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Star Wars: The Old Republic General Article: PAX Reveal
MMORPG.com's Carolyn Koh was at this past weekend's Penny Arcade Expo and submits this report on Bioware Austin's Star Wars: The Old Republic, which was on display at the event.
By Carolyn Koh on September 08, 2009
LucasArts and Bioware showed a live demo of Star Wars: The Old Republic at Penny Arcade Expo in Seattle both Saturday and Sunday, with slight variations on their demonstration each day. They showed cinematic trailers, some in-game footage as well as a live-demo of the game play. All four classes revealed thus far were shown to fans, including a demo of the female Bounty Hunter's voice effects.
They pulled a joke on Saturday, announcing a big reveal then flashing up "Darth Binks" to stunned silence and a smattering of laughter. "I think we failed on humor," said Bioware Producer, Jake Neri. "Wait, what did you think?" asked Lucas Arts Public Relations Manager, Adam Kahn. Well, I was laughing so hard, I forgot to take a picture of the "reveal." Darth Binks was not shown again on Sunday, but from my reaction and the bits of laughter they had heard from the crowd, they thought the joke a success. Yes, with this many dedicated Star Wars fans, canon humor is a little tough.
So far, Bioware has revealed four of the classes that will appear in Star Wars: The Old Republic, two from each of the game's factions. The Sith Imperial classes are: the Sith Warrior and the Bounty Hunter. The Republic classes are: the Republic Trooper and Smuggler. The Republic Trooper, which was shown on Sunday, is a ranged DPS and elite soldier class. The ranged classes will also have close melee capabilities such as the Bounty Hunter's flame thrower and the Smuggler's dirty fighting. We can surmise that the melee classes will have some ranged capabilities, and we know, at least from the movies, of the Sith Warrior's force lightning. We can also surmise that the fifth of the Republic classes will be Jedi Knight and also that another ranged class is in the works for the Imperial side to balance out the Republic Trooper. In casual conversations with developers, I have heard that there are eight classes in the works.
There will not be too much focus on non-combat classes, but there will be enough secondary game play, such as crafting and trading, to round out the content. "We are still trying to nail down the core of the game," said Jake, "and although we are working hard on all aspects of the game, you can appreciate we don't want to talk too much about them."
All the usual social aspects in an MMO are being developed and will be introduced to fans when the time is right. "There isn't a be-all / end-all handbook available on MMO design," said Neri. "And we don't want to build up expectations of aspects of the game that we ourselves haven't nailed down."
Bioware and LucasArts are firm on this aspect. They will not speak of things that still might change, such as informing players that X number of planets and Y number of classes will be available at launch, only to have to pull the number back. Developers always have the desire to put all this fantastic content into their game and in their excitement, they want to tell their fans about it prematurely. This is the path that Bioware has decided they will not go down. Information will only be revealed when the information is firm. Take the reveal of Coruscant as the third planet in SW:ToR, and even the Sith Warrior as examples. Previously, we were left guessing as to whether or not the iconic world would appear in game and whether Jedi and Sith would be class choices, or a state that players would advance to.
;)
Bioware's game design philosophy is to find the fun early. Get the prototypes going so they can play and iterate on it. "We play it, gather the feedback, iterate, get outside play focus groups in, play, gather the feedback, iterate," said Neri. Rinse and repeat. For the classes, they plan to deliver on Fan expectation. For example, the Sith Warrior is based on the archetype from the movies. They use a force choke and they are more of a heavy melee character, based particularly on Darth Vader. The Bounty Hunter on Bobba Fett, and the Smuggler on Han Solo.
"Do you think the game will end up heavy in Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors?" I asked.
"We are very aware and challenged by the issue," Neri replied. "Our challenge is to make each one of our classes unique, to make each one fun to play, and to make them balanced against each other."
He intimated that much of the fine-tuning would really occur only when they are in beta. Players have very different play styles and although some may be lured at first by the glamor of the Jedi Knight, the player class population will balance out. At this stage of the game, Bioware is showing off the key differentiating features of TOR, the full voicing of the game and the story focus. There is nothing more to do but to talk about the game and wait, and here is a hint. Participate on their forums. They do want feedback.
Just hope the city is seamless and there isn't tons of loading screens like AoC or EQ2.
Will we get to see the Darth Binks pic?
Wow Coruscant! I love that! :D
The line that gets me is trying to make sure all the classes are balanced against one another. The problem is as soon as that happens the game isn't true to the lore of Star Wars. If you're a Jedi or a Sith and you get taken down by a smuggler or bounty hunter, well you are the worst Jedi/Sith to ever have lived. Both the Jedis and Siths have skills far beyond the normal people that it just doesn't make any sense for them to be balanced against one another.
That sums up the major flaw in the design of this whole game. "We're going to let people play Jedis and Siths." Oh that's cool are there going to be other choices "Yes there will be many other classes that can be played." Oh well why wouldn't everyone just play Jedi and Sith, they're the most interesting and by far the most powerful. "Well we're going to make all the class types balanced against one another so that they can stand toe to toe." Um what?
Yes Hans Solo is an interesting character and fun to think about, but in case you missed it he got abused by every type of character in Star Wars. He didn't win fights he had to run from fights and use his smuggling abilities to get away, hide, and stay alive. He didn't go up to Darth Vadar and pistol whip him.
People can either sit and watch the canon movies, or they can bend a little and play the game. When something is taken from one medium and introduced into another, things will have to conform to the new medium's requirements and limitations. One can either accept that bit of reality, or one can go cry under his/her bed. Either way, the reality of those limits and requirements is not going to change anytime soon.
True but if you remember most if not all Jedis were executed by clone troopers in the third movie. Yes I didn't like the first 3 movies very much either
True but if you remember most if not all Jedis were executed by clone troopers in the third movie. Yes I didn't like the first 3 movies very much either
Yes but not one on one, it was huge ratios of probably 50+ to 1. Even 3-4 troopers to 1 Jedi would have no chance of defeating the Jedi. And the problem becomes they want this game to be balanced where every class can stand toe to toe. Really when it's 1 on 1 the only class that has the chance of defeating a Jedi or a Sith is the opposite of one another.
Yes but not one on one, it was huge ratios of probably 50+ to 1. Even 3-4 troopers to 1 Jedi would have no chance of defeating the Jedi. And the problem becomes they want this game to be balanced where every class can stand toe to toe. Really when it's 1 on 1 the only class that has the chance of defeating a Jedi or a Sith is the opposite of one another.
I understand your point. I think the way they are trying to make the game is that of heroes vs heroes. When a player makes a new character, they aren't(for example) just any bounty hunter, but Jango Fett. Look how much trouble Jango gave to Obi Wan. It was a long drawn out fight with two tough opponents. I think this is what they will capture. Now, as for NPCs, all of the players should get that feel of being heroic - especially the trash mobs.
Honestly, it's the only way, IMHO, they can accomplish a Star Wars MMO. The only other way that worked was Pre-NGE/CU SWG. Unfortunately, that had it's own issues(though it was fun).
So, in summary, PC's are uber heroes, and NPCs(outside of named/bosses) should be weaker and help one feel like a tough guy. That's what I got from it all thus far.
edit* as far as Han Solo goes, mind you the books/movies were scripted in such a way as to not allow for the untimely demise of it's characters. Even Darth Vader could have been hypothetically shot in the back by Han while he was fighting Obi wan. It's not like his back was blaster proof. Therefore, I'd expect smugglers and other such classes to, well, fight dirty like smugglers do! :D
Yes but not one on one, it was huge ratios of probably 50+ to 1. Even 3-4 troopers to 1 Jedi would have no chance of defeating the Jedi. And the problem becomes they want this game to be balanced where every class can stand toe to toe. Really when it's 1 on 1 the only class that has the chance of defeating a Jedi or a Sith is the opposite of one another.
This IMO is where people get way to critical about a game. I understand in the lore and/or movies that the jedi and sith are very powerful. But to do the same in an mmo would make anyone who did NOT play a sith or a jedi feel as if there of no use or pointless in being that class, we all mite as well play jedi and sith. To make games Aspecially MMO's...and in the starwars UNi your going to have to stretch/bend things a tad. Honestly if they get the flavor and the feel of the star wars uni down I could care less about the jedi or sith technically being the more powerful. The whole point is being able to play in the SW Uni that we know and love.
You should stick with movies and avoid discussing video games as you have a major lack of understanding of the latter.
First off, in any MMO the class/skill line with the most power instantly becomes the fotm choice of the multitudes. This game will have enough problems with too many players choosing jedi's to start with let alone making them more powerful than the other classes.
I hope Bioware chooses the Blizzard path and takes their time with this game. If they do it could actually give Blizzard a run for their money.
You should stick with movies and avoid discussing video games as you have a major lack of understanding of the latter.
First off, in any MMO the class/skill line with the most power instantly becomes the fotm choice of the multitudes. This game will have enough problems with too many players choosing jedi's to start with let alone making them more powerful than the other classes.
I hope Bioware chooses the Blizzard path and takes their time with this game. If they do it could actually give Blizzard a run for their money.
You sir should stick with school until you can get a grasp on reading comprehension.
My point is that they went into this with a major design flaw. Instead of going into it with trying to figure out how to make a balanced product they said "People love Jedis and Siths lets do that!!!" And then as the process went along it finally dawned on their thick skulls that clearly everyone would just play a Jedi or a Sith. So now they are destroying the lore in order to balance other random classes to make them useful.
Yes every game needs balanced classes. These guys completly ignored that going into it and are now going to do ridiculous things to make what could never be balanced, balanced. It shouldn't of come to this, they should of thought it out in the first place.
It would be like taking one of the super hero games and saying "Hey people like Superman because as long as there isn't one extremely rare object around he is completly unstoppable and can't be hurt at all, let's allow players to be invulnerable and the strongest thing in the game." They don't allow that because it is unbalanced. And they certainly don't add it in and then try to make all other classes able to stand toe to toe with that build. It would be stupid.
The way they are doing this is the only way that it can work while being fair and competitive for everyone. SWG proved that an alpha class does not work and in fact has no place in an MMORPG. As soon as you have one class that dominates all others, everyone will try to become that class and those who fail will feel as though they cannot compete and will quit shortly after.
While this concept might be a bit of a departure from Star Wars lore, I think people tend to forget that the Jedi/Sith were not the only heroes/villains in the movies and books. There were lots of other powerful characters that could at least give the force users a challenge. One need only remember the epic battle between Jango Fett and Obi Wan to know that Jedis don't always win. If memory serves, Obi Wan barely survived while Jango flew away. I think that means he won the fight...
www.youtube.com/watch
From my friend's cell phone:
Darth Binks for your viewing pleasure.
Cheers!
Carolyn
"They pulled a joke on Saturday, announcing a big reveal then flashing up "Darth Binks" to stunned silence and a smattering of laughter. "I think we failed on humor," said Bioware Producer, Jake Neri. "Wait, what did you think?" asked Lucas Arts Public Relations Manager, Adam Kahn. Well, I was laughing so hard, I forgot to take a picture of the "reveal." Darth Binks was not shown again on Sunday, but from my reaction and the bits of laughter they had heard from the crowd, they thought the joke a success. Yes, with this many dedicated Star Wars fans, canon humor is a little tough."
I don't think that canon humor is tough at all. There was a time that I would have laughed at such a thing. Considering what MMO game companies do today that makes most people say or think "WTF" and that Bioware is known for not revealing much if any information about their games, it doesn't surprise me at all that the vast majority of that audience was silent. They thought it was a serious revel and obviously didn't approve.
If Bioware maintains to skimp on information releases (which is their modus operandi), giving a good feel for what is actual information, then they should probably back off trying such humor. By such humor I mean grabbing polarizing figures such as Jar Jar and making such a joke. I doubt much of the audience for this game likes Jar Jar, which would give base to the reaction they experienced.
"There will not be too much focus on non-combat classes, but there will be enough secondary game play, such as crafting and trading, to round out the content."
Well, that's disheartening to hear. Not surprising, though.
"Participate on their forums. They do want feedback."
I can't imagine on what or why. It sounds like they've nailed the voice-over thing and the story elements. Any talk about the "secondary" game-play is no doubt met by a flood of flame posts decrying the person as wanting "SWG2" if they suggest something with any element of depth. Crafting and housing are prime examples, and as Bioware isn't talking about them, well. *shrug*
This is exactly correct, and what the developers are using as a basis of balance. As most of the movies follow the jedi as being the main focus of the stories you see very little in knowing exactly how capable the best of the best of the other "classes" can perform.
Jango is a good example. As the developers said the best bounty hunter could take on a jedi and defeat one. The same could probably be said about the best of any class. And if balance is done correctly, when in combat 1 on 1 with a bounty hunter, if you don't know how to play your jedi very well.. then you shouldn't win that battle either ... should you?
The Jedi had no problems taking on 100+ droid troopers and tanks.
The Jedi easily being killed by the clone troopers was a "this is how happened because we say so" moment.
In movies the winner is not decided by who is more powerful the winner is decided by the writer.
So lore is quite useless as an argument as to why Jedi and Bounty Hunters should not be equal in a video game.
"Destroying the lore"?
My understanding is that the Old Republic is set back in time far enough from the "official canon" as to allow Bioware to create lore without disrupting the canon.
"To balance random classes"?
And as others have pointed out, the Jedi and Sith highlighted in the movies and books and such are the cream of the crop -- it's very conceivable and plausable that not all Jedi and Sith are automatically master-level-able-to-beat-down-an-experienced-trooper/warrior-with-a-withering-look. And why wouldn't a master Jedi have a tough time against a highly experienced bounty hunter? Not every Jedi or Sith is going to be the end-all-be-all in power or ability.
"Destroying the lore"?
My understanding is that the Old Republic is set back in time far enough from the "official canon" as to allow Bioware to create lore without disrupting the canon.
"To balance random classes"?
And as others have pointed out, the Jedi and Sith highlighted in the movies and books and such are the cream of the crop -- it's very conceivable and plausable that not all Jedi and Sith are automatically master-level-able-to-beat-down-an-experienced-trooper/warrior-with-a-withering-look. And why wouldn't a master Jedi have a tough time against a highly experienced bounty hunter? Not every Jedi or Sith is going to be the end-all-be-all in power or ability.
It's simple really, the Jedi and Sith have powers that others can't compete with. Such as being able to see into the future, which allows them to know where the enemy is going to shoot or move.
I would bet DC universe isn't going to allow people to be invulnerable like Superman. Because the balance issue would be ridiculous and result it stupid things being done.
If you made a game of angels vs demons you wouldn't say "Hey people want to be god and the devil let's let them, oh wait everyone would be god and the devil, let's just balance up the angels and demons to be able to stand toe to toe with god and the devil." Because that would be stupid.
It's the reason why Star Wars MMOs have always been a dumb idea. Because the iconic parts of Star Wars that everyone wants to be are also the most unbalancing for an MMO. For a single player it's great, the guy is an up and coming Jedi or Sith and so he destroys increasingly difficult mobs with his cool powers. But in an MMO it is a bad idea. Everyone played SWG with the same goal, become the uber powerful Jedi. And once it was made easier, everyone was running around as a Jedi.
It's the reason why players in LotRO aren't allowed to make Gandalf like characters, it would be too unbalancing for the players and then everyone would want that power.
The only real thing to do is have everyone be a Jedi/Sith or have no one be one and they are features in the story line.
But to each their own opinion and I'm sure there will be some who enjoy this game.
"Destroying the lore"?
My understanding is that the Old Republic is set back in time far enough from the "official canon" as to allow Bioware to create lore without disrupting the canon.
"To balance random classes"?
And as others have pointed out, the Jedi and Sith highlighted in the movies and books and such are the cream of the crop -- it's very conceivable and plausable that not all Jedi and Sith are automatically master-level-able-to-beat-down-an-experienced-trooper/warrior-with-a-withering-look. And why wouldn't a master Jedi have a tough time against a highly experienced bounty hunter? Not every Jedi or Sith is going to be the end-all-be-all in power or ability.
In episode 2 I believe, many jedi fell in the stadium scene before the republic showed up to bail them out with the clone troopers. Those jedi didn't look that tough. They were dying left and right by federation robot troopers. Luke or Obi Wan could have wiped the floor versus 3 of these guys. In fact Jango would have eaten one of them alive. Clearly the iconic top tiered jedi/masters were the exception, not the rule.
if your worried about Trooper vs Jedi i only have 2 things to say. One was mention in hero vs hero (obi wan vs Boba/Jengo Fett)
The other is level.
If a experience (read lvl 20) Trooper were to face a novice (read lvl 5) Jedi who do you think would win?
Keen observation Khal, and it shows exactly the fact that BioWare/LEC don't really know their audience. I mean C'mon, this was PAX. It's a Con. It's a place for hard cores to gather. These are the people who know about the NGE have seen these kind of blunders in other MMOs that would make them believe that maybe yes, perhaps LEC/BioWare have actually put a Gungan Sith Lord in the game because frankly, stuff like this doesn't surprise people anymore (SWG Cupid Ewoks anyone?). They don't TRUST LucasArts. For LEC not to be sensitive to that is not really surprising, but shows bad judgement on their part.
True enough, the average SW fan (non-Con going, Cosplay wearing) might think this is funny, as they are perhaps a bit more trusting of the IP holder.
Keen observation Khal, and it shows exactly the fact that BioWare/LEC don't really know their audience. I mean C'mon, this was PAX. It's a Con. It's a place for hard cores to gather. These are the people who know about the NGE have seen these kind of blunders in other MMOs that would make them believe that maybe yes, perhaps LEC/BioWare have actually put a Gungan Sith Lord in the game because frankly, stuff like this doesn't surprise people anymore (SWG Cupid Ewoks anyone?). They don't TRUST LucasArts. For LEC not to be sensitive to that is not really surprising, but shows bad judgement on their part.
True enough, the average SW fan (non-Con going, Cosplay wearing) might think this is funny, as they are perhaps a bit more trusting of the IP holder.
To be fair i TOTALLY want to play Gungan Sith Lord (and a Gorn Federation MEdical Officier in ST:O)
To be fair i TOTALLY want to play Gungan Sith Lord (and a Gorn Federation MEdical Officier in ST:O)
Off Topic but I can't resist... - What about Ferenghi Science Officer in ST:O? :P
Really should have stuck with the Superman analogy since the devil was actually an angel of God before he believed his power was just as great as Gods. Then what about guardian angels or warrior angels like Gabriel and Micheal. They posses the same powers the devil had and he thought he could give God a run for his money so in game balance why couldn't they? Also the origional demons are the 1/3 of the angels that sided with the devil so they too would have similar powers. Sorry couldn't resist a little theology today. I'd try out your angels vs demons MMO.
Some people just need to grow up.
Its a game. I know there are people out there who take the lore of a product far to seriously but calm down.
If an apprentice jedi went against a veteran bounty hunter or smuggler, the advantage will be in the corner of who has the most experience.
The same goes for the jedi. But if both were apprentices in their class, and this goes for sw lore. It could go either way, the jedi doesnt fully understand his or her powers, and well the smuggler ect just needs to keep a distance a shoot really and use their skills and weapons. Anything can happen.
At the end of the day, bioware have spent alot of years working on star wars universe, and who knows when beta comes around things maybe cleared up and fixed so for now we cannot do anything so stop bickering.
A few Jedi (the Masters) could take on that much, most couldn't. Even the ones that could didn't take such a challenge lightly. Jedi did have special powers, but they also trained to fight a certain way. Good bounty hunters like Jango and Boba could take out Jedi because they trained on a fighting style that could counter or subvert the style of the Jedi. A good example of that in one of the book series is Jaina Solo being trained by Boba Fett to take down her brother, because she couldn't compete with her brother with the usual Force tactics.
To be fair i TOTALLY want to play Gungan Sith Lord (and a Gorn Federation MEdical Officier in ST:O)
Off Topic but I can't resist... - What about Ferenghi Science Officer in ST:O? :P
I was thinking Ferengi Cheif of Security, and Oriin Science Officier.
Maybe a Andorian Science Offcier or navigator?
In episode 2 I believe, many jedi fell in the stadium scene before the republic showed up to bail them out with the clone troopers. Those jedi didn't look that tough. They were dying left and right by federation robot troopers. Luke or Obi Wan could have wiped the floor versus 3 of these guys. In fact Jango would have eaten one of them alive. Clearly the iconic top tiered jedi/masters were the exception, not the rule.
This. Most Jedi/Sith/force users weren't anywhere near as powerful as the top end guys, like Vader, Luke or Yoda. So its quite possible for someone with the skills and experience of a Jango Fett to defeat the average Jedi or Sith.
Funny that you mention that, because there ARE in fact, instances were the Jedi have fallen to "just 'ole regular smugglers"/bounty hunters"
In fact, there's a comic in which Bobba Fett manages to wield a lightsaber and fights off Vader and hold his grown very well. Darth Grievous is just a cybernetic human (non-Jedi) and was able to kill many SKILLED Jedi, so don't go knocking the "normies" saying they can't fight off Jedi, when in reality, there are many instances when they have.
seeing into the future isnt the cooles, the Florwalking(past and future) that Jasion(sory for spelling) solo dos is way cooler, and only a handful know of this skill, (inkluding Ben skywalker). but then a gen, The mandalorian armor is so strong it can whitstant the blow from a light saber.
if you got problems Read upp on the damn lore, not just the movies, This game isnt based on them alone, But the whole of the Universe, if you do that, you will se that Jedi die all the time, by the hands of even lesser ppl, ( Dark Nest enyone?) iven coruptet by insekts...............
And to point out a jedi can be killed by enything, by enyone. so Whats the problem in balansing?
I totally agree with you.
However, I am a seasoned roleplayer, so if I end up playing this I can cope in my own way. For example; if I'm playing a Jedi, and as a player I know there are bounty hunters and smugglers out there who stand an average or better chance of beating me in a fight, then my Jedi will be a wheezing, alcoholic degenerate. Blind drunk most of the time infact, and barely able to grip his lightsabre for more than a few seconds before fumbling it as he slips in a puddle of his own vomit. THAT would not only put him on an even pegging with the other lesser classes, but make him more fun to play to boot.
Funny that you mention that, because there ARE in fact, instances were the Jedi have fallen to "just 'ole regular smugglers"/bounty hunters"
In fact, there's a comic in which Bobba Fett manages to wield a lightsaber and fights off Vader and hold his grown very well. Darth Grievous is just a cybernetic human (non-Jedi) and was able to kill many SKILLED Jedi, so don't go knocking the "normies" saying they can't fight off Jedi, when in reality, there are many instances when they have.
Lest we also not forget you see a few times in the movies Jedi running from Droidekas...
As far as I'm concerned you guys are all Luke from episode 4, in which case I"ll be blowing you to smitherines left and right with my bounty hunter.
Honestly, yes, Jedi and Sith shouldn't be completely balanced with the other random classes. Just not WAY higher than those classes. In the books and movies alike, it usually came down to who made the mistake first in a fight. THAT should be the way it should go down more than anything. If you know your class, and know how to fight against the other various classes, then as long as you don't make the mistake first, you should have a chance.
The problem (IMO) is when companies try to balance out classes to compensate for those players that don't know how to play their selected class properly.
It's not about gimping the Jedi/Sith to balance them to the other classes. It's about giving the other classes more. Give the Bounty Hunter, Trooper and Smuggler all kinds of flame throwers and jet packs and sleep darts and stun guns and grenades. Jedi only use lightsabres. Besides the developer giving Jedi/Sith specific ways to use the Force all they have is their lightsabre.
Why does it feel like the same mistakes made in SWG will be made. You cant put facts of movies in to a game and pretend to make them work out flawlesly.
Range classes vs melle classes is what im seeing. Make the math, a player shooting from range will have an easyer time playing the game like 100% of the times and the melle class will have trouble shasing players that dont stop moving, not to mention th facts that the Saber animations are gonnabe fuckt up cuz its hard to make animations of melle combats in stances wile theplayer is actually moving.....Look at SWG!!!
I find your lack of faith disturbing....
world of star wars