss or attack each other. This topic has understandably been quite divisve but it highlights a larger underlying issue, which is that the discourse has really devolved into noise, a situation that doesn't help anyone's cause.

Now, apply this toward all other facets of the game (crafting, housing, etc.).

I'd have no problem at all buying TOR if it didn't have a monthly fee and require an internet connection. For me personally if you are going to have a monthly fee,  require internet connection, call yourself an MMO AND carry the SW IP, you got to bring more than this.

Originally posted by MikeB

...What I am looking for, personally? The basic freedom to fly around and explore space would have been a fine start (and of course blow things up!). The actual combat gameplay and depth could be as simple as Star Wars: Battlefront (i.e. fire lasers, fire missiles) or as complicated as JTL, but I was personally looking to be able to you know, control my own ship, have a variety of ships, and perhaps customize them (not a single ship per class, though this can certainly be expanded on, it shouldn't be tied to class in the first place), and gameplay that is within the spirit of an MMO game (there's nothing massively multiplayer about this feature), at the very least.

Basically, I'd like to see the basic elements of a "sim" like XvT or JTL, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have the same depth to be satisfactory. I don't need to be able to customize and reverse engineer ship components or design droid programs and reroute energy systems for it to have been sufficient, though that isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate something a bit more ambitious.

Something akin to the Battle of Endor sequence from Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader would have exceeded my expectations. (And for those not in the know… that was a Nintendo Gamecube title for goodness sakes—not exactly a free-roaming, space-sim powerhouse.)

Originally posted by EATtheDEAD

You should of titled the article "Lowered Expectations"

bioware is king of single player rpg's, yes we know! and........ THIS ISNT A FUCKING SINGLE PLAYER RPG!

I remember one of the first interviews about swtor the dude answering the questions stated they wanted to blend the world of linear and sandbox together in creating SWTOR. where the fuck is the sandbox part?!  sure as fuck aint in space, sure as fuck aint on systems. all ive seen is talk to guy, have long epic conversations, go kill mob, rinse repeat. 

 

 A interview today with Drew Karpyshyn said you dont need to do the storylines at all...if you choose to you can skip all of it. He said you can roam around on planets and level your character just by going out and gaining experience. Gives me the impression I'm not stuck running from point A to point B over and over following a storyline. There will be exploration and a bit more freedom than everyone thinks.

Originally posted by mojitomojo

Space combat seems to be a side issue taking on to much importance, and with out actually playing the game and rating the fun aspect of it, critiquing it seems like dissecting a frog with out the frog.

 

 I couldn't say it better...

If there is someone who wants nice spacefights with "open space", go and play EVE.

SW:ToR will be an MMORPG where your character is the main part and the ship + spacecombat is just side action - which sounds realistic because it would be a bit weird to destroy a ship in space and "loot" a lightsaber for example or to destroy a consortship and get an agility point for your character... just weird.

Now it seems that spacecombat will be a nice "mini-game" and that you receice upgrade for you ship - sounds cool and logical!

just my 2 cents...

Again with the engine and mini game already created how hard would it be to shift that into all out space warfare probably not to darn much. I think it's an awesome diverson from in game and I cant wait to play it. Also it looks amazing! I still think a future expansion with spacewarfare down the road wouldnt be to far fetched look what Blizzard is doing.

Originally posted by painbreaker

If there is someone who wants the best space-themed spreadsheet application this side of the galaxy, go and play EVE.

Fixed it for you.

My concern is that Bioware is really good at writing single player rpg games with great storylines, but they have never done a MMO.  What I have not seen to this point is an end game.  Even Blizzard had an end game.  While raiding might not have been everyone's cup of tea, there was still something to do in Wow once you ran through the levels.

The arcade type space design did not sit well with me either.  I am honestly not very good at arcade games hence, my questioning the inclusion of such in this game when they could have waited and introduced something later that was a bit more sophisticated.

Yeah personally I would have preferred a game that was based on skills, not levels and restricted character classes, but that is not a game breaker for me.  A good theme park game can be fun and I expect this game will be fun, at least initially as Bioware is always good at storyline.

I am still waiting to see what kind of end game Bioware comes up with.  That is what will make or break this game.  You have to have a reason for people to keep playing.  Most of these big MMO's as of late have started out with huge initial box sales which tapered off drastically when the content for end game was weak or non existent.  I just hope that Bioware does not fall into this category with this game.

Far as I am concerned Lotro was the last successful MMO released.   Every game since has struggled and even Lotro is going to a different payment model to attract more players.  I am looking for reasons why all the excitement for this Bioware game and as of yet I do not see many.    So far it looks like most of the other recent releases, lots of fun content initially, which many will rush through, and then not much to do after.  How can you really get excited about that prospect?

Hopefully Bioware will prove me wrong and have content that will keep everyone interested.

Originally posted by Dhraal

Well as a X-Wing, Tie-Fighter and SWG veteran I am disappointed too.  But after the disappointing StarTrek Online my expectations for all new mmos are very low.

Besides the space combat I have the feeling that SWG somehow spoiled me for all other mmos. Especialy the lack of crafting complexity and housing in most of them. I have the feeling the MMOs are all aiming very low. In Ultima and a few of the following mmos I realy had the feeling that they devs aim for a "living and breathing world" - for more then an ordinary solo RPG. But most of the new games just aim for beeing not much more then a (very bad) Diablo clone where you meet in a city instead of a chatroom. And even a lot of the gamejournalists don't expect much. I remember an interview with the SWTOR devs where someone ask if there are Badges like the ones in the Tie-Figther games or if this is asking for too much. In my opinion an mmo should always deliver much more then a solo game - I mean you pay the equivalent of a game all 3 months. 

Sometimes I realy have the feeling that the MMO marked is degrading, no wonder that no one beats WoW. Most times I read about mmos and expansions and then remember the resource gathering and crafting in SWG or how you could spend 20+h decorating a single house or the space combat and wonder if there will ever be such a game again.  When friends tell me how the enjoy the dances in WoW or playing with the auction house I always start to tell stories about how much better dancing and business where SWG ;)

this dude nailed it. so f.true swg were way ahead of time, robust everything. hell you could organize a concert, with own music (dancers and musicians could compose notes) and advertize it by walking droids, wandering around the town. Sure you had to have some batteries crafter, droids needed power and you could make it happen in a player owned cantina and collect money from tickets lol. Since swg there was never ever a half of a depth and freedom swg had.

 

I wanted to add that I'm pretty happy with what I've seen about TOR, regardless of my disappointment regarding space combat, or the space experience in general. Part of that has to do with the developers, Bioware, and how highly I regard them. Another large portion of the disappointment stems from their hefty budget, and leads me to consider that if these guys can't do it, with the amount of money they have, it will probably remain out of reach until the genre is democratized. Really, it's not even about wanting two full games from the day of launch, or being an SWG vet, for me particularly; they don't even apply. It's about expecting more from the people who are developing these games, because without us there saying, "You can do better," they're going to produce exactly what's necessary to get by (like the footage of a space minigame, or considerably familiar MMO combat).

All this griping over speculation is ridiculous. It's like judging the beauty of a phone sex operator. Or griping about the taste of a photograph of a steak. Can we all just get off the internet until the game comes out?

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

I expect it to successfully combine a BioWare RPG with a modern MMO. That is what they set out to do and that is what I expect.

I don't expect much else.

 This is my expectation as well.  If you take something like WoW, make it Star Wars, and add Bioware's wonderful RPG elements, you already have a winning MMO in my opinion.  The people who cry and rock back and forth and complain every time they hear a new detail because it isn't EXACTLY what THEY wanted sound to me more and more like just a bunch of whiners.

Also, I wasn't expecting space combat from an MMO that is already this ambitious, so it is an added bonus.  No matter how big the game is or how awesome it turns out, it will never be enough for some people.

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

U must not know MUCH!! EVE is the worse Space MMO EVER PD.!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who uses EvE as a IF u want space go to EVE. If u play MMO's which I have Played over 18 and Have 3+ Subs going at all times I would like everyone to Not talk about something u Don't know nothing about. If u played EvE then cool talk about it. BUT BUT!!!!!!!! I HAVE NEVER HEARD ONE PERSON OUT OF THE 75% SW:ToR Community forums that don't like the Space want a auto pilot seeing as everyone wants to fly there ship. In EVE u can't fly your own ship DUH. So why would anyone want to go play EVE HUH! We don't want to be Pushed forward we want to move ourself. U ONLY CAN MOVE LEFT,RIGHT,SHOOT LASER,AND SHOOT MISSILES. WOW THAT IS EPIC. Don't get me wrong I love all BW stuff since before they was Named Bioware Back when I had to play on a Tandy. So pls if u don't know what your talking about don't add it to your post. Its like ppl who watch the Vid and like SWEET that is great. I hope when we fly around the Capital ships they do this. READ THE MAG or go buy the mag 1ST if u didn't. ( but u must have if u are that much of a fan) Now u Read the Mag, Now go and Read all the Hands on. Yes BW have let a few ppl Try Space and they Posted everything about the Engine and what u can and can't do. Then come back and Edit or repost with some Knowledge. Now I still play KotOR been on the KotOR Forums since 1996 waiting for KotOR 3 to hit and when they came out with we are making a ToR MMO I was LIKE WOOT!! A never Ending KotOR can't bet it and I beleave i was right. This game is going to be Epic and Space Vid shows how Epic the Fill is. The Space really Fills like a Epic Space Battle  and when they Change it to a SW:BF2 type space combat it will be Epic. At least take it off the rail and quit pushing u forward. This is going to be my Last and Only Sub after it comes out. I will save a ton of money hehe. Sadly I got to Buy DCU and play it till ToR comes out. hehe
 

I can only fully agree to this great and thoughtful article, Mr Bitten has written here. Well said!

The articles of the last few weeks have all been of great quality and show me that MMORPG.com is one again a site for good thoughts to follow and articles to read. I felt about it all the same way, being an SWG vet who also has made some sort of peace with the past, but still is unfluenced by it.

Well said, OP.

2006 not 1996 hehe thats when I Grad. hehe

There was a lot of flashy noise, but I didn't really get any impression of what the gameplay was.

The constant releases of videos, etc throughout the development has long been setting off my "too much hype" warning alarms.  On the other hand, I know it exists, which is more than I can say about 90% of the games being released right now.

I had the same expectations you did.  It's very unfortunate that Bioware took the cheap and easy route and relegated space combat to vastly inferior gameplay to even Halo: Reach.  It's enough to give me second thoughts on purchasing the title.  What other element of the game have they dumbed down in the name of time/money/"accessibility"?

I agree with u 1000% in everything u Wrote. I would have Gladly waited 2+ years for a Real Space Combat Exp. I would have also waited for a SW:BF space Combat. Wing Commander Space would have work and I got to say I'm not a game dev. but I couldn't think it would have been that much more to add Then this worthless Space. I beleave they did shoot there self in the foot,they could have really picked up the sub's if they would have add a real space Fill. I'm also like u and don't see them change space after Ship date. They done said about adding on to this mess. It is just sad to see Fan Bo who didn't read tha mag or even looked at any of the Hands on reviews,But can tell everyone that it is fine the way it is. I was expecting them to come out and say space will only be a few Missions till a expansion ,not this. I also agree with this isn't going to kill me because I'm a die hard SW fan and KotOR fan. So I will enjoy every min of it come March 2011.

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Thought so.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Thought so.

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Thought so.

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

Haven't heard that one before.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Thought so.

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

Haven't heard that one before.

Do you honestly think that I care whether you believe me or not? Like I said, you'll find out eventually either way.

Good luck!

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Thought so.

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

whatever.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

You'll see when you play it.

Thought so.

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

Haven't heard that one before.

Do you honestly think that I care whether you believe me or not? Like I said, you'll find out eventually either way.

Good luck!

How many times have you replied? Apparently you care :)

Originally posted by Kriosis

 

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

Well I think that depends on what you're looking at, in feature list, graphics as well as theme, no it doesn't look exactly like WOW.

However, if you're looking at the big picture, it sounds an awful lot like WOW, at least to me. Does that mean it won't have it's own unique aspects? No.

It does have the same focus it seems, huge names behind it, big popular companies first MMO, accessibility and a huge I.P. As well as, theme-park (EQ-lite) design and attempting to feed both the casual and hardcore player.

It has all the makings of another WOW, which means the devs will take the safest route possible as well as polish the hell out of it.

Why is this a bad thing is my question?

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

Originally posted by fallup11

Truthfully people need to chill out about this. This isnt a SWG and truthfully 50% think its gonna be...its not. Thank god its not SOE. Basically what they have here is instanced space combat which I think is a great idea. why? well lets look a SWG since everybody is expecting a SWTOR to be that game even though its made by different publishers SWG space combat was dull! dull as crap! and grinding in space was fricking lame to!  NOW! there just letting us hope in and blow up crap and maybe even pvp! instead of ok well I gotta grind on land but NOW i have to grind in space! with the care bear people around they wouldnt be happy. You will hope in break the grind and have tons of fun blowing up crap....its a great idea. Also its 2 different companys making the game...if u were making a game would u want it the same as that same game before you that failed? If you dont remeber back in the day with SWG the INCREDIBLE whining about space combat and blah blah blah. Truthfully with your article poeple are gonna start even whining even more about it BUT im sure everyone that is whinning about it will still play but they looked at this game with expectations that is gonna be SWG its not! they didnt even have to add space combat and if its that bother some just remove it. Personally i think everybodys expectations are getting little to high FOR what a company can do for example(everybody likes to compare SWG) swg didnt release space combat until the expansion came out then why ur expecting it now? i will repeat THIS ISNT SWG MADE BY SOE! THIS IS SWTOR BY BIOWARE! If SWG didnt exist i gurantee u guys wouldnt have a prob about the space combat. Think about it! :)

P.S. Chill out fan boys this is my thoughts and facts. Please dont attack my grammar and spelling im hungarian i can speak 3 languages. can u?

 

 I agree with this post 100%

I am a 5 year SWG vet ,,,yes I played after the NGE ... as usualy  this original article is someone here at MMORPG laying there opinion out there with intent to sway. ( how I end up back here is beyond me )  I get it you guys are dissapointed with SWTOR ... maybe thats a good thing because this site was all about STO and we see how that went huh >>??

I personally am totally suprised and happy with space combat ... like said before this is SWTOR follow up to KOTOR 1 and 2 ..... and this is Bioware ....

If you want SWG and JTL ... SOE has it waiting for you ...go play on Starsider there are lots of peeps there to play alongside ..

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

 

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

Well I think that depends on what you're looking at, in feature list, graphics as well as theme, no it doesn't look exactly like WOW.

However, if you're looking at the big picture, it sounds an awful lot like WOW, at least to me. Does that mean it won't have it's own unique aspects? No.

It does have the same focus it seems, huge names behind it, big popular companies first MMO, accessibility and a huge I.P. As well as, theme-park (EQ-lite) design and attempting to feed both the casual and hardcore player.

It has all the makings of another WOW, which means the devs will take the safest route possible as well as polish the hell out of it.

Why is this a bad thing is my question?

Never said it was a bad thing, let me quote myself

"This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.".

I think you basically described an average way to design a themepark MMO, not necessarily WoW. We need to see the mechanics of this game in every way possible. SWTOR will have arena, battlegrounds and raids, only thing I can see it being close to resembling WoW. Forget loot, loot is in a lot of games.  I won't know for sure if it's entirely different, in the middle or completely like WoW until I actually try it, so...when he says it's what he expects, was curious as to why he expects it or how so far it resembles WoW.

Originally posted by heartless

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I've seen many leaked vidoes read most of the articles seen some screen shots both released and leaked, I know a guy who says he's in the beta, don't buy it. Yeah can't say I see much of a resemblence unless WoW is the only game/MMO you've played.

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

1st off i love bioware games . Mass Effect, Dragon Age, KOTOR etc

and for anyone one who has never played an MMO i am absolutly 100% sure they will love it

I really do wish Bioware the best of luck with this their 1st MMO and hope they bring millions of new players into the genre

However, anyone who has been playing MMO's for a  few years or more will soon get bored of this latest WOW clone. there NOTHING innovative or new here and all us old vets are burned out on this favored MMO style

fuly voiced quests were done by AOC (ok only first 20 levels) ask anyone who has played it, after the first couple of quests you still skip the blurb and just read the quest log txt as that is quicker and gets you back out into the action quicker

Sorry but all my hopes for this game are dwindling fast with every new piece of information learned

Oh well looks like i'm gona be pinning my hopes on Guild Wars 2 next year (which actually has some innovation to it) and  then Darkfall 2010 when it finally gets introduced in 2012 or whenever Aventurine eventually get round to it!

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I've seen many leaked vidoes read most of the articles seen some screen shots both released and leaked, I know a guy who says he's in the beta, don't buy it. Yeah can't say I see much of a resemblence unless WoW is the only game/MMO you've played.

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

Until you actually play the game, you won't know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I've seen many leaked vidoes read most of the articles seen some screen shots both released and leaked, I know a guy who says he's in the beta, don't buy it. Yeah can't say I see much of a resemblence unless WoW is the only game/MMO you've played.

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

Until you actually play the game, you won't know what I'm talking about.

I said KNOWN information, you wouldn't be breaking the NDA. But whatever, I'll let you think I think you're in game testing.

Grats on game testing! :D

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I've seen many leaked vidoes read most of the articles seen some screen shots both released and leaked, I know a guy who says he's in the beta, don't buy it. Yeah can't say I see much of a resemblence unless WoW is the only game/MMO you've played.

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

Until you actually play the game, you won't know what I'm talking about.

I said KNOWN information, you wouldn't be breaking the NDA. But whatever, I'll let you think I think you're in game testing.

Grats on game testing! :D

I'm not in testing anymore. My one consolation is the simple fact that I, being one of those nasty haters, got to play your game before you.

How messed up is that, right? I mean, here you are, trying to do PR on BioWare's behalf and those bastages are not appreciative of your efforts. Sorry bro.

I am in the Bioware camp. I was looking for a BW RPG becoming a MMO and this will be it. So I am happy with what has been presented so far. There is a lot of good info out there and most of it makes me think this will be a very good MMO that I can play for a long time.

As far as space combat. I am ok with what this mini game will be. It will represent what we have seen from the movies that we can experience for our-selves. It will be a fun side game to mess with and possibly even be a e-sports game with leader boards and so on.

But I do agree with the freedom aspect. I want some freedom in an MMO. It is expected to be there. From what I have read, there will be a lot of freedom on each planet. I have no worries about that, but I would like to see a bit more in space. We will have the galaxy map like in ME to travel with it looks like. So we will just see a cinematic space flight to and from each planet or hotspot. It would be nice to at least fly a bit in space. But a space expansion could happen in the future.

Originally posted by heartless

 

I'm not in testing anymore. My one consolation is the simple fact that I, being one of those nasty haters, got to play your game before you.

How messed up is that, right? I mean, here you are, trying to do PR on BioWare's behalf and those bastages are not appreciative of your efforts. Sorry bro.

OKay, with that out of the way. How about at least giving us a hint at what you mean when you say it's exactly like wow.

Combat mechanics? Questing system? You feel everything theme-park is wow?

Do you dislike theme-park designs? There's a lot more to add than it's exactly like WOW, that you could say that wouldn't break any rules including an NDA. Too many factors can influence such an opinion, it's imposible to guess where that influence is coming from.

Go play KOTOR 1

You have then played a very early beta of this game.

Originally posted by heartless

I'm not in testing anymore. My one consolation is the simple fact that I, being one of those nasty haters, got to play your game before you.

How messed up is that, right? I mean, here you are, trying to do PR on BioWare's behalf and those bastages are not appreciative of your efforts. Sorry bro.

Wonder how long it takes for a liar to believe his own lies

Double post....my bad.

Originally posted by Xero_Chance

Go play KOTOR 1

You have then played a very early beta of this game.

minus the whole pausing of the game to pick moves...yes exactly like kotor :P

Originally posted by miagisan

Originally posted by Xero_Chance

Go play KOTOR 1

You have then played a very early beta of this game.

minus the whole pausing of the game to pick moves...yes exactly like kotor :P

Well that's a step above what I'm expecting, so I'll be happy with that. I'm prone to expect the worst possible scenario. Therefor I'm rarely disappointed.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by miagisan

Originally posted by Xero_Chance

Go play KOTOR 1

You have then played a very early beta of this game.

minus the whole pausing of the game to pick moves...yes exactly like kotor :P

Well that's a step above what I'm expecting, so I'll be happy with that. I'm prone to expect the worst possible scenario. Therefor I'm rarely disappointed.

Probably the best stance you could have on any game.

Originally posted by heartless

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Ahaha, I see now...you seen some random leaked screenshots and came to the idea you could fool people by saying you're in testing, that's not a bad idea. Nice try though, can't say you was close to success, but you tried.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

 

Okay, lets see, Battlegrounds: EQ 2

Raids: EQ1 and 2, Anarchy online

BoE and BoP items: yeah again EQ 1 and 2 as well as anarchy online

Yeah i can see how thats unique to WoW and not just general things to almost every MMO....

I have no grip with you but pretty much everything in WoW has indeed been done somewhere either near that time or before it.  My point is that if it's an MMo it's gonna have these things it's part of it being an MMo, every department store has a mens and womens section, that doesn't make the store bland that just makes it a department store.

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

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Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

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You'll see when you play it.

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Thought so.

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It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

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Haven't heard that one before.

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Do you honestly think that I care whether you believe me or not? Like I said, you'll find out eventually either way.
Good luck!

---

Of course you care what we think. You have over 2000 posts on this forum and went to all the trouble of stealing some spiffy signature from someone. We're the hot air in your balloon sonny.

And we don't believe you. Mainly because there's videos out there of TOR gameplay (leaked from manly men who aren't hiding under the NDA skirt) which clearly show TOR as an open world MMO. To top it off TOR has almost no loading screens.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Ahaha, I see now...you seen some random leaked screenshots and came to the idea you could fool people by saying you're in testing, that's not a bad idea. Nice try though, can't say you was close to success, but you tried.

If that makes you feel better, believe what you want. But I still played the game before you. lol

Not only that. I've also submitted my feedback to BioWare... Imagine the damage I could potentially cause?

I missed one, sorry, Species assigned to certain professions. As this wasn't clarified whether this is crafting or classes i'm gonna guess classes.

EQ1 only allowed certain race class combinations, not every race could be a shaman and iksars couldn't be paladins.

Originally posted by whilan

Originally posted by Kriosis

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

 

Okay, lets see, Battlegrounds: EQ 2

Raids: EQ1 and 2, Anarchy online

BoE and BoP items: yeah again EQ 1 and 2 as well as anarchy online

Yeah i can see how thats unique to WoW and not just general things to almost every MMO....

I have no grip with you but pretty much everything in WoW has indeed been done somewhere either near that time or before it.  My point is that if it's an MMo it's gonna have these things it's part of it being an MMo, every department store has a mens and womens section, that doesn't make the store bland that just makes it a department store.

These are resemblences, not anything unique to WoW. Actually I'm glad you said something, but the term WoW clone will continue to be used, : /

Originally posted by heartless

If that makes you feel better, believe what you want. But I still played the game before you. lol

Not only that. I've also submitted my feedback to BioWare... Imagine the damage I could potentially cause?

This is getting cute.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Ha, if you had played the game, you wouldn't have even tested a quarter of the things you just mentioned.  Thats called being "untruthful", which you are.  Instances?  Where? In the flashpoints?  I don't even need to break NDA to tell you that the world is completely open, and the world is immense.  I don't need to go into telling you that the flashpoints are seamless and you pass through them without a hint of lag.  I don't need to tell you that each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works, or that there is no Auto Attack,  and I don't need to tell you any of that because not only is that NOT breaching the NDA and is prevalent on the DEMOs,  but its also very much so the truth.  I also know by far that you've never played a RAID,  you've never tried a battleground, and that you don't know thing 1 about to what extent the gear selection stage is at or how that effects end game content at all.

And I know all this for a fact.  On a side note,  whats your name on the SWTOR forums.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

 Well, I prefer TOR style combat over gw2, from what I seen in todays live stream of the charr. Just looked to me like a big player with flashy animations going in and taking out multiple enemies with ease. NPCs all looked pretty stupid, as in they just stand around and pretty much do as expected and set themselves up to be killed... At least in TOR the npc have sense enough to take cover.

Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

 

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

---

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

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Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

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You'll see when you play it.

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Thought so.

---

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

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Haven't heard that one before.

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Do you honestly think that I care whether you believe me or not? Like I said, you'll find out eventually either way.
Good luck!

---

Of course you care what we think. You have over 2000 posts on this forum and went to all the trouble of stealing some spiffy signature from someone. We're the hot air in your balloon sonny.

And we don't believe you. Mainly because there's videos out there of TOR gameplay (leaked from manly men who aren't hiding under the NDA skirt) which clearly show TOR as an open world MMO. To top it off TOR has almost no loading screens.

Over 2000 posts over 6 years since I've been a member.

WoW is an open world MMO also, what's your point?

Yeah, i know it will, thats what i don't like, an MMO is no longer just an MMO now it's either a WoW clone, or it's not.  We can't see past this title and we really need to.  We need to see beyond the structure of the game and see if the game itself is any good.

I'm still holding out to see what this game is like, i'm very interested at the moment.

To Heartless: i doubt that cause the game is under NDA, if what you say is true your violating a contract you signed with Bioware, or your friend is, i'm lost cause it seems to be going both ways.  Either way until a product is released information that is not public knowledge that is released before a games release date is a breach of that contract.  I should know having to signed that contract every time i return to work after a month or two.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Ha, if you had played the game, you wouldn't have even tested a quarter of the things you just mentioned.  Thats called being full of it, which you are.  Instances?  Where? In the flashpoints?  I don't even need to break NDA to tell you that the world is completely open, and the world is immense.  I don't need to go into telling you that the flashpoints are seamless and you pass through them without a hint of lag.  I don't need to tell you that each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works, or that there is no Auto Attack,  and I don't need to tell you any of that because not only is that NOT breaching the NDA and is prevalent on the DEMOs,  but its also very much so the truth.  I also know by far that you've never played a RAID,  you've never tried a battleground, and that you don't know thing 1 about to what extent the gear selection stage is at or how that effects end game content at all.

 

And I know all this for a fact.  On a side note,  whats your name on the SWTOR forums.

The skill levels he talked about were priceless. That was leaked some time ago, a series of pictures showing all kinds of skills including the levels of the skills you can purchase. Out of everything he mentioned this was the only thing he could have possibly tested, and it was leaked, the rest was just ranting on his part.

Also be sure to check the join date on his name, if he doesn't hand you random forum user claiming it as himself.

I only play bioware for the story. I hate all bioware games base on gamplay.

With that being said, Bioware deserve to make RPG games with great story only(Cant wait for Dragon Age 2).MMorpg, so many aspect will be missed.

The story is there, voice are there, but during story and voice, are you still in the players world or you are in your own corner with a Bot companion that i heard about or simply with few players while excluding the whole player base?

Age of conan, lvl 1 to 20 with voice and animated story made for one player was great, but once you leave tortage, all this is over. You start playing with the AOC community no matter what you do.

Fact is, you read faster then you hear them speak. Its an mmorpg, they have to keep it massive between the player and the whole community.

Originally posted by sungodra

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

 Well, I prefer TOR style combat over gw2, from what I seen in todays live stream of the charr. Just looked to me like a big player with flashy animations going in and taking out multiple enemies with ease. NPCs all looked pretty stupid, as in they just stand around and pretty much do as expected and set themselves up to be killed... At least in TOR the npc have sense enough to take cover.

You have to keep in mind that the charr combat was a developer using an extremely high level character with "cheats" enabled.

Originally posted by heartless

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Combat - Well, they aren't trying to break the mode there as far as I know so not really an issue.

Instances - other games do have instances you know.

Quest Driven - other games are quest driven

gear oriented - other games had a heavy reliance on gear before wow

Raids - other games had raids before wow

battlegrounds - well, DAoC had areas where people could battle but I doubt they were specifically battlegrounds. did wow pioneer the battleground? Don't know. But they are not the only game to use battle grounds.

Stylized cartoony graphics - possbibly. I do think they planned to have a more stylized approach so the game would age well and run on more machines.

dumb downed game play - well, that is a matter of opinion. You would (and might have?) have to define "smart" game play to at least give a point of reference.

I'm not sure many mmo's have "smart" game play.

I think players need to look at what SWToR is trying to do differently instead of creating what they think it should be doing and then making the comparison. The game is not wow but then again it is being made to capture a large audience. I imagine they are very conscious of the fact that they might attract a large casual audience. Certianly with the amount of money they are spending they will want/need to capture a large audience.

Originally posted by heartless

WoW is an open world MMO also

Gonna add that to your list of similarities?

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero
 

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

---

Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

---

Originally posted by Kriosis

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Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

---

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

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You'll see when you play it.

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Thought so.

---

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

---

Haven't heard that one before.

---

Do you honestly think that I care whether you believe me or not? Like I said, you'll find out eventually either way.
Good luck!

---

Of course you care what we think. You have over 2000 posts on this forum and went to all the trouble of stealing some spiffy signature from someone. We're the hot air in your balloon sonny.
And we don't believe you. Mainly because there's videos out there of TOR gameplay (leaked from manly men who aren't hiding under the NDA skirt) which clearly show TOR as an open world MMO. To top it off TOR has almost no loading screens.

---

Over 2000 posts over 6 years since I've been a member.
WoW is an open world MMO also, what's your point?

---

WoW is a single player RPG? Well shiver me timbers! I've been doing it wrong! Were I still playing that game I'd log in right now and tell my guildmates they were all figments of your imagination.

RPG company+EA release. 'nuff said.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Ha, if you had played the game, you wouldn't have even tested a quarter of the things you just mentioned.  Thats called being "untruthful", which you are.  Instances?  Where? In the flashpoints?  I don't even need to break NDA to tell you that the world is completely open, and the world is immense.  I don't need to go into telling you that the flashpoints are seamless and you pass through them without a hint of lag.  I don't need to tell you that each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works, or that there is no Auto Attack,  and I don't need to tell you any of that because not only is that NOT breaching the NDA and is prevalent on the DEMOs,  but its also very much so the truth.  I also know by far that you've never played a RAID,  you've never tried a battleground, and that you don't know thing 1 about to what extent the gear selection stage is at or how that effects end game content at all.

 

And I know all this for a fact.  On a side note,  whats your name on the SWTOR forums.

If you read carefully, I never mentioned that the things I listed were the things I tested. I deliberately went out of my way to just talk about the information everyone knows so far.

There is a reason I said: "I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA."

You don't need to tell me any of those things but my point is that TOR is similar to WoW. WoW, for the most part, has a seamless world and each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works. The fact that there is a missing Auto Attack is a minor difference in the overall swing of things.

I'm sure you don't care about anyones opinion but first off you didn't follow directions when the mod tells you to bring it back on topic.

Second this game is more like every MMO out there, not just one specific one, If we can get to that point i think we will all be better off.  Most MMos now a days have seamless worlds. Other then the art direction and classes this is more akin to Fallen earth then any other game.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Ha, if you had played the game, you wouldn't have even tested a quarter of the things you just mentioned.  Thats called being "untruthful", which you are.  Instances?  Where? In the flashpoints?  I don't even need to break NDA to tell you that the world is completely open, and the world is immense.  I don't need to go into telling you that the flashpoints are seamless and you pass through them without a hint of lag.  I don't need to tell you that each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works, or that there is no Auto Attack,  and I don't need to tell you any of that because not only is that NOT breaching the NDA and is prevalent on the DEMOs,  but its also very much so the truth.  I also know by far that you've never played a RAID,  you've never tried a battleground, and that you don't know thing 1 about to what extent the gear selection stage is at or how that effects end game content at all.

 

And I know all this for a fact.  On a side note,  whats your name on the SWTOR forums.

If you read carefully, I never mentioned that the things I listed were the things I tested. I deliberately went out of my way to just talk about the information everyone knows so far.

There is a reason I said: "I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA."

You don't need to tell me any of those things but my point is that TOR is similar to WoW. WoW, for the most part, has a seamless world and each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works. The fact that there is a missing Auto Attack is a minor difference in the overall swing of things.

Its much more then a missing Auto Attack, if you had read my post,  and the class mechanic is entirely the "overall swing of things" .  I also see that you skipped the last question,  but its okay,  your credibility has dropped like a rock, you should have just stuck with opinions instead of trying to prove something by saying "You'll see" and citing an NDA breach.

Back on topic now, after that short stint of lunacy,

I just posted another interview this time with Daniel Erickson.  This was a much longer and more involved interview then James Ohlens,  and a good portion of it was on space combat.  Again he confirmed their focus,  but I wanted to point out as I did in another thread,  no one has asked a single question about expanding the space combat into free roam,  if it will be an option,  or if there are even plans to have PvP before launch.  I think there are quite a few missed opportunities here for the community to show some very vocal interest.

Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

 

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero
 

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Originally posted by heartless

---

Originally posted by Kriosis

---

Originally posted by heartless

---

Originally posted by Kriosis

---

Originally posted by heartless

---

Originally posted by Kriosis

---

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

---

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

---

You'll see when you play it.

---

Thought so.

---

It's the best I can do without breaking the NDA.

---

Haven't heard that one before.

---

Do you honestly think that I care whether you believe me or not? Like I said, you'll find out eventually either way.
Good luck!

---

Of course you care what we think. You have over 2000 posts on this forum and went to all the trouble of stealing some spiffy signature from someone. We're the hot air in your balloon sonny.
And we don't believe you. Mainly because there's videos out there of TOR gameplay (leaked from manly men who aren't hiding under the NDA skirt) which clearly show TOR as an open world MMO. To top it off TOR has almost no loading screens.

---

Over 2000 posts over 6 years since I've been a member.
WoW is an open world MMO also, what's your point?

---

WoW is a single player RPG? Well shiver me timbers! I've been doing it wrong! Were I still playing that game I'd log in right now and tell my guildmates they were all figments of your imagination.

I don't know where you got all of that from but I believe that you need to settle down. You're obviously in an highly confrontational mood and all we are doing is discussing a video game.

BTW, I resent that remark about my sig. I've used it for a long time and while I did not draw the armor guy, I did make the sig. The armor guy was created by sillynd on CGSociety.org.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.

Ha, if you had played the game, you wouldn't have even tested a quarter of the things you just mentioned.  Thats called being "untruthful", which you are.  Instances?  Where? In the flashpoints?  I don't even need to break NDA to tell you that the world is completely open, and the world is immense.  I don't need to go into telling you that the flashpoints are seamless and you pass through them without a hint of lag.  I don't need to tell you that each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works, or that there is no Auto Attack,  and I don't need to tell you any of that because not only is that NOT breaching the NDA and is prevalent on the DEMOs,  but its also very much so the truth.  I also know by far that you've never played a RAID,  you've never tried a battleground, and that you don't know thing 1 about to what extent the gear selection stage is at or how that effects end game content at all.

 

And I know all this for a fact.  On a side note,  whats your name on the SWTOR forums.

If you read carefully, I never mentioned that the things I listed were the things I tested. I deliberately went out of my way to just talk about the information everyone knows so far.

There is a reason I said: "I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA."

You don't need to tell me any of those things but my point is that TOR is similar to WoW. WoW, for the most part, has a seamless world and each class has a specific drive that powers the way each skill works. The fact that there is a missing Auto Attack is a minor difference in the overall swing of things.

Its much more then a missing Auto Attack, if you had read my post,  and the class mechanic is entirely the "overall swing of things" .  I also see that you skipped the last question,  but its okay,  your credibility has dropped like a rock, you should have just stuck with opinions instead of trying to prove something by saying "You'll see" and citing an NDA breach.

 

Back on topic now, after that short stint of lunacy,

 

I just posted another interview this time with Daniel Erickson.  This was a much longer and more involved interview then James Ohlens,  and a good portion of it was on space combat.  Again he confirmed their focus,  but I wanted to point out as I did in another thread,  no one has asked a single question about expanding the space combat into free roam,  if it will be an option,  or if there are even plans to have PvP before launch.  I think there are quite a few missed opportunities here for the community to show some very vocal interest.

I've lost credibility because I won't disclose my user name on TOR's forums? lol ok boss.

Originally posted by heartless

Its much more then a missing Auto Attack, if you had read my post,  and the class mechanic is entirely the "overall swing of things" .  I also see that you skipped the last question,  but its okay,  your credibility has dropped like a rock, you should have just stuck with opinions instead of trying to prove something by saying "You'll see" and citing an NDA breach.

 

Back on topic now, after that short stint of lunacy,

 

I just posted another interview this time with Daniel Erickson.  This was a much longer and more involved interview then James Ohlens,  and a good portion of it was on space combat.  Again he confirmed their focus,  but I wanted to point out as I did in another thread,  no one has asked a single question about expanding the space combat into free roam,  if it will be an option,  or if there are even plans to have PvP before launch.  I think there are quite a few missed opportunities here for the community to show some very vocal interest.

I've lost credibility because I won't disclose my user name on TOR's forums? lol ok boss.

The fact that you dismissed a number of my points, actual facts of the game, have no proof that you're even a member of the TOR forums (my username is Deksam btw) and comment on features without any claims to back up said comments, most of which, you can't, because even the regular gameplay demos can easily prove that if ANYTHING the flow of combat is very different if you actually watch and dissect it, really knocks your credibility.  I expected more of an actual conversation from a veteran of this site instead of baseless arguments,  but 30 minutes on DarthHater to see their in depth breakdown of the features would really do wonders for your case -- or lack thereof.

Originally posted by artemisentr4

This interview with Erickson from Gamescon talks a bit about what makes TOR different. As well as a bit more on space combat and the reasons why they went the way they did. If anyone is enterested.

 

http://gamescom.gamespot.com/video/6273952/

 

Space combat may not be all optional and it could be a way to earn xp along with battlegrounds giving you xp as well.

I noticed that as well,  I wonder if space combat will be less optional for certain classes.  I would expect the smuggler to have a number of space missions that others may not encounter.  

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by artemisentr4

This interview with Erickson from Gamescon talks a bit about what makes TOR different. As well as a bit more on space combat and the reasons why they went the way they did. If anyone is enterested.

 

http://gamescom.gamespot.com/video/6273952/

 

Space combat may not be all optional and it could be a way to earn xp along with battlegrounds giving you xp as well.

I noticed that as well,  I wonder if space combat will be less optional for certain classes.  I would expect the smuggler to have a number of space missions that others may not encounter.  

 It did sound like it was a posiblity for class quest lines. So I would also think that the smuggler would be the class to have space combat as part of the story arc. Other classes could have protection quests or chase quests for space. Just to introduce the space combat to players as a tutorial. Then each player could chose to continue the space combat or not do it at all.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Its much more then a missing Auto Attack, if you had read my post,  and the class mechanic is entirely the "overall swing of things" .  I also see that you skipped the last question,  but its okay,  your credibility has dropped like a rock, you should have just stuck with opinions instead of trying to prove something by saying "You'll see" and citing an NDA breach.

 

Back on topic now, after that short stint of lunacy,

 

I just posted another interview this time with Daniel Erickson.  This was a much longer and more involved interview then James Ohlens,  and a good portion of it was on space combat.  Again he confirmed their focus,  but I wanted to point out as I did in another thread,  no one has asked a single question about expanding the space combat into free roam,  if it will be an option,  or if there are even plans to have PvP before launch.  I think there are quite a few missed opportunities here for the community to show some very vocal interest.

I've lost credibility because I won't disclose my user name on TOR's forums? lol ok boss.

The fact that you dismissed a number of my points, actual facts of the game, have no proof that you're even a member of the TOR forums (my username is Deksam btw) and comment on features without any claims to back up said comments, most of which, you can't, because even the regular gameplay demos can easily prove that if ANYTHING the flow of combat is very different if you actually watch and dissect it, really knocks your credibility.  I expected more of an actual conversation from a veteran of this site instead of baseless arguments,  but 30 minutes on DarthHater to see their in depth breakdown of the features would really do wonders for your case -- or lack thereof.

 

If we were having this discussion on one of the TOR tester squadron forums, I would love to comment on those features and discuss them in depth. However, since there is still NDA in effect and I am not even sure what is covered by it and what is not at this point, as I don't really follow the release of information on this game anymore, I choose not to discuss certain things in depth as I do not want to jeopardize my MMORPG.com account.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Its much more then a missing Auto Attack, if you had read my post,  and the class mechanic is entirely the "overall swing of things" .  I also see that you skipped the last question,  but its okay,  your credibility has dropped like a rock, you should have just stuck with opinions instead of trying to prove something by saying "You'll see" and citing an NDA breach.

 

Back on topic now, after that short stint of lunacy,

 

I just posted another interview this time with Daniel Erickson.  This was a much longer and more involved interview then James Ohlens,  and a good portion of it was on space combat.  Again he confirmed their focus,  but I wanted to point out as I did in another thread,  no one has asked a single question about expanding the space combat into free roam,  if it will be an option,  or if there are even plans to have PvP before launch.  I think there are quite a few missed opportunities here for the community to show some very vocal interest.

I've lost credibility because I won't disclose my user name on TOR's forums? lol ok boss.

The fact that you dismissed a number of my points, actual facts of the game, have no proof that you're even a member of the TOR forums (my username is Deksam btw) and comment on features without any claims to back up said comments, most of which, you can't, because even the regular gameplay demos can easily prove that if ANYTHING the flow of combat is very different if you actually watch and dissect it, really knocks your credibility.  I expected more of an actual conversation from a veteran of this site instead of baseless arguments,  but 30 minutes on DarthHater to see their in depth breakdown of the features would really do wonders for your case -- or lack thereof.

 

If we were having this discussion on one of the TOR tester squadron forums, I would love to comment on those features and discuss them in depth. However, since there is still NDA in effect and I am not even sure what is covered by it and what is not at this point, as I don't really follow the release of information on this game anymore, I choose not to discuss certain things in depth as I do not want to jeopardize my MMORPG.com account.

Then lets keep it to an understanding that you have specific reasons to believe what you believe based on your experience,  and I, on the other hand, have differing opinions because of my very specific reasons that are also comprised outside the NDA.  To this we can both attest to agreeing to disagree on enjoyment and clarity of what these features will bring.  

Between the both of us,  3 months down the line, our information will most likely be outdated anyway, unless we both plan to keep up with it.  We are still a good ways away from launch and everything is subject to change.  Maybe they will add that auto attack and dumb down the current mechanics.  Maybe they will add a free roam space area.  Before we make definitive statements on what we all will be playing at launch,  we should at least be comfortable with the overall flow of the information and gameplay released and then confirmed as the final product, which, right now even with all of my information, I am not comfortable with etching that in stone.

On a side note,  it may be to both our advantage to see the newest gametesting build they have open to the public at Gamescom,  Daniel Erickson mentioned something about it..... I wonder if space combat may also be playable?  Maybe too early to tell.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I expect the game to sell around 1.5 mil copies in first month. After that its up to one thing only - how much content there is in the game.

This is the only thing that will make or break this game.

Since its not true MMO - but heavily quest based rpg. Once you run out of quests the game is more or less over.

Judging from such heavy focus on production, voice overs, story. Its almost impossible there will be real big number of quest all together.

I expect that hardcore mmo player will burn trough the game in month time. And than find there is nothing more to do.

And than the problems for swtor will start

 

 I just don't get where these people get this idea from..... It has been said roughly 100 times that the game will feature all of the MMO aspects we come to expect:  Crafting, "Dungeons" (flashpoints), Raids, BG's, etc.   They did 100% say there will be Raids in the game.  Whether that happens, who knows, but they have announced that. 

I'm honestly asking.... did Blizzard announce any of their Raids before WoW came out?  And how many were actually availiable within the first 3 months?  I believe that MC was the only one availiable at launch, I could be wrong, and they released more as the game grew.   All we knew about WoW before launch, was, "Cool I can level a Warcraft character and class to level 60, and Raid Molten Core.... maybe do some Leatherworking and skinning?  AWSOME!!"    How does THAT sound like WoW would be such a huge  hit?

If you ask me, everything Bioware has announced for SWTOR has pointed to a much more full, fun, and awsome experience right out of the box, and that's ONLY the story aspects of the game and how they intertwine with one another and the numerous choices we'll have.

All in all people really need to back off with all these assumptions that it's not an MMO.  It seems like people are expecting the game to be completely Finished at launch.   MMO's are NOT like that, so people really need to relax and take, what looks to be, a VERY polished, VERY nice starting ground, and have fun with it, and let what Bioware has planned come as it comes.

Originally posted by MacAllen

No matter what, you can't please everyone.  Initially I would have said "if you touch a known IP.." but now I realize it doesn't matter.

If it's a known IP, there will always be those "Han Shot First"ers who see it how they see it.  Lucas himself could write this game and there'd be loud complainers.  People whine, it's a fact.

However, even games with no known IP (CoH, EQ, etc), people develop expectation in a vacuum and then are irked when these imaginary terms aren't met.

In the end, Bioware should pick it's vision, stay true to that vision, and make the game they want.  Lots of people will buy and play it, some will complain, but cater to their target audience, their defined demographic, they'll be fine.

Obviously one can't please everyone it's true. What's also true is BW doesn't own SW, so they shouldn't be allowed to run rampant with the canon just because they pick a grey era in the timeline.

I am glad it was announced that after this game, LA is not allowing anymore developers outside of LA to make anymore SW games. Because obviously not one single company so far stays true to the SW vision and instead they usually stay focused on Blizzard's wallet. 

I had hoped BW would stay true to SW and show SOE how it's done, but ever since "Force Unleashed", they have taken way too many "artistic liberties" with the SW canon.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Between the both of us,  3 months down the line, our information will most likely be outdated anyway, unless we both plan to keep up with it.  We are still a good ways away from launch and everything is subject to change.  Maybe they will add that auto attack and dumb down the current mechanics.  Maybe they will add a free roam space area.  Before we make definitive statements on what we all will be playing at launch,  we should at least be comfortable with the overall flow of the information and gameplay released and then confirmed as the final product, which, right now even with all of my information, I am not comfortable with etching that in stone.

You're absolutely right, we are a long time away from launch and lots of things can change. I had, and still have, a lot of hope for this game, being a huge Star Wars and BioWare fan. Hopefully, at least some of my desires for this game will be realized.

If not, I may still play it for the stories which, judging by BioWare's other games, should be great.

I think it would be quicker to summarize what I'm not expecting: pre-NGE (or even pre-CU) SWG.  I'm expecting a Bioware Star Wars RPG with all the awesomeness that usually entails.  Everything I've seen about TOR so far has left me eagerly awaiting its release; I've seen nothing to put me off.  Although the rails space combat is kind of "meh" - I honestly wouldn't have been bothered if they'd left it out entirely or just added it at a later date.

i realy realy realy love StarWars... but this is not StarWars :(

---

Originally posted by Bunnyking
If you want to fly a ship, go play EVE. End of. SW:TOR is not a space flight game. It's not. NOT.
OKAY?! Ok.

---

Indeed, why should SW have space combat? There are no armed starships in SW. Ever seen a starship shooting laser beams in SW? Must be dreaming or hallucinating! None of SW starships ever had weapons. Definitely. Oh, the Death Star thingy? It was just a fertilizing beam for terraforming purposes. Yep. Don't think of space combat, don't ask for it, and you will get a Jar-Jar companion for FREE!

Great expectations before release, big disappointments after release.

Originally posted by Paragus1

This game is pretty much a disappointment to me.   When you remove the Star Wars theme from the game, it looks just like every other MMO that came before it being heralded as the next big thing.  The combat videos look exactly like WoW, EQ2, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, Aion, etc.   The space combat is on the rails, which is a completely botched opportunity to make something that could have set this game apart from other "AAA" disasters.  There is little information about the end game which should frighten people.

After you played through the story, seen all the cutscenes, listened to all the voice acting, there will be nothing.   You can reroll to relive the story over again as a different character, or you can quit.   I love Bioware as much as the next guy with their single player games, but outside of the IP the gameplay looks recylced from the MMO graveyard.  With one of the biggest budgets for a video game, it's amazing to me that they are doubling down on a failed formula that will have 70% of the players leaving by the 90 day mark.   Considering they need to sustain a million people for an extended length of time to break even, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how this could be a recipe for disaster.

 

I agree... For me this smells of "Age of conan" where if you finished the story... there you stood and had nothing to do. And then you realised how small and empty the world in itself is.. And how this whole story experienced felt like someone just dragged you along holding your hand.

Bioware is good in SPRPGs. Anything i heard about the end game from them was something in the line of " Reroll and try the story again".

To be more on topic i don't know what my expectations were... I enjoy both Themaparks and sandboxes alike. I woud say i expected some freedom in class and race selection... which would encompass most of the star wars diversity of races which seems not to be the case. I expected classes to be more "vague" in their charcter... Jedi, sith, scoundrel and soldier and branching off to whatever one would like for grater freedom. And what we got is the more restricted version of the  typical tank and spank veriaty...

I'm not really impressed with anything this game has shown. The graphics are horrible looking so far. The strict armor sets are a horrible idea that should have died with warhammer online. The space combat i won't even comment on...

I understand why they have all those limitations... VO nd "story" being to blame here... But for so much money and a good RPG studio i expected better...

Still i might be pleasently surprised... We'll see...

Originally posted by Bunnyking

Another whiny article about space combat?! COME ON!

Get over it and write some interesting stuff. I'm just about getting sick of all the whining and nagging on this particular subject. It's not important in this mmorpg. If you want to fly a ship, go play EVE. End of. SW:TOR is not a space flight game. It's not. NOT.

OKAY?! Ok.

 

Agreed, I also find it amusing and slightly hypocritical that the article writer first goes on about how 'SWG vets', need to get over the whole sandbox star wars thing and then latter does exactly the same thing those vets do by complaining about an aspect of the game that he doesn't feel is Star Warsy enough , (translated: the space side isn't like Jump to Lightspeed, I know he stated he didn't want that, but considering what he wrote before I don't believe him :P).  

To me the space combat  looks fun and could be a nice diversion.  Time will tell if it works out that way.

The 150M$ went poof it seems. For me, the budget alone offers no excuses. Allods Online had a budget of 12M and is called the most expensive FTP game. Black Prophecy with spectacular arcade space combat which is just perfect for TOR, is also going to be FTP, with a budget surely even lower than Allods. So now we have Bioware with 150M who can't deliver what a FTP game can deliver for under 10M? Please. Dual gaming modes are getting popular nowadays, even among the FTP crowd (Florensia). Is it me or the more money a big studio spends on a game, the less they deliver for the value? I repeat, a minigame space combat on rails in a 150M dollar game? It must be a joke right? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt the budget of Half Life 2 a mere 8M? Where did Bioware spend all the milions? On voice acting, that 85% of the players will skip? On licensing to Lucas? Because the trailers I've seen show a game made for 20M top.

As Soon as i knew EA was involved my expectations became zero. I figured right away that they would throw out any sandbox elements and turn this into a creature drop game, with a bunch of kids pugging and town sitting AFK, 50 foot tall Raid bosses and instance caves in Korriban. The only differance between this and wow is instead of getting on the Zep or Tram now you get on the Falcon drop ship. Lame.

I'm just going to wait on CCPs new game, I don't do Themepark anymore, thats for kids.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I've seen many leaked vidoes read most of the articles seen some screen shots both released and leaked, I know a guy who says he's in the beta, don't buy it. Yeah can't say I see much of a resemblence unless WoW is the only game/MMO you've played.

Lets compile a list of known resemblences then? I'll start

Battlegrounds

Species assigned to certain professions

Raids

BoE and BoP items

wanna pick up here?

 

This can be said about most MMOs out there now.

Given everything that has been released, I expect SWTOR to be a fun game to play single-player and do some grouping in as you complete what is sure to be a well-written and interesting storyline.  I expect it to provide approximately a month of gameplay in worst case and two months in best case.   I expect it to be completely shallow and uninteresting as an MMO and have little to no reason to stick around after the initial storyline is (quickly) done.

I expect to buy the game pretty much regardless of any new information.  I love BioWare's single-player games and I know they'll deliver me at least that for my $50.  To me, any game that delivers a month of fun is more than worth the money.  

At the same time, I'm hugely disappointed in the approach BioWare took in developing a massive and well-documented world into a streamlined, pre-written, mostly single-player experience that is satisfied to merely tell each person a small story.  This may be enough for quick entertainment games like Mass Effect (awesome!) and KOTOR (awesome!) but it's not a good aspiration for the genre where the key accomplishment is the type of world you build for player to inhabit.  

It didn't need to be SWG2 or X-Wing, but it should have aimed higher in striving to provide the star wars experience than simply settling for being "Disney's Lightsaber Orgy:  Now featuring JediFox minigame". 

Originally posted by MacAllen

No matter what, you can't please everyone.  Initially I would have said "if you touch a known IP.." but now I realize it doesn't matter.

If it's a known IP, there will always be those "Han Shot First"ers who see it how they see it.  Lucas himself could write this game and there'd be loud complainers.  People whine, it's a fact.

However, even games with no known IP (CoH, EQ, etc), people develop expectation in a vacuum and then are irked when these imaginary terms aren't met.

In the end, Bioware should pick it's vision, stay true to that vision, and make the game they want.  Lots of people will buy and play it, some will complain, but cater to their target audience, their defined demographic, they'll be fine.

 

That was beautiful.

Originally posted by arieste

Given everything that has been released, I expect SWTOR to be a fun game to play single-player and do some grouping in as you complete what is sure to be a well-written and interesting storyline.  I expect it to provide approximately a month of gameplay in worst case and two months in best case.   I expect it to be completely shallow and uninteresting as an MMO and have little to no reason to stick around after the initial storyline is (quickly) done.

 

I expect to buy the game pretty much regardless of any new information.  I love BioWare's single-player games and I know they'll deliver me at least that for my $50.  To me, any game that delivers a month of fun is more than worth the money.  

 

At the same time, I'm hugely disappointed in the approach BioWare took in developing a massive and well-documented world into a streamlined, pre-written, mostly single-player experience that is satisfied to merely tell each person a small story.  This may be enough for quick entertainment games like Mass Effect (awesome!) and KOTOR (awesome!) but it's not a good aspiration for the genre where the key accomplishment is the type of world you build for player to inhabit.  

 

It didn't need to be SWG2 or X-Wing, but it should have aimed higher in striving to provide the star wars experience than simply settling for being "Disney's Lightsaber Orgy:  Now featuring JediFox minigame". 

200 hours of story for each class... that is a "small story" in your eyes?  quickly done?  And that is just the story, not all of the other things you can do in order to level and interact with other people.  If that's a month of gameplay in your mind, that really says a lot about the state of your mind. 

I did not expect anything at all (in terms of space combat) but they also mentioned that this is just a stepping stone in SWTOR and that space combat would evolve post launch. For me the trailer was exciting and would ad to the story in the PVE world remember this is the first MMO to have full voice overs for the majority of  quest lines and the story and progression is all that matters to me. BTW I am a huge Star Wars fan so just seeing anything from the Star Wars universe gives me a *stiffy  ^_^

Just My 2 Cents.

Originally posted by soglo

200 hours of story for each class... that is a "small story" in your eyes?  quickly done?  And that is just the story, not all of the other things you can do in order to level and interact with other people.  If that's a month of gameplay in your mind, that really says a lot about the state of your mind. 

 

It's my expectation based on having a lot of experience with many MMOs, single-player RPGs and BioWare spefically.  The truth of it we'll see when it comes out.  

I also am talking about what I've seen based on info released.  "All the other stuff you can do to interact with other people" is something that there is virtually no information on.  If tomorrow BioWare releases new information on "massive smuggling, bounty-hunting and non-combat mechanics", then I'll revise my expectations.  Until then, my assumption is that you're going from storyline quest to storyline quest, with a few side-quests, some occassional critters to kill and frequent visits to in-game market.

Originally posted by arieste

Given everything that has been released, I expect SWTOR to be a fun game to play single-player and do some grouping in as you complete what is sure to be a well-written and interesting storyline.  I expect it to provide approximately a month of gameplay in worst case and two months in best case.   I expect it to be completely shallow and uninteresting as an MMO and have little to no reason to stick around after the initial storyline is (quickly) done.

 

I expect to buy the game pretty much regardless of any new information.  I love BioWare's single-player games and I know they'll deliver me at least that for my $50.  To me, any game that delivers a month of fun is more than worth the money.  

 

At the same time, I'm hugely disappointed in the approach BioWare took in developing a massive and well-documented world into a streamlined, pre-written, mostly single-player experience that is satisfied to merely tell each person a small story.  This may be enough for quick entertainment games like Mass Effect (awesome!) and KOTOR (awesome!) but it's not a good aspiration for the genre where the key accomplishment is the type of world you build for player to inhabit.  

 

It didn't need to be SWG2 or X-Wing, but it should have aimed higher in striving to provide the star wars experience than simply settling for being "Disney's Lightsaber Orgy:  Now featuring JediFox minigame". 

 Honestly put together a synopsys about what SWG was about then compare it to what TOR is about and if you are being objective I hardly understand how you can justify that statement.  Star Wars in my eyes is and has always been about the story, the epic quests that were set upon by the heroes of that galaxy, it was not about moisture farming until you cornered the market (even though that was an interesting mechanic).  The plot line to Star Wars could well be the most well known "story" in movie history yet somehow you see it as they are going about this wrong?

It's plainly obvious you are not some kind of irrational naysayer but I think you atleast are underselling what Bioware is trying to accomplish.  They have even stated this game will have more content than every Bioware game put together and I can think of more than one Bioware game I enjoyed for more than a year.

I think the article poster is a bit stupid..seriously why all people think that this is a bad thing?

You know..befor they told us that there will be space actions they never wanted this in the vanilla game. Now they have added a mini game and you all dont like this. You know..they can still change this with expansions? there will be definitley an expansion with a different space fighting system and so on. Just wait. The game is huge right now even when there is no space fight. This mini game is just an extra that they took to give you some other options than just running around and making quests or other things on the planets. Really...think about it befor you build up a stupid idea

My expectations for SWTOR had all pretty much been met up to the point of this Space Combat thing...Like some around here I did not expect Space at Launch, what I did expect was if in fact BioWare took on Space Combat...it would be amazing...I think as polished as this looks and all it's going to fall far short of amazing, and I think thats a shame actually...I hate to keep running this out, but I can't for the life of me understand why this Dev Team would attempt any Space Combat that could potentially fall short of JTL...And I just don't see how Space Combat on a rail...as cool, shiny and colorful as it may look...can compare to a 360 degree Space Sim Developed in 2010...I think BioWare is REALLY falling short here and it's a shame. I would have been more than happy to wait until 2012 or 2013 to see an incredible Space Sim in SWTOR...And maybe that's what will happen in the end...Because this thing looks like it was thrown together to appease the massive cry for Space Combat...It just looks like a temporary fix...Everything about this Game should be Epic including Space...Save the mini games for Pazaak...

Good article!, I feel the same with the recent announcement and blogged my rage a few days back here: http://cerealgamers.blogspot.com/2010/08/biowares-inability-to-understand-mmorpg.html

I really don't understand why themepark and sandbox need to be mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by jaxsundane

 Honestly put together a synopsys about what SWG was about then compare it to what TOR is about and if you are being objective I hardly understand how you can justify that statement.  Star Wars in my eyes is and has always been about the story, the epic quests that were set upon by the heroes of that galaxy, it was not about moisture farming until you cornered the market (even though that was an interesting mechanic).  The plot line to Star Wars could well be the most well known "story" in movie history yet somehow you see it as they are going about this wrong?

It's plainly obvious you are not some kind of irrational naysayer but I think you atleast are underselling what Bioware is trying to accomplish.  They have even stated this game will have more content than every Bioware game put together and I can think of more than one Bioware game I enjoyed for more than a year.

 

I understand perfectly what they are trying to accomplish and why.  And as far as being representtive of the star wars MOVIE, i think it's valid.  Unfortunately, the star wars MOVIE has room for maybe... 20 heroes, max.  Which (probably not by accident) is pretty close to how many storyline options SWTOR is going to have (different story for each subclass or whatnote).  ANd if this was a game designed for 20 people, then I would say "well done BioWare, you've picked the perfect approach!"

However, this game is designed for 10,000-50,000 (approx number of people per server) of protagonists.  And the fact is, you can't have 50,000 Luke Skywalkers all with the same story (even if it has minor variations).  So by extension, you cannot design a game the same way for 50,000 as you do for 20.    You can make a game for 20 that represents just the MOVIE.  When you make a game for 50,000, you have to represent more of the WORLD.  And while people bring up boring things like moisture farming as examples of bad gameplay, there are plenty of more interesting gameplay possibilities in the star wars galaxy than farming.  And not all of them have to do with shooting tie-fighters either.   

Everquest 2 has more content than every bioware game put together.  So do a few other MMOs.  It's really not a huge claim when you switch over to the MMO genre.  (EQ2 has over 5,000 pre-written quests).    There are many MMOs that have used the story-driven approach to varied effect.  And while some were totally awesome and managed to tell amazing stories, I think most long-time MMO gamers will tell you that the majority of meaningful time spent in an MMO over the years has not been spent doing the main story quests.  Bioware is betting that all the other games just weren't good enough and that they can change things.   They're not the first company to make this bet, but they are the best.  Who knows, maybe they'll succeed.  Just all evidence points otherwise.

I expect a WoW like Star Wars themed game with voice over story. I expect laser blasters and star wars sounds. For these alone I ll "try" it out. But unfortunately wow in space doesn't interest me when I can play WoW. I say hold judgement try it, but if there isnt enough to hold the community other than "story" people will go back to wow.

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Originally posted by soglo

200 hours of story for each class... that is a "small story" in your eyes?  quickly done?  And that is just the story, not all of the other things you can do in order to level and interact with other people.  If that's a month of gameplay in your mind, that really says a lot about the state of your mind. 

---

1) I seriously doubt there will be 200 hours for each class. Classes are probably gonna have their own quest line each, but not everything will be different (i say only a small part), thus probably a few dozen hours will be actually "class specific".

2) Even considering the 200 hours per class as true, what part of those 200 hours will be actual content, and how many "kill stormtroopers and collect 200 shoulderpads" quests will there be...?

Originally posted by ryuga81

 

---

Originally posted by soglo

200 hours of story for each class... that is a "small story" in your eyes?  quickly done?  And that is just the story, not all of the other things you can do in order to level and interact with other people.  If that's a month of gameplay in your mind, that really says a lot about the state of your mind. 

---

 

1) I seriously doubt there will be 200 hours for each class. Classes are probably gonna have their own quest line each, but not everything will be different (i say only a small part), thus probably a few dozen hours will be actually "class specific".

2) Even considering the 200 hours per class as true, what part of those 200 hours will be actual content, and how many "kill stormtroopers and collect 200 shoulderpads" quests will there be...?

Have you not read or heard anything about the game?  Each class has a completely different storyline,  which gets compounded by your alignment, companion choice, advanced class choice etc.  200 hours of personal story is the low estimate the quote was 200+ hours of story.  The shared quests are called group quests which are part of the world quests.  You CAN share personal story quests with groups too though.

out of those 200 hours, most of it will take place in the open world.  How many kill 10 rats quests will there be?  Theres no telling,  but there are plenty more quests then just collect X amount,  just watch some of the class videos.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by jaxsundane

 Honestly put together a synopsys about what SWG was about then compare it to what TOR is about and if you are being objective I hardly understand how you can justify that statement.  Star Wars in my eyes is and has always been about the story, the epic quests that were set upon by the heroes of that galaxy, it was not about moisture farming until you cornered the market (even though that was an interesting mechanic).  The plot line to Star Wars could well be the most well known "story" in movie history yet somehow you see it as they are going about this wrong?

It's plainly obvious you are not some kind of irrational naysayer but I think you atleast are underselling what Bioware is trying to accomplish.  They have even stated this game will have more content than every Bioware game put together and I can think of more than one Bioware game I enjoyed for more than a year.

 

I understand perfectly what they are trying to accomplish and why.  And as far as being representtive of the star wars MOVIE, i think it's valid.  Unfortunately, the star wars MOVIE has room for maybe... 20 heroes, max.  Which (probably not by accident) is pretty close to how many storyline options SWTOR is going to have (different story for each subclass or whatnote).  ANd if this was a game designed for 20 people, then I would say "well done BioWare, you've picked the perfect approach!"

 

However, this game is designed for 10,000-50,000 (approx number of people per server) of protagonists.  And the fact is, you can't have 50,000 Luke Skywalkers all with the same story (even if it has minor variations).  So by extension, you cannot design a game the same way for 50,000 as you do for 20.    You can make a game for 20 that represents just the MOVIE.  When you make a game for 50,000, you have to represent more of the WORLD.  And while people bring up boring things like moisture farming as examples of bad gameplay, there are plenty of more interesting gameplay possibilities in the star wars galaxy than farming.  And not all of them have to do with shooting tie-fighters either.   

 

Everquest 2 has more content than every bioware game put together.  So do a few other MMOs.  It's really not a huge claim when you switch over to the MMO genre.  (EQ2 has over 5,000 pre-written quests).    There are many MMOs that have used the story-driven approach to varied effect.  And while some were totally awesome and managed to tell amazing stories, I think most long-time MMO gamers will tell you that the majority of meaningful time spent in an MMO over the years has not been spent doing the main story quests.  Bioware is betting that all the other games just weren't good enough and that they can change things.   They're not the first company to make this bet, but they are the best.  Who knows, maybe they'll succeed.  Just all evidence points otherwise.

I don't think its as easy as saying EQ2 has more content then every BioWare game put together,  5,000 prewritten  quests doesn't prove much, as how many quests does KOTOR have?  NWNs?  The expansions?  DA DLCs?  How could you even begin to determine that number rationally?  Not to mention, each BioWare game has split content,  per class, sometimes per race,  and per choice made.    This isn't just a topical view of the games in question and saying "yeah this game looks like it has more content".  In the very least I'd expect that you've played every BioWare game and had your completion time written down.  Perhaps then we'd have at least a minimal starting point.

No MMO to date has done the story driven approach in this way before,  to this extent.  It just hasn't been done.  I've never seen combat that looks like the combat we're seeing here,  not in SWG,  not even with MxO and their cinematic locked in combat.   Neither the block parry combat that was so jerky in PoTBS.    

But if content is king,  even if you remove the plus for personal story and stick with just 200 hours of personal story gameplay,  on top of that you still have all of the group quests,  all the PvP,  all of the other mini games or what have you,  and fighting for planetary control.  Thats not even getting into the crafting, creating any alts, or any of the other items BioWare is known for adding (you know, those little details like pod racing and pazaak,  even "gladiator" arenas).  

With quite a few months away from even a solid release date,  I think they've already blown a great number of current MMOs out of the water,  content wise, and all the features haven't even been released yet.

I think SW:TOR will have loads of content and great music but i'm having my doubts about  the gameplay. Possibly more of the same (old) classic MMO game mechanics. If this game shows any hint of failing then the MMORPG genre is thruly dead (also thanks to the F2P model). Then Co-op shooter games are the only future of multiplayergames, since they are popping up like mushrooms left right and center anyway.

To the author,

If you were expecting the game not to have space at launch, but be a full fledged expansion, I really wish you had read about Gordon Walton's panel at GDC in March. Gordon was one of the principles behind the JTL expansion in SWG and is also working on TOR. He called JTL a big mistake that actually hurt retention. Sure, the vocal minority on msg boards liked it, but the casual mmorpg player just wanted the exisitng content to be fixed/expanded on. They didn't want a space flight shooter that really didn't fit their skill sets anyway.

If the guy behind that expansion is now working on this game, and thought that expansion was a big mistake for SWG, why would he repeat such an egregious error? No, from the moment I read that article in March, I knew that space would not be an expansion, it would be in the game at launch, or never at all.

No offense to anyone here but...My only expectation  is that some people will complain no matter what. 

expected there to be some form of "decent" space combat... not at release though if I'm honest. A msg saying that they are planning space combat but not for release, perhaps for the first expansion would have met my expectations.

As it is with space combat on rails there is pretty much 0 chance now of seeing any form of decent space combat as we saw in swg as I can't see bioware wasting money they invested in the current form of space combat and admitting they made a mistake.

And to all those moaning at people for complaining about a feature not being in the game, wtf is your problem? People are all expected to like the same thing and expect the same things as you from a game? People like different things and people expect different things from a game. It just so happens the people complaining about space combat really wanted space combat in this game simular to what swg offered. Hardly a big ask from a game with a big budget and released 7-8 years after SWG.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by jaxsundane

 Honestly put together a synopsys about what SWG was about then compare it to what TOR is about and if you are being objective I hardly understand how you can justify that statement.  Star Wars in my eyes is and has always been about the story, the epic quests that were set upon by the heroes of that galaxy, it was not about moisture farming until you cornered the market (even though that was an interesting mechanic).  The plot line to Star Wars could well be the most well known "story" in movie history yet somehow you see it as they are going about this wrong?

It's plainly obvious you are not some kind of irrational naysayer but I think you atleast are underselling what Bioware is trying to accomplish.  They have even stated this game will have more content than every Bioware game put together and I can think of more than one Bioware game I enjoyed for more than a year.

 

I understand perfectly what they are trying to accomplish and why.  And as far as being representtive of the star wars MOVIE, i think it's valid.  Unfortunately, the star wars MOVIE has room for maybe... 20 heroes, max.  Which (probably not by accident) is pretty close to how many storyline options SWTOR is going to have (different story for each subclass or whatnote).  ANd if this was a game designed for 20 people, then I would say "well done BioWare, you've picked the perfect approach!"

 

However, this game is designed for 10,000-50,000 (approx number of people per server) of protagonists.  And the fact is, you can't have 50,000 Luke Skywalkers all with the same story (even if it has minor variations).  So by extension, you cannot design a game the same way for 50,000 as you do for 20.    You can make a game for 20 that represents just the MOVIE.  When you make a game for 50,000, you have to represent more of the WORLD.  And while people bring up boring things like moisture farming as examples of bad gameplay, there are plenty of more interesting gameplay possibilities in the star wars galaxy than farming.  And not all of them have to do with shooting tie-fighters either.   

 

Everquest 2 has more content than every bioware game put together.  So do a few other MMOs.  It's really not a huge claim when you switch over to the MMO genre.  (EQ2 has over 5,000 pre-written quests).    There are many MMOs that have used the story-driven approach to varied effect.  And while some were totally awesome and managed to tell amazing stories, I think most long-time MMO gamers will tell you that the majority of meaningful time spent in an MMO over the years has not been spent doing the main story quests.  Bioware is betting that all the other games just weren't good enough and that they can change things.   They're not the first company to make this bet, but they are the best.  Who knows, maybe they'll succeed.  Just all evidence points otherwise.

I don't think its as easy as saying EQ2 has more content then every BioWare game put together,  5,000 prewritten  quests doesn't prove much, as how many quests does KOTOR have?  NWNs?  The expansions?  DA DLCs?  How could you even begin to determine that number rationally?  Not to mention, each BioWare game has split content,  per class, sometimes per race,  and per choice made.    This isn't just a topical view of the games in question and saying "yeah this game looks like it has more content".  In the very least I'd expect that you've played every BioWare game and had your completion time written down.  Perhaps then we'd have at least a minimal starting point.

 

No MMO to date has done the story driven approach in this way before,  to this extent.  It just hasn't been done.  I've never seen combat that looks like the combat we're seeing here,  not in SWG,  not even with MxO and their cinematic locked in combat.   Neither the block parry combat that was so jerky in PoTBS.    

 

But if content is king,  even if you remove the plus for personal story and stick with just 200 hours of personal story gameplay,  on top of that you still have all of the group quests,  all the PvP,  all of the other mini games or what have you,  and fighting for planetary control.  Thats not even getting into the crafting, creating any alts, or any of the other items BioWare is known for adding (you know, those little details like pod racing and pazaak,  even "gladiator" arenas).  

 

With quite a few months away from even a solid release date,  I think they've already blown a great number of current MMOs out of the water,  content wise, and all the features haven't even been released yet.

True the game is more than just a few months away from any kind of release, but claiming that its blown a great number of other MMO's out of the water is... hilarious.. we dont know if the game is even going to be a success yet, and already your saying its done all these things, so far its not even done as much as Cryptic has done with STO.. until the game is released, and people actually start playing, its just guesswork, it might be amazing, it might get 12 million subscribers, or it might only get a few thousand, and fold after an abysmal performance.. or even somewhere in between, but there is one thing for sure, if the game is 'over hyped' then there will be a lot of disapointed people even if the game isnt that bad.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by soglo

200 hours of story for each class... that is a "small story" in your eyes?  quickly done?  And that is just the story, not all of the other things you can do in order to level and interact with other people.  If that's a month of gameplay in your mind, that really says a lot about the state of your mind. 

 

It's my expectation based on having a lot of experience with many MMOs, single-player RPGs and BioWare spefically.  The truth of it we'll see when it comes out.  

 

I also am talking about what I've seen based on info released.  "All the other stuff you can do to interact with other people" is something that there is virtually no information on.  If tomorrow BioWare releases new information on "massive smuggling, bounty-hunting and non-combat mechanics", then I'll revise my expectations.  Until then, my assumption is that you're going from storyline quest to storyline quest, with a few side-quests, some occassional critters to kill and frequent visits to in-game market.

If you have experience with BW games, then you know you get 50+ hrs of gaming out of each one. This game is supposed to have more content then all other BW games combined.....so say 50 hrs for each class(realistic....although I suppose there could be 200 hrs each) and you are talking 400 hrs of storyline gameplay alone.

Like I said in prior post...well worth the box cost.

If by chance there really is 200 hrs per class, so 1600 total, it will take a pre-order to make sure you have a copy of the game....as it will be flying off shelves. Most folks appreciate value for their dollar.

My expectations for SWTOR have been greatly lowered with the "Space Combat" reveal.  I too in full disclosure was a SWG day one vet.  However, I gave up on that when NGE hit, and it's water under the bridge.  So what were my space expectations?  As an avid BioWare and Star Wars fan, like thousands of others I have been diving every possible clue BioWare has revealed along the way.  Prior to the "Space Combat" reveal they were unusually cagey answering if it existed in the game.  The non-answers they gave for space combat were different than the usual non-answers.  I interpreted this as they would probably do something different or something they were nervous about.  I think many of us hangers on looking for any information also sensed it wouldn't be as grand in scope as we hoped.  Did I expect an SWG JTL experience?  Not at all.  It seems, sadly, the joystick experience in PC gaming is dead and I did not expect BioWare to try to revive it.  I did not, however, lower my expectations so low that "Space Combat" in SWTOR would wind up being a modern Rebel Assault.  I enjoyed that way back in the 90's for what it was, when CD-ROMs were newish and it was one of the first games to really pack the graphics in that new medium.  Did I expect BioWare to put a gussied up version in a AAA MMO in 2011?  No.  I really expected more.

Was that fair?  I think so.  If you look where BioWare resides, they are now in the EA stable.  EA owns IP that includes things like Wing Commander.  That game was not so much space sim as much as it was a cockpit space arcade kind of game.  I was hoping they could indeed bring that forward in some way, if they were going to bring anything of that era of gaming forward.  But I thought a true Space Combat game was probably too much to hope for.  At the minimum I was hoping they could work the player ships similar to the multi-player ships in SWG JTL.  That way we could invite friends along for a ride to the next planet of adventure, with no actual combat.  A space bus if you will.  I would have been happy with that.  But alas, we can't do that either.

Per James Ohlen this week, it is an optional gameplay component.  I am thankful that BioWare is not foisting such an obsolete experience on it's players.  I'm sure there are lots of fanboiz who will say it's the second coming.  But it's not.  Dozens of games over the decades have offered the same exact game play.  Nothing new here.  The same I'm sure could be said about the ground game not being a new breakthrough.  But I think the integral story experience, if they can make the BioWare RPG experience into an MMO...that is a breakthrough.  I was just hoping they could do the same for space.  If not at launch I would have even paid the expansion price for something with more free form flight into it.  But instead we get no Millenium Falcon experience.  No sitting in the cockpit watching the hyperspace lines streak past while enemy fighters are left behind.  Sadly we get a browser game in our PC MMO.  Maybe they can portion it off so it's accessible from mobile phones, that's where such a tunnel shooter would offer a challenge in 2011.  But BioWare....I expected better.

What a joke! There is nothig about this vid to get excited about. Fortunatley the rest of the game looks somewhat better, lets hope we're not forced into takig part in that crap space game.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by jaxsundane

 Honestly put together a synopsys about what SWG was about then compare it to what TOR is about and if you are being objective I hardly understand how you can justify that statement.  Star Wars in my eyes is and has always been about the story, the epic quests that were set upon by the heroes of that galaxy, it was not about moisture farming until you cornered the market (even though that was an interesting mechanic).  The plot line to Star Wars could well be the most well known "story" in movie history yet somehow you see it as they are going about this wrong?

It's plainly obvious you are not some kind of irrational naysayer but I think you atleast are underselling what Bioware is trying to accomplish.  They have even stated this game will have more content than every Bioware game put together and I can think of more than one Bioware game I enjoyed for more than a year.

 

I understand perfectly what they are trying to accomplish and why.  And as far as being representtive of the star wars MOVIE, i think it's valid.  Unfortunately, the star wars MOVIE has room for maybe... 20 heroes, max.  Which (probably not by accident) is pretty close to how many storyline options SWTOR is going to have (different story for each subclass or whatnote).  ANd if this was a game designed for 20 people, then I would say "well done BioWare, you've picked the perfect approach!"

 

However, this game is designed for 10,000-50,000 (approx number of people per server) of protagonists.  And the fact is, you can't have 50,000 Luke Skywalkers all with the same story (even if it has minor variations).  So by extension, you cannot design a game the same way for 50,000 as you do for 20.    You can make a game for 20 that represents just the MOVIE.  When you make a game for 50,000, you have to represent more of the WORLD.  And while people bring up boring things like moisture farming as examples of bad gameplay, there are plenty of more interesting gameplay possibilities in the star wars galaxy than farming.  And not all of them have to do with shooting tie-fighters either.   

 

Everquest 2 has more content than every bioware game put together.  So do a few other MMOs.  It's really not a huge claim when you switch over to the MMO genre.  (EQ2 has over 5,000 pre-written quests).    There are many MMOs that have used the story-driven approach to varied effect.  And while some were totally awesome and managed to tell amazing stories, I think most long-time MMO gamers will tell you that the majority of meaningful time spent in an MMO over the years has not been spent doing the main story quests.  Bioware is betting that all the other games just weren't good enough and that they can change things.   They're not the first company to make this bet, but they are the best.  Who knows, maybe they'll succeed.  Just all evidence points otherwise.

I don't think its as easy as saying EQ2 has more content then every BioWare game put together,  5,000 prewritten  quests doesn't prove much, as how many quests does KOTOR have?  NWNs?  The expansions?  DA DLCs?  How could you even begin to determine that number rationally?  Not to mention, each BioWare game has split content,  per class, sometimes per race,  and per choice made.    This isn't just a topical view of the games in question and saying "yeah this game looks like it has more content".  In the very least I'd expect that you've played every BioWare game and had your completion time written down.  Perhaps then we'd have at least a minimal starting point.

 

No MMO to date has done the story driven approach in this way before,  to this extent.  It just hasn't been done.  I've never seen combat that looks like the combat we're seeing here,  not in SWG,  not even with MxO and their cinematic locked in combat.   Neither the block parry combat that was so jerky in PoTBS.    

 

But if content is king,  even if you remove the plus for personal story and stick with just 200 hours of personal story gameplay,  on top of that you still have all of the group quests,  all the PvP,  all of the other mini games or what have you,  and fighting for planetary control.  Thats not even getting into the crafting, creating any alts, or any of the other items BioWare is known for adding (you know, those little details like pod racing and pazaak,  even "gladiator" arenas).  

 

With quite a few months away from even a solid release date,  I think they've already blown a great number of current MMOs out of the water,  content wise, and all the features haven't even been released yet.

True the game is more than just a few months away from any kind of release, but claiming that its blown a great number of other MMO's out of the water is... hilarious.. we dont know if the game is even going to be a success yet, and already your saying its done all these things, so far its not even done as much as Cryptic has done with STO.. until the game is released, and people actually start playing, its just guesswork, it might be amazing, it might get 12 million subscribers, or it might only get a few thousand, and fold after an abysmal performance.. or even somewhere in between, but there is one thing for sure, if the game is 'over hyped' then there will be a lot of disapointed people even if the game isnt that bad.

I can concede to the point that we haven't "seen" the extent of content that they've claimed to be in game,  but I can contest to the fact that they have said they will supply this amount of content.  I guess it comes down to what you'd rather believe.. and hesitation is understandable in todays MMO market.  I wouldn't believe though,  that BioWare would skimp on one of their main selling points, which is the game being content heavy.

I think Hype and Expectation are two very different things,  and sometimes people are getting them confused.  On top of that there are realistic expectations and then unrealistic expectations,  the regular hype, and unfounded hype.  A flight simulator was an unrealistic expectation for this kind of game,  but that didn't stop people from wanting it.   Saying that TOR will be the largest content MMO to date,  unfounded hype.  Stating that 200+ hours of gameplay per class story is hype-able based on actual developers comments -- not so much.

In the same avenue, the extra classes in WAR along with the added PvP capitals,  that was founded hype the developers spoke about early on too,  that was cut from the game.    I would go out on a ledge and say the development cycle is very different between these two games,  but I can't chastise anyone for curbing their belief in a developer.  If anything though a wait and see attitude is okay,  but blatant disregard for the intended accomplishments, whether seen at this time,  or unseen is in the very least a cause of ridicule. 

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by soglo

200 hours of story for each class... that is a "small story" in your eyes?  quickly done?  And that is just the story, not all of the other things you can do in order to level and interact with other people.  If that's a month of gameplay in your mind, that really says a lot about the state of your mind. 

 

It's my expectation based on having a lot of experience with many MMOs, single-player RPGs and BioWare spefically.  The truth of it we'll see when it comes out.  

 

I also am talking about what I've seen based on info released.  "All the other stuff you can do to interact with other people" is something that there is virtually no information on.  If tomorrow BioWare releases new information on "massive smuggling, bounty-hunting and non-combat mechanics", then I'll revise my expectations.  Until then, my assumption is that you're going from storyline quest to storyline quest, with a few side-quests, some occassional critters to kill and frequent visits to in-game market.

If you have experience with BW games, then you know you get 50+ hrs of gaming out of each one.

I've personally talked to about 20 people that bought, played and absolutely LOVED Mass Effect 2.  All of them got approx 25-30 hours of gameplay out it.  None of them took longer than a week to get through it.  A few did it in 1 day, I personally took 3 days.  

So "10 hours of gametime as per bioware" is about 1 day of playtime for me.  So...200 hours = 20 days.  Let's assume I play TOR half as much as I did ME.   So 40 days.  Just over a month.  This assuming someone even does the majority of the content.  I love to quest, so I'm usually at like 80%+ of content, but I've found in other MMOs that I'm in the minority and that the majority of players just blow through the content to high level and do **maybe** 40% of it.  So 40% of those 40 days is under a month.  So my original estimates of 1-2 months of content seem pretty reasonable. 

I'm not taking into account that you can group in this game and do a lot of the content faster than you would do solo.  I'm not taking into account "crap" content.  And regardless of how amazing BioWare is, there will be bad or uninteresting quests.

But it's not even about those numbers.  There could be 200 hours.  Or 400 hours.  Or 800.  Pre-written quests are still the lesser part of what one does in an MMORPG.   It doesn't matter how many hours there are.  This part of the game is sold.  I have no doubt it's brilliant.  What I - and many others keep asking is - "what then?"

World of Warcraft does just fine without space combat, so will SW:TOR.

The problem here is that people "want" things. They want the game their way. Its not that a game should or should not have something in it. We all WANT some things. Now when we dont get it. We feel its our right to complain and show our own logic on the game should be made. Or what should be in it.

 Well its not our game. We are not paying for the development and are not involved in the design. I do understand that in the end we, if we choose to will be paying for hte game. But the reality is that we will never get everything that we want. Or i guess for this thread what we "expect"

Originally posted by Saerain

Originally posted by MacAllen

No matter what, you can't please everyone.  Initially I would have said "if you touch a known IP.." but now I realize it doesn't matter.

If it's a known IP, there will always be those "Han Shot First"ers who see it how they see it.  Lucas himself could write this game and there'd be loud complainers.  People whine, it's a fact.

However, even games with no known IP (CoH, EQ, etc), people develop expectation in a vacuum and then are irked when these imaginary terms aren't met.

In the end, Bioware should pick it's vision, stay true to that vision, and make the game they want.  Lots of people will buy and play it, some will complain, but cater to their target audience, their defined demographic, they'll be fine.

 

That was beautiful.

Yeah. Best thing so far about SW:TOR is that Lucas didn't write it and that Bioware is 'picking it's vision'. Never much liked His writing in Star Wars but this might actually work.

I am just looking forward to what BioWare has up its collective sleeves.  As far as space combat goes, its nothing.  Every single announcement is met by those who have this magical idea of what makes a perfect game, those that believe that they are better designers and developers than those actually getting paid to do these things (it might be true but I doubt it lol).  Just look at the way the forums have exploded over omg Jedi Wizards.  The sky is falling!!!!   Look at what happened with the Racial/specie anouncements: OMG you can only be 1 human and 1 non human for each class omg BioWare doesn't know how to make a game, omg omg omg omg omg.

The only person anyone has to be disappointed with is themselves for getting so wrapped up in something that they have no control over, nor clue of what they are speaking.  So many people across this and other forums will not be happy unless they remake swg.... SWG was a piece of shit when it launched, and as time went on, it became worse and worse.  Sure we all had our good times, but very few seem to remember that for every one thing that was acceptable in swg there were a thousand things that completely sucked.  From the Dev team at Verant to the powers that be at SOE and LA.

I am starting to believe that no matter what is announced by BioWare the most vocal of the community are gonna continue with their temper tantrums and whines and complaints and will not be happy until they can tear the game down as much as possible.  I think its hilarious that this site's hype meter has dropped for TOR, seemingly daily since E3.  Look at the rediculous comments in the game's hype!!

Zeppelin4 writes: Needs to be more like SWG and less like Wow.

testmyluck writes: Another dumbed down MMO that plays more like a co-op RPG. Just what everyone wanted! Oh wait, no.

Waizer writes: Without proper space combat how can this be considered a SW game? :/

MacLinux writes: Star wars without Stars (only a ridiculous railshooter) and without Wars (where's the PVP ?) Millions of dollars for this ? I'll stay away from this. MMO's world is pathetic. I'll play again KOTOR I, great solo game, and Eve online or something else.

Asuran21 writes: Not much into originality. Seems like a WoW in space with story. It gets a 4. Guild Wars 2 seems to have a lot of what SWTOR has and more.

And it goes on.  It's hillarious how so many people have played the game and know everything there is to know about it lol.  My ONLY hope for this game is that all these people that have nothing better to do than to bitch about every single announcement from bioware actually follow through with their hollow threats.  The game's community will be far better the sooner y'all leave and let the adults talk about things.  Thank you. :D

I am both a Bioware fan and a Star Wars fan, but I have kept my expections low,  I believe this game will be more a

RPG/mmo, which I am happy for, all I hope is it is fun for a large amount of people.. high hopes and huge expections only lead to fast disapointment and nerd rage in the forums, as good as Biowre is they will make their share of mistakes and, will do things that will make some folks unhappy, happens in all online games to some degree..:)

I'm simply going to wait a month or so after the release.  By then, if it is a stinker, rabid fanboi forum trolls, and clever marketing hype won't be able to hide simple facts.  WAR and STO are 2 examples that come to mind where the hype seemed proportionate to the level of mediocre of the game.  It just seems like the only way to tell now is to just wait.

It pains me that space and space combat was a development afterthought for this game. It's called "STAR Wars", not "Ground Wars". The opening sequence of ever single Star Wars movie, including the new prequel trash, was in space, flying around in a goddamn ship. 

Whoever thought this game needed to be 95% focus on ground and 5% focus on space (because it's a tunnel shooter, that couldn't have taken more than 1 day to completely design) doesn't tap into the feeling the masses get when they hear "Star Wars".

It's like the lessons learned from Star Wars: Galaxies... weren't really learned.

Well Mike for the most part your preaching to the choir on this website.  Problem is for the most part the million or so members registered to this site arn't the target demographic for this game.  The target demographic is those who like Star Wars but have very limited exposure to MMO's and those same Star Wars fans who play WOW and would like the familar mechanics but with a Star Wars theme.  Not many of which are part of the membership of this site.  For those kind of people it would seem SW:KoTR MMO is right on the money.  With how long it's been in development with at least 6 more months before a closed Beta this could very well rival Blizzard in terms of quality/polish of the launched product.

Long story short if your a vet from such things as the original Everquest or DAOC or UO or evan AO then yep this game will probably be a big disappointment.  If however your new to the MMO genre or you enjoy WOW but want the same sort of thing with probably much better and deeper story set in the Star Wars universe then you will probably be over joyed.  Mind you I don't expect many of the second group to actually ever see these words.

The absolute best part about this MMO for me is how many souls its going to crush upon release.  The fanboism on this particular title has been running rampant since first mention of it being a bioware developed game.

I had reservations when i heard that, because i will admit, bioware makes well polished games, but they are about as unoriginal a game company as blizzard is, which is really saying something.

I *hoped* they would would make an actual MMO and not just rehash KOTOR as they've been doing since KOTOR with literally every game they've made....alas my hopes were dashed as that's precisely what they're doing.

I honestly can't wrap my head around why people are excited about this game.  I was willing to forgive the slightly cartoony graphics if it was actual solid gameplay, but all its going to be is an overglorified single player game in which im going to pay $15/mo to play.  How about no, scott...

And as for the space combat... imagine me making wanking motions with my hand, if you will.

Originally posted by risenbones

Well Mike for the most part your preaching to the choir on this website.  Problem is for the most part the million or so members registered to this site arn't the target demographic for this game.  The target demographic is those who like Star Wars but have very limited exposure to MMO's and those same Star Wars fans who play WOW and would like the familar mechanics but with a Star Wars theme.  Not many of which are part of the membership of this site.  For those kind of people it would seem SW:KoTR MMO is right on the money.  With how long it's been in development with at least 6 more months before a closed Beta this could very well rival Blizzard in terms of quality/polish of the launched product.

 

Long story short if your a vet from such things as the original Everquest or DAOC or UO or evan AO then yep this game will probably be a big disappointment.  If however your new to the MMO genre or you enjoy WOW but want the same sort of thing with probably much better and deeper story set in the Star Wars universe then you will probably be over joyed.  Mind you I don't expect many of the second group to actually ever see these words.

Obviously you are very wrong about the "target demographic" for SWTOR. Simply put, you honestly do not know what BW's marketing reps are targeting, it's never been stated.

Imo, their target demographic are those who have had little exposure to SW but are WoW fans obviously. 

Why else would BW copy/paste WoW's features, everything from basic class structuring and skill trees, to class racial restrictions, and the same color palette even. Walking all over the SW canon without any regard to consistency is not what I call aiming for SW fans. 

Originally posted by Czanrei

...Walking all over the SW canon without any regard to consistency is not what I call aiming for SW fans. 

How on earth are they "walking all over the SW canon"?

You mean the game won't feature 3-foot tall Bothans in Chef Boyardee hats single-handedly demolishing enraged rancor lairs with intergalactic karate?

Nobody should be expecting anything greater than online KotoR with co-op play from this.

But this isn't a bad thing for anyone, unless they hated KotoR. It might be bad for the company, since it's hard to justify a sub on a single player game, especially in the long run. But eh, not our problem; Bioware will be fine regardless I imagine. 

So many complaints, but really, no matter how good or bad it seems a whole lot of people are going to buy it and play it. And if it turns out like it's shaping up, they'll play through a few times with a few classes for the story, and quit till more interesting content comes out.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Czanrei

...Walking all over the SW canon without any regard to consistency is not what I call aiming for SW fans. 

How on earth are they "walking all over the SW canon"?

You mean the game won't feature 3-foot tall Bothans in Chef Boyardee hats single-handedly demolishing enraged rancor lairs with intergalactic karate?

lol, enjoyed that.

Originally posted by Asthanos

Nobody should be expecting anything greater than online KotoR with co-op play from this.

 

But this isn't a bad thing for anyone, unless they hated KotoR. It might be bad for the company, since it's hard to justify a sub on a single player game, especially in the long run. But eh, not our problem; Bioware will be fine regardless I imagine. 

 

So many complaints, but really, no matter how good or bad it seems a whole lot of people are going to buy it and play it. And if it turns out like it's shaping up, they'll play through a few times with a few classes for the story, and quit till more interesting content comes out.

 Not sure where you get Co-op, singleplayer game from.

It is a true MMO.  Sure if you want to solo the game I guess there is that option, but why would you want to do that and miss out on all the parts of the game that require grouping?    Really , if you don't know what you are talking about , than you need to stop. This game is as much of an MMO as any game. In fact there is not much of a difference other than voice over and choices that could be made during your questing. You are still gonna see other players running around  on planets that appear to be pretty seamless.

Yea , they want you to engage in the story and enjoy it. So what? Other games just throw together any old thing and people don't bother to read it because it is half assed and boring.   It amazes me all the people complaining about what is shaping up to possibly be one of the best games out there. Bioware has went to great lenghts to provide people with a good enjoyable star wars experience , yet you still have people that want to complain and make things up , when they have no idea what they are saying.

Originally posted by risenbones

Well Mike for the most part your preaching to the choir on this website.  Problem is for the most part the million or so members registered to this site arn't the target demographic for this game.  The target demographic is those who like Star Wars but have very limited exposure to MMO's and those same Star Wars fans who play WOW and would like the familar mechanics but with a Star Wars theme.  Not many of which are part of the membership of this site.  For those kind of people it would seem SW:KoTR MMO is right on the money.  With how long it's been in development with at least 6 more months before a closed Beta this could very well rival Blizzard in terms of quality/polish of the launched product.

 

Long story short if your a vet from such things as the original Everquest or DAOC or UO or evan AO then yep this game will probably be a big disappointment.  If however your new to the MMO genre or you enjoy WOW but want the same sort of thing with probably much better and deeper story set in the Star Wars universe then you will probably be over joyed.  Mind you I don't expect many of the second group to actually ever see these words.

 I don't understand why you are insulting the people that are excited about this game. I'm 28 years old. I have been playing MMO's since 1997 I started with Nexus, went on to play SWG, and many other games.

You think I would pay for another nexus subscription when the game is over 10 years old and outdated? NO. I expect better from a company. 

I expect them to give me content to be entertained with, instead of logging in to a depressing game  with nothing going on.

I am not a big fan of WoW. I have played it and the times I did play it I liked some of it.

You have no clue who the target audience is. I guess if you are an MMORPG complainer who stays on forums all day and bashes the man because you want your indie gaming company to come out on top. Yea , maybe it is not for you then.

I have to agree 100% the "on rails" style of combat does seem like their lowering their standards just to get Space into the game before launch.

However remember who we're dealing with... bioware. These guys and gals created great games such as Baulder's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Now lets examine those two games. When traveling from one location to another you would deal with random encounters, they'd stop your progress and you'd have to fight them out.

Now I haven't read all the details but this mini-game-esque space combat could just be a random encounter as you travel from one planet to another. Then after launch as things get going they could begin to add sections of the game that allow you to travel around whole sectors of space at will. Thats just my thought on the whole thing. I'm going into TOR with the mindset that its going to be a very big and very online version of KoTOR and that dosn't bother me at all.

As for sandbox and SWG, I miss it and I hope one day some developer out there gets brave and makes one, I know I'd flock to it and so would thousands of others.

Wish you could have just saved us some time and told people to just read the last two paragraphs.  Blah, blah, blah, don't like space combat, blah, blah.  You stated in the article that you didn't want this one to be about space combat...but that was your whole argument.  Lame

Frankly, SWG's space combat was boring. While it was kind of sandboxy there were large empty places and few players who liked being up there. So the expectation that BioWare would make that same mistake seems a little bit odd. People like fast paced on rails space combat games, seems reasonable thats why it would be designed that way in SW:ToR. Dont let nastalga cloud your judgement and take the place of what was actually not so fun in SWG.

A trailer is shown, and the world crumbles? Get over yourselves, it's amazing how many people have jumped on the bandwagon of hating/loving this game even before it has started play testing.

No-one knows what the full scope of the game is yet. No-one knows if the space side of things is limited to what was shown in the trailer or not. No-one knows what end game content there will be. No-one knows if everything will be "just like KOTOR". Because there simply isn't enough information out there yet to make those kinds of call.

What we do know is that Bioware have a great track record in RPG's - almost unparallleled Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect, KOTOR are all great games, not average but great for their time and place in gaming history, and that as yet they are untested in the MMO market.

So what? You can hate on WoW all  you like but it would be hard to disagree with the fact that it is the most succesful MMO of all time, and Blizzard had no experience of MMOs before they went in to that project.

So for me, I'll withhold judgement and try and enjoy the experience of playing the release before making up my mind.

I'd have to say i'm just about in 100% total agreement with Michael Bitton on this. I too was not expecting any space combat at launch, and i'm in that camp of those who feel almost insulted that it's going to be a rail shooter - indeed, as MB said, no matter how beautiful it is. I also agree that were it a stand-alone rail shooter, i'd almost assuredly play it, probably a ton. It's just not what i was expecting, nor would i have hoped for as the space component in a SW mmo.

After the first announcements that we'd be able to own our own ships, people immediately thought the space portion would be more like what SWG eventually had. I think that probably led to a lot of the dissapointment in what it ultimately is going to be (At least at launch).

Now, there's no guarantee that they wont expand on it later, but it is extremely unlikely, depending on how much time and resources were put into developing the space portion. If it was really simple due to some other engine and assets they already had from some game that never happened, then maybe. If however (and more likely) it was developed more or less from the ground up just for TOR, then we're probably stuck with it. It will still have some room to grow, just not into much more than a rail-shooter.

I also fully agree that there is definitely plenty to look forward to with TOR, regardless of how you feel about the space combat. Look at it this way, if you were not expecting any space combat, then who cares, just dont do it if you dont like it once you try it. Looks from that video like they're gonna give you your first ship, probably as a reward after a quest chain, or in order to start one, so probably little to no initial investment to try it out.

I'm still sold, i'll still be playing TOR regardless, i'll just remain disappointed with what i''ve seen, at least until i play it. Who knows, it may turn out to be a great time-sink, and isn't that what an mmo is anyway? Just another thing we do to waste some time doing something we enjoy? So i'll keep an open mind about it, but with skepticism at the forefront about the space combat.

My expectations for SW:TOR are still huge, and at the same time, i think realistic, because of the way i like to play mmos, and the fact that i solo a lot. From what they've announced so far, this could be like playing KOTOR with crafting and online friends etc, best of both worlds.

...so the basis of your disappointment is that you'd rather have nothing at all then everything later, and then assume that by them giving something as simple as a star fox style mini-game that they will never implement true space combat?

You're jumping to conclusions a bit early, honestly. 

The Space combat we're getting now, I believe, is only a precursor for something potentially much greater to come.  This wll allow them to flesh out the controls, get more ships and customizing options and then potentially unleash a universe for us to explore as well.

Don't think its possible? Look at EVE online and what they've been adding.

You speak from the heart of many of us good sir.  The space combat did look exciting but it's dissapointing that it's not an open space environment.

Originally posted by severius

I am just looking forward to what BioWare has up its collective sleeves.  As far as space combat goes, its nothing.  Every single announcement is met by those who have this magical idea of what makes a perfect game, those that believe that they are better designers and developers than those actually getting paid to do these things (it might be true but I doubt it lol).  Just look at the way the forums have exploded over omg Jedi Wizards.  The sky is falling!!!!   Look at what happened with the Racial/specie anouncements: OMG you can only be 1 human and 1 non human for each class omg BioWare doesn't know how to make a game, omg omg omg omg omg.

The only person anyone has to be disappointed with is themselves for getting so wrapped up in something that they have no control over, nor clue of what they are speaking.  So many people across this and other forums will not be happy unless they remake swg.... SWG was a piece of shit when it launched, and as time went on, it became worse and worse.  Sure we all had our good times, but very few seem to remember that for every one thing that was acceptable in swg there were a thousand things that completely sucked.  From the Dev team at Verant to the powers that be at SOE and LA.

I am starting to believe that no matter what is announced by BioWare the most vocal of the community are gonna continue with their temper tantrums and whines and complaints and will not be happy until they can tear the game down as much as possible.  I think its hilarious that this site's hype meter has dropped for TOR, seemingly daily since E3.  Look at the rediculous comments in the game's hype!!

Zeppelin4 writes: Needs to be more like SWG and less like Wow.

testmyluck writes: Another dumbed down MMO that plays more like a co-op RPG. Just what everyone wanted! Oh wait, no.

Waizer writes: Without proper space combat how can this be considered a SW game? :/

MacLinux writes: Star wars without Stars (only a ridiculous railshooter) and without Wars (where's the PVP ?) Millions of dollars for this ? I'll stay away from this. MMO's world is pathetic. I'll play again KOTOR I, great solo game, and Eve online or something else.

Asuran21 writes: Not much into originality. Seems like a WoW in space with story. It gets a 4. Guild Wars 2 seems to have a lot of what SWTOR has and more.

And it goes on.  It's hillarious how so many people have played the game and know everything there is to know about it lol.  My ONLY hope for this game is that all these people that have nothing better to do than to bitch about every single announcement from bioware actually follow through with their hollow threats.  The game's community will be far better the sooner y'all leave and let the adults talk about things.  Thank you. :D

Hype falls when people find out the game isn't "OMG the perfect mmo". It happened to SWTOR, it will happen to GW2, TERA, and RIFT.

My hype for GW2 went from an 8 to a 6 after the gameplay video was released. The combat was not that great looking.

My expectations is the same with all MMO's and most of them dissapoint.  However, in no game could the dissapointment be greater than in this one.  PK and PVP dominated games where players can buy their success.  Is it just me or does buying your success seem like the dark side?  It's quick, easy, and makes playing the game totally easy.  Pluss, if the game is PvP heavy and PK enabled every where or of great benefit to players, being dark side will become a requirement even if you are good.  Case in point, my first MMORPG, Fiesta.  Fiesta has become a trash dump for  bullies. (Bullying is "repeated oppression, psychological or physical, of a less powerful person by a more powerful person")  I EXPECT this MMORPG NOT to fall straight to the dark side like so many other MMO's.  I mean it's like: 1. Sign up, 2. Download game, 3. Log on, 4. buy $100.00 worth of game credits, 5. Breeze through the game on hyperdrive to LVL 99+, 6. Go to the best spot in the game for grinding and Leveling up for players who can't BUY their success and BULLY every one who is PLAYING THE GAME THE HARD WAY by repeatedly killing them because you're bored!  Dark Side MUCH?

I've seen the patern repeated over and over again, especially in more free-form MMO games.  I'm a poor college student going to school on my own dime and can afford dues at the most.  I don't have mommy and dady bank rolling my gaming.  If this MMO isn't maintained in balance by the FORCE, (i.e. the game managers and designers), I won't pay or play it.

I expected an STO styled failier.

Nothing I have seen discourages me about this game so far. What worries me is the stuff i have not seen. How buggy will it be at launch, how will the economy work, what will the endgame be like. For any MMO those things are what kill it. You need an endgame, thriving economy and a bug free game . If the game fails on one of those fronts, this game will be called garbage. Pretty does not garuntee success, just ask Conan.

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by kumoblade

...so the basis of your disappointment is that you'd rather have nothing at all then everything later, and then assume that by them giving something as simple as a star fox style mini-game that they will never implement true space combat?

You're jumping to conclusions a bit early, honestly. 

 

The Space combat we're getting now, I believe, is only a precursor for something potentially much greater to come.  This wll allow them to flesh out the controls, get more ships and customizing options and then potentially unleash a universe for us to explore as well.

Don't think its possible? Look at EVE online and what they've been adding.

It's pretty clear from the interview with James Ohlen over at Darth Hater that this was a deliberate decision and I would really not expect anything akin to JTL down the line, though you can be sure I will definitely ask him if I get the chance!:

In addition to the information learned about advanced classes today, we also got to see the very first in-game footage of space combat. We read the press' observations of what they thought Space Combat looked like, and now the community is giving their feedback on what they saw. In your own words, can you explain the rationale for including Space Combat in TOR?

James: Because we are making a Star Wars game, we have to have space combat. The way we decided to implement it was to give each player his own starship, because that is a big fantasy - owning your own Millennium Falcon. We also wanted to give the player the ability to travel the galaxy. So, when he gets on his starship, he can choose which planets he wants to go to using a beautiful galaxy map that allows him to travel from star system to star system. Then, once you have your own starship, you are going to want to get involved in battles so we decided to add a combat portion to it.

Keep in mind, our game is all about cinematic storytelling and taking the best cinematic moments from the movies and recreating them. When we decided to add space combat to the game, we wanted to maintain this cinematic quality. To do this, we thought of the most exciting moments in the movies: The Return of the Jedi final battle, the original battle in Episode IV on the Death Star, Han Solo escaping the Imperial fleet in The Empire Strikes Back, Obi Wan battling against Jango Fett in the asteroid field in Episode II. Those are the kind of moments we decided we want to recreate. That is why we chose to go the route we did and to build the game the way we did. We built more of a crafted experience for the player, so that he doesn't have to go looking for the excitement in space combat. We did not want to create a game where you had to fly around in 3D space and try to find your excitement; you go directly into the space fighter game and the excitement is right there. It's like a moment from the Star Wars movies.

Emphasis mine. I think James made Bioware's stance crystal clear here. This was a design decision. One can certainly expand on the options offered by the rail shooter space combat (PvP, group missions, new ships, etc), but in the end it will always be a rail shooter, and I think it's pretty clear they have no plans to go the other direction.

Group missions, yes,  New ships, yes, PvP?  On a tunnel shooter?  Never seen it happen without opening up free roam.  When asked about it most recently though,  they reserve comment.  Even if James Ohlen, or Ray Muzyka for that matter were in this thread right now,  they wouldn't release the information even if they had something TO release.  I absolutely think we will see some sort of open space combat,  its completely possible with the current system in place,  afterall I thought this was akin to starfox.  

One thing I know for certain is that MMOs are always subject to change,  some for the better, some for the worse,  in that regard I'm not going to count out roaming flight PvP, or maybe even exploration for that matter,  until they confirm we will never see it.

On a side note this kind of combat can give us something that we haven't had in SWG and JTL.    Atmospheric flight. 

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by heartless

My expectation is for this game to be exactly like WoW only more single-player oriented.
 

Makes sense, you went into great depth in explaining why. Bravo.

Just look around the industry a bit and you won't need a reason why some feel that's where most games are headed. Whether they turn out to be or not really doesn't matter,  in the last few years most games have turned out that way. Most companies follow trends it's as simple as that.

My expectations are basically the same, and they're not of a negative influence. I still think it will be something close to what he said, which isn't exactly a bad thing. It's just not for everyone.

SWTOR doesn't look to much like WoW, if he says he 'expects' it to be, he could explain a bit more.

Single-player oriented, if that's how you plan on playing it. I can't argue with that, they said the game would be soloable from start to finish, you'd miss group content, but level cap without help. This doesn't bother me either, actually neither does it being comparable to WoW.

What I'd like to know is, how?

But he can't talk because of the NDA and all, he just expects it to be like WoW, he doesn't know for sure.

You don't even need anyone to break the NDA to see how similar TOR is to WoW. There is a plethora of information available on this game, including gameplay videos. Not to mention the simple fact that BioWare developers have all but professed their devotion to WoW.

I can go into much more detail but unfortunately this site honors NDA agreements of other corporations so until you actually play the game, you'll be wondering whether I'm right or wrong.

I won't be.  I know that you're wrong.  Will the game play similar to WoW,  yes it will.  (In the same way you could say GW2 plays similar to WoW) Will it play exactly like WoW,  no,  no it won't.  I don't even have to break the NDA to tell you that .  Could I breach the NDA to prove it?  I sure as hell could,  and I'm not even in gametesting, but I wouldn't want to endanger those that I know that are.  So, you can either find this information yourself by looking up information on the current system,  viewing the in game gameplay, or finding leaks to whats currently out there,  or you can continue to pretend you know everything about the *limited* gametesting currently going on. 

The game is WoW set in Star Wars universe. It's obvious just by watching the gameplay videos.

Combat = standard MMO fare.

Instances = WoW.

Quest driven = WoW.

Gear oriented = WoW.

Raids = WoW.

Battlegrounds = WoW.

Stylized cartoony graphics = WoW.

Dumbed down gameplay = WoW.

How often do you get new skills? Ask your gametesting buddies, since you're not in but know that I'm wrong. lol

I can go on but I believe that we've reached the limit of the stuff not covered by the NDA.

As far as your GW2 comment, unless you were in beta, you can't even comment on the game as we are only now seeing actual gameplay. And you know what? Combat in GW2 looks much more exciting and smoother than in TOR judging by videos alone.